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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: psychmonky on January 13, 2011, 02:56:00 PM
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We are going to get my 3 year old son a puppy and I would like a bit of practical application.
Any one have any experience bloodtrailing with the aid of a dog? Which breed would be best for the chore and for my son?
Scott
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beagle
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I know Larry Surtees has had great success with his wire-hair Daschund. I'd ask him
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There are a lot of breeds that will do the job. I would consider other things like the size of your house and the dog size the disposition of the breed. If you can accommodate a large breed in your environment(work,children,finances for food/vet bills and space) and who will ultimately be caring for the dog.Those things thought of first and then train the dog to trail. JMHO
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There is a website with good info on blood trailing breeds. I have my lab which is an excellent bird retriever to secind as a blood trailer though I only got him on two this season, one of which he made me look the fool for distrusting him.
The man who made snuffers son, Ryan Rothaar (coorect I hope??) has great info on this topic as well.
Jason
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Depending on what you want the pup to do though, if blood trailing is all I would get a Dachsund or beagle.
Jason
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I bought a couple of Jagd Terriers for blood trailing and hunting other critters in the off season.
Bad mistake on my part. Jagds are not a good dog for the suburbs as they need a lot of excercise and need to hunt at least twice a week all year long.
I raised and breed dogs for years, and from my personal experience, I don't like having ANY dog around kids under 6.
Dogs are a pack animal. If you are going to get a dog for tracking blood. I recomend getting a breed that is known to be good family pets from a reputable breeder that has references for disposition.
Just about any breed can be trained to trail blood. I would focus on disposition as the dog will be 99% pet and 1% blood tracker.
Just my honest opinion.
Best of luck,
Paul
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Blacktail has that right. Jagds are not pets for kids. They are hunting dogs. They need to have a lot of field time. They are not a house dog by any means.
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Adopt a pitbull. They can do anything any other dog can do except for maybe pointing.I have raised both of my sons with pitbulls and never had to worry about aggression issues. They are "The American Dog" they just caught a bad rap. (http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/2crazyboys_photos/dscn1344.jpg) (http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/2crazyboys_photos/dscn1451.jpg)
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Originally posted by Izzy:
Adopt a pitbull. They can do anything any other dog can do except for maybe pointing.I have raised both of my sons with pitbulls and never had to worry about aggression issues. They are "The American Dog" they just caught a bad rap.
I'm withh you 100% on this one. I put my pit pup on 2 trails this year and he had no trouble with either. he was only 3 months old at the time and the trails were short and pretty heavy.
The APBT is without a doubt the smartest misunderstood breed out there.
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I have a fair amount of exp. on this one. Any dog will blood track, I prefer labs becuase I think they are easier to train to do it. Labs are smart and just want to please the boss once they figure out what ur looking for BINGO it clicks for them what the job is. The very best blood dog I've ever been around was a argetine breed "dogos argetine" or some such. He was a bear dog dropout but was one helluva blood dog. he was also the family pet.
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Originally posted by adeeden:
Originally posted by Izzy:
Adopt a pitbull. They can do anything any other dog can do except for maybe pointing.I have raised both of my sons with pitbulls and never had to worry about aggression issues. They are "The American Dog" they just caught a bad rap.
I'm withh you 100% on this one. I put my pit pup on 2 trails this year and he had no trouble with either. he was only 3 months old at the time and the trails were short and pretty heavy.
The APBT is without a doubt the smartest misunderstood breed out there. [/b]
Mine doesn't blood trail, but she loves the ranch. We've yet to meet anyone who doesn't love her. I adopted her about a year ago.
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Lots of breeds CAN do it. The nose is one of the less important parts - virtually any dog has enough nose. Focus, intelligence, willingness to please, trainability are factors. PREY DRIVE, that is controlled prey drive, is probably one of the most important parts.
There are some dogs bred specifically for blood tracking. They are rare and very hard to come by in the US (ie Hanoverian Bloodhound). There are also versatile breeds that work very well for developing into a blood tracker. Probably the most used in the US are European bloodline Dachshunds and Deutsche Drathaars (sorry if I missed the spelling). Coat type in Dachshunds is meaningless for hunting/prey drive (regardless of what some folks in the US think). The bloodline is what matters - and the prey drive and intelligence of the dog. Search the word "Oskar" in PowWow and you'll get some posts I've made about our standard sized European dachshund. He is the BEST dog possible for what WE (the wife and I) want. Your mileage may vary. Just don't assume you can buy a weiner dog from the breeder in the newspaper and develop a hunting dog. US type Dachshunds are VERY different dogs than European ones (Teckels).
