Trad Gang

This past fall I buried my 4th bow in three years.
Rather than wondering why and finding few good answers, I have decided (if possible) to just look for a non-wood model.
I am at a loss as to where to look though.
Any suggestions?.

Hoyt Gamemaster 2, dorado, or buffalo. Tradtech Titan from Lancaster archery

QuoteOriginally posted by BCD:
Hoyt Gamemaster 2, dorado, or buffalo. Tradtech Titan from Lancaster archery

X2

Thanks

Black Swan, Morrison, A&H

I would add Hoyt Excel to the above mentioned.

What is your preferred overall bow length?

What is your draw length?

I belive PSE makes one called the coyote.

QuoteOriginally posted by botech:
This past fall I buried my 4th bow in three years.
Rather than wondering why and finding few good answers, I have decided (if possible) to just look for a non-wood model.
I am at a loss as to where to look though.
Any suggestions?.

Can you tell me exacly what you mean by 'buried'?

Are you breaking bows?...if so, are these bows you have made or someone elses?

I have wood bows that have shot many many many arrrows. How is it that you are wearing them out?

Quinn Stallion is a great inexpensive bow. My daughter and I both have one. The classic is pretty too.

Remind me not to offer you a loaner...lol

I'm curious as to the kind of wood bows that are breaking on you?

I'm not asking the bowyers names but the kind of wood that makes up the bow.

Are they self bows? laminated? any glass in the bows?

"Inquiring minds want to know!"....lol

Thanks in advance!
God bless,Mudd

Me thinks, that we are not getting the full story  ;)

I agree Walt more info is needed, are these selfbows or what ?

I agree with ferret.I've built bows for 20 years and have many and sold and built for fiends bows that are shot 10;s of thousands of times and are some have been in use hunting for years.
I personaly am shooting a 60"s 56 #'s @26"s that I build 2 for a guy and his wife and he only took his.Her bow was hideing in my bow shop for 12 years in 06 I had 2 strokes and had to go down from 61#'s.I dug it out And I'VE SHOT AND HUNTED WITH IT SENCE 07.
  Not wanting to step on anyones toe's but it sounds like your bows wer'nt built and tillered to well.

QuoteOriginally posted by Avid Archer:
I would add Hoyt Excel to the above mentioned.

What is your preferred overall bow length?

What is your draw length?

26" inch.
I am looking for a bow with no wood in it at all.
Not that this isnt a heavy enough order, I really want to try and stay around 54-56" and have 70#

QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by botech:
This past fall I buried my 4th bow in three years.
Rather than wondering why and finding few good answers, I have decided (if possible) to just look for a non-wood model.
I am at a loss as to where to look though.
Any suggestions?.

Can you tell me exacly what you mean by 'buried'?

Are you breaking bows?...if so, are these bows you have made or someone elses? [/b]

first was a mamba that blew the top limb.
Next was a bear 48Mag that blew the top limb.
Next was a mamba that split the top and bottom limb and last was a 48Mag that blew apart...de-laminated totally.
(Bear said that the 14 month bow was out of warranty and left it at that!)
All bows shooting alaskan shafts with 250 grain heads.

QuoteOriginally posted by FerretWYO:
I have wood bows that have shot many many many arrrows. How is it that you are wearing them out?

Thats a great question!.
I shoot alot but not more than 10K rounds through the last bow.
 :dunno:

QuoteOriginally posted by Walt Francis:
Me thinks, that we are not getting the full story   ;)  

All my bows have 2 sets of beaver balls and double nocks attached.
all bows are shot 10grn.+
I generally dont walk the string but have on occasion.
I have use Dacron (15 strand) on two bows and Flemish (18) on the other two.
One bow (most recent blow up) was used in a few heavy rains but there was no openings in the finish...until it opened itself up.

Have they been dry fired, hot, or had limb tips hit on anything while shooting.

Boy you have some bad luck.You might want to ask your wife what you did that made her mad.  :laughing:

QuoteOriginally posted by longbowben:
Boy you have some bad luck.You might want to ask your wife what you did that made her mad.   :laughing:  

Or it could be that   :laughing:

QuoteOriginally posted by botech:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by FerretWYO:
I have wood bows that have shot many many many arrrows. How is it that you are wearing them out?

