Several recent threads regarding relative bow weights and killing big game touched a raw nerve for me. I agree with the comments pointing out needlessly increasing margin of error and possibly courting disaster with ineffectual bow weights.
We see an occasional thread about a poor hit, or even a "good" hit that ends in unrecovered game. Sometimes I wonder, in reality, how often that occurs and is never mentioned. Even with commonly accepted totally sufficient bow weights, the other important variables such as arrow tuning that factor into the "penetration equation" are frequently never addressed. How many deer or other big game animals are last seen fleeing the shot with two, three or four inches of shaft penetration? IMHO, respect for the animal should be paramount. Taking wingshots at larger game with minimally weighted bows, improperly tuned shafts, improper broadheads, etc. is not only naive, but entirely disrespectful to the life and beauty of the animal. Size the equipment to the animal. There are plenty of rabbits, squirrels and the like to kill - - or better yet, stumps, paper and foam. Not trying to be negative toward anyone in particular. Maybe it has something to do with the 4 seasons in the life of a bowhunter.
Respectfully,
Dick
I completely agree.
There's a point where light bows, too light of an arrow, and poor shooting results in lost animals.
I've seen it many times on hunting shows where usually the wife or girlfriend of the guy who the tv show belongs to. Using a 40lb. bow (or less) and arrows the size of soda straws (and not much heavier) hits a deer in the shoulder and it runs off with what appears like the entire shaft waving back and forth with maybe only the broadhead embedded in the deer?
Then they miraculously show her posing with the animal moments later. It really makes me wonder how much later it was when they finally found it?
And I wonder if it required the use of tracking dogs to find it?
Light poundage + light arrow + poor shooting = Failure
:thumbsup:
Unless you are a good enough shot to make brain+double eye shots frequently, you need some punch behind the arrow.
I'm not saying only ppl like RagingWater should be able to hunt Rabbits, as that would exclude 99% of us from bow hunting;)
I have the upmost respect for the animals I hunt... but not all people can draw 55 and 60# bows. That would really limit people that want to deer hunt. I know a fella whose wife shoots a 36# Bear bow and the first doe she shot, got a complete pass through! I think alot of it has to do with proper tuning. As long as I can shoot bows in the 50 or 60# range I will, but I'm not gonna give up when I get alittle older and have to go down in weight. Plus I wouldnt' want to discourage kids just because they can't pull 55# bow's! JMHO! Jason
couldn't have said it better, dick. :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Covey:
I have the upmost respect for the animals I hunt... but not all people can draw 55 and 60# bows. That would really limit people that want to deer hunt. I know a fella whose wife shoots a 36# Bear bow and the first doe she shot, got a complete pass through! I think alot of it has to do with proper tuning. As long as I can shoot bows in the 50 or 60# range I will, but I'm not gonna give up when I get alittle older and have to go down in weight. Plus I wouldnt' want to discourage kids just because they can't pull 55# bow's! JMHO! Jason
imo, it's this kinda thinking that gets "us", trad bowhunting, in trouble.
if you can't employ proper trad tackle for the type of game hunted, use another form of weaponry. yes, really. no one said trad would be easy on many levels.
saying that a 36# bow is okay for deer hunting is a marginal statement at best, and not for newbies or amateurs. taking that same gear to stalk a 150# hog is, well, plain dumb.
do your own ethical assessment of your abilities and tackle and game hunted.
Excellent post!
I agree completely and think about this often. One issue is equipment. The other recovery. I am convinced that all fatally hit game can be recovered if the proper woodsmansip and follow up is applied. I am also convinced there is too much focus on light equipment using starting with the premise that broadheads kill by hemorage which I am not a fan of. Broadheads will kill by hemorage but I'll take the pneumothorax every day. But hey don't want to highjack your thread but you guys can hunt with me ANY time.
Good Hunting<><
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That is the exact reason I have an open mind regarding other styles of bows "invading" our sport Rob, we all deserve to hunt. I generally keep my nose out of these topics, but this one has been nagging! If you cant pull 40+ pounds, choose another way to fling arrows until you can. We talk about how good a 35# bow would work if the hit was perfect, if the broad head was razor sharp, if the animal was within "x" distance and so on, then we hand that same bow to an unexperinenced hunter and expect perfect decisions from them? I say unexperienced hunters because generally, not always, unexperinenced or young hunters shoot very light bows. My son is 12 and he has yet to bow hunt with his bow in hand, he cant get over 30-35#, I wont set him up for failure and he understands why. We have a very nice wheeled contraption hanging at his disposal, he chooses to wait until he is strong enough to do it "his way"..
You all have made very good points, and I don't have anything additional to say except that I concur with the rational that you must use enough equipment properly tuned, and the hunter must be"properly tuned", to give the animal an honorable harvest.
Thank you for your concerns, and input, I hope more tradgangers read this.
one of the best game laws IMO is the minimum draw weight on bows, in Ohio 45# is the minimum you can legally hunt deer with, I think that is a great law, as said above there are other ways to fling arrows, and the animal should not have to suffer because of our pride.
QuoteOriginally posted by dick sable:
IMHO, respect for the animal should be paramount.
There are plenty of rabbits, squirrels and the like to kill - -
Respectfully,
Dick
I'm trying to see if you actually meant we need to respect big game and not small game with the shots we take?
Personally I dont see how a deer has any more sentient value than a ground squirrel or a zucchini. Therefore we need to make a conscious effort to make quick and ethical kills in any given circumstance.
if the shot is not a high percentage shot, it should not be taken. Period. If given data, past experiences and testing conclude, your bow weight is not enough; it should not be used. Period.
I will stand back and allow other people determine what weight is not enough. It seems as if these arguments always have a sliding scale of what is and what isn't based on peoples personal opinion.
I know my set up is sufficient. May mistakes happen? Yes! that is natures way.
I see squirrels fall out of trees by accident. I see pike miss or maim their prey by accident. I see deer and goats that fall off cliffs, by accident. So if a twig deflects and arrow that you did not see, or an elephant jumps your string and the shot placement is poor; it happens. It doesn't make you feel any better but we chose our weaponry and our limitations. ;)
I am not jumping down Dicks throat as I'm not sure I interpreted his post correctly. This debate over weight is wishy, washy and will never go away. Its like abortion and religious debates. There are far to many people with opinions. There may not be a right answer.
This is why, any one who wants to attack my stance, go ahead because I know I am right.... And so are you ! :readit: :thumbsup: :campfire: And further more, I would probably still share camp with you.
:archer:
QuoteOriginally posted by Cory Mattson:
Excellent post!
One issue is recovery. I am convinced that all fatally hit game can be recovered if the proper woodsmansip and follow up is applied.
But hey don't want to highjack your thread but you guys can hunt with me ANY time.
Good Hunting<><
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I agree with Corey!
Oh boy, this is gonna get interesting. :coffee: :o
Size the equipment to the animal. Quote
i didn't take Dick's post to mean squirrels and such were not animals whose lives should not be respected. i took it to mean if you could only shoot light weight bows, then hunt the appropriate animal with that weight. :wavey:
Here is a quote That I can and do totally agree with!!
Rob-"do your own ethical assessment of your abilities and tackle and game hunted".
Having said that, I'll take accuracy and penetration over all else.
I want to be as close as possible when I drop the string and the animal has to be in the right position or it's still "no shot".
Happy New Year!!
God bless
Roy L "Mudd" Williams
Wow, sorry but I disagree with Rob 100%. I know people who have killed bears and deer with bow weights in the high 30s and low 40# weights! If someones bow is properly tuned and they shoot razor sharp heads and limit their shot to no more than 20 yards and 15 is better no reason they should not hunt a lot of big game!! Moose have been taken with 45# bow weights. I bet there are alot more deer hit and lost with a lot heavier bows, because more people shoot heavy weights and make poor shots than with people who shoot 35 to 40# bows because most of those folks know their limits and are more careful than th others!! Sorry, but for an Admin. of a traditional site to post those comments is odd to me. Wait til your 75 and want to stay in the Trad game and can only shoot 35 to 40#s and than tell us how ya feel!! Shawn
Here we go... :scared:
Some good points made here,and I agree with them,to a point.Sending someone to the woods with light tackle,or any archery gear in the hands of someone who is not proficient IS irresponsable. If that hunter is not profiecient, then a bow that is 5 or 10 lbs heavier will rarely if ever make up for a poor shot or an irresponsabe shot.
It has been said many times that a properly tuned bow,arrow and bradhead combination is a very lethal weapon.If you do not believe that just go to my website and watch Tracy put down deer and bear quickly and humanely.She has killed 5 deer and a bear with 40lbs bow @ 25" of drawlength.Only 2 were not complete pass throughs.1 hit the off side shoulder and the other was the MN doe in the video that droped at the shot.The arrow went in the deer midway up the left side of the deer and as the deer droped it lodged in the spine.Yes the deer was down instantly and dead in just a couple of seconds.
One thing people have to keep in mind is not all set ups are created equal.I have the benefit of being able to build Tracy a bow that is designed for max performance at her 25" drawlength.This helps,obviously you can never completley make up for the loss of drawlength when you compare a 25" drawlength to a 30" drawlength.It just is not possable.However, when you combine a bow designed for her 25" drawlength and a 450 grain arrow.Not just any 450 grain arrow,an arrow assembled using Dr.Ashby's prinicpals.You end up with a very lethal combination.
Ofcourse, there are obvious limits.She would never head out to tie into a 250 lbs. hog with this set up.It just is not up to that task.She knows that,and accepts those limits.A whitetail,turkey,or even bear are well within her tackles limits.
One thing I have learned through my experiences in traditional archery.There are very few blanket statements that can be made.There are just to many veriables.That is why each case has to be taken as such.A different case.I dont mean this to sound sour,because its not.That is just the way it is.
Respectfully
Bill
I am a firm beleiver that there are very few men that cannot shoot a 45# recurve. I led a move in the late 70's to establish a minimum bow weight of 45# for biggame in Kansas and got it enacted. It has since been taken off the books by others.There are too many people that don't want to put forth the effort to keep in shape and shoot everyday or every other day to keep their muscles toned and their shooting sharp. Alot just look for an easy way out of any endeaver they take. I personally have never bowhunted with less than 50# bow and when the day comes that I can no longer hunt with at least a 45#er I will resign myself to small game and targets.
This is a tough topic, plenty of disagreements.
In my opinion there are far more deer wounded because of poor shot selection and poor shooting skills than poor penetration.
I am ashamed to admit that in the past I have hit deer in the shoulder using a 75# compound and not recovered the animal, so poundage will not make up for a bad hit.
I agree we should shoot max weight possible, but must shoot it accurately.
Taking shots beyond our accurate range, shots with animal in wrong position, shooting at alert animals, or shooting thru limbs and brush is the cause of most bad hits.
A lot of guys get so nervous at the time of the shot, they do not pick a spot, some shake so bad they can barely stand, higher poundage will not help them.
The equipment and shot are one thing, having the ability and knowledge to track is another. Unfortunately, a third is the commitment to find the animal. I've seen the third as a problem way too many times, with hunters giving up after 15 minutes. Good thread.
just to put my thoughts out there , as a new trad archer and later today a trad hunter , but a gun/wheelie bow hunter. there were disciplines instilled in me by my father.
he taught me to respect your animal's life. use the right equipment for the circumstances. and if you dont have a good shot , dont shoot.
i have never had an issue . i have also never shot a deer. seen a bunch , but i was never fully confident in the shot , so i didnt take it.
at the end of the day , if you wound an animal , you track it till you find it. you owe it to that animal. if you dont track it , youre the one who has to live with that decision . if i see a wounded animal , i pu it out of its misery (i have done this twice , but i dont consider it getting an animal hunting).
as far as poundage of bows , i dont want to speculate what is a good draw weight , because there are so many other factors. like has been said before , id rather you shoot a 45# bow that you can bullseye every time , opposed to a 60lb bow you cant even hold form when drawn...
-hov
I was not trying to stir the pot or anything just stating facts. KSbowman, when has hunting become only a mans sport? There are plenty of women and young men in states that allow bowhunting at 12 years old or younger and a lot of those women and young men cannot shoot more than 40#s. Just look at Bills(ZipperBows) post, that says it all! I look on the good side of folks and honestly believe that when they shoot those low weights they know and learn their limits pretty quick and hunt ethically. Shawn
There's more to it then just Trad gear. When I lived in Jersey the place I hunted was right next to a person that didn't allow trespassers. I lost a few deer from them run over to that land.
I even had a CO go with me and the guy told him... If there is a dead deer on My, that is where it will lay... The CO took him off to the side and was talking with Him, Then came back and told Me the guy will let me recover My deer for a fee.. The CO told how much and even said it was out of this world. So when deer ran on that land they where gone...
BTW Ohio has a 40# limit.. I see this all the time Speed is overrated...and your need a 2 blade 600+ gr. arrow. I have seen 60# bows with badly turned arrows and broadheads that should not be shot at any big game...Us with shoot draws need all the help we can get. There are 40# bows out there that will out shoot (Speed) other bows of the same pounds. So speed is inportant.broudhead weight next (heavy sharp). A heavy tip will out penatrate a light tip everytime. Low pounds and short draw, Buy the fastest bow you can and shoot a heavy head (250++)lightest shaft that will tune properly.
Bill and Tracy work at getting Tracy's setup right and it works.My last doe was 43# @26 and that is all I can get, 300 gr. 3blade Ultra light shaft......25yrds 2 holes 100yrds trail job. If you can shoot more poundage very, very comfortable and accurate, good for you.
here is something else to throw in the mix, cherokee scout nailed it, traditional archers are generally pretty poor shots, if you don't think so pay attention next time you go to a 3-d shoot. When I look around at a shoot I can't help thinking that a large number of the shooters really should not be shooting at live animals. Hopefully they know that and are using other means to hunt but just having fun at a shoot. We need to quit using traditional as an excuse for poor shooting.
When i was ten years old my father told me if i can shoot all my arrows in a 3D deers kill zone he would take me hunting this fall so i shot and shot and shot then finally i was shooting good enough were he thought i could do it my hunting bow was a Bear alaskan 45# at 28'' now i just asked my dad how many pounds he thought i would have been pulling then and he just told me about 30 pounds well hunting season went on and no shots were taken and at this time i was snap shooting BUT every time were got to were we were hunting i would do a practice pull and so time gos on and i turn 11 and so now ill get to the hunt we went on our first morning hunt to my fathers favorite tree stand and when i got up to the stand i thought no way i am not going all the way up there then right at that moment i heard deer coming and so i went up the tree as fast as i could then time gos by and bucks are going every were and my father did a bleat call and this nice young buck is coming on a trail at 5 yards away from the tree and its just perfect and right when i was going to let it fly my Dad thought to him self im going to shoot right over its back but i picked my spot got to full draw double lunged the deer the arrow went thru both sides ran 30 yards or so and died.
Now from what i read from some of you guys you would have never have giving me a chance and said its a lost cause.
My father is the greatest and gave me a chance, that deer is now hanging nicely in my room and with memories that will last forever.
Thanks and God bless.
While I agree with most on here, it all comes down to knowing your effective range... considering both your shooting ability and your equipment capability. I've had plenty of people tell me that "instinctive wounds too many deer", and this is always my answer. It doesn't matter if you're shooting a .300 WinMag, or using a pocket knife, it's all about knowing what your equipment can do, and what you can do with it.
My wife has taken 5 deer with a 40 lb 24" draw bow... and all but one was a full pass through.
Shawn, I too was not trying to stir the pot.I only stated my personal feelings and fully realize they don't always align with others.It has not became a man's sport,I was only using that as an example, but you should use equiptment to do the job everytime you enter the woods to hunt. As stated above there is other equiptment available to use that for those that unable to use traditional.
I did not relate this earlier but about 5 years ago I had shoulder surgery. I wengt out and bought a 38# Widow, which was 41#s at my draw. I pride myself in being able to tune my bow and arrow combo and got perfect flight from a 600spine with 175 grains up front, I was shooting a bit less than 8gpp. and a 4 blade steelforce. I killed 4 deer that year with that set-up one being a buck that dressed at 167#s. I got 2 holes one every deer and complete pass thrus on 2, none went over 60 yards. I alsokilled a 42# coyote at close to 40 yards with e. the aroow entering the right ham and poking out in the center of the chest just right of the left shoulder. Sorry but don't tell me that light bows when properly tuned with proper shot selection won't kill deer and big deer. When I am old and grey and can only shoot 35#s, I will still be hunting deer and other game and limiting my shots to ones that I am confident I can put it in the goodies at close range. We all really need to stop using our traditional gear as an excuse for poor shooting, if ya can't put a razor sharp arrow into a 6" circle everytime at a given distance say 15yds. for light bows and out to 40yds. for heavy bow than don't shoot! Shawn
In my opinion there are far more deer wounded because of poor shot selection and poor shooting skills than poor penetration.
Thanks John, best statement of this thread so far.
Shawn, no pot stirring that I seen.
I can remeber my father and grandfather and their friends agreeing to disagree on the same subject back when. LOL
I think this is a good discussion and makes me re-think where I stand on this matter. Thanks.
Earl
Bow pounds to a point ain`t a really big deal on deer. It don`t take much to shoot through the lungs on one. I shoot 45-48 pound longbows. Mild r/d bows not known for blistering speed. 550 grain arrows and usually a big Magnus I broadhead. Recently I`ve been shooting ww heads.I shoot through everything I shoot at. A 35 lb hard shooting recurve or radical R/D with a 500 grain arrow and lets say a Grizzley or no mercy head would probably penetrate better than what I shoot now.
In my opinion accuracy is far more important than lbs. I`m not a good shot but if you pull up some of my post you`ll see I rarely kill a critter over 10 yards...15 is loonnnggg for me.I find everything I shoot at because I take close shots and can hit where I`m looking at that distance. At 20 yards I`m purty poor...thats why my shots are about HALF THAT DISTANCE!!!!
If we could come up with something to hook on a fellas bow that won`t let him shoot past what he can shoot a 6" group under pressure these type discussions would go away.RC
We all know that most people will not, or cannot, obtain the strength or the skill or the proper equipment to hunt as traditional archers. That is one of many reasons we should not be elitist when other folks use compounds, crossbows, or firearms. Everyone needs to use equipment that will result in ethical kills. All of us here enjoy shooting trad equipment, but there are always situations that will cause us to give it up, either temporarily or permanently, like injury, disease or age. Hopefully, we can all continue to enjoy being out in the woods hunting, even if we have to use other means of harvesting game animals. First and foremost, we need to be sure to always maintain solidarity with everyone who promotes our outdoor hunting and fishing heritage, or we are at great risk of losing it! Second, don't feel bad about needing to use something other than traditional archery equipment to hunt if you are not able to shoot well enough or heavy enough to have clean kills. There is nothing wrong with confining yourself to using trad equipment for shooting inanimate targets. Presumably, that is what we are all shooting most of the time anyway.
Allan
I totally agree with Bob Morrison's comments. As I recall, he was one of the very first to advocate the heavy weight forward system. Rob DiStefano knows more about heavy FOC than the vast majority of trad shooters. Bill has a unique situation in which to build the perfect bow for the circumstance. All priceless advice. That said, the point is that most folks shooting bows in the 35-40# range would be well advised to take the time and effort to duplicate this tuning/ballistics expertise as it has had had proven results. Alas, IMOH, that does not always happen - more frequently these bows are shot with whatever shaft/weight combination seems to shoot well and is available, (often combined with very short power strokes), and predictable results.
BTW, I've enjoyed hearing everyone's unique viewpoints.
Dick
QuoteOriginally posted by hogdancer:
here is something else to throw in the mix, cherokee scout nailed it, traditional archers are generally pretty poor shots, if you don't think so pay attention next time you go to a 3-d shoot. When I look around at a shoot I can't help thinking that a large number of the shooters really should not be shooting at live animals. Hopefully they know that and are using other means to hunt but just having fun at a shoot. We need to quit using traditional as an excuse for poor shooting.
You also need to account for the fact that while at the 3-d shoots most of these guys that you don't think belong in the woods shooting at any animal probably aren't going to be taking 30 to 50 yard shots on any animals in the woods and a lot of these shots are common at 3-d shoots.
Should you size your equipment to your game? I would try to, but maybe say Mudd for instance can shoot a golf ball at 50 yards every shot and I can only hit one at 20. Who am I to tell him his equipment isn't good enough?
The statement was made that Ohio has a #40 draw limit which is correct. However, Texas has no minimum draw weight requirement, so who's right and if neither then where's the happy medium.
A bad shot is a bad shot no matter what it's shot out of. I think it's a little unethical myself to feel that it's ok to substitute practice and shot placement with going up 20 pounds in bow weight so you can blow through a shoulder blade. How about we practice not hitting the shoulder to start with.
All said, if you've been in the woods any amount of time at all you've probably at one time or another lost an animal and everyone here knows that it can happen even under perfect circumstances. Don't fool yourself into believing you're more ethical or a better hunter because you've never lost an animal. Sometimes crap happens.
Like others have said, no matter your thoughts, I'd still hunt with all of ya. :thumbsup:
Isn't minimal weight in Colorado 35#? If I'm not mistaken, Colorado has some pretty big animals.
Mike Treadway shot through an elk with one of his 41# bows. I think shot placement, well tuned arrows with scary sharp points and knowing your equipment and being able to shoot well are the keys to success.
I shoot around 55#@26" and shoot cane or hardwood arrows(600gr to 700gr) with stone or trade points. If anything doesn't work well I don't use it. If I can't hit the kill zone at 20yds with any of it I wouldn't hunt! Everything else is up to chance
Dick your last statement does not apply to trad. bows with just low draw weights it applies to all trad bows. I have been to many shoots and have held a trad bow hunt for years and to be honest I would not shoot 70% of most peoples set ups are due to the poor arrow flight they get. That goes for bows from 25# to 100#s. Shawn
lots of people on here know lots about arrows and set-ups and FOC stuff and the mechanics of shooting, but when talking about shooting at game and what works it's folks like RC that I listen to. Guys that put NUMEROUS animals down know what works. This is after all the internet
Ok just talked to my father about it and got the bow out it was about 25# not 30#
Yeah it's all about recovery, bad things can happen to great hunters with the right equipment and the right skills... probably with more frequency than the occasional improperly trained and equipted bowhunter as it just takes too much commitment to do what it takes to even get a shot at a deer...so most people that make that commitment but make a grievous mistake crippling game while bowhunting will not take the experience lightly vs. other segments of hunting community. ANyway, it's also about mentoring people. I know as a very recent convert to trad archery I have not exactly had any welcome advice from the local folks and had to basically beg a guy at the local hunting store to help me out - who shoots a longbow occassionally and knew a little and took some time at his workplace to set up the bow and give some some pointers.
Unless you have some type of illness or injury most grown men can pull a 60 lb bow and shoot it accurately if they work at it, proper tuning is fine but a heavier bow properly tuned will be better. I'm no hercules and almost 60 and I shoot bows around 70lb with no problem.
Fred Bear was a skinny old guy and he shot 70lbs well up in his senior years.
A marginal shot with a heavy bow might end up with a kill because of better penetration.
Just my opinion I dont realy concern myself with what other people want to do.
Even with 70lbs I limit myself to 25 yards or less most of my kills have been under 15 yards.
I do exercise year round and incorporate my shooting into my exercise rountine.
Buckeye trad hunter, I go to 2 traditional shoots a year where the average shot is 15 yds and the longest is 35 and I have to agree with Hogdancer the shooting is pathetic. My old age may be showing but when someone can't hit the vitals at 15 yds a least 50% of the time they don't belong in the woods. The animals deserve better.
Hogdancer is correct. With setup perfect and you can hit the 10 ring every shot on your foam deer. A real living animal changes the whole game. And unfortunatly you can't learn this by reading BH or even by reading every post on TG. You have to kill actual animals, the more you kill the better you get. This don't soundgood, but it is fact. I also hear respect of the animal. You can respect their ability to hide, avoid your efforts to make steak out of them. If you really respected the animals we would not be trying to kill them.Should make you nervice when anyone say they respect you???
QuoteOriginally posted by RC:
If we could come up with something to hook on a fellas bow that won`t let him shoot past what he can shoot a 6" group under pressure these type discussions would go away.RC
RC, that device would be known as a brain. Unfortunately a lot of people are missing the device.
QuoteOriginally posted by mnbwhtr:
Buckeye trad hunter, I go to 2 traditional shoots a year where the average shot is 15 yds and the longest is 35 and I have to agree with Hogdancer the shooting is pathetic. My old age may be showing but when someone can't hit the vitals at 15 yds a least 50% of the time they don't belong in the woods. The animals deserve better.
I agree that they should be able to hit the vitals at 15yds. at least 50% of the time. But are we talking about 50% of the first few targets or the last few? Maybe they have poor stamina. Last time I checked I didn't shoot 30 times at a deer. What do these people score on their very first arrow?
50%
I Think it is very easy to not look behind the poundage of the bow!
As some of you know we did a test with low bow-weight on a deer scapula, that showed good results for low poundage bow.
Here is a thought:
Nathan aka buejeger was shooting a Border Black Douglas Hex V 42@29, with a 650 grain arrow with a foc of 26%.
The momentum was 0,45.
He have the same momentum with the same arrow with his Black Widow PSA 51@29.
Do you think the deer or whatever he kills will know the difference?
I also do believe it is easier to pull 42# than 51#.
BUT you have to know your setup.
If you use a 40# bow with low performance, well then you should go higher in bow-weight, but if you like many other have a high performance recurve or longbow with properly arrow setup, well in my opinion go for it.
Margly
Point well made, and taken.
QuoteOriginally posted by dick sable:
IMHO, respect for the animal should be paramount. Taking wingshots at larger game with minimally weighted bows, improperly tuned shafts, improper broadheads, etc. is not only naive, but entirely disrespectful to the life and beauty of the animal.
Dick
Taking wingshots at larger game (any game for that matter. A hail mary shot on a rabbit is no less disrepectful than one on a P & Y buck) is just as disrespectful with minimal bow weights as it is with heavier bow weights, Same with improper broadheads, improperly tuned shafts, etc.
Within reason, bow weight is irrelevant to the issue of "respect for the animal". As long as the arrows are flying true, and the broadheads are sharp, a shot to the ribcage with a 40lb bow will result in nothing different that one with a 70 lb bow. Same with a shot to the ham, the gut, or the leg.
Arrows kill by hemorrage, not shock. Any organ or vessel that will result in sufficient bleeding is readily accessible by minimal amounts of penetration. Non lethal hits will not be helped by heavier weights. Wild animals do strange things resulting in bad outcomes regardless weapon choice or size. True "respect for the animal" manifests itself much more in proficiency than weight, and knowing the limits of both your equpment and yourself. Respect should never be confused with bravado.
These threads make me laugh. Same as the baiting threads. Some people take hunting way too seriously. Hunting is supposed to be fun....granted, I want to kill efficiently and effectively, but I also keep an open mind and a lighthearted disposition.
Well said Bob M Bowbldr, Bill D Zipper, Ronny E Margly, and Jeffrey W. Turkeys fear me, I share your opinions !
This topic is ageless and will NEVER be resolved because there are too many components that affect the arguement. And we are all too opinionated to be adequately objective, are we not? But, here's one question that might put an interesting (and maybe even compelling) twist on the issue.
At what bow weight, or arrow weight, or shot distance, or (fill in the blank) would you be willing to try and kill a game animal if the CONSEQUENCE of wounding that animal meant that something you hold in high PERSONAL esteem would be harmed in a SIMILAR way? For example, what if every time you stuck a deer through the guts a similar wound would be caused on, say, your favorite family pet. An arrow through the guts of that affectionate critter that meets you at the door every day. A serious, painful, slow and agonizing death. If failure to execute your shot of choice with an 'on the edge' approach brought this result, would you STILL be as likely to take the RISK involved in such a horrible consequence? Would you still be willing to DEFEND the 'it's all up to each of us to decide' kind of approach, with Fido (like the deer) laying out back and suffering through the consequences of YOUR actions and choices? Would you be willing to roll the dice for that shot under odds that, even if not marginal, are far from optimum and perhaps not even average?
It's easy to bet the farm when you're using house money. It's even easier to suggest that it's our right to make our own shot choices. An unfortunate problem with freedom of choice here is that the consequences are not always paid by the perpetrator (shooter) but rather by the 'perpetratee' (the game animal) and by those who provide the opportunity (i.e., those who buy licenses and make it possible for us all to hunt those same game animals and to enjoy this wonderful sport).
It's all too easy to make a statement that "This is adequate". We all know someone who tried this bow weight or that shot distance, and it actually worked. That time. Maybe a few times. But equating "This is adequate" to "This is a good idea" is a whole different thing. What if the consequences were more 'real' to you and to yours? Do you still want to roll those dice and trust that it works?
Just some friendly advice for your consideration(no foul intended), but when we attempt to take an animal we all need to 'make it personal'. Shoot close. Shoot gear that matches the need. Learn skills. Stay within the tradition and limits of the sport. Because to the animal and to the rest of us who'd really like to keep the tradition of respecting these animals an icon of what hunting is supposed to be all about....it IS personal.
Quoteimo, it's this kinda thinking that gets "us", trad bowhunting, in trouble.
if you can't employ proper trad tackle for the type of game hunted, use another form of weaponry. yes, really. no one said trad would be easy on many levels.
saying that a 36# bow is okay for deer hunting is a marginal statement at best, and not for newbies or amateurs. taking that same gear to stalk a 150# hog is, well, plain dumb.
do your own ethical assessment of your abilities and tackle and game hunt
[/QUOTEed.]
So you are saying and others that I at 60 having had cancer 8 years ago and breaking my bow arm one year ago Jan3. should just hang it up. As for not trying I have shot almost daily since they let me after my arm healed and have not been able to get to a point that I can shot more than 35-38 lbs. Thanks for your post RC
To me, the ultimate setup is the heaviest bow you can shoot accurately. For me that is 55# right now.
If you can make an accurate shot with a well tuned 35# bow then you can kill a whitetail.
The first deer I took when I was a youngster was with a 35# Browning. So I know 35# is heavy enough. I don't know if it would break the shoulder but I don't worry about that... I am not trying to hit the shoulder.
I think using a heavier bow to compensate for poor tuning and accuracy is going in the wrong direction. Drop down a little in weight and work on putting the arrow where you want it.
Sorry but these "if you can't do it like we do it don't do it".
The one variable is always the archer. A seasoned hunter that is calm and methodical will tend to be able to do what needs to be done in the moment more effectively than someone who is struggling to maintain composure. That tends to be regardless of method of harvest. Having said that, the seasoning comes from experience.
I think that the stage of a hunter is something to bear in mind. I have seen some come to trad a little too soon. They are still more into outcome (animal down means everything) versus process (enjoying the full experience). The mindset of the hunter will often dictate shot choices and how they are carried out. A poor choice is still a poor choice.
When i can no longer carry my trad tools, and be effective... well i guess i will cross that bridge when i get there...
Agreed 100%, I think that is why we shoot the equipment we do. Not to say there are not "those" type of people in trad archery.
Good point Jeff (Turkeys fear me). If everyone took it so seriously regarding proficiency we'd all be better off. Wing shots at running rabbits usually does no harm whatever, IMHO.
Tony (TSP), absolutely right on! I totally agree, it is very personal. Just watch Primal Dreams!
Most of you have said the same thing and I agree. It's that little piece of meat between your ears that will say let go or no shot. The main problem as I see it, there is so much pressure on people to kill a deer or what ever that people take marginal shots. I say enjoy the process and the kill will come when thing are right.
Lots of good stuff said.
QuoteOriginally posted by Claymore:
So you are saying and others that I at 60 having had cancer 8 years ago and breaking my bow arm one year ago Jan3. should just hang it up. As for not trying I have shot almost daily since they let me after my arm healed and have not been able to get to a point that I can shot more than 35-38 lbs. Thanks for your post RC
I sure don't want to draw the line on what the minimum set up is for hunting any particular animal, but at some point we need to be realistic about our capabilities. I am just about a year and a half from 60, nearly died from stage 4 cancer, have had my right shoulder rebuilt, shattered my left collar bone and injured my left shoulder in a big fall, just had knee surgery two weeks ago, and have problems in both my elbows that make it difficult and painful for me to shoot my bows. Even so, I am doing well in many respects and have been blessed by God to still be here and currently be able to continue to shoot my bows to some extent. But at some time in life, everyone reaches a point where physical limitations prevent us from engaging in certain physical activities. If we live long enough, that means all of us will have to eventually "hang it up". I don't know when that time will come, but when it does with bow hunting, I hope to be able to accept that fact and deal with it. I expect I will be able to participate in target and stump shooting long after I have had to give up bow hunting, and I think I will be able to hunt with a gun or crossbow for longer too; however, there is a time to accept reality -- whenever that day arrives. Keep working at it Claymore. With your determination I believe you have many more years left to be out hunting with your trad bows! :thumbsup: :archer2:
Allan
Thanks Allen. Seems we have both had our share. I agree with everything you have said. All I have done for the past year is target shoot. And I too want to be able to say enough when the time comes, just don't want anyone else to tell me. I hope this year does not bring you anymore issues. God bless. Clyde
I think a lot of the misunderstanding with light weight bows and the fact of just how effective they are on deer size game is the lack of experience using them. In my younger days all my bows were between 65 and 85 pounds. Due to a multitude of surgeries and injuries I was forced to go to lighter weight. Now all my bows are 41-43 pounds that I hunt with. With the proper set-up I am every bit as sucessful as I ever was and even more because I am more accurate due to the fact that I am in total control of the bow. Pass thru's are the norm on shots of 20 yds. and in, I have no need to shoot any further than that. I wish I had known earlier what I know now, I could have saved some of the scars I have. I do shoot high performance bows that are more efficient than some heavier bows that I have owned in the past. Bottom line shoot what you are comfortable with and use some common sense. Happy Hunting :thumbsup:
This post is rapidly taking on an evil twist. . testing and allowing only accomplished shooters to hunt.
I suggest that if you can't hit the bullseye 10 out of 10 at 100 yards, you shouldn't be in the woods. You owe it to. . something, not sure what.
Yes this is being very facitious, but the fact is. . who the heck are you to tell me I have to be able at YOUR set distance, and why shouldn't that open the door for someone else to pick THEIR distance ?
And if I CAN hit 10 out of 10 at 100 yards. . who is policing me to make sure I don't take 150 yard shots ?
This is where that brain thing comes in.
Watch out what you wish for cause those making rules shoot guns and compounds and the rules are different for them.
ChuckC
How can one encourage a kid when some folks are telling them they "have" to shoot 60# bows to be affective. I sure wouldnt' want some of you mentoring my son. Leave the ego's at home!! Jason
QuoteOriginally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Wow, sorry but I disagree with Rob 100%. I know people who have killed bears and deer with bow weights in the high 30s and low 40# weights! If someones bow is properly tuned and they shoot razor sharp heads and limit their shot to no more than 20 yards and 15 is better no reason they should not hunt a lot of big game!! Moose have been taken with 45# bow weights. I bet there are alot more deer hit and lost with a lot heavier bows, because more people shoot heavy weights and make poor shots than with people who shoot 35 to 40# bows because most of those folks know their limits and are more careful than th others!! Sorry, but for an Admin. of a traditional site to post those comments is odd to me. Wait til your 75 and want to stay in the Trad game and can only shoot 35 to 40#s and than tell us how ya feel!! Shawn
I agree 100%, Thanks' Shawn! Jason
A traditional site where its members are vehemently opposed to low poundage bows? Sounds like some of us want even more laws. What a joke! Isn't the low poundage argument what the antis and compounders use against us trad guys in the first place? Come on....Phil
Heck, if ya want to kill a deer with an atlatl I say go for it!....Phil
QuoteOriginally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Wow, sorry but I disagree with Rob 100%. I know people who have killed bears and deer with bow weights in the high 30s and low 40# weights! If someones bow is properly tuned and they shoot razor sharp heads and limit their shot to no more than 20 yards and 15 is better no reason they should not hunt a lot of big game!! Moose have been taken with 45# bow weights. I bet there are alot more deer hit and lost with a lot heavier bows, because more people shoot heavy weights and make poor shots than with people who shoot 35 to 40# bows because most of those folks know their limits and are more careful than th others!! Sorry, but for an Admin. of a traditional site to post those comments is odd to me. Wait til your 75 and want to stay in the Trad game and can only shoot 35 to 40#s and than tell us how ya feel!! Shawn
Agree with you 100% Shawn
Shawn and R.C....I agree totally with your posts..... R.C., looking forward to seeing you this week in G.A.....
QuoteThis post is rapidly taking on an evil twist. . testing and allowing only accomplished shooters to hunt.
I suggest that if you can't hit the bullseye 10 out of 10 at 100 yards, you shouldn't be in the woods. You owe it to. . something, not sure what.
Yes this is being very facitious, but the fact is. . who the heck are you to tell me I have to be able at YOUR set distance, and why shouldn't that open the door for someone else to pick THEIR distance ?
And if I CAN hit 10 out of 10 at 100 yards. . who is policing me to make sure I don't take 150 yard shots ?
This is where that brain thing comes in.
Watch out what you wish for cause those making rules shoot guns and compounds and the rules are different for them.
ChuckC
Rush couldn't have said it better. ;)
I'm just starting out, and I can tell you that I won't let that first arrow loose on an animal before I feel that I've developed the skills and everything is right for making a clean, respectful kill. I hope, when the time comes, I'm able to rise to the occasion.
I've seen enough to know that Trad archery isn't the most effective way to make a kill. What attracts me is that it presents a more level predator/prey playing field. A cannon ball to the vitals at 300 yards may be more efficient, but where's the respect in that?
I believe we should all strive to respect whatever animal we are hunting. I also believe not everyones ethics are the same , so regretfully if shooting under 40# bows are legal and even if it goes against my ethics I will stand up for that hunters legal rights as we can't and shouldn't be fighting each other. Now break a game law and you are no longer a hunter but a poacher.
I don't think this thread has developed an "evil twist" at all. Everyone's comments have been seemingly heartfelt, equally valid, and good food for thought.
The comments in the original thread were not to try to shove anything down anyone's throat regarding right or wrong. Initially, the reference was to questions involving whether 36# or 38# would kill large type deer. Nobody suggested everyone had to shoot 50-60 bows. As the thread progressed, it was noted that many individuals have been very successful with low 40's pound bows. For example, Bob Morrison has been on the cutting edge (no pun intended)with regard to tuning heavy FOC for extreme penetration efficiency at lower bow weights, and like others, has had proven success. It was suggested that it would be worthwhile to heed and experiment with those ideas. While it is not inexpensive relative to $$ or time, I do believe it is worth the effort.
I do second what Tracy (bigugly1)said about ethics. Other members' comments about the use of common sense and using your conscience as your guide also make sense to me.
Funny how conversations like this one can begin so well and become mercilessly twisted.
I hope all "tradgangers" continue to enjoy shooting and have a safe and good new year!
Dick
There is a uniquely American belief which suggests that bigger is always better. If "A" does well, then "AA" will do even better. If 40 lbs is good, 80 lbs will be REALLY good. If a .270 is sufficient, then a .300 mag is better. If 110 mph on your snowmobile is awesome, then 130 mph would be even awesomer.
For many, this is true for anything from truck tires, to bass boats, to hamburgers, to big screen TV's. It is part of their psyche. I'm not saying it's good or bad, it just is.
I'm sure some people could make an argument for for commuting to work in a Humvee. After all, it might snow, or there might be a mudslide, or there might be a riot, or, or, or...
There are even times when a Humvee is the only vehicle for the job. Like in war zones and natural disaster sites. Even then, sometimes it's not enough.
At the end of the day though, 99% of the time, your Chevy Malibu is all that's needed for commuting.
Same holds true with bows. If you're hunting elephants or water buffalo, you probably better use something more than 40 lbs. On the other hand If you're hunting whitetails, you don't really need a Humvee.
ttt
Guaranteed, an experienced hunter can get away w/things a novice can't. You nailed it however. Just respect the life of the animal & do your BEST to insure a quick clean kill. Be accountable of & to yourself.
Once you master your SHOT AND PRECISION CONSTANTLY,your bow,the set up is ACCURATE,LEATHAL,SHARP AND TOUGH BH,ARROW WEIGHT AND SPEED ETC.ETC... Don't be a shame because uncontrolable,unpredictable act of god happen as you shoot your prey.I know a woman who's in love with the bow and arrow but does not hunt with it because her draw weight is to low,she use black powder gun.
My son, Reed didn't bowhunt at all this year. He said to me, "Dad, with football and all I just haven't practiced enough." He gun hunted with me and we had a big time of it. I was proud of him for knowing his limits and respecting the animals we love to hunt enough to stick to them. It really brought tears to my eyes when he said it because I knew that he "got it." The problem is that there are a lot of people out there that don't.
I think you can consistently take game with modern traditional bows in the 40 pound range, but you have to know and respect the limitations of that equipment. There is a huge difference between someone who has worked hard to build up to 40 pounds and shoot it effectively and someone who picks up a 40 pund bow the day before the season because that is all they can pull back. How are you planning to police that? Does the second person have the "right" to hunt with a bow?
Apples don't fall far from the tree. Great stuff w/your son & knowing limits. You taught him well.