Ryan
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Something I wanted to mention - think about what you want to do with the dog and let this help drive your decision. There are compromises with any dog breed, including working dogs, and anyone that tells you otherwise is blowing smoke. If you want to do a couple easy blood tracks a year - easy for the dog, not necessarily easy for you - then you probably don't need a high powered dog. I know of several guys that are way over dog-powered for what they do. They go out and buy a $2000 dog, from what they consider to be top bloodlines, then do 2 easy tracks a year with him. Heck, its a free country, but this seems like buying a Maserati to commute 10 miles to work, to me.
My wife and I tend to go overboard with things, but I know we put around 150 hours of tracking work into our dog his first year (training him from 8 weeks old) - and made a dedicated effort and got him on 13 real wounded deer tracks by the time he was 6 months old. We DID NOT need to do this for him, but for US - the key to successful tracking is the dog/handler relationship. You aren't a dope on a rope behind the dog, but a team. Poorly developed teams will find the easy deer - but the 40 hour tracks with no visible blood that go for a mile take a dedicated team effort.
We really love tracking, and it is something my wife has gotten into whole hog. Even so, I feel that we NEED to put in more time with him to honor the effort that went into his breeding and to help him develop his abilities fully.
Ryan
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I have a yellow lab that has found several deer for me. She is a family pet and just took to the blood trailing on her own. She is 14 years old now and can't get around to do it anymore but she would still try.
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I have a pup who has a supurb nose and is a great family dog. He kinda sorta sniffed a trial earlier this fall. He found the next blood when we were at a tough spot. Catahoula. Got the breeders name if you are interested. Great all around dog.
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I had a German sheperd mix which took up finding a deer for me without any training "except" I raised a doe and Brute was very fond of it. Brutus would find the deer and when I caught up be licking it to encourage play.
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Good info guys. I usually end up with 3-4 trails of my own to follow (although with my recent switch to traditional equipment that may go down.) I also have a number of friends and family who hunt so I usually end up on 10-15 trails per year.
You are right that the dog will be a pet first and a hunter second.
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who has good info on traing to blood trail?
thanks
wayne
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I have a Jack Russell pup. His mother and father are owned by seperate well known bowyers. I can fully recommend the breed for tracking-mine went 4 for 4 this season on trails. I just wish I shot as well as he tracks!
As was mentioned by others, terriers are very high energy. Mine calms down quickly, but still exhibits the jumping, etc that the breed is known for. Best of luck with your search.
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Originally posted by meathead:
Blacktail has that right. Jagds are not pets for kids. They are hunting dogs. They need to have a lot of field time. They are not a house dog by any means.
Check out the boar hunt on youtube with a couple jagd's in eastern Europe!!! Man them things may be little, but they are fierce!!!
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Originally posted by Slasher:
Originally posted by meathead:
Blacktail has that right. Jagds are not pets for kids. They are hunting dogs. They need to have a lot of field time. They are not a house dog by any means.
Check out the boar hunt on youtube with a couple jagd's in eastern Europe!!! Man them things may be little, but they are fierce!!! [/b]
I was going to post a video but thought I better not.
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Here in Sweden, the huntinglaw say's the there MUST be a trackingdog availible in 2h from the shoot been taken, the law apply on all biggame down to roedeer, for other smallgame it's highly recomended or a absolut need for, a dog that can find the animal(birds, hare, fox and so on).
To practice blood tracking, you'll need to learn the dog what you want it to track, the dog know by instinct how to track prey.
Most breed can be useful but some are better than others.
I use my German hunting terrier for all my hunting, works greate with the kids but isnt a first dog so to speak, needs good handlingskills from the beginning, go wrong and be to soft with a hunting terrier and you'll get a combination of a chainsaw and a piranah on crack!
I mostly recomend at "slow" dog for pure tracking, such as a lab, golden, and dogs alike, a good tracking dog is easy to follow in the woods and easy to read, this is the key here, the dog wont be better than the handler! There must be a good bond between dog and handler, so that the handler can inturpret the dogs behavior and reactions, in that way, dog and handler becomes a team that will work together.
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Wirehair Dachshounds are one the best.These dogs are good for multiple reasons but being able to pick them up at times to put them on a trail is not back breaking like a lab. Their noses are also closer to the ground. There is one guy in Michigan that does it for a business. he went 14-14 with his.
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Originally posted by StJoePTP:
Wirehair Dachshounds are one the best.These dogs are good for multiple reasons but being able to pick them up at times to put them on a trail is not back breaking like a lab. Their noses are also closer to the ground. There is one guy in Michigan that does it for a business. he went 14-14 with his.
Picking them up and putting them on the trail or in your gear bag is a great advantage.Wouldn't even think of picking up my Lab.In Jersey she weighs more than the deer. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
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Originally posted by fujimo:
who has good info on traing to blood trail?
thanks
wayne
My other passion is dog training mostly German shorthairs but if you dont bird hunt get a little dog
Heres the short simple way to do it...
