Trad Gang

I am thinking about buying a chrono. What are your thoughts/experiences?

there was/is a similar thread on this.

my opinions on chrono's?  why bother?  seriously.  

other than to satisfy a curiosity, what does it mean to know yer arrow speed?  you don't need a speed reading machine to tell you if one arrow flies slower or faster outta one bow or another, just look at the trajectories between 15 and 20 yards.

imo, what absolutely matters most to a trad bowhunter is how consistent your accuracy with any given arrow of reasonable hunting weight (think: 9-10gpp at the least), how well that arrow flies (straight!), how sharp the broadhead (very!).  what else could really matter?

i say all of this after owning at least 4 chrono's at one time or another over the last 20-30 years, and selling or giving them all away.  what a waste of time and money.

ymmv.

I have a chrono,but I think exactly like Rob,never used for my recurves. 30 yards is my maximum range I use heavy arrows good foc tough broadheads,who care for speed.Maybe on the league for 3D where you look for the flattest trajectory.

I think a chrono can be a good tool if your are need the statistics to evaluate performance.   I have no problem with that.  I would guess that to those who are into design it can be a useful tool, to know if your efforts are going in the right direction.  I understand the need for gathering statistically significant data.  

To some that have a curiously scientific way of thinking it is an interesting statistic.  

Then again to others it can get to a point of "mine is bigger than yours" kinda thing.

At this point in my life "speed" is rather meaningless mainly because the bows I shoot are not significantly different from other bows on the market today.  In reality, the difference we may find between any two bows (2-3 fps)does not mean that much, at least to me.  

We all have bows, mated with arrows that will more than kill anything within reason.  We all like our bows because they are sweet, beautiful, forgiving, magnificent, traditional, manly, or for whatever reason we have chosen then.

We all have bows that, when we have become intimately familiar with their personalities, we begin to shoot with the greatest of degree of satisfaction because we can now "shoot where we look".  

To me, the flight of the arrow from the point where it leaves the shelf to where it strikes the target is a great experience.  That is not dependent on speed but our magical ability to feel the trajectory - to hit the mark.

Truly then, everybody's bow is the greatest if they think it is.     :thumbsup:

I love chronos.I don't own one but I've chronoed bows before and plan to get one.If you like to tinker and experiment get one.If you don't like to do that stuff don't get one.There's no good reason not to chrono a trad bow.I consider it part of an archers' tool bag like a spine tester or arrow saw.Not necessary to enjoy archery but good for going to the next level.

QuoteOriginally posted by vtmtnman:
... I consider it part of an archers' tool bag like a spine tester or arrow saw.Not necessary to enjoy archery but good for going to the next level.

"good to go to the next level" in what way?  

what does knowing the speed of an arrow do for you to better your shooting?

please help me understand your logic.

I can see how it could be a useful tool for the bowyer, so that he could gauge the effects of even small changes in design and materials. But that said, I've been making bows for a long time and I don't have one   ;)

I asked this question because I am into 3D archery. There are a lot of serious tournaments in The Netherlands/Belgium. I see that the tournaments become more difficulter each year.
Distances of 40 yards are quite common these days, and even up to 60.

Also the targets are more difficult to hit. Many times there are just small holes between the branches were you have to shoot trough in order to hit the target.

All this asks for fasts bows and a flat trajectory.

Besides of that, I think a chrono can tell you something about your form.
i.e. when you squeeze in the riser (a too firm grip) this will cost speed.
Not drawing at your lenght, will cost speed.

If your chrono is always giving the same results, I think that might tell something about your form.

An inconsequent form (different drawlenghts due to no proper anchoring and/or pulling trough or a too firm gip, like squeezing the riser) will give different readings I think.

Just my 5 cents....

I use one. It is interesting to see the differences in strings, arrow weight, brace heigth, etc.

FD,I know your point of you because here in Europe archers are more archers than bowhunters,so the best way for competitions is to use a very stable bow and really light arrows to have the flatter trajectory possible.This can hurts the bow but most competition shooters change their bows every year.

W/O being argumentative: Vtmtnman's "next level" - i can see this being a valid pt. Assuming an inconsistent release influences speed (almost a guarantee), having a chrono woudl be one way to evaluate consistency of one's release. I doubt anyone would argue that a consistent release is a bad thing. I don't own a chrono but can see how it coudl be a tool (as easily as i can see how it could be a crutch).
just one opinion.
mgreen

I have used them mainly to check on consistency of my form.But it is fun to check the speed of bows.But I really haven't used it in a couple of years,played with it a lot when I first got it.

Aint gonna outrun the speed of sound.I worry about having a quiet bow.If you put a broadhead in the boiler it kills no matter how fast or slow the arrow is.

QuoteOriginally posted by Matt Green:
W/O being argumentative: Vtmtnman's "next level" - i can see this being a valid pt. Assuming an inconsistent release influences speed (almost a guarantee), having a chrono woudl be one way to evaluate consistency of one's release. I doubt anyone would argue that a consistent release is a bad thing. I don't own a chrono but can see how it coudl be a tool (as easily as i can see how it could be a crutch).
just one opinion.
mgreen

i don't see validity in using a chrono as an aide to shooting form/release evaluation.  have never heard of any archery coaches using a chrono as a training/evaluation tool.  would be surprised to hear of it's use as such.

all finger shooters will have a range of release mechanics that will always vary the released arrow's speed.  we're no where near the mechanical advantage of a machine release and there is a large amount of surface area and mixed tension of the fingers hanging on the center serving.  this alone varies the released arrow's speed.  at best, we try to attain an acceptable range of release motion to keep the arrow's speed within as small a range as possible.  this is known as 'good form'.  it takes a lot of release speed difference to matter at 50 yards let alone 15 yards.
 
so, it matters not what the precise arrow speed is a 3 yards, what does matter is any variance in the range of a released arrow's speed over a large number of shots taken.  can't see where constantly knowing the precise arrow speed can help as a coach's tool for release mechanics.

Quotewhat does knowing the speed of an arrow do for you to better your shooting?

please help me understand your logic.

I don't think knowing arrow speed helps my shooting too much, Rob. If I didn't have a chronograph already, I wouldn't buy one for archery. However, since I have one, I find it interesting and entertaining to compare the arrow speeds of bows of like draw weights, to observe the differences in arrow string material, and to observe the differences caused by increasing arrow weight. Guess I'm a bit of a numbers junkie!    :readit:

One thing my chrony has shown me is this: the more I think about my release, the more variation I see in arrow velocities. When I simply stop drawing and relax my fingers, my release is much cleaner. This isn't too much of a problem, though, because the only time I think about my release is when the chronograph is in front of me!  :D

I don't have one and have never used one. I've often thought I would like to have one (for my PCP air rifle too)for fun. However, as I posted the last time I saw this topic, I fear I might find out something I didn't need to know that messed with my mind and caused me to cherish less one of my cherished beauties.

(I know, I could get sand in my eyes, ears, and nose.)

So, I'm going to resist again.

I have a PACT Professional that I bought about fifteen years ago for evaluating handloaded cartridge loads. I don't only shoot bows!

I find it fun to use as a tool to see the differences between bows with the same arrows, and different arrows out of the same bow. I don't regard its use as sacrilege, and push come to shove, velocity alone will never dictate which bow I take afield. There are too many subtle pros and cons in feel and fun factor to just base a choice on numbers. The choice falls to which is shooting best for me, and how confident I am in placing my shot with it.

Killdeer

I use a  chrono once in a while, for form trng. Great, IMO for evaluating the consistancy of ones release.  I can say that owning a chrono has only helped, never hurt, my shooing.

QuoteOriginally posted by Killdeer:
I have a PACT Professional that I bought about fifteen years ago for evaluating handloaded cartridge loads. I don't only shoot bows!

I find it fun to use as a tool to see the differences between bows with the same arrows, and different arrows out of the same bow. I don't regard its use as sacrilege, and push come to shove, velocity alone will never dictate which bow I take afield. There are too many subtle pros and cons in feel and fun factor to just base a choice on numbers. The choice falls to which is shooting best for me, and how confident I am in placing my shot with it.

Killdeer

Once again, well said Killy!
  :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by Killdeer:
I have a PACT Professional that I bought about fifteen years ago for evaluating handloaded cartridge loads. I don't only shoot bows!

