does a longer limb make a bow faster, with everything else being equal?
no.
Generally a longer limb makes a bow slower.
There are many other variables to consider though.
Zradix is correct.
Darren
Thanks for the info guys!!
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=074231
Tests done on 4 BlackWidows of the same weight. Seems the 60" is the fastest.
Generally the heavier the limb the slower. Extra length means extra weight. It's not always a bad thing. Longer limbs are more forgiving of release errors. Plus if it comes off the same form the added length will have a tad more reflex (added speed)
i gave a 68" R/D bamboo with a nice radius multi pieced dark handle to a friend, that is 51@ 28, made by some Ballenger dude. It is smoother and faster than any 68" longbows of that weight. Design, workmanship and expert tillering can make a long limbed bow shoot like a like short bow and behave like a gentle giant. He had the bow for a year before he realized that it was 68" long, "Seems short when I handle it in brush and trees" he said.
I think the only real answer to that question is "it depends". Limb design, riser design, arrow weight all interact. Most of what I have read says longer bows, in general, are actually faster; primarily because of their greater leverage. My experience is the fastest bows seem to be in the middle; 60" or so. Side by side, my 58" Red Wing is considerably faster than it's 52" "stacks like a deck of cards" brother; same arrow and weight.
I think it really depends on the design. In my limited experience shooting hill style bows I have found it really depends on how much of the limb is actually working. All of my bows are 68" to 70" ntn and to me it seems the bows with the smaller risers therefore longer working limbs shoot heavier arrows much faster than the shorter limbed bows of the same draw weight. But in turn the shorter limbed bows seem to like the light arrows much better and shoot them much faster.
My friend has a bow, 64" 45#, he broke a limb in an accident and replaced it from the bowyer with a 45# 66" limb. Same arrow, same draw,same string, when he ran it thru a chrony it was 5 fps faster. Now that's just one case, but.........
surprised with all the engineers on here that know all about this stuff and have simulators , that we havent figured out 100% if everything is equal , where you start to see differences.
theres lots of variables. thats why we build bows i think. even the glass guys who calculate tapes and whatnot , you learn something every time.
-hov
I used to think that shorter limbs were faster until I started shooting my 68 in. triple crown. dang fast
I don't want to start the arguments again here.
There are many..many..topics about this here already.
The search function ( or google advanced search on tradgang.com) will find you more opinions and and facts than you want to read.
Some of the posts above are not comparing apples to apples. Problem is every bow design is different. Some like shorter draws, some longer. Some like heavy arrows, some lighter.
So to go deeper, some apples (even from the same tree) aren't the same.
Gen273 ...If you are looking for a bow and maybe new to this, I would put speed a few lines down the list priorities for my bow.
Find a bow that just "feels right" to you when you shoot it. Not just holding. SHOOTING it.
Don't worry about an arrow not flying well during testing. YOU CAN FIX THAT.
With comfort comes accuracy. With accuracy comes MEAT.
I'd like to find a FAST bow too. I haven't found one ( that I can afford ) that was comfortable for ME.
Find a comfortably shooting bow for YOU, not comfortable for me or your friend, or someone in the gang..YOU.
After that the rest will come together for you.
Good luck! :thumbsup:
I think some of you guys are interchanging bow length with limb length. Many fast bows with longer lengths (for example Martin Hunters, JH Gamemaster Jets, Black Widows) have large risers and relatively short working limbs. I will agree the weight of the limb is the driving factor of speed as Jack Howard and OL Adcock have most notably proven.
QuoteOriginally posted by bigbadjon:
I think some of you guys are interchanging bow length with limb length. Many fast bows with longer lengths (for example Martin Hunters, JH Gamemaster Jets, Black Widows) have large risers and relatively short working limbs. I will agree the weight of the limb is the driving factor of speed as Jack Howard and OL Adcock have most notably proven.
yeppers...bow design.
overall length doesn't tell you much.
Just how long a case you need.
as already mentioned... Maybe! ;)
To clarify I was not seeking to steal deadsmples answer, I was just trying to give an example of limb length versus bow length. A better example may be taking a 62" Martin Hunter and a 62" Howard Hill. Both are the same length but the riser on the HH maybe 6in where the Martin maybe closer to 16in.
any bow that shoots a light arrow faster than another bow will also shoot a heavy arrow faster if the two bows are same poundage and the draw lengths are equal.
. Weight and speed of limb return for x amount of power applied equals speed of projectile. the lighter the moving limb is and all else equal the more force that is applied to the projectile.
Here is a fact.