Basically when you gut or hang a deer try to recover blood from it and freeze it, if you have some buddies that will help get them to recover as much blood as possible everytime you or they kill a deer.
Now freeze it, film canisters or small tupperware type containers work well.
Next the training,
Put a harness on the dog this will teach the dog to associate the harness with the tracking job at hand. Use this harness for tracking and nothing else.
Now the rest is simple take the frozen containers of blood and mix them with a gallon of well water ( dont use chlorinated water) then lay a trail with a gallon milk jug with holes punched in it so the water/blood mixture drips steadily on the trail. one film canister or small cantainer of this size per gallon will work well. wear rubber boots to conceal your scent you want the dog to track the deer blood not you.
First trails should be straight and maybe 25 feet get the dog to track them, and have a reward on the end, hot dogs or any dog treat the dog likes will work. do this once each day for a few days so the dog learns that there is something real good for him at the end of the short track.
Next gradually make them a little harder first longer in a straight line the start to make right angle turns so the dog learns to backtrack and pick the trail back up.
Dogs pick this up real quick, little dogs like dachounds and small mutts work well because they are close to the ground and naturally ground trail, but labs and shorthairs learn it quick also. The nice thing about little dogs is they wont jerk your arm out of the socket trailing, a big dog in a harness can pull like you cannot believe.
DO NOT DRAG A DEER HIDE!!
The reason you are going to the trouble of collecting the blood is to teach the dog to track blood trails not deer, anywhere you kill a deer there will be lots more of them, you want the dog to track blood trails only.
When you actaully do this in the field wear orange and have some assistants that hang back if possible wearing orange also. have one of them bring a 22 pistol if legal, in case you need to dispatch one( check regs).
You can place deer road kills at the end of trails when you get to the advanced part of the training, then really praise the dog when he finds it and give him his treat.
thats about it.
Key points
1)no deer hide drags, just blood
2)dog always on lead while wearing tracking harness , otherwise the dog will leave you behind and is in danger of being shot during gun season, never use this harness for anything else but tracking.
3) you take the week or two it takes to train this and you will never lose another deer
4) let other deer hunters in your area know you can do this to give the dog ample practice each season
5) love your dog
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one more thing there is no way I would allow my dogs around a 3 year old unless I was in direct supervision
toddlers and even little dogs are a bad mix, children have no concept of dog body language and even a little dog could kill a child. Dogs are pack animals and they settle pack ranking issues with aggression posturing followed with actual fighting if the posturing doesn't get the message across.
That is why kids get hurt.
I raised 5 kids with 6-10 german shorthairs in my home but never allowed them together unless I was there directly watching what was happening.
The other issue is an excited dog can knock a child down by accident, much like one of my horses did to me last week.
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Originally posted by bobman:
one more thing there is no way I would allow my dogs around a 3 year old unless I was in direct supervision
toddlers and even little dogs are a bad mix, children have no concept of dog body language and even a little dog could kill a child. Dogs are pack animals and they settle pack ranking issues with aggression posturing followed with actual fighting if the posturing doesn't get the message across.
That is why kids get hurt.
I raised 5 kids with 6-10 german shorthairs in my home but never allowed them together unless I was there directly watching what was happening.
The other issue is an excited dog can knock a child down by accident, much like one of my horses did to me last week.
listen to the man he is giving the best advice. :thumbsup: I have seen children get hurt/bitten when I worked in the ER.And don't rough play with the puppy till the kids get older.The dog may not know when to stop.
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Can you train the dog using blood from cattle, etc. Deer blood only might be tougher to get. If I got a dog, I would use it to blood trail hogs, elk, etc. Just wondered how important the type of blood used in the training sessions.
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I used to use a duetch drathaar... a german dog similar to a wirehair... he found two deer for us last year and he was about a year old
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Originally posted by acolobowhunter:
Can you train the dog using blood from cattle, etc. Deer blood only might be tougher to get. If I got a dog, I would use it to blood trail hogs, elk, etc. Just wondered how important the type of blood used in the training sessions.
You can get scraps of meat and even freeze blood in sandwich bags after a harvest. The dog can be trained to trail blood or the carcass.
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you can also use pig or cow blood
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Originally posted by Alfie:
I use my German hunting terrier for all my hunting, works greate with the kids but isnt a first dog so to speak, needs good handlingskills from the beginning, go wrong and be to soft with a hunting terrier and you'll get a combination of a chainsaw and a piranah on crack!
Do yours looks something like this?:
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm291/BlacktailBuck/PaulScruffNutria1-4-08.jpg http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm291/BlacktailBuck/ChewyCompressed1.jpg
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You folks need to show pix. Any dog will trail if properly trained. Just an excuse to get one you always wanted.
