Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: $bowhunter$ on December 28, 2010, 02:30:00 PM
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im thinking of getting into wood arrows, what do you guys feel the advantages of wood are? it seems there a little more affordable than my alum. that i currently shoot. ive seen POC and douglus fir shafts. id use either to learn i just want to know the advantages of wood over alum./carbon arrows?
thanks,
steven
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The fun of making them up. The selection and straightening process. The smell of tapering them (I full-length taper them with a razor plane/Bowyer's Edge). The satisfaction of staining and cresting them. Fletching them up nice and colorful.
I just enjoy wood. The traditional aspect is rewarding when you smack a deer with an arrow you "knew from birth".
When you factor in your own time and the cost of them anymore there is no real savings vs. aluminum. They are less consistant (and therefore less accurate) than aluminum or carbon. And they break. But so do carbon and aluminum bends and splits.
But then you get to make more!
More of a challenge - and that is why we are here. :D
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I feel like I can get a wood arrow tuned to my bow easier. I'm not saying that the other materials can't be tuned just as well, just that, for some reason, I can get a wood shaft (tapered or parallel) tuned easier.
It's difficult for me to think about wood arrows without having some nostalgia come into it as well--the smell of POC brings back lots of memories. Perhaps that's not a good enough reason to choose them but, then again, my enjoyment of shooting a recurve has a lot to do with nostalgia, so why not....
Compared to aluminum, a wood shaft is easier for me to keep quiet while hunting--i.e. if I bump it against the riser while nocking it the sound doesn't seem to be so alarming to game.
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woodies have a soul
I get more Honor from making a wood arrow then I have with Alum and carbon.
Did I say Woodies have a Soul!!!!
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Wood was alive once. It grows. It requires no smelting, melting or forming other than what is accomplished with a sharp edge.
I can make shafts out of a tree. I can't make shafts from bauxite. I can't make shafts out of synthetic resins and carbon.
Wood is an ancient resource, having been used to make arrows from the first use of the bow.
Not many reasons, I guess...
Jim
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I've been a wood guy for a long time but last year I went back to aluminum and now I'm trying carbon. To be honest, I'm tired of straightening and maintaining wood and having points pull out in targets in freezing weather. My arrows are stored straight up in tubes in an arrow barrel and when I pull some out it seems I have to do a lot of straightening.
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I shot woods years ago and always enjoyed the benefit of having a good excuse for a miss!
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Soul indeed...
My favorite wood of choice is hickory, however, because of it's durability. I've shot CX Rebels, CX Heritage, Gold Tips, Axis, and GrizzlyStiks, and only the last proved as durable. It does require straightening now and then, and I would suggest it for lighter draws. But it sure does what I need it to...
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Wood arrows are just plain FUN to craft yourself. You can make them plain or as fancy as you want to, it's a good way to make the cold winter days pass working on a few dozen woodies, then when the 3-D season starts watch your buddies eyes light up when you bring out your fancy arrows and beat them shooting their store bought ones, haha. All jokes aside it's just plain fun making them.
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I made up some wood (POR) 10 years ago or so. I bought 100 shafts, hunted up the straightest, and then had at it. I made a mess with the dipping tubes. I did like tapering for points and the smell. I liked the cresting best of all as I had a crestor. Of course I've fletched my own arrows for years, whatever the shafts.
I could see making wooden arrows again but it wouldn't be to save money or time. It would be for the nostalgia and craftsmanship. BUT, I'd have to do a lot more research about selecting shafts, sealing them, staining, etc.
I'll never forget the first one I shot into the grass -- I tore that yard up looking for that arrow -- I had too much time in it to lose it so quick!
I applaude the fellows who are good at this and I have no doubt a lot of them can put their woodies beside my carbons or aluminums in a target, stump, or beast.
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go for it and you will see what a great feeling it is to build them and harvest with them.there is something special about wood.if you need any help or pointers your in the right place,plenty of great wood arrow builders here.good luck.
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imho, i would not recommend messing with woods as a main arrowshaft material if you haven't solidified a decent shooting form, with decent consistent accuracy. woodies are simply not as durably consistent as carbs or alums. something to consider.
if you are still in the trad archery learning curve, you want to make sure that you missed because of *you* and not the arrow.
now, if you know yer way around trad, and yer a good shooter, hunting with woodies is a natural connection to the true aesthetics of trad archery/bowhunting. i love my woodies.
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I use all three depending upon the bow. I use wood probably more than anything when hunting in my home state. I really like it but I gotta say at times wood can be a pain because I think it requires more care to insure you don't do something that causes a set, or if you're hunting/traveling with someone else, you need to be sure they don't set something on top of them or against them to cause a set that you have to straighten. The nice thing is I have alot of them made up and I don't worry about losing them or busting them on a frozen stump because they didn't cost me as much to make. On the other hand, when I head out west on a hunting trip, I tend to use aluminum or carbon because they're not as likely to have to issues... one less thing to worry about.
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I only use wood shafts, but then I only shoot all wood bows, doesn't seem right to do anything else.
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I agree with Rob; wood is a terrible material: crooked, expensive, in accurate, slow, can't penetrate, did I miss anything? You continue with the other materials and leave the wood to me! :archer2:
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quote:
Originally posted by Bjorn:
I agree with Rob; wood is a terrible material: crooked, expensive, in accurate, slow, can't penetrate, did I miss anything? You continue with the other materials and leave the wood to me! :wavey:
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Wood is quieter off the bow. It's available in the widest range of spines and weights, making it easier to match to your bow if you already know what it requires. It's better looking than carbon or aluminum IMO. Of course, those of us who shoot wood also think it ties us more closely to times past and the spirit of archery. As others have said, wood just has soul. Also makes a good fire starter in emergency situations.
Cons. Good wood arrows are more difficult to build than aluminum or carbon arrows. It takes good shafting and good craftsmanship to build good wood arrows. There's a lot of junk out there -- bad grain, severely mismatched spine and weight, etc. And a lot of folks don't have the patience, skill or know how to build good wood arrows.
If you factor in the time required to make them, cost of quality raw material, the finishes needed to seal them, and the equipment needed to make them -- spine tester, grain scale, sanding disk taper tool, etc. -- good wood arrows will cost just as much as aluminum or carbon. In fact, a lot of junk wood arrows also cost just as much.
The bad wrap that some lay on wood arrows can almost always be traced to poorly made arrows, mismatched in spine and/or weight and/or having crooked nock and/or point tapers and thus nocks and points that are not aligned properly.
I've been shooting wood for about 50 years, and i spend very little time straightening arrows. I start with premium quality shafting, which is quite straight to begin with, straighten those shafts that need it and seal them. That's it. Unless I sit on them, try to yank them out of a target sideways or have a critter fall on them, they stay straight.
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
quote:
Originally posted by Bjorn:
I agree with Rob; wood is a terrible material: crooked, expensive, in accurate, slow, can't penetrate, did I miss anything? You continue with the other materials and leave the wood to me! :wavey:
If there's ever a POC shortage, it'll be because Bjorn has it all! :cool:
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Originally posted by Andy Cooper:
If there's ever a POC shortage, it'll be because Bjorn has it all! :cool:
ain't dat da truth - and all the PRIMO poc, too! :D
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All I can say is if you can master building wood arrows than your and Arrowsmith,and after watching Gary and Connie Renfro building the footed arrow and pestering Bjorn :laughing: I can't wait to start building wood arrows.
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What's worst is every time I kill a pig with wood he breaks it! Just can't get any respect!
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The great pleasure of making them, the smell, the beauty of wood veins and a smaller impact in case of loss (I only put some linseed oil to seal them)
And also the feeling in my hand
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amen, orion. there is also an inherent beauty to wood you cannot duplicate with any other shafting material. maybe i'm a nut case, but i also love the smell of cedar.
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Originally posted by snow leopard:
amen, orion. there is also an inherent beauty to wood you cannot duplicate with any other shafting material. maybe i'm a nut case, but i also love the smell of cedar.
amen to all of that, but yer espousing form over function, for whatever that means to you.
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rob; i respectfully disagree. if the function of a straight arrow is to hit where i am "aiming," and i am shooting it at a distance that i feel comfortable with insofar as hitting my mark, and i subsequently miss, i believe i need to look at myself as the reason for the miss, not the arrow.
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Originally posted by snow leopard:
rob; i respectfully disagree. if the function of a straight arrow is to hit where i am "aiming," and i am shooting it at a distance that i feel comfortable with insofar as hitting my mark, and i subsequently miss, i believe i need to look at myself as the reason for the miss, not the arrow.
no disagreement there. your previous post talked about 'form' based aspects of wood shafts and not 'functional' based.
i have no dislike of wood arrows, i build and use them ALL the time by the dozens. they're just not for everyone for reasons other than aesthetics.
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I disagree with a blanket statment that wood is inconsistent. My cedar arrows are more precisely matched in spine and weight than either carbons or aluminums, it just takes a lot of time and shafts to match them. Also staightness is not a huge issue, if you are shooting POC or Sitka spruce. Douglas fir, hickory, and pine are notoriously kinky and I don't think the higher weight is worth the effort.
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i do realize wood arrows are not for everyone. i shot 2016's and 2018's in the late 70's and just didn't care for them. too noisey, for one. in any event, i do realize the problem i have with aluminum and/or carbon lies within me, and it is personal. it would be a very boring existence if we were all the same.
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Wood exclusively. Carbons are a pain to tune. Aluminum is loud even when tuned. No inserts, monkeying with "stuff" all the time. Wood is warm, quiet, flys good even if crooked, small game cheapies are great and who cares if they break. Less monkeying with points, just glue it on, u can straighten and repair many that are damaged. I have even glued and thread wrapped split arrows and kept shooting them for years...just get some custom straight and properly spined ones for hunting. U can learn to straighten as well
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arrowslinger22 said it perfect wood bow wood arrows it makes sence
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Note: keep all your broken POC shafts. You can redo the point, as needed, just to fill the shop with that wonderful aroma. All it takes is a couple of turns in the tru-center tool, and, viola! Aroma therapy.
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here's what makes most sense - consistent accuracy.
don't matter at all what the arrow shaft material is ... nope, not one little bit. a dead critter is a dead critter whether hit with wood, carbon, aluminium or glass (hey, remember micro-flyte fiberglass? is that 'trad' or what? :D )
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Yep...you can get a lot of milage out of aluminum and many will agree with what Rob pointed out about the learning curve....eventually you will get to the place where you can appreciate the woodies.
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Not so much an advantage...you're either romanced by wood arrows and you "get it" or you don't. It's just something you have to feel...it's the love for things made with wood.
If you haven't tried them and are attracted to the idea of wood arrows, what do you have to lose? It is really fun to build a dozen beautiful wood arrows, even more fun, is to shoot a really decent buck with them!
I've kept all my broken woods for the past 25 years (especially the crested ends for artistic/pattern reference), I love the smell of POC. You can buy carbons at a big box store...it's not the same! Having said that, I do shoot carbons as well :)
Kris
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Rob,
I get where you are coming from, I think, but apply your logic to trad versus compound. We obviously choose to shoot trad for seemingly illogical and purely "form" reasons rather than pure function. It seems to me that Trad archers care a heck of a lot more about form and less about ultimate functionality or we wouldn't be shooting with strung sticks. :)
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When one of my Hill style longbow buddies wants me to make them arrows and they supply me with carbons or aluminum, they either don't fly at all because they are one notch off of what they should have or with the carbons there is always messing around to get them to go. With the woods they leave it up to me and I can hit just the right arrow first time every time, so far. We do not seem to have the straightening or crooked arrow problem that is so often talked about. I wonder if some folks are bending them when yanking them out of the targets. I have had dissenters tell me the same thing about how wood is not as accurate, usually to hear about how they find that wood is more forgiving. I have found that with two of my bows that I have the perfect aluminum shaft, 1918s, oddly 1916 nor 2016s fly with those same bows, while they handle a span of wood spines that all seem to fly as good as the 1918s. Besides snow doesn't freeze on wood like metal arrows.
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I take care my wood arrows very consistent. My supplier measures the spine, sorts the weights and makes sure they are straight. This service costs 0.24 cts extra per shaft.
So all my arrows weight he same and have exactly the same spine.
An important advantage for me is the FOC. Since I shoot 3D only, a FOC of 8% is considered to be ideal. An 11/32 wooden shaft at a lenght of 30 inches and a fieldtip of 100 grains exactly gives me that at the ideal weight of 10gpp.
With a carbon shaft I end up with 15%, which is too high.
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I would suggest you make 1-doz to play with to see what everyone is talking about. come on here ask questions geather your materials an build some for stump shooting.just to experince the wood arrow dont be swayed by others words see what this part of archery is all about.
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There you go!
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Originally posted by NTD:
Rob,
I get where you are coming from, I think, but apply your logic to trad versus compound. We obviously choose to shoot trad for seemingly illogical and purely "form" reasons rather than pure function. It seems to me that Trad archers care a heck of a lot more about form and less about ultimate functionality or we wouldn't be shooting with strung sticks. :)
in a perfect world, your logic makes sense. but for newbies and those that can't or won't deal with the nuances of wood, best stick with non-natural shaft materials and be more consistent overall.
organic arrows just aren't for everyone - more so if yer a bowhunter, where the emphasis is on quick dead critters and not wounded ones.
yeah yeah yeah, wood kills. yer preaching to the choir, i know that first hand. i still use wood. just saying that wood takes more care and thought and fussing than those other shaft materials, and thus may not be best for a newb at the least.
there are at least a few notable bowhunters who will not hunt with wood because of environmental conditions - byron ferguson comes first to mind. not looking to start a 'fight' or cause controversy. in this matter of shaft material choice, it just is what it is, and it don't really matter as long as you are confident in yer personal choice.
to those who keep espousing 'wood is trad!' - yer nocks are self cut? yer bowstring is linen? yer bow is all wood and no glass, carbon or foam and is laminated with hide or fish glue? etc etc etc. hah! :laughing:
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Thank God I never got into wood arrows. Even though I loved the look of them and understand everyones high opinion of them, I never tried them. I knew a few guys who used them and seen them break on the first shot or when someone nicked one in the target, bend/warp in their quiver, etc. It just seemed like too much trouble for a limited time arrow...
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"to those who keep espousing 'wood is trad!' - yer nocks are self cut? yer bowstring is linen? yer bow is all wood and no glass, carbon or foam and is laminated with hide or fish glue? etc etc etc. hah"
No fight intended :)
Except for the string and the glues YES ;)
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Originally posted by NTD:
"to those who keep espousing 'wood is trad!' - yer nocks are self cut? yer bowstring is linen? yer bow is all wood and no glass, carbon or foam and is laminated with hide or fish glue? etc etc etc. hah"
No fight intended :)
Except for the string and the glues YES ;)
yer feathers aren't stuck on with thread and hide or fish glue? HERESY!!!! :D
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And you are right, I'm being idealist about a trad approach;) To be honest I'd like a set of carbons for the field range that I shoot at, I end up leaving there with half my arrows. Too much work in them to destroy a bunch for a few hours of shooting :)
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My twelve yr old son says "wood arrows are the best".
"You can make a bad shot, and the arrow will still hit what you want" "The bow FEELS better to shoot" "It makes your bow QUIETER" "You get to KNOW certain arrows" "They are all good, but some are better than others" "They will make you a better shot"
Valid points. All of them are opinions he developed on his own BEFORE he ever began to make his own.
I am in the process of showing him how to build top shelf wood arrows from start to finish. He is turning into an arrow building monster. He loves it, and loving it is perhaps one of the biggest advantages of wood.
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Forgot to add, I shoot mostly carbon.
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Never tried wood arrows, will have to give it a shot.
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I shoot wood as well as carbon
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Wood arrows were made for those who to play and make a work of art.
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They're BIODEGRADABLE!!!!!!!!!! :bigsmyl:
500 years from now an "archeryoligist" will find a plastic nock and say...
"Many years ago,a "prehistoric" man shot this arrow. I wonder what he was shooting at???"
Honestly though, I use all my old woodies for 3-D,stumping,and Bunny Hunts. I never feel bad leaving "lost" arrows in the woods!!!!!
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
Originally posted by NTD:
"to those who keep espousing 'wood is trad!' - yer nocks are self cut? yer bowstring is linen? yer bow is all wood and no glass, carbon or foam and is laminated with hide or fish glue? etc etc etc. hah"
No fight intended :)
Except for the string and the glues YES ;)
yer feathers aren't stuck on with thread and hide or fish glue? HERESY!!!! :D [/b]
Actually my feathers are tied on with silk thread :-)
I cheat by using dacron strings and urac glue for laminates :-) I try to stay as trad as I can. But a big reason for that is I have more time than money. I also get a lot of my material by way of trade. I think it's easier to trade a set of snake skins for wood/cane shafts than it is for a set of carbons. I spend very very little money on this hobby, spend more in shipping than I do on any goods :)
But you understood the intent of my original post and that's all I was hoping for. :cool:
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So Rob, when you started out, your form was solidified and you shot carbons, in the Dark Ages?
Advantage, I'm not sure there is such a thing!
I didn't get into Archery for an Advantage!
Excuse me, not trying to be rude!
It is about a simple, natural, self-sufficent use of nature to enjoy all things God gave us domain over.
No doubt, the wood available, is not like what we had, years ago! Then, neither is the gas I burn in my vehichle.
Wood arrows is somehting we need to experience!
The ole saying, "what goes around comes around" In this case, I hope is true! :bigsmyl:
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You all remember Acme cedars, you buy a thousand shafts and one or two of them made tomato stakes.
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dang you guys..yer makin me get the itch to try woodies again. :help:
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Woodies fly great on a Caribow, Papa Bear.....
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I found the woodies to be very quiet and the main thing that I like about them and the main reason why I started using them was for the ability to adjust my spine.
I couldn't afford to buy new aluminums or carbons just because the spine wasn't right when I first got into trad archery. So wood was the obvious choice until I settled on a spine, length, and weight.
If you enjoy making them you will stick with it, if you tire of sanding, sealing, painting, straightening.........then you will switch to carbon.
You just have to enjoy the experience of using wood, but like all materials it has it's pros and cons.
I might also add that it gave me a profound respect for arrow spine that I never had before. I learned more about arrow spine and how it relates to perfect arrow flight......through first hand experience with wood shafts, mainly cedar.
I think it should be required curriculum that anybody who uses trad gear should take a "Home schooled" course in woodies and build their own spine testing jig. :D
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
imho, i would not recommend messing with woods as a main arrowshaft material if you haven't solidified a decent shooting form, with decent consistent accuracy. woodies are simply not as durably consistent as carbs or alums. something to consider.
if you are still in the trad archery learning curve, you want to make sure that you missed because of *you* and not the arrow.
now, if you know yer way around trad, and yer a good shooter, hunting with woodies is a natural connection to the true aesthetics of trad archery/bowhunting. i love my woodies.
X2
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Originally posted by frank bullitt:
So Rob, when you started out, your form was solidified and you shot carbons, in the Dark Ages?
Advantage, I'm not sure there is such a thing!
I didn't get into Archery for an Advantage!
Excuse me, not trying to be rude!
It is about a simple, natural, self-sufficent use of nature to enjoy all things God gave us domain over.
No doubt, the wood available, is not like what we had, years ago! Then, neither is the gas I burn in my vehichle.
Wood arrows is somehting we need to experience!
The ole saying, "what goes around comes around" In this case, I hope is true! :bigsmyl:
steve steve steve steve, here we go again with you. :rolleyes: :cool:
if yer a newbie, just getting into trad archery and trad bowhunting, and yer form and accuracy is in the developmental stages, you WILL have a tougher row to hoe if you start out with woodies.
don't believe me? don't care, not my problem, ignore me. just telling it like it is and as i've seen and lived it for the last 55 years of pulling string, punching paper, foam and fur, and shooting every manner of bow and arrow readily available.
yer a seasoned trad archer? you NEED to mess with woodies and if you haven't, shame on you! ;)
ymmv, have at it.
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Love wood. But frankly there is no advantage. I got tired of getting 3or 4 good arrows out of a dozen and then the stupid things break every time you hit a hard object at a whipping angle. Carbon with the way they last me with all my missing is probably less than half the cost in the long run.
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Beagle as far as only getting 3 or 4 good shafts then you should try surewoods. I know you'll be impressed! Out of a dozen you might only have to straighten one. They're the straightest wood shafts I've seen. Make beautiful shafts as well.
Keeping the Faith!
Magnus
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Hey, I want 2 cents in this! Here is my findings. And I have a garage full of all three materials.
Metal; If you want to put some arrows together fast and whack targets. Good for coyote hunting since they will bite your arrows. Pretty light so I would have to add weight. I like them for FITA shooting.
Carbon: UGH! Took me much time to find the right spine, weight, cutting for spine. I really like the Alaskan Grizzly shafts. But $$$.
WOOD: Now that is where I alway go back to. If I get shafts from makers like Great Basin(Kye)they are perfect! Straight, exact weight and once sealed they stay that way. I have shafts I still shoot from Kustom King from 1984-5. Smooth,quiet and just fly great. (http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l182/highcountry_photos/12172010190.jpg)
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I have found that with some bows, self and Hills as example, beginners have better arrow flight with cedar than anything else. There seems to be a larger tolerance for spines with wood with these types of bows, where they can get real fussy with stiffer materials like carbon and metal. You still need to get into the ball park with wood, but go a little on the stiff side with aluminum and you got a wobbly failure on your hands. With bows that are more center shot that advantage is not the same. My cedars seem tougher and more predictable than what some are describing here. I don't know if that is a handling or a supplier issue.
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i hear ya, lawrence - but i wouldn't ever start a newbie off in trad with a self or hill bow.
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It is more practical to start out with a used lower weight recurve for sure. From good form with a 40 pound recurve to a bit heavier Hill style is not so difficult if they have a good mental image of what they are trying to do. I have seen many try to reinvent that wheel on their own with no input or background and come up with some bizarre looking thing on their own that never works, then blame everything on the arrow. That is the one thing I like about recurves, just about any good arrow will do.
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Did I say Woodies have a Soul!!!! [/QB]
Not to overstate the issue but I agree with the above statement. Beside that, cedars are generally quieter than carbons or aluminum. The last two deer I've taken were with cedars and I'm stickin' with 'em.