Thats a great question!.
I shoot alot but not more than 10K rounds through the last bow.
   :dunno:   [/b]

do you really mean 10K rounds?
As in 10,000 shots?
sorry if this is a stupid question.
Just trying to understand.
Seems like you are the exception to the rule on bow longevity. This might be extremely bad luck.
or could be bad care of the bow(s).
If there is bad care involved maybe we here in the gang can put our heads together to help you figure it out. If you are unknowingly or knowingly doing something to your bows that are wrecking them ( even if you think it should be fine to do ) I wouldn't be surprised  if it killed the non-wood bow too.

Somthing is not right.

Draw length too long? It may be over-working the bows? Even then it doesnt seem like that woudl hurt them. Those are all good bows you mentioned.

How do you store your bows,any excessive heat or cold from air ducts near by? do you hang them from a peg,or cradle type rack. do you use a stringer or the foot and bend method.What room of the house do you keep them in(living room,basement,bedroom)?

QuoteOriginally posted by FerretWYO:
Have they been dry fired, hot, or had limb tips hit on anything while shooting.

I take very good care of my bows, so no...none of the above

What are you string material are you using?

what type and weight of Your arrows You using?

QuoteOriginally posted by Zradix:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by botech:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by FerretWYO:
I have wood bows that have shot many many many arrrows. How is it that you are wearing them out?

Thats a great question!.
I shoot alot but not more than 10K rounds through the last bow.
   :dunno:   [/b]

do you really mean 10K rounds?
As in 10,000 shots?
sorry if this is a stupid question.
Just trying to understand.
Seems like you are the exception to the rule on bow longevity. This might be extremely bad luck.
or could be bad care of the bow(s).
If there is bad care involved maybe we here in the gang can put our heads together to help you figure it out. If you are unknowingly or knowingly doing something to your bows that are wrecking them ( even if you think it should be fine to do ) I wouldn't be surprised  if it killed the non-wood bow too. [/b]

Yes, 10,000 and maybe more but I really dont see that being too many.   :confused:  

I store everything in about 40-45% humidity in a home that is forced air.
I have wall hangers for all my bows that allow the bow to be stored horizonally.
I unstring my bows daily after shooting and I rarely ever do this without a stringer.
I have had bows blow that I have only used stringers on and others where I have used my body as the brace.
That said...I have never failed a bow in short order after self bracing to string it.

QuoteOriginally posted by botech:

...
all bows are shot 10grn.+
I generally dont walk the string but have on occasion.
I have use Dacron (15 strand) on two bows and Flemish (18) on the other two.
... [/QB][/QUOTE]

QuoteOriginally posted by lpcjon2:
How do you store your bows,any excessive heat or cold from air ducts near by? do you hang them from a peg,or cradle type rack. do you use a stringer or the foot and bend method.What room of the house do you keep them in(living room,basement,bedroom)?

I used to keep them in the basement during the winter but the last two never saw the basement   :nono:

QuoteOriginally posted by PEARL DRUMS:
Draw length too long? It may be over-working the bows? Even then it doesnt seem like that woudl hurt them. Those are all good bows you mentioned.

I shoot 26" on a 28" model

QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
What are you string material are you using?

Always dacron

QuoteOriginally posted by mysticguido:
what type and weight of Your arrows You using?

First 50# was 450 grain arrow
second 60# was 650grn arrow
third 65# was 650grn. arrow
last 70# was 650grn. arrow

70# 10,000 shots..maybe more if you're talking with each bow. I guess that's only 27 shots a day for a year.
Dang..
You must have arms of steel.

QuoteOriginally posted by Zradix:
70# 10,000 shots..maybe more if you're talking with each bow. I guess that's only 27 shots a day for a year.
Dang..
You must have arms of steel.

After blowing out three bows and having the mamba no longer offered in 70#...I was very careful not to over shoot the last one.
I can easily shoot over 70# (follow H.H. approach) but I cant find any recurve bow that I will trust anymore when it can be made that heavy.
I am really depressed on this last point   :(

I BET.

Do you shoot three under?

I had thought that Black Swan made a total graphite bow but I dont see anything devoid of wood on the site.
I really would rather have a wood riser but the wood in the limbs just has to go...if I can find the perfect combo

QuoteOriginally posted by Don Stokes:
Do you shoot three under?