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Hi guy’s
Here is my tracking dog his name is Hammer he is a wired hair terrier!
(http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af252/spiralhornsafaris/DSC_0170.jpg)
Best Regards
Louis van Bergen
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Here's my CHOWDER, cousin to Ryan's dog Oscar. Also pictured is his first REAL deer track from last week-end and the results! I posted a thread called "My little tracking pup grows up", you can check it out.
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd63/HuntPyramid/044.jpg)
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd63/HuntPyramid/100_03892.jpg)
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Originally posted by buckster:
[QB] Here's my CHOWDER, cousin to Ryan's dog Oscar. Also pictured is his first REAL deer track from last week-end and the results! I posted a thread called "My little tracking pup grows up", you can check it out.
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd63/HuntPyramid/044.jpg)
Barry, they say a dogs traits often resemble that of their owner. In this case, I would have to agree :biglaugh:
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Originally posted by BlacktailBowhunter:
Originally posted by Alfie:
I use my German hunting terrier for all my hunting, works greate with the kids but isnt a first dog so to speak, needs good handlingskills from the beginning, go wrong and be to soft with a hunting terrier and you'll get a combination of a chainsaw and a piranah on crack!
Do yours looks something like this?:
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm291/BlacktailBuck/PaulScruffNutria1-4-08.jpg http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm291/BlacktailBuck/ChewyCompressed1.jpg [/b]
yepp, that's a German Hunting Terrier, or GHT for short ;)
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I use a Border collie, I have trained her with man made blood trails and she did fine, I put her on a couple real blood trails and she did OK, but after a few something clicked in her and she got the idea of what I wanted and she is great now. My Border Collie will strive to do whatever I ask of her and once she figured out what I wanted she really worked hard on blood trails.
As far as a pitbull, I grew up in Louisiana hog hunting w/ dogs and have seen what these dogs are bred for, it will scare you to see what these dogs are capable of. Before everyone gets all fired up at me, this is my belief based on my observation, not hearsay. If you believe differantly that is fine.
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(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k209/hogdancer/P1050240.jpg)
here is my Border Collie from a couple weeks ago. There is a good book by John Jeanneney on training blood dogs
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My wirehaired dachshund is my best friend and a great tracker. My deer season has been a little slow so last week he picked up a new hobby.
(http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/normanparks/woodduck1.jpg)
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Bama, that would be a great woody to have mounted.
Dave
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You can train with any blood. A good dog does not just track blood, but is able to differentiate on the specific wounded animal you are tracking - by all of that animal's individual scents, not just the blood. An experienced tracking dog that knows what he is doing will track the right animal through a herd of the same species by the individual scent of THAT specific animal.
Oskar and my wife at the end of a very difficult trail with the happy hunter. You can see where this deer is hit. We started tracking 15 hours after the hit in a 100 acre CRP field under EXTREMELY dry conditions. The hunters (4 guys) searched pretty hard before calling and couldn't find him. This was about an 800 yard track..The stripped hair on the ground behind the deer isn't from coyotes, its from Oskar attacking the carcass:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/RyanRothhaar/9pt.jpg)
Here is a better picture of the dog.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/RyanRothhaar/OskaratWallacesWellApril152010.jpg)
He's our sweetie. Sleeps in the bed and gets his belly rubbed every morning first thing. DONT SPOIL YOUR TRACKING DOG! ;) ..
Here's my favorite - Oskar on his first woods walk in Indiana - 9 weeks old.
Ryan
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/RyanRothhaar/OskarSep272009.jpg)
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We adopted a pit in August. Ive had labs and pointers growing up, she is as smart, gentle and loving as any dog i have seen. Oh yeah and she found my buck this year after i looked for eight hours with no luck. She made me look like a fool considering she found him 75yds from where i last lost him. Pits get my vote as well :thumbsup:
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Great dog pix folks! Doubt I could pick just one of the previous.
Smartest dog I ever saw was a Pit. She was a dandy & could fetch a beer out of the frig & a bunch more incredible stuff. Not enough for me to get one but I like bird dogs more.
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FWIW
Yes its true the dog will track using a combination of scents but the blood is the key to starting him on that particular deer. The blood is what identifies it from other deer
That is why I use blood first when training.
Dogs are naturals for the most part at tracking some need no training just give them a few opportunities.
Pits are not legal to hunt with on WMAs in Georgia, I own a pit ( inherited it from one of my daughters) they are nice dogsand I like them.
I would still choose some other breed for other reasons I dont want to debate.
Those dashunds in the pictures look pretty cool if I didn't birdhunt I would try one of them
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If you are also a bird hunter try a GSP. Here is Lucy looking for the blood scent up in the air but she worked it out.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r243/7Lakes/Dog%20Pictures/100_2078.jpg)