I find it fun to use as a tool to see the differences between bows with the same arrows, and different arrows out of the same bow. I don't regard its use as sacrilege, and push come to shove, velocity alone will never dictate which bow I take afield. There are too many subtle pros and cons in feel and fun factor to just base a choice on numbers. The choice falls to which is shooting best for me, and how confident I am in placing my shot with it.

Killdeer

a righteous and proper perspective.  well said, kathy.  :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by Killdeer:
I don't only shoot bows!

Me neither...even in the yard!  :eek:    :D

well............

I got one, and lots of other stuff too

James..........

QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
I asked this question because I am into 3D archery. There are a lot of serious tournaments in The Netherlands/Belgium. I see that the tournaments become more difficulter each year.
Distances of 40 yards are quite common these days, and even up to 60.

Also the targets are more difficult to hit. Many times there are just small holes between the branches were you have to shoot trough in order to hit the target.

All this asks for fasts bows and a flat trajectory.

Besides of that, I think a chrono can tell you something about your form.
i.e. when you squeeze in the riser (a too firm grip) this will cost speed.
Not drawing at your lenght, will cost speed.

If your chrono is always giving the same results, I think that might tell something about your form.

An inconsequent form (different drawlenghts due to no proper anchoring and/or pulling trough or a too firm gip, like squeezing the riser) will give different readings I think.

Just my 5 cents....

All excellent points. I have a chronograph and use it for a number of different reasons -- some related to me, and others related to relative bow performance. I've also found it a useful tool to confirm or debunk theories I've heard or read over the years (how fletching size effects arrow speed, brass nocks versus tied on ones, skinny strings versus normal ones, arrow weight and FOC's effects on trajectory and speed). Guessing is fun, but knowing is better.

It's also useful for me when I'm setting up a backup bow. Ideally, I want to tune it to shoot the same arrows the same speed as my primary bow. Sure, I could take both bows out to the field range and test them from 20 feet to 80 yards, which I do anyway (yes, I'm just that picky), but a chronograph lets me know if any devations on point of impact between two bows are issues of velocity or my particular shooting nuances.

It can be used to help determine the efficiency of a bow.

It can be used to determine consistency of form and clean release (which can also be done by bareshaft testing).

It can be used to see if speed claims of various strings are really significant or not. It can be used to find which changes are substantial. When I compared dacron to dynaflight97, I found dynaflight typically gained 6-8 fps depending on other details (on some bow designs the change was only 5 fps, while on a few other designs it was as much as 10 fps). I also used it to compare things like a normal weight strings (15 strands) vs. light weight strings (8 strands), and I was unable to notice any significant difference when I actually tested them...MAYBE 1-2 fps at best, and I am being generous here. I just didn't see the difference people boasted about, but most people that boast such didn't actually test it either. Such tests helped me determine the "cost/gain" ratio of how to use various products in a way that best served my desired goals. (Note: I am happy with strings anywhere from 9-15 strand dynaflight97 bowstrings, as the chronograph helped me prove to myself that I would be giving up durability for little to nothing in return).

For these reasons I think it is a useful tool, but I don't think it is an essential one. If you are going to use it to evaluate certain things, they only cost about a $100 and can be useful in terms of providing objective measures. However, if you already have a set up that you are happy with and that is proven to work, there is no need for getting a chronograph to "approve" something that has already proven itself. A spine tester and a grain scale would be more important in my honest opinion, especially for someone that shoots wood.

well said, lee.  :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
   

QuoteOriginally posted by vtmtnman:
... I consider it part of an archers' tool bag like a spine tester or arrow saw.Not necessary to enjoy archery but good for going to the next level.

"good to go to the next level" in what way?  

what does knowing the speed of an arrow do for you to better your shooting?

please help me understand your logic. [/b]

My logic is some folks like to get into the level of tinkering and experimenting.And some don't.Like I said,you don't need an arrow saw or spine tester to enjoy archery.

No offense meant,I was asked about my thoughts or experiences. :thumbsup:

I own one and have shot through it - wish I wouldn't have. As most, I'm not into speed but wanted to see what these folks are shooting, that post and claim 200fps. They are coming from a really light arrow - too light for my taste. I suppose you could move silencers and change brace height to get your bow to shoot it's best, if your not into that, don't bother spending the money.

I think its a fun tool to have. I don't really care either about speed out of a hunting bow, I know what a bow can do after shooting it. For shooting 3D its pretty cool, then you can lighten up your arrows for flatter trajectory. You can compare limbs, etc. to find the best performance.
Some guys only 3D to practice for hunting, which would make this worthless. But when I shoot 3d myself, its to win at 3D. Has nothing to do with hunting. Thats what stumping is for in my opinion.
But buying a chrono is not gonna hurt you unless its the chrono OR a more useful piece of equipment. I think it will only make you more familiar with your bows and limbs.
Plus, again its kinda fun.

I wish I had one, it would be cool to experiment with. I like gadgets and tinkering.

I like the tinkering aspect, too. In fact, I'm even contemplating going through the physics involved with longbows. After all, I'd hate for those 2 physics courses I took in college to complete my pre-veterinary requirements to go completely to waste!   :saywhat:  

Chronies are fun, but certainly not a 'must have!'

I had a 50 pound longbow and my wife her NAT. We have identical draw lengths. I shot a couple of my wife's arrows and they seemed slower when i shot them.  My wife shot a couple of my heavier arrows and said they fly just fine for her.  We went over to a friend that loves his digital speedometer.  My wife's 38 pound NAT shot both arrows faster than my 50 pound longbow.  The remedy was, I gave that 50 pounder to someone with a longer draw than me and I will stick with my faster bows.  Was it an essential tool to know that info, heck no.  I could have shot those arrows for distance and would have known the same thing.  Would that slow 50 pounder kill a deer? Absolutely.

For all the guys who think that 3d shooting is about light arrows: sometimes it is but mostly it isn't.
As we all know, a light arrow will shorten the life of your precious bow. I don't have a money tree in my backyard, so I want my bows to last.

I shoot 10 gpp I think that is the ideal weight. Besides of that: I found out that a light arrow is very nervous, sensitive for hitting leaves or small branches and not forgiving for the slightest mistake in your form.

So I've been looking around for a longbow which was able to reach at least 185 fps @ 10 gpp. I found it.

I also moved over to a skinny string. In The Netherlands, a 16 strands string is considered normal, even for very light bows like 25lbs. At the moment I am shooting a 10 strands, but I will move over to a 6 strands ultra string from SBD (with padded loops ofcourse). Generally speaking, and depending from bow to bow, I would say that one strand less increases your bowspeed with 1 fps. So moving over from 16 to 6 strands will incrrease your speed with 10 lbs. Remove your string silencers and gain a few fps more.  

I also take my wooden shafts very serious. I have to shoot wood, because on a LOT of traditional tournaments it is wood only. My supplier, which is a friend also, spines my arrows in the lbs exactly and takes care they are all in the same weight range and are straight ofcourse. For this service I pay only 25 cents extra per shaft and it is worth it. End of this month he gets a new shipment And I get all the arrows who fit my bill. I hope he reaches 24. I think my woodies are as consistant as carbon or alu.

I don't have a spinetester, because my arrows are spined for me, but I do have a grain scale ofcourse for weighing all the things you should know and can contribute to the perfect arrow.

For shooting woods a grain scale is just as important as any other tool.  I finally bought a digital, the old hangy one was never very accurate.  Though a digital speedometer is not essential, they are fun.

ad, yer basically talking target language, not bowhunting.  ifaa fita trad longbow rules have almost nothing in common with trad bowhunting, and to boot the gear rules biased and illogical.

i still see no need for a chrono for trad target archers, either barebow or freestyle.  it's far easier to work out trajectories by just shooting the arrows at distance.

but i'll wager you a custom longbow that a carbon arrow will be far more consistent that the best of yer woodies - in every way.  with one arrow each, let's take a rove for an hour or so ....  :D

QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
For shooting woods a grain scale is just as important as any other tool.  I finally bought a digital, the old hangy one was never very accurate.  Though a digital speedometer is not essential, they are fun.

i'm working up a few dozen woodies right now, surewoods.  a grain scale is a nice to have - i use one! - but if the shaft source is a good one, not really needed.  i digitally weighed these 2 dozen full length shafts and the weight range is 369 to 380 grains.  plus, when cut to length and tapered, the added weight losses will also not be uniform since wood grain is not uniform.  all in all, it's lots less than 10 grains and that won't break the bank of even a target arrow.

Rob, ofcourse I am talking 3D language (which is something different as target shooting), because that is my ballgame and passion.

As for my woodies: I challenge every carbonshooter, no matter what distance! I am convinced that a woodie as described in my former post shoots as good, for not better than  a carbon arrow. As a matter of fact: I shot carbon too, and for quite a while, but I moved back to wood.

Besides of that: on many tournaments there are lots of carbonshooters which don't even come close to me.

Ive always just used them to kind of see how one of my bows stacksup against another,and to see what these new string matierials and number ofstrands in a string really makes.Nothing really productive for me.Just kind of a curio for me.I think Mr.DiStefano is right for all practical purposes.They can be an effective tool for some bowyers.Helps to see improvement in tip design and limb construction.Its a competitive world these days for some.Ive never owned one ,but usually always been able to use one when needed.

I build almost all of my own bows and have a chrony.  I enjoy seeing how fast mine shoot compared with others out there.  That said I built bows for twenty years and never felt shorted.  Not really necessary but fun.

Even though most of my shafts come with the grains written on them, it seems to disappear when I finish them.  i make arrows for quite a few people, and doing the math and trying to remember what the arrows were to begin with, when they ask me how heavy they are, gets to be a guess sometimes.  I always write the spines on the shafts, but the basic Rose Cities i get don't have the grains written on them and vary from batch to batch, so do my tapered shafts.  There are always ways to work around these things, but having stuff to satisfy ones curiosity is easier than guessing.  Like the time we wanted to know how fast our arrows were flying at a hundred yards.  We built a shield for the chrono, those things are hard to hit that far off.  Arrows definitely slow down in the air, especially mine.
  On the other hand how many bows do we really need.  No wait, I got that one.  When i buy a set of carbons and they end up too stiff for the bow I wanted them for I go to the stiffer bow.  But then I still don't have arrows for the 51 pounders.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
   

QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
For shooting woods a grain scale is just as important as any other tool.  I finally bought a digital, the old hangy one was never very accurate.  Though a digital speedometer is not essential, they are fun.

i'm working up a few dozen woodies right now, surewoods.  a grain scale is a nice to have - i use one! - but if the shaft source is a good one, not really needed.  i digitally weighed these 2 dozen full length shafts and the weight range is 369 to 380 grains.  plus, when cut to length and tapered, the added weight losses will also not be uniform since wood grain is not uniform.  all in all, it's lots less than 10 grains and that won't break the bank of even a target arrow. [/b]

Rob, I agree, wood is a natural material with all its beautiful aspects. The builder adds some inconsistencies too! Sometimes you use more glue as intended, as well for the nocks as points. I handlacquer the last 10 inches of my shaft with four layers, I bed some shafts "suck" more paint then others. I give the remaining part of my shafts three layers with Tung oil, and some like more then others. All this leads to weight differences.

Therefore I weigh them on a grainscale after they heve dried and are completed. Then I make sets within the same weight range. They differ only +/- 5 grains. I know this is very pickey, but it gives me a good feeling!

Somehow it is fashionable to poo poo the 's' word; well not for me.
If I did not have one I'd get one-I mean why not? I make self bows and want to see the difference changes like recurved tips will make. If I can use it to tweak 15 fps out of the same bow/arrow combination that is a big deal. I can't increase my bow weight, and don't want to reduce arrow weight, so upping the efficiency is key. Speed is just a way to measure power what's so dirty about that? LOL

I think there there is only one answer: everybody should enjoy her/his hobby as she/he pleases.......

I use one, Because I want to know what the speed of a bow is. I know that a chrono will vary, but it still gives you a good idea.

I like fast bows, and I really don't know what is so bad about that.

So why is wanting a fast bow so taboo among some trad folks?