I do.

I am currently shooting a 2 bear bows.  one is from 1972 and I have killed 2 deer with it and the other is a new one that has one deer.  I have only been shooting bows for 2 years so I practice a lot and I mean a lot...in early season I was shoot 100 to 200 arrows atleast twice a week and now I normally shoot around 50 arrows twice a week... Sometimes less sometimes more.  I really like to shoot so I really have to make myself stop shooting...

Anyway I did not mean to ramble on, but I am hard on my equipment and I have to say my bows shoot like they are brand new.  Both of my bows are 52"  

with a 26 inch draw length I would think you can draw any bow on the markey without blowing them
up.

How do you keep having to replace bows?  

Oh Oh I got it!!!!!! You replace the bows because when you miss a deer you slam them against the tree or ground...I would recommend not doing that!!!!!

Black swan takedowns have no wood in them unless ordered that way. Aluminum riser, carbon and foam core limbs with phenolic wedges.

Aren't there a lot of bowyers that'll make a carbon/foam/carbon limb.
Morisson, shrew, trad tech to name a few I THINK do.

I'd be worried you'd run in to the same problem though.

Hey,

Question...could it be that he had 2 bows that were 48amo that blew up because short bows cant handle that much poundage?  

I have heard of the mag48 blowing up on 29 inch draws but a 26?  Weird...maybe you are measuring your draw length from the wrong place?  an arrow rest in 2.3 to 3 inches long if you measured from the back and not the front you would lose 3 inches... 29 inch draw on a mag48 blowing up makes more sence.

Maybe I am wrong I dont know...?????

My first idea after reading all of this was bows are too short for your draw length.I too am surprized that they did that as yours is only26".Back to the grindstone I guess.Youll find one that willnot blow up on you.Especially,if you go to a lil; longer bow.Best of luck.

I asked about three under because that changes the stresses on the limbs, and the effect would be magnified on those short bows. I recommend you go longer if you want to keep shooting that way.

I don't think wood is the problem.

How many winners have you had out of your last 5 lottery tickets?  If you say "0" then I would chalk it up to bad luck!

I hope you figure it out and good luck with your new bow.

I shoot longer bows, but draw 29".  I can't imagine the weight being a problem, I shoot 67#@28" so I am pulling about 70#.  27 arrows a day is not very many really.  Even if you only shoot 3 or 4 times a week that is 75 to 100 shots a session.  

Not sure what the problem is, but I know I sure don't want any of it.   :dunno:  

God Bless,
Nathan

Dude!  You have had rotten luck!  :dunno:

If you are breaking laminated wood bows, you are doing something seriously wrong.  There are laminated wood bows seeing daily service that are pushing 60 years old.

I'm not taking shots at you, just pointing out that the wood isn't the problem, and leaving wood behind probably isn't going to fix the issue.

Most of those (ie mamba) are production bows and aren't the quality of most custom bows. I watched my brother blow up a mamba as well. Try a good quality custom bow it will last longer then graphite. I've put 10's of thousands of rounds through my checkmate recurve and they keep going. I've shot my go-to checkmate for over 15 years, and Ishoot all spring, summer and fall and a bit in the winter.

I bet there are Bear production recurves out there with a million arrows or more through them.

This is either phenomenally bad luck or something odd being done to these bows.  To have one break in a lifetime of shooting is bad luck.  Four is just unheard of.

If I were you I would not walk out side during a Lightning storm

QuoteOriginally posted by FerretWYO:
If I were you I would not walk out side during a Lightning storm

:jumper:    :laughing:

I may be completely wrong but, if you are shooting that much and unstringing your bow daily, I could see where that would be putting stress on the limb tips. I think if you are shooting daily, maybe it would be better to leave the bow strung.  :dunno:

Yeah, the weight of those recurves is definitely not an issue. Many blokes shoot heavy recurves without a problem. I even dry-fired mine once, and it is fine.

I'm with two arrows, if your stringing and unstringing daily that is alot of extra stress. Most of my bows up to 80# never get unstrung unless I'm flying someplace.

I dont know what the problem might be but I do think there is a striking coincidence that the bows all seem to break on the upper limb.

You're cursed dude...lol...   there must be an ancient hex on you or something...

Suggestion; find the source of the problem. Wood bows are as beautiful as utilitarian. Breaking bows doesn't happen without some effort or misuse. Not to say you're misusing your equipment; but, a well made bow should pass a quarter million (+/-) arrows minimum before faltering.

QuoteOriginally posted by Two Arrows:
I may be completely wrong but, if you are shooting that much and unstringing your bow daily, I could see where that would be putting stress on the limb tips. I think if you are shooting daily, maybe it would be better to leave the bow strung.   :dunno:  

x2

i agee with that, leave them strung up .

I agree leave them strung up if your shooting daily. But something or someone is causing them to blow up man! I've had strings on old bear bows break and friends dry fire them and they are still shooting fine. Makes you wonder though with that kind of bad luck. I would find someone close, archery range,pro shooter,  that has shot alot and have them watch you shoot and look at your equipment and see if anything sticks out to them, you might just be overlooking something. Good Luck.( Post a U-Tube video of your shooting for all to view ) !!

Divecon from Australia had a similar problem with excessive breakage. Don't know if he figured it out or not- I sent him a link to this thread.

I leave my shooters strung all the time. I called the Widow folks about this (only one of mine is a widow) and they've left bows strung for more than 20 years with zero impact on the bow. Stringing and unstringing event with a bowstringer (the only way) is far more risky than leaving the bow strung.

If I thought I could only shoot my recurves 27 times per day -- I'd run from traditional equipment as fast as I could (with great regret) and call up the fellow who bought my compound.  I can't imagine it matters at all, within a person's physical limits, how many times they shoot these bows.

I've been stringing and unstringing my bow(s) almost daily for nearly 50 years.  Haven't had one break yet.

Botech:  Were the limbs on your bows beat up to start, perhaps some split glass, good size dents in the edges, etc?  That sort of thing can lead to breakage relatively quickly.

Orion: using a stringer correctly and using a stringer can be very different things  ;)  

Also, some stringers may be more error prone in usage than others.

I like tip to tip types, but once my strings get shot in I pretty much leave my bows strung all the time.

If you are shooting indoors, back away from the door frame.

Hey...

Did anyone ever find a bow that would fit his bill?
Or are we all still trying to figure out the "why"?

Whether the bow is filled with foam or wood it will break-or not. This has nothing to do with the 'filler' there is something else going on. IMO

I agree.

I think it may be a moisture or heat issue in the area you store the bows

there's a thought.
Maybe his rack ( I think he said he keeps them in a rack) is by a heating/ac vent...possibly with a whole house humidifier.

looking back I see you mention this before Mr. Jones. He did reply in a rack with a forced air heating system and what sounded like controlled humidity....you could certainly be on to something

I would get a moisture meter from HD or lowes. And test the area.

[/QUOTE]
I store everything in about 40-45% humidity in a home that is forced air.
I have wall hangers for all my bows that allow the bow to be stored horizonally.
I unstring my bows daily after shooting and I rarely ever do this without a stringer.
I have had bows blow that I have only used stringers on and others where I have used my body as the brace.
That said...I have never failed a bow in short order after self bracing to string it. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I would think the only way to have 40-45% humidity in Maine during the winter would to have some sort of humidifier.

Botech...

Is there a vent pretty close to where you keep your top limb tips in the rack?

Just grabbing straws here...maybe a chem room? cleaning solutions that may be venting. Or maybe pool chems...?

I'd love to see a picture of your bow storage area.
Maybe someone could spot a possible problem.
Not trying to be nosey..just trying to help you out.

Could be he is twisting the bow when he draws, either right hand or left, will the throw the bow off track.  The only thing that would cause this, other than physical pressure, would be exposure to extreme temps.  I have bows that have been in use for 60 years and have only had one break and that was another person twisting on it.  This fellow needs a reverse handled Howard Hill Tembo or Big Five, with a straight grip, 64" to more than match his 26" draw, and pay close attention to getting the bow into the hand without torquing and make certain that the release fingers are equal pressure on the string during the straight back part of the draw with a split finger standard draw.  He says he is trying to use Hill form, it works best with a Hill bow.  i have been known to torque up a grip on recurves shooting Hill style to the point of lifting the arrow off the shelf.