When a bow shoots a light arrow faster than another bow shooting that arrow and all else , poundage draw length, string. brace height ect is equal . the slower bow will be much closer to the speed of the faster bow with a heavier arrow. Hoever, It will never , ever be faster. It may get really close but within the margin of error it will always be slower. This is because the slower bow is applying more of its efficiency against the heavy arrow.
the faster bow already has a very high efficiency then it does not have as much more reserve to apply.
For instance if the fast bow is 90 percent efficient with the light arrow , it only can increase 9 percent to attain 99 percent. on the other hand if the slow bow is only 70 percent efficient with the light arrow it has 29 percent to apply before it reaches 99 percent. In theory it has 19 percent more to gain than the faster more efficient bow. it may actually come real close when the arrow is heavy enough to use most of that lost energy efficiency. Buttttt realisticaly within any weight of arrow that is reasonable the faster bow will always be the faster bow. God Bless, Steve
Lot of great information presented thus far.
Had wished to acquire 60" limbs for a 64" ACS RC.
ACS said that there would be a noticeable loss in performance and that they would not recommend it.
My suggestion would be to ask the bowyer.
My son and I both went from 3pc 62" ACS to 64" and got performance and comfort improvements, bow weight stayed the same.
If your shooting a traditional longbow, length does matter. I have Schulz and Miller in 68" and 66". It is more stable, durable, and pleasant to shoot. The same is true with the R&D bows, but I prefer a little shorter and shoot 64" and 62" Robertson's. I am less concerned about the small difference in speed in any particular bow. Speed matters in racing, not much in bowhunting.
Bjorn,
I am interested to know how the length increase is obtained in your ACS example. If the additional 2" in length is becuase the handle is longer with the same length limb it would indicate that the speed increase is due to the increaase in handle length as I would expect. If the additional length is due to placing longer limbs on a handle of the original length I would have expected the speed to be slower. I would also expect both approches to provide comfort or shootablilty improvements.
"Last arrow"
We bought new longer limbs and used the original risers, we were both impressed with more shooting comfort and increased accuracy-improvement on an already great bow.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
any bow that shoots a light arrow faster than another bow will also shoot a heavy arrow faster if the two bows are same poundage and the draw lengths are equal.
. Weight and speed of limb return for x amount of power applied equals speed of projectile. the lighter the moving limb is and all else equal the more force that is applied to the projectile.
Here is a fact.
When a bow shoots a light arrow faster than another bow shooting that arrow and all else , poundage draw length, string. brace height ect is equal . the slower bow will be much closer to the speed of the faster bow with a heavier arrow. Hoever, It will never , ever be faster. It may get really close but within the margin of error it will always be slower. This is because the slower bow is applying more of its efficiency against the heavy arrow.
I would have to respectfully disagree. Some years back I had the opportunity to use my neighbors chrono and shot my new( at the time )Mahantango through it. As well as a few other Hill style longbows I own. The Mahantango was 50#@28" or 52# at my 29" draw. This is exactly the same as my Jerry Hill longbow. Both bows are 68.5" nock grove to nock grove. Both are narrow deep cored Hill style bows. The only major difference I am able to determine between the two bows is the actual limb length. The Jerry Hill measured just over 14" fade out to fade out, and the Mahantango measured just over 12" fade out to fade out. When I compared them at the chrono I first used my normal hunting arrow which was at the time some 15gr per pound for my Jerry Hill. The Mahantango shot that arrow on average 3fps faster than the JH. Just for fun I decided to see how they both shot a random carbon I had around that came in at around 9gr per pound and the JH shot that one considerably faster than the Mahantango, if I remember correctly it was something like 5 fps faster on average.
Personally I do not understand how this was possible but my neighbor who is also a bowyer said that it is most likely because the Mahantango has a longer working limb.
I am surprised that I have spent this much time explaining something I don't really care about!! :knothead: So to answer the original question. In my experience it depends on the design of the bow.
i have asked this question to bowyers when placing orders and the answers vary. but what is consistant with their answers is....the performance difference is very very slight either way.
According to Ken beck, his longer longbows at black widow were faster than the short ones. From his mouth...really what's the difference to the deer whether you miss him faster or slower??
Regardless of length, the amount of energy available versus the weight of the moving limb material that the available energy needs to move will greatly influence bow speeds. I have very trim and slim longbows that will blow the pants off some that have heavy tip segments. A longbow that does more of its bending near the riser will have more limb to move than one that does more bending out to the tips. With some designs the amount of working limb is much shorter which can contribute to more efficient stored energy, as example some static recurves are pretty quick, but only a few inches of the limb is compressing and stretching to develop the power. However it is compared, one must still compare the identical bows at different lengths, if the bowyer makes adjustment with longer length limbs, it is no longer apples to apples. I find that highly efficient longer bows are all around better most of the time, but there are always exceptions.