I am shooting Sitka Spruce and Doug fir and I am just trying Aluminum for low maintenance (compared to wood) which perform great on the walk through course. I want to spend time shooting arrows not fixing them so I would like to give Carbon a try too, for everyday shooting on the walk through.
I have a Howard Hill 68" Big Five that pulls 48# at 28". My draw is 28".
Would HH shooters please post your stats on you HH and the Carbon arrow that performs the BEST for you.
Thanks
Dave
Seattle
I don't shoot a HH anymore but i do still shoot a longbow.I'm shooting Arrow Dynamic lite's out of my 50# tomahawk longbow and they shoot great.They have a wide spine range of 35# to 55# and you can just cut to your length and shoot.
Personally, I have never been able to get carbons to fly right from my Hills. There is also the problem with carbons being somewhat lighter than wood, especially in the lower poundage arrows. That being said, I have seen plenty of people at 3-D shoots using them with perfect flight. I never invested the time to tweak them with heavier points, internal weights, and all the other things to get them to fly right. I grab every Micro Flite of the correct spine that I can though. Bill
Isn't that one of the ten commandments:Thy shall not use anything but wood with a Hill. :laughing: :laughing:
Oooooh Boooooy! Here it comes! I had a thread similar to this some time back so, take what ever comes with a grain of salt. :D :thumbsup:
GingivitisKahn should be along. I believe he shoots carbons and they fly real well for him.
QuoteOriginally posted by lpcjon2:
Isn't that one of the ten commandments:Thy shall not use anything but wood with a Hill. :laughing: :laughing:
Yeah, I am in this group as well. I just got thru shooting carbons and woodies out of my Hill today. Properly spined woodies just fly great out of a hill. Every time I shot a carbon it was no better.
Now, on other bows, carbons make a big difference to me. But for Hills, I'd vote woodies all the way.
Matt
MFX s fly well with my Redman. Woodies properly spined were no different.
Redman 68" 53# @28. my draw length is 29"
mfx :thumbsup:
I shoot CX Heritage 90's out of my HH Half Breed 58#@28 drawn to 27",they are 29" with custom fitted 50 gr. brass insert(42 grs. now)and 175 gr. point with a weight of around 540 grs. and AD Trad Lites at 30" with a 175 gr. point,they are 515 grs.. These both fly great out of my Howard Hill.
From a 52@27 Hill I shot 35/55 gold tips with 300 grains in the nose. They shot good.RC
I have trouble with carbons and my Hills because I often use a back quiver and dislike overly long arrows with my 27" draw length. It makes them hard to get out of the quiver etc .
I have had luck with Gold Tips and Arrow Dynamics though .
I mainly use wood and currently have a secret love affair with 2016's ...
However ... carbons will fly well with any bow when tuned properly .
fyi ... i used Stu Millers calculator and it was right on the money .
66" Halfbreed 60# @ 28" I usually shoot wood but I tried some of my ICS Hunter Carbon arrows I have for another bow and they flew like darts, 29.5" 100gr brass insert and 150gr point.
The earthquake was in Pakistan. Hap
to give carbon arrows a fair shake, I shot them the same length I shot my woodies...27 - 27 1/4 back of point. I did have to adjust the tip weight a little to get the spine correct, but that's all. It is one of my pet peeves to see guys shoot arrows that are 2 - 4 inches too long for their draw because they think that is the only way to tune arrow flight.
When was the last time you saw an Olympic archer shooting arrows wayyy longer than their draw? They draw right to the head...no wasted arrow length. It is very doable with a longbow as well. Also, this keeps the arrow length easy to withdraw from a backquiver....Even though I shoot wood exclusively now, I used to shoot aluminum years ago, and tried carbons and never had to shoot overlength arrows.
Arrow Dynamics lite out of my Cheetah with 235 grains up front. Great flight!!
Joe
Nate , i was doing this a fair while back and did not have access to some of the lower spined carbnons available now.
Also , once I had used heavier head weights to get them to fly ok they were to heavy in weight compared to my firs and cedars that are around 500-520gns at my 52# draw . They tended to weight in at 620gns [ grizzlystix] or so ... roving ain't no fun for me with such heavy arrows !
If I ever get the desire to use Carbons again some of the newer 35-55 spines sound just right .
Ben,
I never tried the grizzlysticks, just the gold tips or arrow dynamics. I did have to experiment with different spines, as I don't think they all shoot the same depending on manufacturer. But I finetuned them with tipweight, just like I do my woodies....
Nate ,
which arrow dynamics did you use ?
I had maybe up a spine too high to cut short but they were a great arrow nonetheless ?
What tip weight approx did you end up using ?
I can't get carbons to fly right and consistently either. I stick w wood and a little aluminum
Ben, I don't remember. I do remember that I never had to put any steel or other adapters up front, just heavier heads. I've been a woodie person all my life, but shot alums for several years to see what was so great about them back in the 80s....lol. I shot the soda straw carbons when they first came out and they shot well at 27", but I disliked the feel of the tiny shaft. I last shot carbons about 5 or 6 years ago and I think they've changed their spine availablities somewhat since then. As long as trees are grown, I'll be a woodie shooter...but I don't like to form opinions on tackle without giving it a fair, personal trial.
I'm shooting a HH Halfbreed 60@29 and 66" long. Carbon Express Heritage 250s work pretty well with it as do GrizzlyStick Alaskans.
QuoteOriginally posted by Wannabe1:
GingivitisKahn should be along. I believe he shoots carbons and they fly real well for him.
Well - they don't fly any worse for me than anything else. :D Hehe.
In my Hill's, I only like to shoot wood. I really enjoy making them, using the spine tester, tapering staining, fletching etc. It's really relaxing to make them.
Once I tried carbons, I tried all different lengths, point weights and could not get them to fly as good as wood. I just decided to K.I.S.
Darren
In my Hill's, I only like to shoot wood. I really enjoy making them, using the spine tester, tapering staining, fletching etc. It's really relaxing to make them.
Once I tried carbons, I tried all different lengths, point weights and could not get them to fly as good as wood. I just decided to K.I.S.
Darren
Thanks everyone,
So it seems that Carbons are possible with HH. I am going to try the Beman ICS Bowhunter Arrow Shafts which are very reasonably priced @ $54.99 for a dozen..... They get great reviews too.
Will let you know how they work out. I still plan to hunt with my wood arrows and shoot wood at the 3D comps, but everyday practice in the walk through(s) and stump shooting I plan to use either carbon or aluminum. Whichever proves the best economy and compromise between toughness and consistency.
My latest wood arrow that I plan to craft is going to be from Madrone. So I have not given up on wood by any means.
Thanks
Dave
I like gold tip 5575 add 260 gr up front and they shoot great and are hard to break.Buy them from Big Jim 43.00 for 12
I shoot GT 55-75's out of my 57#@27" Tembo, cut to 28.5, 100 grain brass insert and 260 grain point. Total weight 640 grains. I also use a 1 1/2 inch 2216 aluminum sleeve on the front - makes a very tough arrow. Woods shoot good, too, but the carbons are so easy to make, consistent and almost indestructable. I like Big Jim's blemishes too.
OK, You convinced me Big Jim's it is.
Thanks for the hot tip.
Dave
I shoot Arrow Dynamics Hammerhead Heavyweights out of my 70# @ 28" Wesley Special, they fly awesome! :thumbsup:
i just don't get it.
i shoot every kinda shaft material out there, from woodies to carbons, in all manner of stickbows from hill to moab. they all work just fine, once i figured put what works and what doesn't work, for me.
it never ceases to amaze me all the hubbub over certain arrow shaft materials being 'difficult to tune'. i heard that a long time ago about carbons. i bought a buncha different spine shafts. didn't take long to realize the incredibly wide dynamic spine range of graphite, and in short order i found some shafts that bare tested quite nicely. but i hadda to the legwork and in some cases go against some of the carbon arrow dogma rhetoric one finds too often.
i'm no genius or rocket scientist by a long shot, and it didn't take much to figure out what arrows work best for me, and what don't.
but it does take time and effort to figure it all out, and no one can find the correct answers but me, 'cause i'm the one shooting the arrows outta my bows, not you or them.
the key is in getting a 'test kit' of sorts, and spending the time to figure out what works best for your bow(s) and you. do this bare shaft, you don't even hafta know how to fletch (though you ALL should learn!).
Rob,
What Carbon do you shoot with your Hill bow(s) at the moment? From your experience did you find any peculiarities (compared to wood) with getting Carbons to fly well from your bows?
I am going to try to add some weight up front on the Carbons to get the total weight to match my wood and aluminum shafts. Do you see any issues with this based on your experiences? Considering your statement about the wide dynamic range, I am assuming this should be just fine.
I use the paper method for tuning and it seems to work great.
QuoteOriginally posted by Davesea:
Rob,
What Carbon do you shoot with your Hill bow(s) at the moment?
i get sideways glances every time i say what works for me, but here goes (remember, you asked) ...
beman 500 ics bowhunter, 29.25" to the back of the insert, 100gr brass insert, 125gr steel adapter, 125gr woodsman, total arrow weight is 585gr, foc is 29%, 10.6gpp. vario chopped lo-pro banana fletches, 4" 4-fletch, 75x105.
mohawk t/d longbow, 62", 55.4# @ 29". the arrow plate *leather* is just about 1/8" proud of the bow's center (i modded the arrow shelf wood closer to center, about 1/16"). 8 strand bcy dyneema bowstring.
From your experience did you find any peculiarities (compared to wood) with getting Carbons to fly well from your bows?
yes. most are just too stiff for me. i mean, if you look at the beman (or any other chart or miller spreadsheet), a 29" 500 spine should NOT work with 55# of push. but it do. for me.
I am going to try to add some weight up front on the Carbons to get the total weight to match my wood and aluminum shafts. Do you see any issues with this based on your experiences? Considering your statement about the wide dynamic range, I am assuming this should be just fine.
imo "we are all experiments of one". don't listen to anyone, including me, and do yer own testing.
I use the paper method for tuning and it seems to work great.
i use paper to write on. ;)
Rob,
Thanks. As you say, I will do my own testing.
I was thinking about taking the leather off my shelf to move the arrow closer to center. I might try it.
I have a Vario chopper too. Really like it. It is very nice bit of kit.
Ya the paper method is pretty objective and I can do it in my garage....
i've replaced the leather arrow plate on a few bows with teflon tape, and noticed a difference in arrow flight - most went weaker, as expected.
i used carbons with a lotta hill bows, the last 2 were a big 5 and wesley, both about the same holding weight as the 'hawk. once again, using the same carbons, i hadda do some minor tweaks to get good arrow flight, but it wasn't a big deal.
right now i'm testing out gt hunter expedition 55/75 (400) shafts. they're a bit heavier gpi, and certainly stiffer than the ics 500's, but they fly just fine outta the mohawk, too. go figure. maybe because i use a LOT of front end weight, from 350 nearly 400 grains. i dunno for sure. don't care either. ;)
Rob,
My plan is to have my everyday practice arrows for the local walk through (has lots of long shots) to be around 500grains. 29" BOP.
I am using Sitka Spruce at 500 grains, Legacy 2018 at 500 grains and I plan to try the GT Traditional 5575 9.3 GPI With a 125g screw in point with a 50 grain insert this gets me to 485 close enough.
For hunting I have Sureshaft parallel shafts that weigh in at 600 grains with a 125 g head.
I haven't tested the EFOC theory... yet...
OK, So I fletched up some GT 5575s. They are a little stiff for my bow but seem to fly pretty well. Paper tuning showed they were on the stiff side and I am pretty sure 3555 would show they are not stiff enough. I find that with the Aluminum too, that I am in between the two stiffness (2016 and 2018). So I opt for the stiffer and but more weight up front.
Anyway the 5575 cut to 29" fly nicely and seem pretty tough. My first impression is that the Carbon are not as forgiving as the wood arrows? Techniques has to be perfect for them to fly perfect? Anyone else notice this.
Still need to shoot more but that is my first impression.
Blemished shafts are great deal. Thanks again for the tip.
i found the 55/75 gt trads (wood grain simulation) a tad too heavy and stiff. regular 55/75 gt hunter expedition's are a bit lighter, less stiff due to no wood grain wrap, and fly real nice at 29.5" and 55#'s of push. it do help to have 350gr up front, though. :) it's all a game of trial and experimentation ... and some error. ;)
Interesting that a wrap makes a noticeable difference....
CX Heritage 90's will work very well for you with 125 pts.
OK, dumb question, but not my first....The only carbons I have messed with are GT Trads. I still don't get the various designations like, Heritage 90s, 250s, 500s, etc. Seems to be a lot like rifle calibers--little rhyme or reason behind it. So how does a 90 differ from a 400 or 500. BTW, I realize the 500, etc. refers to deflection (I think) but what about CX Heritage 90s....what do they correspond to? That's probably not a reference to deflection, right? Guess my brain is getting to old for all the new fangled stuff. :confused:
QuoteOriginally posted by David Mitchell:
OK, dumb question, but not my first....The only carbons I have messed with are GT Trads. I still don't get the various designations like, Heritage 90s, 250s, 500s, etc. Seems to be a lot like rifle calibers--little rhyme or reason behind it. So how does a 90 differ from a 400 or 500. BTW, I realize the 500, etc. refers to deflection (I think) but what about CX Heritage 90s....what do they correspond to? That's probably not a reference to deflection, right? Guess my brain is getting to old for all the new fangled stuff. :confused:
yes, spine. 400 = .400" spine deflection on 26" centers with a 2# weight.
carbons have very different dynamic spines than alums or woods - they're inherently stiffer. ever wonder why you see a gt 400 with a spine range of 55/75#'s, or the stiffness rating on all the other carbons out there in graphite-land???
okay, kudos Rob, but all "that monkeying" around is what drove me NUTS and led me back to wood and aluminum. It really takes potentially a lot of different shafts, a cutter, different point weights/inserts/etc to finally get one to fly good, when wood takes a couple minutes to find one that flies GREAT. Just my opinion...I just wish I had the time to find that magic carbon arrow that is heavy enough and will fly as good as my woodies..
carbon arrows basically puts us back to the post this isn't "popular mechanics"
QuoteOriginally posted by Overspined:
okay, kudos Rob, but all "that monkeying" around is what drove me NUTS and led me back to wood and aluminum. It really takes potentially a lot of different shafts, a cutter, different point weights/inserts/etc to finally get one to fly good, when wood takes a couple minutes to find one that flies GREAT. Just my opinion...I just wish I had the time to find that magic carbon arrow that is heavy enough and will fly as good as my woodies..
i where yer coming from, been there, too. just go to a weaker carbon, add weight up front, and you'll see they'll fly just fine for ya if you let them, promise.
QuoteOriginally posted by Overspined:
carbon arrows basically puts us back to the post this isn't "popular mechanics"
naw, carbons are the staff, er, shaft of life for stick bows. ain't nothing too high techie or weird about them, they're as trad as trad can be. lemme tell ya, most all of those old and long gone trad heroes of ours would be shootin' carbons, too. :thumbsup:
If I had access to a cut off saw and the space to use one , I would most assuredly be using carbons to compliment my growing collection of cedars, fir and spruce .
I love my woodies and still use 2016's regularly but a set of carbons are a super tough arrow for me as i stump shoot / rove more than anything else .
They are also heaps quieter in a back quiver than alloys .
I might get me some of these Carbon express 90's or GT 35/55 and see what I can do with 300gns up front on 'em.
A nice new set for my Robin Hood maybe ...
just need a dremel w/carbide cutoff wheel and a bit of 120 grit sandpaper to true up a cut carbon shaft. heck, just get a dremel carbide wheel and mandrel and use it with yer electric drill - works every bit as good!
Rob, are you still using all of your test dummy shafts? ...LOL
I figure with the right monkeying around I could make it happen, but you are right, just didn't happen for me. Went from too stiff to too weak and just never found the sweet spot.
I cut my carbons by "scoring" them with my pocket knife. I then take an emory board and flush them up. Been working for years. Its as compilcated as we make it.RC
Heck my Howard Hill bow is made with fiberglass and other "space age materials". Is it Trad? Of course the bamboo makes it though, for me.
I am a firm believer in using a tried and true design with the most advanced, or otherwise, materials that meet your requirements.
I am having fun with the Carbons and I found what I did on the first go around worked fine. We'll see if they live up to taking a beating on the walk through.
Being able to cut my shafts would make things a bit easier to mess around with. I will have to test the dremel wheel on the first shaft I break.....
Carbons ROCK, ya I hit a few rocks today. Flattened the tips pretty well and did not break one shaft though. I did lose the nocks on 3. They actually broke off and part of the nock was left inside the shaft and one of the point inserts popped halfway out too. Simple fixes and they are ready to go for the next beating.
I am a believer.
All I can say is, my Arrow Dynamic Trad Lites fly better than woodies out of my Hills. But, I still like to shoot the wood. :thumbsup:
Anyone have a suggestion on a 50 or 100 grain insert that works well on the Beman ICS bowhunter?
Thanks