QuoteOriginally posted by salemons:
Quinn Stallion is a great inexpensive bow. M pretty too.

x2

Chris I have a 60# set of limbs on my Gamemaster2 you can have that bow for a while.......if you happen to blow up those limbs I have another set, so no worries! It's 58" long

I have never been able to figure out why your bows blow up, you always have plenty of weight for arrows and I've never noticed any torque when you shoot. i was thinking that maybe the nocks don't fit right? I have no idea.....

QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
Black swan takedowns have no wood in them unless ordered that way. Aluminum riser, carbon and foam core limbs with phenolic wedges.

Thanks for the clarification

QuoteOriginally posted by thewal2:
Hey,

Question...could it be that he had 2 bows that were 48amo that blew up because short bows cant handle that much poundage?  

I have heard of the mag48 blowing up on 29 inch draws but a 26?  Weird...maybe you are measuring your draw length from the wrong place?  an arrow rest in 2.3 to 3 inches long if you measured from the back and not the front you would lose 3 inches... 29 inch draw on a mag48 blowing up makes more sence.

Maybe I am wrong I dont know...?????

Thanks for thinking it through like that but no...I am a true 26"

QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
If you are breaking laminated wood bows, you are doing something seriously wrong.  There are laminated wood bows seeing daily service that are pushing 60 years old.

I'm not taking shots at you, just pointing out that the wood isn't the problem, and leaving wood behind probably isn't going to fix the issue.

I think that you have to be correct in your assessment.
This is why I am trying to find something that will take whatever I am doing   :rolleyes:  
I have been shooting competitively (on and off) for years and hunt yearly....nobody has ever seen whatever it is that I may be doing wrong   :(  
While I have been a practicing educator in archery for over 20 years, I dont claim to know everything and that's why I came here.    ;)

QuoteOriginally posted by Two Arrows:
I may be completely wrong but, if you are shooting that much and unstringing your bow daily, I could see where that would be putting stress on the limb tips. I think if you are shooting daily, maybe it would be better to leave the bow strung.   :dunno:  

I have thought this in the past too.
This is why I went to a stringer some time back.

QuoteOriginally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
I dont know what the problem might be but I do think there is a striking coincidence that the bows all seem to break on the upper limb.

I would have to agree that the upper limbs are telling me something but I gave alot to the fact that I shoot three under.

QuoteOriginally posted by Don Stokes:
Divecon from Australia had a similar problem with excessive breakage. Don't know if he figured it out or not- I sent him a link to this thread.

Thank you!!   :clapper:

QuoteOriginally posted by Bowwild:
I leave my shooters strung all the time. I called the Widow folks about this (only one of mine is a widow) and they've left bows strung for more than 20 years with zero impact on the bow. Stringing and unstringing event with a bowstringer (the only way) is far more risky than leaving the bow strung.

If I thought I could only shoot my recurves 27 times per day -- I'd run from traditional equipment as fast as I could (with great regret) and call up the fellow who bought my compound.  I can't imagine it matters at all, within a person's physical limits, how many times they shoot these bows.

This is a helpful bit of information for me and I believe that I will (in the future) leave them strung

QuoteOriginally posted by Zradix:
looking back I see you mention this before Mr. Jones. He did reply in a rack with a forced air heating system and what sounded like controlled humidity....you could certainly be on to something

To everyone who mentioned this...I think there has to be something to this.
I will use my sling psychrometer today and see whats up   :cool:

QuoteOriginally posted by Skipmaster1:
Chris I have a 60# set of limbs on my Gamemaster2 you can have that bow for a while.......if you happen to blow up those limbs I have another set, so no worries! It's 58" long

I have never been able to figure out why your bows blow up, you always have plenty of weight for arrows and I've never noticed any torque when you shoot. i was thinking that maybe the nocks don't fit right? I have no idea.....