Good question!

this is one of those subject matters best relegated to a conference call at worst case - it could take a volume of pages to deal with all the subtleties.  ;)

I agree  :)

I think Rob just said "good bye thread!"    :bigsmyl:

QuoteOriginally posted by Gen273:
I use one, Because I want to know what the speed of a bow is. I know that a chrono will vary, but it still gives you a good idea.

I like fast bows, and I really don't know what is so bad about that.

So why is wanting a fast bow so taboo among some trad folks?

There is nothing wrong with speed. I won't keep a slow bow either. I don't think Rob is saying something is wrong with having a chronograph and I know he is NOT saying efficiency isn't important. I think he is only saying it isn't a necessary piece of equipment to the average archer and that most archers would be better served into spending their time and/or money on other things...otherwise he wouldn't have said "Well said" in reply to my previous post.

Efficiency is indeed VERY important to traditional bows. In fact, I would venture to say it is more important in traditional bows than it is in compounds. The closer one gets to primitive equipment, the more important efficiency becomes as we become further away from overkill. For example, in terms of my 12 year old daughter who may only draw 24" and be shooting a bow that is 40#@28"...efficiency is EXTREMELY important.

That said, it isn't uncommon for some people to get rid of equipment that has already proven itself only because they found out their bow isn't as fast as they wished for.

If I had a bow that had already proven itself, I wouldn't get rid of it because I found something else faster. Instead, I would keep the old bow and buy 2nd bow that is faster...and ONLY after the faster bow proved accurate, quiet, durable, etc...then would I get rid of the old slow bow. Doing otherwise is somewhat running in circles chasing the holy grail. Because of this, some people love the chronograph and others hate it. In the end...it is just a tool. Use it for what it is.

Speed is ONE part of a bow, and while it is a part I require in terms of efficiency, it isn't the total package. Keep the chrono in perspective.

Efficiency is measured in not just speed...but in arrow weight, draw length, and draw weight. A great deal of 200+ fps posts get people into chasing things that are 1. not realistic with hunting set ups for the average draw length and 2. in fact may be counter productive to hunting as one begins to put speed on the pedestal...and then people begin pulling heavier and heavier bows or shooting lighter and lighter arrows in search for "male enhancement." (I am NOT referring to anyone in this post, but just the "nature of the beast" so to speak when it comes to a person's competitive nature to "one up" someone else.)

Instead, put common sense back in charge. Speed is great...as long as it is reported in terms of efficiency (arrow weight, pull weight, draw length) and is not the only attribute of the bow.

I think most of us here can understand and agree with what I have said.

In the end, if you want a chrono...get one. No harm is done in such, but just use it as a tool to 1. measure ONE PART of a bow's performance and 2. to work on your form.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
I think Rob just said "good bye thread!"     :bigsmyl:  

no no - just saying what i said, that this topic is best explored in a voice chat rather than a whole buncha typing.  

anyhoo - what lee said!  again!    :thumbsup:

Well said Lee!

I own one still from my compound days but since I've been a Trad shooter for 2 years now the only reason I use mine is to test my self.

Here's the deal, any video of my self is done from my camera on a tripod, any other tools that help me verify that I'm being consistent with my shooting form & shooting is done by my own means which comes into play of the chronograph.

I know that with each arrow I may have a slight variance in speed due to the +/- 2gr. difference but as long as the speed is within 5 FPS of all 6 arrows I shoot in a string, I know that I'm being consistent & therefore doing my best.

Otherwise my chrono just sit's in it's box collecting dust.

Thanks guys. Pride to one up someone else can indeed be a downfall of mankind...and archery isn't free of such nature as we try to discover who is the fastest. That said,...I already know I am the fastest. HA HA HA...  :biglaugh:         :deadhorse:  

Seriously, we just need to keep things in perspective.

I have a buddy that actually sold a bow after he put it on a chrono. He killed a ton of game with it but when he saw how slow it was he sold it.

QuoteOriginally posted by jax:
I have a buddy that actually sold a bow after he put it on a chrono. He killed a ton of game with it but when he saw how slow it was he sold it.

is that not dumb or what????    :dunno:

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jax:
I have a buddy that actually sold a bow after he put it on a chrono. He killed a ton of game with it but when he saw how slow it was he sold it.

is that not dumb or what????     :bigsmyl: