A fellow trad bowhunter/friend and i were talking the other day about broadhead edges, styles, etc and we ended up relieving past bloodtrails and came up with a few ?'s or quirks pretaining to broadheads(remember think outside of the box)! One was a 3 vs 2 blade head, after WWI, the Geneva Convention did away with the Trench Knife, a trident shaped blade used in trench warfare! It was basically a handheld Snuffer, a wound from it was nearly impossible to stitch up, and a single cutting edge became mandatory thereafter! A few others were... How a Grizzly broadhead, as well as a few others in the single bevel design are so popular based solely on their ability to shatter bone, when a broadhead kills by blood loss, not shattering bones! Its also popular with lighter poundage setups, which we couldnt figure out cuz surely a rib bone of say a moose would take alot of the "Umph" out the penetration of some of these lighter setups, not to mention a shoulder blade :campfire:
It would be hard to maintain a 3-blade, single bevel, file sharpened BH! LOL!
We had a big go around about this a while back. Being with the medical examiners office I to from experience that certain edges will heal/clot certain ways. But I must warn you that the majority of guys like them razor sharp. I have discussed this before and I give up. Its all what you like. This was the link
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=084135#000000
OK. I'll bite. Deer don't have corpsmen to stitch up non-lethal wounds and a triangular wound is more prone to secondary infection. Any sound broadhead will be lethal in the vitals.
The triangular (and cruiciform) bayonet was also found to be disabling even if not sharp . . . at least on dogs and humans. Mosin-Nagant bayonet for instance. The shock of a piercing wound was enough to take the opponent out of the fight whereas a sharp stab from a flat bayonet was not as effective; but it did MUCH better at non-combat or rear guard uses and was much mre popular with the troops. In combat it is better to disable your enemy as that takes additional resources to transport him off the field.
And, if you followed Dr. Asbel's insightful work, the triangular head has more of a tendency to stop when it hits bone.
PS - There have been six Geneva Conventions from 1864 up to 1977 and not all points were ratified by the U.S. Most points concern civilians and the treatment of prisoners of war. Do you really think we'd embrace the flame thrower and give up a three-edged dagger?
Knew id open a Can O' Worms! I am not a history/military expert, but i do know that the trench dagger was discussed, along with mustard gas i believe after WWI! Im not trying to ratify one setup or another, a guys mind just wanders when the season ends! Cant even small game hunt here in MN cuz of all the snow we have been getting lately:)
MN: Another reason for the single bevel is because of the nature of the bevel they can be made sharper -- 25 degrees, vs two 22.5 degree bevels coming together to make a 45 degree bevel on a double edge, or 60degree edge on a three blade. Whether they hold up as well depends on steel hardness, etc.
I don't think many would argue that a three-blade doesn't leave a bigger, more difficult to close hole than a two-blade head. I certainly won't.
Not sure I buy the sharpest/cleanest cut is the easiest for the body to clot. The consensus of a lot of folks who have spoken to this issue before, including some surgeons, is that a clean cut caused by a razor sharp edge is the most difficult to staunch. :deadhorse:
All I know is, I can cut a finger open with a crosscut saw and it bleeds very little and clots pretty fast. I can cut myself shaving so small a cut you can't even find it except for the blood pouring out. It can take half an hour to stop.
I didnt really believe it either, but who am i too argue with a guy who does it for a living ya know! I believe it has something to do with stitching up a straight/clean cut vs a jagged/zig zag style cut!
Makes no difference to me. Make any style sharp and I will glue it on the end of my heavy, or light arrow. Providing I hit vitals, it will kill deer, bear, elk and whatever else I shoot at. 2 blade, 3 blade, serated, single bevel, double bevel and whatever style they make. I read somewhere on here a while back where a fella said, "how far on the other side to want your arrow to land?". That spells it out for me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
MN: Another reason for the single bevel is because of the nature of the bevel they can be made sharper -- 25 degrees, vs two 22.5 degree bevels coming together to make a 45 degree bevel on a double edge, or 60degree edge on a three blade. Whether they hold up as well depends on steel hardness, etc.
You can make a double bevel every bit as shallow as a single with no strength penalty. Pythagoras had a theorum about that. Try it - take a profile cross-sectional drawing of a single bevel, cut the paper and replace it tipped to a central axis as a double bevel - Whola! Same amount of metal, same strength. STOS, I believe, are 25° double bevel out of the box.
Don't swallow marketing tales blindly. The single bevel does, perhaps, have a twist benefit. I can't argue against that as I haven't seen it tested 1:1 double vs. single in a repeatable medium (bone is natural & varies).
Seems to me if Pythagoras files both sides of a broadhead to acheive the same profile as you get with a 25 degree single bevel, that would mean 12.5 degrees on each side and the bevel will be halfway up to the ferrule to achieve it. I haven't tried it so I don't know for fact. STOS claim a 25 degree bevel, but that is on each side of the blade (= 50 degrees)
There is a point. . . you can do it, but we normally don't.
I also question the absolute need for shaving sharp blades, since we are pushing it thru the animal at speeds up to 180 and more feet per second. There is some consensus here that sharp is important.
I tend to agree with much of the above. Everything I have been taught in school says a good clean cut bleeds more and takes longer to clot.
A good clean cut also grows back together neater and is better cleaned and prepared for suturing by the surgeon. I believe they tend to heal better than a ragged tear. Surgeons would much rather see a clean cut.
A good question that regards what WE DO is,however, if I put a stick thru an animal's lungs, not to mention a very sharp one at that, will it live long enough to worry about clotting and stitching and whether the scar looks bad ?
Charlie. .re: double vs single. . test it at home, stick one (SB) thru anything that is at least as thick as the broadhead is long, and then stick the other (DB) thru it. . try a roast, or a melon, or an apple or potato. seems like a pretty simple test to me.
ChuckC
:deadhorse: :nono:
:rolleyes:
sometimes we split hairs no pun intended. when we start haveing these conversations.I say sharp is sharp.2-blade or 3. sarrated or not.there is NO cure for a properly placed arrow!
Amen
Stumpkiller. My statement re strength is directed at the 25 degree bevel. The more acute the angle, the sharper the cutting edge, but at the expense of strength. Thinner isn't as strong as thick, all else being equal.
I shoot STOS as well, along with some other heads, and STOS are not 25 degrees out of the box. Closer to 45-50 degrees. Can be filed to 12 1/2 on a side for a 25 degree cutting edge, but that would make for a wide, thin and weaker cutting edge.
All broadheads can be made sharp enough to kill critters, of course, but the more acute the angle of the cutting edge, the sharper the edge can be made, other things being equal like steel thickness and hardness, etc.
The relationship between cutting edge angle and sharpness is the reason so many people complain about not being to get three-blade broadheads sharp (without rebeveling the angle of the blades). Can three-blade heads be made sharp. Certainly. And certainly sharp enough to kill critters. We all know that. Can they be made as sharp as a single bevel. Nope.
I shoot single bevel, two- and four-blade double bevel and three-bladed heads depending on the critters I'm hunting and what I want the heads to do. They each have advantages and disadvantages vis-a-vis each other.
You're right boys. :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
Lots of things are said about all the different BH....I've shot Zwickey...4 blades, razor sharpe and an arrow that flys good! I tryed the high priced single bevels...shot one animal with them went back and put my "Z" back on!! WE tend to put to much on the type of BH we shot and not focus on the THINGS that make all the different...sharp BH...GOOD arrow flight...SHOT placement!!! I just shot a deer the other night, with my "Z" At @18 yards with a 48# bow, arrow weight 550 gr, from an elevated Treestand of 16 feet...I HIT THE DEER HIGH IN THE BACKBONE...THE "Z" HAD 1/4" OF IT STICKING OUT THE OPPSITE SIDE..AFTER THE BLEEDER BLADE CUT A RIB IN HALF!!! I'll try to get a picture of the backbone with BH posted! I don't care what BH your shooting....if it's not sharpe, with good arrow flight, and the shot placed correctly, it ain't worth a poop!!!!
:knothead: :goldtooth:
Trojans used the tri-honed point on the tips of their spears to pierce armor, just like the trocar tip on Muzzy broadheads as well as Thunderheads, and many, many others. Best bone splitting design ever made and it's centuries old......literally. I'll take a 3 blade over all others anyday.
Shoulder blade never was a problem till I started shooting a #48 recurve, especially not on a whitetail. I have hit a couple and had no trouble busting through and into the lungs, but that wasn't with a recurve bow either.
I say keep em sharp, hit your mark, and don't take low percentage shots. Deer die by hemoraging and a well placed broadhead in the lungs will do it every time no matter if you like 2-3-or 4 blade broadheads, the deer literally drowns in it's own fluids. Game over.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Stumpkiller/Bowhunting/Bevel.jpg)
That part is understood Charlie. You can do it.
I am pretty certain that if you lay your file on the ferrule of the broadhead and use it as a guide,you will not achieve that severe of an angle. We don't normally do this to a breadhead. 25 degrees on a side, even maybe as little as 18 - 19 degrees, depending upon the width of the broadhead.
I am guessing on the 3-1 long narrow ones you can't get anywhere beyond maybe 20 degrees on a side without impacting the ferrule. Meaning for most of us we can't do that.
Now. . You can still do it. Just sharpen with a file along the length of the head like HH used to have to do, but most sharpeners won't allow for that action.
The "rest of the story" regarding single bevels is noteworthy, but in the end, we all use what we feel most comfortable with.
I sure see that lots of us read, assess and buy new things based upon others' experiences with them, but in the end, after a while, we tend to pick what works well for us and go to them.
The ability to discuss it here is an awesome tool. I can't afford to buy one of everything just to try it out, but between us all, we can.
Between us all we have such an amount of actual, honest to God, field experience, in nearly any bowhunting related endeavor, as to be, well, revered and respected, and hopefully nurtured.
Please keep sharing and discussing.
ChuckC
On the clotting/suturing of a smooth cut vs. jagged: Any physiology book will explain that as the surface area of a cut increases, so also does the clotting factor (i.e. faster clotting). Consider two cuts both 3inches total in length - one is perfectly straight the other is zig zag in shape (jagged like a tear instead of a cut). The total surface area is greater on the jagged 3 inch cut than the straight 3inch cut - the jagged one will clot quicker.
My guess (repeat guess) is the surgeon woudl prefer to sew up a straight cut AND if also possible he/she means that the two sides of a straight cut are more apt to line up perfectly - this would assimilate pressure and speed clotting.
Just a physiological persepctive on this - keep bh's sharp
mg
QuoteOriginally posted by two4hooking:
It would be hard to maintain a 3-blade, single bevel, file sharpened BH! LOL!
Gonna have to disagree with you there. Our Phoenix broadhead is just that...a single bevel three blade and they are really easy to sharpen with a file :D
Shoot what flies where you look keep them sharp, and hit them in the vitals that works best. LCH
Simmons does this best for me.
Simmons does some serious damage!!! Buddy of mine who shots 700gr arrows out of a 70# recurve of his own making loves 'em!!!
I still remember seeing olFred Bear whipping out his trusty file and touch up his broadhead and headed back out.He did alright.
QuoteOriginally posted by LCH:
Shoot what flies where you look keep them sharp, and hit them in the vitals that works best. LCH
There be the truth. A sharp broadhead in the vitals beats a marginal hit or a similar hit with a dull broadhead. If we could agree on one there would be 2,500 or so different head designs that never needed to be made. We'll see what the next great innovation is. Future collectors will be pleased.
I gave up on the last 3:1 head I tried (Modoc Chiefs) 'cause I couldn't file sharpen them. Just as ChuckC said: the ferrule gets in the way. The tips curled, as well. Solved that by shooting a head that's not 3:1 ;)
Starting to think the box ain't quite big enough. :dunno: