I shoot 2216 easton aluminum arrows and have about a 100 shafts so I am not going to go to different arrow. They fly good and usally pass thru deer no problem.
However after reading alot of the stuff on here I would like to experiment on increasing shaft weight and FOC %. I use bear razor heads and have a lot of them and have always had good success with them so thats not going to change either.
My draw is around 29 inches my arrows are currently 31ish (I need to check).Most of my 100 shafts are full length so I can change that to what ever would tune best,and I use a four fletch 5 1/2 RH feathers.
My three bows are all in the 66-69 lb range at 28 inches.
SO my question is with these limitations is there any simple ways to increase the FOC with my existing 2216's.
I know its not necessary but I also think anything I can do to improve penetration is a plus no matter how little that improvement would be.
I hunt whitetails and elk and have a self imposed 25 yard limit on game animals most of my many deer kills have been at 1/2 that.
Thanks
You could try brass insert.
I think it will be hard for you to increase FOC since you're shooting aluminum arrows.
Where do you get them and do they make them for this arrow, my existing ones are aluminum.
Three Rivers does have some brass inserts for aluminium arrows. You can also use heavier adapters in your broadhead. Any weight added to the front of your shaft will decrese the dynamic spine. It may take some tuning and you may have to shorten your shaft a little if you have room to do so.
what's your FOC% now with that setup ?
As Ferret suggested, the steel broadhead adapters are probably the easiest solution. Sounds like you have enough length on your current shafts so that you will (able to cut them down to tune them to handle the new weight.
I shoot very heavy aluminum arrows. My 42" bow shoots a 637 grain 2117 arrow which gives me a 15.16 GPP (grains per pound) arrow, but it's only 15.4% FOC.
My 37# bow shoots a 550 grain 2114 arrow which gives me 14.86 GPP ( grains per pound) arrow, but it's only 16.2% FOC.
Now, someone can correct me, but if you add more tip weight to an aluminum arrow, you weaken the spine. Since spine is weaker, the arrow has to be cut shorter. This will increase FOC, but it's also going to increase GPP (grains per pound) as well.
If you want to substantially increase FOC without making a huge increase in GPP, shooting carbon arrows is the way to go.
I dont have a clue what my current FOC is I think I'll just try the brass inserts and experiment with my shaft length if needed.
or maybe I'll just leave well enough alone...
thanks for the advice though
Attach heavier points/heads.
Why do you feel you need heavier FoC? It hasn't been an issue since Agincourt. The short, square bodkin of c.1415 weighed about what the Bear Razorhead does. :biglaugh:
So, you increase head weight, reduce effective spine and then need stiffer arrows. Chasing your tail.
QuoteOriginally posted by bobman:
I dont have a clue what my current FOC is I think I'll just try the brass inserts and experiment with my shaft length if needed.
or maybe I'll just leave well enough alone...
thanks for the advice though
The brass inserts will increase FOC, and/or the screw-in BH adaptors for glue-on heads will add 75-125 grains up front, too. You could, potentially, add 225 grains with both.
You know what they say, if it ain't broke........
QuoteOriginally posted by bobman:
I dont have a clue what my current FOC is I think I'll just try the brass inserts and experiment with my shaft length if needed.
or maybe I'll just leave well enough alone...
thanks for the advice though
You need to find out what your FOC is "now" with your 2216s. Your 2216s weigh 12 GPI (grains per inch). My 2117s weigh 12 GPI (grains per inch). You're already shooting a heavy arrow and I suspect your GPP (grains per pound) is already high. Probably between 10-12 GPP. In other words, with your 2216s, what you gain in FOC is going to increase GPP which is going to give you a slower arrow in terms of fps (feet per second). Find out what your GPP is as well. Then, shoot your arrows with the higher tip weight for FOC and see how much arrow drop there is with the increased GPP at the yardages you usually shoot at live game.
If you don't shoot past 20 yards, you might like the 2216s arrows with the higher FOC, but slower in speed.
Here is a simple little trick to bump it up some. Use 4 inch - 4 fletch in RH. They have the same surface control area as 3 - 5 inch fletch. Plenty to control that arrow and broadhead.
If your want to get serious about FOC your gonna have to change to carbon shafts. If you want to bump it up a bit then go to a heavier adapter and smaller fletch. More weight up front and less in back = more foc. On the other hand if what you have is working, is it worth the headache of having to relearn your arrow trajectory? I use EFOC arrows since I hunt elk, and bear on an annual basis. If I only hunted deer I would not worry about it.
Until FOC meets and/or exceeds 19% you will not be able to discern a measureable difference. Of my limited experience, 25% is extremely noticeable and 32% is an eye opener.
The easeiest way to achieve EFOC and Ultra-EFOC, of which I am aware, of is to start with Victory Forve HV shafts.
400 - 6.2 gpi
350 - 6.7 gpi
300 - 6.9 gpi
3 Rivers sells the PDP weight system. I have used them and they work fine. But they have some things to note.
First, they require you buy special inserts that are threaded so you can screw the weights in behind the insert. They are pretty cheap, though.
Since these are behind the insert you get more FOC and the spine is weakened but it is not weakened as much as if the weight was forward more.
Also, they tend to spin themselves loose. I just put a glob of wax on them when I install the insert and weights. Adds a couple more grains but not a lot and it keeps them from loosening.
The quickest, easiest, and cheapest way I know to increase FOC to "just see what happens", is to insert either a bullet of the correct weight/diameter (if you know someone who handloads they're easy to get) behind the insert and hot melt glue it in place, or do the same with a few lead pellet gun pellets. You may also try a piece of brass brazing rod from a welding supply store.
Rigging 2 or 3 arrows in this "down and dirty" test will at least let you see how the arrows react without a lot of time and money invested.
Another vote for the heavy steel broadhead adapter.
Bobman,
Here's an idea that I can't take credit for. I was shooting some 2117's that I bought. I broke one found why they were shooting so well. Behind the insert was a screw shaft. It had been screwed into the back of the insert, I imagine some glue had been used. The head had been cut off and electrical tape had been added to take up the space. Needless to say I've taken out all my inserts on my arrows and have copied this idea. The screw was about 1 1/2" long and it added about 110-115 grains. According to Stu's calculator it's just what the doctor ordered. Good luck.
-Jeremy :coffee:
Glad to read that, fdlz58! I bought a handful of screws the other day to put in my inserts if 100 grains of insert and 300 grains of BH isn't enough...but haven't cut the screw heads off yet.
There are brass inserts, threaded weights you can install on the backside of the inserts, brass washers that fit between the insert and the broadhead, OR if your broadheads are of the two part construction, like zwickeys are, you can remove the threaded part, melt some lead into the hollow of the broadhead, then glue the insert part back in.
You can also foot the arrow with a larger diameter shaft.
Many options.
What do you mean by..screw insert? Mike
I mean screw shaft? sorry
About 1/4" of threads are left in the insert once a head is screwed in. You can buy screws at the hardware store that will screw into the remaining threads in the insert, and cut off the head of the screw (which won't fit into the arrow shaft)...thereby leaving only the shaft (threaded part) of the screw. A 3.5" screw shaft will add 95-115 grains behind the insert. Make sense?
Well now, there's a snifty little trick that I had never heard of. Good job guys, I'll store that in my "Note to Self" folder for use on down the road. :thumbsup:
Here's a thought, couldn't you do the same thing with a small 75gr. field point? If it would fit inside the diameter of the arrow shaft, and if it wouldn't you could always turn them down with a file until the right wt. and diameter was achieved. I know it probably wouldn't work with carbon shafts but it's entirely doable with aluminum.
My 51# @ 28 w/1/8 cut past cent likes a Dynamic Spine of ~46#'s
There are three options that work for me.
Option 1
Victory HV350 28.5" has total. wt of 608 grains and 32.4% Ultra-EFOC
(100gn insert/300gn pt)
Option 2
Victory HV350 29.5" has total. wt of 565 grains and 30.1% Ultra-EFOC
(50gn insert/300gn pt)
Option 3
Victory HV400 29.0" has total. wt of 515 grains and 29.9% EFOC
(18gn insert/300gn pt)
The plan is to go with option 1.
Note: My FOC percentages are slightly higher than Stu's calculator since my fletchings are located 2.1"s from the nock throat.
QuoteOriginally posted by FerretWYO:
Three Rivers does have some brass inserts for aluminium arrows. You can also use heavier adapters in your broadhead. Any weight added to the front of your shaft will decrese the dynamic spine. It may take some tuning and you may have to shorten your shaft a little if you have room to do so.
This is your answer!
Bisch
The problem is,they don't make a 100 gr brass insert to fit 2216's.
I think you are shooting yourself in the foot by insisting on using the aluminum shafts you already have.I stubbornly tried the same thing but finally wised up,sold the aluminums and got carbons that would do what I wanted.
I think with the spine of your arrows and the heavy weight of your bows,you won't be able to get enough front end weight and still be tuned,to increase FOC enough to make a difference.
QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
25% is extremely noticeable and 32% is an eye opener.
hey Friend, may I ask what you mean by eye opener?
screamin -
1. The Ultra-EFOC arrows have been the easiest for me to bareshaft tune. Normally, I have to perform some minor adjusting for BH's. I have had to make no ajustment so far. The Big 3's fly better than any of my numerous previous set-ups. They visably appear to correct much quicker than my 25% EFOC set-up. I actually had thought that I had the optimum arrow at 25% EFOC because I could measure the improvements. When moving up to Ultra-EFOC, the benefits became obvious.
2. They hit a bag as if I was shooting a significantly heavier set-up. Bag targets don't like them. Average bag targets wear out in less than half the time as when I was shooting normal FOC.
3. The Big 3's (1 1/2 dia) dig deeper in my rhinehart 18 in 1 than when I was shooting 2 blade heads with similar wt and @ 4#'s heavier draw and @ 22% EFOC. I believe that the Rhineharts 1 yr warranty could be easily challenged.
5. Just pulling shafts w/field points from a foam target has become a greater challenge and I am more selective of which type targets I practise with. Never did this before.
Many benefits on paper generate sales and yet we may never truely experience the improvement. In no way do I state this is gospel, however I can easily discern the benefits of Ultra-EFOC instead having to take for granted what is on paper.