Okay- I have read a number of posts over the years about one lung hits. I would really like to hear from some of you who ACTUALLY autopsied the deer and KNOW it was one lung because you actually confirmed the internal organ damage.
If I can graciously write it here- I really am not interested in "my friends second cousin hit this deer in one lung. . ."
I really want solid info here if I can.
I suppose the biggest reason I am asking is I really am suspicious about the idea of "one lung." I have posted anatomy pics here before and most guys do not even realize the spine drops half way down the deer's body. So we get these ideas of "high lung hits", "void hits" etc etc. when in reality a guy shot OVER the spine.
So I am suspicious of these "one-lung" scenarios where the deer goes for "a mile." I am just not sure. . .
Questions:
1) I was always on the understanding that an arrow in the lung/chest chamber would cause the lungs to lose pressure and the deer to suffocate. So, just the fact of the hole in front of the diaphragm will kill the deer? Yes?? No??
2) Is it really possible to get one lung with no other damage that allows a deer to keep moving for hundreds of yards? (Seems there is a lot of veins and arteries around the lungs)
3) Has anybody really seen a deer stay alive for hours (and even a day or more) when it TRULY had only one lung hit (verified upon autopsy!)?
4) Given your valid experience- how would you proceed tracking a suspected one lung deer? Wait like a gut shot? Push him??
Educate me. . . grasshopper is listening.
Thanks
Dan in KS
dan I have first hand recent exp. on the topic. I dont know the answer to the first question.
For No. 2 yes you can get only 1 lung and nothing else. In my my exp. this generally happens with deer nearly under the stand or within about 5 yds.
I killed a doe around thanksgiving, under the aforementioned circumtance and yes she lived a minimium of 3hrs and ran another 150yds after I bumped her. I backed out and returned in the morning and yes quite dead at that point.
the problem with the question four is you just aren't going to know right off that you 1 lunged'um. arrow is going to look good, the bubble will be present, and until you bump'um (and you will) your not going to know. My general rule is I backout anytime I bump a hit deer.
I have had two deer with single lung broadhead tracks. Both had a secondary organ hit - heart in one case and liver in the other. The lung/liver was taken from ground level and the shot was fron a forward quartering angle. That deer also had a 6" slice/tear that split the diaphragm and a matching slice/tear that split the liver. That deer went 35 yards and collapsed. When hit it made an "oof" like it had been punched in the solar plexus.
The lung/heart was from a downward rear quartering shot (ideal) and that deer went 120 yards.
Both of these were with a RibTek 125S ("Slim" - 1-1/8" wide).
I do not push deer when hit - regardless. I wait 20 minutes. If it seems I am moving the deer ahead of me I will stop and have a candy bar and wait another half hour - but that had been a situation with a round ball from a muzzleloader. The lung/liver one that went 35 yards I found almost immediately (it was thick brush he pushed into). I've never had a gut-shot myself (knock riser wood) but in helping other archers it was usually two hours wait. In one case overnight.
Would I try for the liver or diaphragm? No. I try for double lung. Even then I wait 20 minutes and it seems 120 to 150 yards is normal. Takes a deer seven seconds to do 150 yards through cover. So if a deer has 14 seconds of strength it can put 200 yards between you without taking a breath.
The one deer I never recovered was a single lung from above. 15 feet with yellow fletch - I saw the arrow enter and saw it after the deer collapsed (I believe I also struck the spine a glancing hit). Deer struggled back up as I foolishly was lowering my bow. Should have taken a second shot - but it was lump still for half a minute. Tried to find the blood trail or carcass for days but it was a flooded swamp. Bad, rookie experience and I still kick myself 18 or so years later.
Well,Ive seen it first hand on deer and elk.usually was a case of the animal quartering to ,or quartering away more than one thought rathrer than it being as broadside as one thought.Also,have seen it happen in a couple of center punch insidences.I would say from experiance,to deffinately give them more time,like a gut shot incident.My old hunting parner and I years ago lost an elk he shot that he only got one lung,that was a real heart breaker.We should have given him alott longer and he would have been dead in his bed ,I think.It was dark and we got up to him.probably an hour and a half after dark and I heard him girgulling,but due to us being scattered and 2 guys that came out to help talking too much,he jumped up and took off down the other side of the ridge through a pass in sheer cliffs.We returned in the a.m. and searched and hiked etc.in super steep brushy country and he got away.Then,a couple of years later I did pretty close to the same thing and had luck on my side and mine reared over backwards going over the top of the hill and was dead to my disbelief in under a couple of minutes.Deer and elk both have an unbelievable toughness and will to survive .The can amaze you at how tough they can be on a less than perfect hit.When in doubt,never be afraid to give them plenty of time.It is hard.Of course be as concientuos as possible on the shots that you take,and practice every realistic shot that you may encounter.Steep uphill /downhill.Thats my 2 cents worth.Thanks and I hope yours are all heart shots.Merry Christmas
QuoteOriginally posted by nc recurveman:
dan I have first hand recent exp. on the topic. I dont know the answer to the first question.
For No. 2 yes you can get only 1 lung and nothing else. In my my exp. this generally happens with deer nearly under the stand or within about 5 yds.
I killed a doe around thanksgiving, under the aforementioned circumtance and yes she lived a minimium of 3hrs and ran another 150yds after I bumped her. I backed out and returned in the morning and yes quite dead at that point.
the problem with the question four is you just aren't going to know right off that you 1 lunged'um. arrow is going to look good, the bubble will be present, and until you bump'um (and you will) your not going to know. My general rule is I backout anytime I bump a hit deer.
Good advise here on bumping a hit deer. You move one once and you should back off for a good long time.
I made a single lung hit on a doe from a high tree stand angle. Shot was almost straight down and I did hit one lung without damaging the heart. Animal behaved just as the man above me described.
Jack
KSDAN--First, I've never really done the full autopsy, but have a pretty good idea on the kills I'll relate here. 90% certainty.
Two years ago I had a deer literally 3 yards from the base of my tree and I was only 8 feet up. I one-lung hit this deer almost straight down (arrow tip barely penetrated the skin on the bottom but did not extend). Basically zero blood trail. Found deer the next day about 200-225 yards away. It certainly ran the first 150 yards or so; can't say after that.
This fall my bowhunting partner hit a deer similarly. The arrow made it to the bottom of the chest cavity but did not penetrate out. She's a biology teacher so we did do a relatively certain autopsy when we recovered it the next day. Zero blood the first 75-100 yards (except one drop), then it picked up the last 100+ yards but probably still another 200-250 yd. trail. Deer ran whole way it appeared.
Back in '91 or so I shot a pronghorn with a liver/one-lung shot (pretty sure on this). Buck ran out about 60-80 yds and collapsed. Head came up. Then it looked like he was on verge of passing out, but then would come to. I got down and tried to stalk after 10 minutes and got close but he jumped up and ran over hill. I ran over hill too and he died on the run. Think he'd been idling on one lung.
Had a buddy make an almost for sure one-lung hit on a deer, but he'd accidentally used his practice broadhead. Came back the next day with me alongside and that buck was still alive the next day although couldn't really get up and move. May have even been both lungs but dull broadhead.
Seems like Gene Wensel told a tale of a buck he or someone else had hit in one lung, that was later killed by rifle by a friend and when they gutted it, the one lung was messed up bad.
First of all, I did autopsy all deer I shoot because that is my thing. I like doing it. My first deer of the year was a single lung shot. I was on the ground and had an 8 yard shot. The deer moved ahead as the arrow entered the first lung, but caused the arrow to angle back and it missed the second lung as it exited. The blood trail was quite good. I only waited 20-30 minutes. While tracking, I jumped the deer after about 100 yards of blood trail. I saw the deer run down toward my friend, so I let it go. Later, I went down by my friend and found the blood trail going past him. We found the deer a little ways away. Total blood trail from hit was a good 300 yards. I also tracked a doe in the snow years ago that had a single lung hit. After over a mile we quit and came back the next day. Found her another half mile and confirmed the single lung hit.
RC was talkin about a single lung hit he a friend track about a mile up here last week. When Mr. RC says something listen.......if he told me it was raining soup I wouldn't even look out the window I'd just go get a spoon.
My question to you Dan is: Where in a deers body does the spine drop down to the half way point? I'd like to see those pix bud...
Drops down a bit lower thru the shoulders, but in my experience nowhere near down to the half way point. I think a lot of hunters "backstrap" deer thinking they should have hit the spine, but are shooting above it.
1. Not sure if just a hole would cause death. But I would also think if you put a hole thru a deers chest, you'll have to hit something. Every deer I've ever hit that I suspacted was a single lung was recovered.
2. I've put arrows thru a few deer at very steep angles that allowed the arrow to go thru the top of a lung, and out the bottom of the same lung. Only one lung hit....deer recovered and autopsied.
3. Never had this happen in my first hand experience. Like i said earlier, mine were recovered.
4. If I suspect an arrow thru the chest, but because of angle maybe only one lung. I would suggest at least 4 hrs.
The only deer that I one lunged with a bow went a little over 300 yards but was dead in minuets not hours. The deer was about 8 yards from the tree and my stand was over 20 feet up so the angle was steep.No animal hit in the lungs or a lung will live for days.
1, yes. 2, bad shot angle or a straight down shot. Rib cage on a bad shot angle will stop an arrow out of a 60lb bow, or allow only enough penetration to get one lung. 3, yes. 4, if you only get one lung chances are that the arrow did not get go through the animal. If the entrance was a high hit and did not come out the bottom then the amount of blood you have to track is going to be limited ( mostly aspirated from the nose). In my humble opinion a one lung hit deer is not a dead deer(with in hours) all of the time. But haveing said that I know guys that scare deer and they drop dead for what ever reason. The way to track a one lung hit deer depends on alot of circumstances. Bad shot angles means get a good pair of shoes.
#1 Yes. Your assumption to #1 is in lines with what a vet told me years ago on a one lung hit something along the lines of won't be able to create a vacuum with its diaphram and will suffocate even with a one lung hit, if there is an open hole and the holes do not plug. But if the holes plug up the deer could live 24 hours or forever depending on the hit and plugage.
#2 Depends I would think on the amount of veins and arteries that were hit.
#3 Yes, I have one lung hit 2 deer and found them the next day. Of course at the time I knew they were marginal hits or little penetration and not just one lung. Upon dressing it did not appear to be any damage to the other lung, heart, diaphram, or a major artery. I did not pursue after the hit knowing it was a questionable hit. But I do not know how long they lived after the hit. Found the one about 700 yards (23 hours) and the other I believe was around 300 yards (18 hours).
#4 I would wait at least 6 plus hours and if cool weather the next day.
Of course there was one I thought I may have one lunged but never did find her.
I do not however believe a one lung hit deer will dye all the time.
Earl
One lung being down will not cause suffocation!
If that weren't true, I wouldn't be writing this because I'd be dead.
Nuff said!
God bless,Mudd
QuoteOriginally posted by Mudd:
One lung being down will not cause suffocation!
If that weren't true, I wouldn't be writing this because I'd be dead.
Nuff said!
God bless,Mudd
But are you sure that a deer or elk in tougher than you are.
DDave
I'm sorry damascusdave but I didn't quite get your question.
I will share that I only have one lung that works due to paralysis of one half of my diaphragm.
I took a fall that severed the nerve that operates the left side of my diaphragm therefore that lung is just there, it doesn't move. The only air that flows in my left lung would be minimal due to chest expansion.
Over time, the other lung has accommodated for it's non-functioning partner.
As far as how tough critters can be, I think deer.... shoot I think even rabbits are tougher than I am...lol
I hope I didn't misunderstand too badly.
Please forgive me if that's the case.
God bless,Mudd
Check out Terry's thread at the top of the Powwow called "Animal shot placements pics" great skeletal picks of several animals.
(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/b1-6.jpg)
I agree with Curt, The spine doesn't drop that low. Deer can go a long ways on a one lung hit, I wish I could have found my buck in one piece this year for a autopsy but the coyotes had eaten them and most everything else in the chest cavity.
Tracy
I had this buck live for 4 hours after a one lung hit as you look at this picture the first arrow came out right behind the shoulder the arrow entered on the left side at the back of the rib cage.As we walked up on him he just let us walk up on him then he jumped up and walked slowly over the hill.After waiting another 20 min we found him 70 yards away. (http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj10/longbowben/052.jpg)
Years ago I shot a nice buck at 5 yrds facing me from a tree stand, the arrow went thru one lung and thru the diaphram all the way to the fletching. As the deer ran the broadhead was sticking out and made some really bad cuts on his back leg. Followed the blood for 500 yrds or so and it ran out. I got an experienced tracker to help me the next morning. A quarter mile and 3 hrs later, following only small specks of blood he found the deer. The arrow was gone and guts had plugged the hole. This guy was the best tracker I have ever seen, he never let me get ahead of him on the blood trail and he never mentioned giving up.
I actually believe that a deer can survive a one lung hit. You may want to read the book "Finding Wounded Deer" by John Trout. I would consider him an expert in this area. In the book it his opinion that a Single Lunged Deer (no other organ hit) is the toughest tracking job to do, even worse then an intestine hit. He also describes how a deers lungs work which ARE similar to a humans. In contast if a single lung is puntured in others certain species, both lungs will collapse.
Some asked about anatomy pics. Dead deer. What vitals did it hit?
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/anatomyspinehit-1.jpg)
Dead center on SPINE.
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/webshotbroadside2.jpg)
Here is a true 220# field dressed deer. In other words- he is BIG. The tape and marks are the ACTUAL anatomy. The dark line above the lungs is the SPINE. The dark line below the lungs is the sternum bone. Now notice the measurement in inches. At the shoulder- the SPINE runs half way down the deer. I think many people shoot above this half way point and speak of "high lung" or "void." Fact of the matter they went OVER the spine.
Note: the vital/lung area is not much bigger than 7" x 7"- I can cover that with my hand. AND REALIZE- this is a brute of a mature buck. A doe would be 2/3 to 1/2 of this vital size!
Also- the carcass is hanging so the "elbow" is shifted forward. The "wound" is actually dead centered on the heart which is just above the elbow on a standing deer.
Personal experience got me into this education. :banghead:
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/broadsidedimensions.jpg)
Here is a link to my experience last year pictures included.
http://***********.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=202401&category=88#2617024
Dont shoot me.... This is not a thread hijack either......
I have to ask the question... Why take a shot that has a high % of a single lung hit? For tree stand hunters, we have preached for ever not to take those close high angle shots... Deaf ears?
I understand a deflection (that one happened to me this year and I was lucky) and I can see a misplaced shot (that can happen to anyone for all kinds of reasons) and sure, some folks might mis "see" their angle, but why take a low % shot at all?
OK, now experience.. I have only had two deer (prior to this year) in my bowhunting experience take a one lung shot and this is confirmed after examination. In both cases I hit another major organ and the deer expired in short order. One was, in fact, a tree stand shot that I thought was of a low enough angle to get them both. Did not happen but I did get the heart. (still not sure how) Deer jumped, traveled 30-40 yds and started walking off and fell over...
Other one was almost identical but with longer travel.
I really try and keep my shot angles low (I do not get any higher than 12 ft in a stand) and don't shoot at anything greater than 20-22 yards.
check out deer and deer hunting's fall issue. A great article about deer anatomy by a wildlife biologist covering all of your questions.
yes a hole in the chest cavity in front of the diaphram will kill the deer. the distance a deer will travel depends a lot on where in the lung the hit arrow strikes. Both low and high hits bleed much less then in the center hits allowing the deer more blood to its brain for a longer period of time. And most importantly there is NO void area above the lungs and below the spine
QuoteOriginally posted by Huntschool:
I have to ask the question... Why take a shot that has a high % of a single lung hit? For tree stand hunters, we have preached for ever not to take those close high angle shots... Deaf ears?
I would hope that a person would not purposely shoot for one lung, but lets face it, stuff does happen sometimes out of the hunters complete control. I didn't get the feeling that this is the purpose of the thread.
Onehair, thanks for the link. I had a similar experience.
My brother shot high on a huge buck this year with his compound from the ground with slight upwards angle (deer was on top of him and too close for his 20 yard pin). Arrow was sticking through both sides and we never recovered it. We waited 4 hours and proceeded a very slow and quiet tracking job. After the entire afternoon, I mapped out that we tracked him well over 1200 yards, not including zig-zagging, most of the trail he was walking very slowly. There was a steady drip and we found a few large piles of extremely frothy stuff that was surely from a lung hit in my opinion, but never a bed, and eventually everything petered out and we never found him. I wasn't there for the shot, but I figured he hit top of the lung on the way in and angling up decently, went just under the spine, missing any meaningful damage to the off lung. Not sure if he could have lived or not. The learning I tried to impart to him though, was to have a trad bow on hand next time when attempting 5 yard ground shots at monster deer.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/IMG_0655.jpg)
This is the Buck NC was talking about.I appreciate the compilment Brother but I`m just lucky a lot and live in Gods Country. My good Buddy Chris Spikes shot this deer at 4-6 yards. As often happens it was a brown blur when he shot and he thought he had gut shot it as he replayed the shot in his head.We were on public land camping and decided to wait till 3 in the afternoon to take up the trail on the gut shot deer.The arrow did`nt have a drop of blood on it.On the way to the shot location we got on a group of pigs and another Buddy shot a pig so we got started trailing at around 4:30. I picked up blood quick and we got started . At about 6:00 we jumped the deer a mile from the shot location.Chris is sharp on the gps and computer so this is not a guessed distance. It ran another 150 yards and was sitting up erect when Chris walked up and shot it again.Bottom of one lung. When we got on the pigs we were about 75 yards from where the deer bedded and unknowingly caused him to move then.I think if we had not pushed this deer he may have lived ..who knows.The arrow came out his brisket and I think the soft bone "cleaned the arrow off as it went through.
Another question. The blood trail was an easy one except in a place or two...do you think we would have found the deer with a smaller broadhead in the same place being used? I say no but theres no way to tell.RC
KS Dan--I've twice hit does in or about where your cutaway view (with arrow in) shows; maybe just a hair forward. Dropped in their tracks with an arrow halfway down the body line. I was pretty incredulous.
Another thing I think fools people on exactly where they hit is the optical illusion that we are looking at a 3-D target (usually from an angle above). So the top part of the deer might read to our brain as the top outline of a deer standing level and broadside to us, but in reality, the top outline is actually a little bit of the body on the other side of center. Does that make any sense? If I could draw a picture, it would be easy to explain.
I think there are plenty of guys who have hit a fair bit down from the top of the outline of the deer, but because they were from an elevated perch, they actually hit near the top of the deer, through the backstraps, and then out the other side of the deer through more backstraps, some rib meat, and maybe grazing one lung on the other side.
Sorry for the thread highjack.
Dan, Not to go against what you're saying about the spine....but that first arrow is way too far forward(second pic), and would be in shoulder bones. I think we all know that the spine dips as it comes out of the neck.But it quickly rises through the chest cavity.
On your taped up pic, I believe the tape line that you have marked as the spine in the actual top of the chest cavity(ribs), the spine sits, I would say about an inch higher than that.
We could go back and forth on this...I tell ya what, I have a 110# doe hanging I shot, that I'm about to go butcher....I'll check it out and see what I can come up with.
Back to one lung hits.....
Robert...I agree with the answer to your question...but as you say, "there's no way to tell"
I agree Bryce. We are shooting a 3-D "barrel." Your examples of deer dropping is reality. Center the shoulder and you will center the spine. TWO INCHES above horizontal center and you have a lost deer!
I do not see a hijack from any of you. This is an important discussion.
My goal is NOT to be "right." But I do love the "truth." Truth corresponds to reality. Truth hits me between the eyes all the time!
Few guys I know REALLY spend the time to autopsy their deer and STUDY what occurred, the anatomy etc. The pics I posted with measurements are actual. I put nails through the spine and sternum allowing them to protrude through the rib cage/carcass so I could lay the tape accurately.
Another educative example: Look at the actual anatomy pics I posted above of the sternum area. That sternum bone and cartilage is 3-4" thick. Add to that the hide and long belly hair and realizes that one could potentially hit a deer 4-5" from the bottom of the "observed" belly line and still not get into the vitals! This is very different than 2-D pictures reveal.
LESSONS that sober me and keep me honest: 1) I need to hit a 6" dia. target that is on the inside of a barrel (angles are important)- WHILE it is moving through the woods, when I am nervous, the wind is blowing, the deer "looks" the size of a horse (ever heard of ground shrinkage?), I am not warmed up. . . . 2) There is more bone and cartilage to contend with than 2-D "drawings" of anatomy suggest. 3) There is something to be said about a clean flying scary sharp two bladed head (30+ years of hunting and I have been more convinced on this the past few years) 4) My affective range is FAR shorter than what I can shoot at a target in my backyard! 5) AND- when we do cleanly harvest ANY deer, we have REALLY received a great gift and accomplishment.
By the way- MERRY CHRISTMAS GUYS!!
Dan in KS
Curt- not sure what you mean ""too far forward."??
The arrow was shot off the ground and dead centered (top to bottom) the shoulder- as pictured. (The elbow sagged forward a bit on the hanging carcass- but the arrow is still centered on the shoulder)
The second pic is leaving the arrow where it hit while removing the shoulder from around it (does that makes sense?).
As I stated in a later post here- the line is the actual spine column (bottom edge) as I pushed nails through in various spots to get the line. Anything on /or above that line is non-vital.
I have done this often. . . I will be curious to see what your study reveals.
Thanks for the input- good conversation
Dan
Great pictures KSdan i also say thier is a void close to the spine,An arrow passes through that area and you never find that animal.And some deer can live through hits that most animals would fall over in thier tracks.Just like the buck that lived for 6 days after one lung hit that KS TRAPER backed up with great pictures that we all should learn from.
This is good discussion, and something most folks don't pay enough attention to...
1. As far as the "void" above the spine....I'm pretty sure it's been proven that there isn't one. On a healthy deer with working lungs and pressure from the diaphram...the cavity is full. Think about your own chest/lungs...if there was room in there for your lungs to move around, we'd certainly feel it and would lead to all kind of injuries from activity and contact. I'm pretty sure it's the same with deer......my experience...
Tracy's deer was hit a little back and too low. We've talked a lot about it. If he'd would have hit 2 inches higher...he would have walked up on a dead deer that morning.
2. As far as the spine being halfway down the body thru the chest....
Here are some pix from my doe I butchered today...
As you can see, in this first pic, I have the tape across the shoulder area, further forward than we like to hit. Even there, the spine is not at the halfway point. The chest is 12" deep, which puts the center at 6", and the bottom of the spinal bones are at 4.5"...
• (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/curt/ribcage.JPG)
In this pic, the tape is right about where we like to hit them,tight to the front leg. The chest here is about 13", which puts the center at 6.5", bottom of the spinal bones are at 4". A full 2.5" higher than center...
• (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/curt/ribcage1.JPG)
• (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/curt/ribcage2.JPG)
Good stuff!!
The dog tracking book "Dead On" I think has some great one lung information. From the pics I see today I figure the doe I shot this year was above the spine, and therefore, above the lungs. No blood sign with a Snuffer after the arrow came out 40 yards away. Thanks for the pics, they should be archived somewhere.
Great information guys! very stimulating and I do believe this is the real "Hunting University" !! Thanks a bunch!
:clapper:
Guru,
I've been a bowhunter ed instructor and a wildlife biologist for more than 30 years. Those pictures you posted are the most enlightening I've ever witnessed. Thank-you!
Since starting deer hunting in 1970 (I used to think it was 1969 but I was wrong) I've hit two deer above the spine -- just above. I knew I was too high but thought I was low enough. Both resulted in long blood trails that petered out and no deer. These two deer were among the closest shots I've ever taken (thus the high hits but boy I kicked myself for blowing such gimmee shots!).
I've killed several deer from tree stands where I was so low the arrow exited at the midline of the body between the forelegs. Both shots got the bottom of the heart and resulted in profuse blood trails and found deer in less than 100 yards.
I'm sure I've single-lunged some deer but also got heart or liver in these cases and deer were easily found, again in less than 100 yards.
I've talked to vets and took a class in college and to become an EMT. Pneumothorax occurs when the thoracic cavity is punctured. The cavity fills with blood slowly suffocating the victim or quickly killing the victim if lungs, heart or major veins or arteries are cut.
I think it is very important the deer not know the source of the trouble. Give a deer a cause and direction of the trouble and the adrenalin dump can take a deer many yards quicker than you can climb down the tree. This is one reason I'm exremely reluctant to bleat at or otherwise try to stop a deer unless I don't think it will stop on its own.
By the way, 1st aid for a chest puncture (sucking chest wound) is to put an airtight bandage (plastic sheeting under bandage) over the hole. This helps restore proper pressure. Of course this does nothing to stop the internal bleeding (if more than a collasped lung) and the eventual pneumothorax.
Agree Curt. Good pics. This is an average doe, correct? Exactly what I have found.
Now- turn over the carcass. (I measure the outside circum. of the carcass with a cloth tape). I will gladly concede an inch- not going to argue about a knuckle length. But if you shoot above the half way point- particularly where the heart lays- you are on/crowding the spine. An inch above that and you are over the spine. This is what happens often with guys out of tree-stands thinking they have a high lung. This is why Bryce saw two does drop in their tracks when he hit them in what appeared to be mid-way. I have lost four deer in 33 years of bowhunting and all of them were because they were too high. The first I was convinced of high lung until I tracked it for 3 miles in the snow, learned a great lesson, then started studying anatomy.
Also notice that the sternum on your pic takes up 2.5". So the heart/lung area comprises an area about 6" x 6". (narrower on the front- wider in the back).
Now look at the pic of the big buck I posted. It is almost identical only with larger proportions. The spine at the front end of the chest cavity (where the heart lays) is 7" down. It moves up to 6" as you move back along the lungs. Then there was 6" x 7" of vital lung/heart cavity (The liver lays on the back line). Then 3"-3.5" of sternum. The total from top to bottom is 15". So- I guess if we are being technical- you are correct- it is NOT truly HALF WAY. It is in the low 40s%.
I still think the 2-D drawings give the impression that a guy can shoot a couple inches below the top line and still be lung. I just do not see it that way with all my studies.
I always pick a spot half way and below. When I hit that I never have a problem. And I autopsy most of my deer.
My deer from KS this year was possible because of this knowledge. http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=097741
He was just 6-8 yards from my stand. I was able to lace the arrow right behind the shoulder blade and 6" down off his back line. I took out the top of the onside lung while still taking out the bottom of the offside. Had I hit 1.5" higher I would have hit the spine (another autopsy conclusion.)
I stand corrected. Excellent discussion. I will keep studying it and second guess my conclusions- until next week when I take my late season does!
:bigsmyl:
Dan in KS
My guidance counselor in Middle School only had one lung. He chased me out of the school one Saturday and he didn't die. I think he lived to about 70.
Now thats funny John!!
Excellent Curt as always!!! :bigsmyl:
Thanks guys we can all learn from these great picks. :thumbsup:
Tracy
If you aim at the sweet spot and wait for the good angle you wont have to worry about it. If you focus on it your gonna do it.
The pics shown by Guru and Dan are great -- it really makes you aim differently depending on a ground shot vs a treestand shot. I'm usually in a tree -- so if I hit them 1/2 way up I'm well under the spine due to angle. But you guys are spot on that a lot of hunters blame a lost deer on the "void" and they absolutely do NOT have a void. They have hit above the spine and simple strapped the deer and didn't realize it.
Secondly, they can absolutely survive a single lung hit, barring no severed nerves. I shot the biggest buck I've ever loosed an arrow at 2 seasons ago on opening day (Oct 15th give a day or so) and watched him in his bed for the remainder of daylight expecting him to die at any time. He was coughing and weezing like he had Tuberculosis. He didn't day in the daylight so I went back in teh morning ready to get my hands on my wallhanger and he was gone. No more blood after the bed. The blood trail leading to his bed was extremely bubbly.
Fast forward to the 2nd week of our rifle season in WV -- the week after Thanksgiving -- and he was killed on the adjacent property by a friend well over 1/2 mile away. One lung was shriveled completely, the other working fine and he was pushing a doe when shot. My shot went in tight to the elbow and out in front of the other shoulder -- I hit too far forward on a quartering away shot.
I've seen photos from a taxidermist friend of a large buck's lung that had calcified around a broadhead from at least 1 year prior to have calcification, more than likely it was more than that.
So...yes, a deer can live after a true single lung hit. But I'd say it's a rarity as usually you'd hit a major artery or vein resulting in bleeding to death, or another organ.
Great discussion though.
Thanks for all the input. This has been great. I agree too- this stuff should stay in archives as great education stuff.
Again- MERRY CHRISTMAS. God invaded our world! WOW
Dan in KS
I certainly have been educated. Thanks for the dialog folks.
I'll keep a watch on this one.
Here is a picture of the rib cage of a deer with an arrow still imbedded in the chest cavity. The arrow shaft itself was still in place a year later (you can see the nock at the top in the picture) and was covered in cartilage around the shaft. You can see where the shaft entered just below the spine and then out between the ribs on the other side. Absolutely two holes through the chest cavity, yet the deer survived.
This deer was killed well after the initial arrow hit. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/Jlasch/P1010128.jpg)
While I've had plenty of experience with the subject from a bowhunting experience, I may be able to help most by approaching the subject from my medical background. First of all, lungs are made of soft, compliant tissue, and the circulation through them is a low pressure system. The pressure in the pulmonary artery (to the lungs) is only about a quarter as high as the pressure in the rest of the body's circulation. Furthermore, the mammalian lung contains a number of reflex mechanisms that shunt blood away from a "bad" lung and toward a good one. All this means that 1) There's lot of "give" in the lung cavity, 2) Lungs don't bleed like the rest of the body because the pressure is lower, and 3) The body can get along remarkably well on one lung, at least for a while. The main reason penetrating lung injuries kill is because they cause what's called a pneumothorax-- an air leak under high pressure (in some cases) between the lung and the surrounding cavity. People tolerate a pneumothorax on one side quite well, because the blood is circulated toward the good lung, which has plenty of room to "give". However, a pneumothorax on BOTH sides is an emergency--you have to reduce the pressure between the lung and the chest wall promptly or the patient will die. If you follow this reasoning through, you will understand the difference in lethality between a one lung and a double lung hit. Sorry for all the technical terms, but this is the way it works. I hope this helps. Don
Whip- that is amazing.
Thanks Don. Great info. Confirms what many have stated about what they were convinced was a one lung shot and the longevity of the animal.
Dan
the only deer i can verify with certainty that i 1 lunged was the first deer i shot with trad gear. It as a 80lb yrling. I 1 lunged it. it ran about 175 yrds twistin n turnin. actually it piled up just 90 yrds away. But that deer was dead within 15 mins. n with only one lung it looked like the tate/labianca murders the last 25 yds. I checked durin the field dress....1 lung.
I lost a deer this yr i was sure i doubled lunged. tracked the deer 70 yds n jumped it. I backed out n came back 2 hours later jumped it again. tracked it another 50 yds but lost blood. Never recovered that deer :( but the blood was fairly good. BRIGHT red, bubbles etc.
the i shot a 90 doe n hit high. listened to what i thought was the deer goin down. was dark and i wasnt sure of the hit. so i backed out. Came back n tha mornin n found a deer, chewed up by possums 77 yds from my stand. on "autopsy" it had a lil paper cut sized inscision on top the near lung and the arrows punched through about 1 inch from the top the far lung. I guess that could maybe be a double lung or a single lung. but the deer went down alot sooner than i expected.
Whip thats the void that we are talking about tracked to many deer that people hit to high and that is the void that does exist.My cousin did the same thing and the deer was killed in gun season with his arrow in the same area the lungs had no problem with the arrow in the cavity.If you hit to low or high the same thing will happen.
Was hoping a Doc would get on and answer. There is alot going on in a punctured lung, not just one detail causing death but rather a whole compliment of things. Get a chance talk to yuor dac and ask silly questions - or your local paramedics (we have them in the firehouse) - Those cats no a thing or two about what will save or kill a traumatic lung injured patient!
Gurus pics were eye opening! and Whip - that is amazing - I have heard tell of this but never seen an actual pic! I had something similar happen many many yrs ago but my arrow had not actually penetrated main chest cavity.
Great discussion,
J
Yeah, thanx for sharing.
Great information collected and shared here. Good job guys.
Makes one feel even better when the shot is great and the deer drops in plain sight!
My brother-in-law shot a 3pt from a treestand pretty much straight down had about 12" of penitation, the deer went about 35 yds before stopping he said for about 30-45seconds before walking off out of sight. We track the deer for 300-400yds before we found it. In that time it took him to travel that distance he had gone across a creek bottom and then went up a hill side that had a nearly vertical section that was about 8 foot in length (he went up the steepist part of that hill I know I was climbing and trailing him and there was a drop of blood in the middle of that near vertical setion)it was about 30 feet from the bottom of the hill to the first bench, it continued up hill for about another 20 feet traversing the hillside at a upward slopping angle to the next bench then traveled along that bench before getting to the Point running up the hill before dieing and sliding down to the first bench, he had NEVER bedded. We nick-named that deer the Goat because of it climbing that hill. When I gutted that deer only one lung had been hit and damage only to that lung. He was using a Bear Razor stainless steel. Deer can be very tenatious sometimes, not doing what is typically thought they will do. I really wish he had gone to the creek that day. My Brother-in-Law still can't believe I climbed that hill where I did to track that deer, that day. DANNY
I have single lung shot two deer. Both were autopsied and no other organs were damaged from the shot. The first deer went about 90 yards and dropped, the second went less than 50 yards. I heard both crash and kick for a few seconds.
Personally I don't think a deer could go a mile with a single lunch shot, mostly because I know lungs are extremely well vascularized and I would assume it would bleed out very quickly, however I suppose its possible.
Don... sure appreciate the professional medical view you bring to this discussion. Lethality subjects are always hot button topics and need the grounding of an expert comment.
Joe... Been seeing pics like that since back in the sixties. I'm always amazed.
Since I have little to add here I'll post this pic from this fall.
(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/TmPotter47/c4-1.jpg)
I let this deer pass because I didn't see a high percentage shot. No margin for error and likely one lung penetration.
To add to Don's description here's mine. I'm a Veterinarian if you need credientials.
Envision that there are 2 spaces in the chest each holds one lung and they are seperated down the middle by a thin tissue called the mediastinum. This tissue creates 2 seperate areas of negative pressure.
If you arrow creates a break in one side without rupturing the mediastinum then one lung collapses while the other still exist in a negative pressure situation so it won't collapse.
If your arrow creates a break in the chest wall AND ruptures the mediastinum, even if the other lung is not hit, you create a bilateral (both sides) pneumothorax and both lungs collapse.
I had a one lung experience on Nov. 10 of this year. Had a large BB come in close to my tree an didn't seem to want to move out only 5 yds or so. I kept telling myself aim LOW LOW LOW. Upon release my arrow was sticking almost straigh up out of back an looked like maybe 10"of pentration. I was using a 48# osage selfbow with a cane arrow an stone point all made by me, right away I didn,t like the looks of things but to late now. I had a very good visual for 50 yds an he left at a erratic run, arrow hitting all kinds of brush. I waited about an hour an started after him, figured not to have much blood because of extreme high arrow an no prior experience with stone, started tracking by leaf an track sign, I noticed almost immediatley that one hoof spleyed extra wide every time it hit the dirt, finally at about 40 yds had a little speck of blood an this kept getting slowly better, every overhead branch that hit arrow would show blood splatter. Very errattic trail, believe arrow hitting on brush caused this. At 150 yds found tail part of arrow an lots of blood, deer fell an broke cane arrow , got up an only went 12 yds or so an was dead. Stone point went between ribs an down into lung 4 or5" Deer had blood on mouth an nose so assume filled up an suffucated. What impressed me the most was the strength of cane arrow, never broke until deer feel on it, also point was hafted with pine pitch glue an sinew wrap an was still tite in notched arrow, Hope this helps ya some. Bob
Charlie..that picture is priceless, and I hope everyone pays attention to it. Last season I shot a beautifull buck with a shot that looked similar to what your picture just showed. The only difference was that my deer was more broadside than that. While my arrow went right where I wanted it to...I never found the deer despite 2 days of looking. It was the first deer I have lost in a number of years. I was devistated. I attributed the loss to the fact that I was in a pretty high treestand, and the deer was pretty close to my tree. One of two things happend. Either I only got one lung, and the deer either survived or traveled too far for me to recover, or I got a deflection due to the angle, and the arrow did not actually enter the chest cavity.
Needless to say...it was a hard lesson, and I passed on a big buck this season because of a similar shot angle. I also do not hang my stands over 15 feet anymore.
To add another medical persepective- while a single lung puncture causing a pneumothorax (air in the space between the lung and the chest wall) on just one side can often be tolerated in humans, if there is a large hole/leak of air (from, say a broadhead) a TENSION pnemothorax may occur. In this case the pneumothorax is under pressure and can collapse both the punctured lung and compress the lung on the other side as well as the heart and vessels in between (the "mediastinum"). This, if untreated, can be fatal and may account for death in an animal with a single lung hit.
Didn't post this earlier and I hope Dr. Gross of IA doesn't mind, but since this thread seems to be winding down, thought I'd share the following posts saved from a Pulmonologist (Lung Dr) five years ago on another site explaining what was asked. It is very enlightening:
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From: LTG Date: 19-Oct-05
I am a Pulmonologist (Lung Dr) and avid archer. As a disclaimer, I am not privy to what others have seen or witnessed. I am only trained in normal mammalian anatomy. As such, I offer the following:
1) The lungs are not "glued" to the chest wall. That said, they are mechanically linked by fluid forces between the chest wall pleural surface and the lung pleural surface. The example I use for my students is to take a zip lock bag, put in a very small amount of fluid to "wet" the surfaces and close the bad squeezing out all the air. Then try to separate one bag surface from the other. Can't be done without ripping the bag or putting air into the system. During normal respiration, the chest wall expands a small amount and the lung expand to remain constantly in contact no matter how fast or sharply you breath in. The diaphragm moves up and down a good deal as well, but again, the lungs are in continual contact with the diaphragm. The lungs never separate from chest wall - pleural space is a "potential space" until disease causes fluid to accumulate (effusion), bleeding (hemothorax), or chest wall puncture or lung rupture (pneumothorax). There is no anatomic pr physiologic void.
2) the lungs of all large mammals have recesses that reach above the horizontal lowermost reach of the spinal column. I will gladly attach computer tomographic images (CT scan) from man, pig, sheep to demonstrate that you can not design a path that goes under the spine that will not puncture at least one lung (assuming we are talking about the chest cavity).
3) Not all pneumothoraces are lethal. Even bilateral lung puncture can be survived if there is not a large "sucking chest wound" and/or the lung slices quickly seal up with blood clot. Most of these animals will die, but a few can travel a long way even with "double lung" hits if only the tops of the lungs are sliced.
So, there is no void except in the beliefs of some; you can hit an animal below the spine and not recover it.
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one common misconception is that a pneumothorax (collapsed lung) is an all or nothing phenomena. This is not true. Now certainly with a big open chest wound, most certainly the lung will collapse completely, but this still happens on a breath by breath basis (breath in creates negative pressure drawing air through open wound) and can take many minutes (= many yards if running). Also, if chest wound seals up (narrow slit, fat, clot, etc), lung may only leak a little air during expiration (positive pressure in lung to get breath out) and only partially collapse. Humans and deer have two separate pleural cavities (one for each lung), so dropping one lung leaves the other relatively unscathed. The bison has a single pleural space and was relatively "easy" to kill with even a one lung shot. That said, I have heard that an arrow to the chest of a bison may still take large fractions of any hour to put it down.
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In addition, remember your fluid dynamics and air flow resistance factors. A deer trachea (windpipe) provides a much bigger cross sectional area than most any broad head wound (area of circle vs intersecting slits). Thus, air will still follow path of least resistance and animal will be able to inspire until pressure in pleural space impedes air entry through normal channels. This scenario also presumes a "sucking" chest wound whereby entrained air through wound on inspiration does not escape on expiration (think ball valve). Very deadly. However, a true open pneumothorax (air in and out wound during respiratory cycle) can be tolerated for a very long time (ask many of our young men getting shrapnel wounds overseas or any trauma center doc)
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The bottom line on one lung hits is that they are very survivable if no major pulmonary artery is cut. Think of the lung arteries as roots of a tree. They start out pretty big as the main artery comes out of the heart, then branch repeatedly until down to the size of capillaries ((10 microns diameter). If you center punch the root (hilum) of the lung, you have cut an artery only a bit smaller than the aorta. Although at considerably lower pressure than the aorta, the pulmonary artery to each lung receives 50% of the cardiac output. No other organ can boast this fraction of total blood flow. This is the major reason a double lung hit is so deadly. Combine the blood loss with large volume pneumothorax and the animal may just fall over after a couple of steps. However,most times I suspect they bleed to death before they asphyxiate. Now if you do not cut a big artery, the bleeding may stop, the lung may only partially collapse, and the animal will be able to travel a long way (or may survive). Much more similar to a gut shot, yet in my experience these guys do not lay down. I suspect many are lost at great distance. Those that live must not get infected and must endure the pain and athlectic disadvantage of a pneumothorax. For those of you who have had a spontaneous pneumo, you know about the pain and shortness of breath. This would be fascinating, albeit ethically difficult research..
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Thanx Dr. Gross
Good post, Zbone!
Good deal Zbone - that is very informative and intresting!
In 1983 I killed an "Almost P&Y buck".
When I had him hanging I noted one rib had a node in it about the size of a golf ball.
After butchering it, I took a band saw to the node, looking for a .22 slug or something, but found nothing other than healed bone tissue.
I decided to try brain tanning on this deer so I stretched the hide and started scraping it.. When I did, I found an"X" shaped scar, but with scrapping it opened up.
Ran my finger through the hole as I still had the hair on.. Sure enough, short hairs.
No doubt in my mind that deer took a 4 bladed broadhead in the chest and survived.
FWIW, our season opened on Sept 15 I killed him on Nov 3.
Guys- I started this thread and wanted to THANK YOU all for GREAT input. This is so valuable. I hope it all makes us better students and hunters.
Happy New Year
Dan in KS