Hey guy!...long time no hear   :)  
Hows the season progressing?...are there any deer left down there?!    :biglaugh:  

Thanks buddy for the offer but right now I am doing more looking than shooting.
I've still got 2 mambas left so it's not over yet   :nono:

QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
Could be he is twisting the bow when he draws, either right hand or left, will the throw the bow off track.  The only thing that would cause this, other than physical pressure, would be exposure to extreme temps.  I have bows that have been in use for 60 years and have only had one break and that was another person twisting on it.  This fellow needs a reverse handled Howard Hill Tembo or Big Five, with a straight grip, 64" to more than match his 26" draw, and pay close attention to getting the bow into the hand without torquing and make certain that the release fingers are equal pressure on the string during the straight back part of the draw with a split finger standard draw.  He says he is trying to use Hill form, it works best with a Hill bow.  i have been known to torque up a grip on recurves shooting Hill style to the point of lifting the arrow off the shelf.

Thank you

QuoteOriginally posted by Zradix:
Botech...

Is there a vent pretty close to where you keep your top limb tips in the rack?

Just grabbing straws here...maybe a chem room? cleaning solutions that may be venting. Or maybe pool chems...?

I run a humidistat on the furnace.
But...I am not in  that house anymore and do not have that control now.
Thats why I am going to check the present location today.
Thanks alot for keeping up with this thread...
You have really tried to help me figure this out all the way through these pages.
Thanks again   :)

Hey lads, I must strongly disagree with some of you here, regarding the daily unstringing of bows being a cause of limb failure. I always unstring my bows after each use, and haven't had a problem. Using a good stringer correctly, I do not believe that unstringing regularly can present a problem.

And further, with regard to humidity, we pretty much run in the nineties nearly all year 'round, again with no problems.

There may well be a scientific reason why your bows are dying, and I hope the puzzle gets solved.

However remote the probabilities, you may just be experiencing exceptionally poor luck.

I'd be interested to see how a Hill or Black Widow (or similar) would fare for you. Although not indestructable, they are quite tough.

Okay, I know I've posted way too much here on this thread, but please endure one more of my random thoughts: As I said, I live in a pretty hot and damp and humid part of the world; I am fairly liberal with the super glue bottle whenever I chance to give one of my beauties a gouge or major scratch. Guitars here are known to let go in the same way when scratched enough to allow the humidity into the lams.

Maybe you can find someone who can make you an Osage bow 66" to 68" in your weight range backed with bamboo or sinew.

The size of a piece of hedge that would be needed to build such a bow could be used as a pry pole for moving boulders.

I'm not saying it can't or won't break but if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the "sage"..lol

Good luck with your future bows.

God bless,Mudd

botech, my hat's off to you for the way you've handled all the suggestions on this thread and kept your cool. Good on you!

QuoteOriginally posted by Don Stokes:
botech, my hat's off to you for the way you've handled all the suggestions on this thread and kept your cool. Good on you!

I have to second Don on this one.

You have done yourself proud in your handling of this thread.

You're always welcome to share my campfire, just don't ask to borrow my bow....lol

God bless,Mudd

Good one Mudd!!   :laughing:    :laughing:    :laughing:

I just cant shoot metal risers, aint natural..

Pronghorn makes an all glass limb,Said to be fast and real nice to shoot.Do a search, a few threads have been posted just recently.

Krisken,

I know you have not had a lot on here to pinpoint exactly what the problem is but I hope you are able to find something that works for you. (before you poke your eye out   :eek:   )

No one can resist a mystery.  I hope no more bows blow up.

I'm no novice but in the last 25 years I've had 3 custom bows "blow" their top limb at the fadeout.  The first, a 60 inch recurve, was replaced as it was only a week old.  The second, a 62 inch recurve made by another bowyer from the same state broke in exactly the same place but only after thousands of shots. These two bows broke many years ago.  

My draw length is 29 inches, I shoot split finger and I've always used arrows in the 10 gpp range or heavier.  This past summer the third bow I had blow was a hybrid longbow 58 inches long and it too was a top limb at the fadeout that gave way.  By the way these bows all pulled about 55 to 60 pounds at my draw length.  I stored them unstrung, and in what would be considered a normal atmosphere for inside the home.

Although it wasn't 4 bows in 3 years it was enough to make me wonder if that was real unlucky or par for the course considering how much I shoot my bows.  

By the way not all bow stringers are alike either.  I always use a stringer that utilizes the limb tips to string the bow.  That type utilizes the entire working limb to string as opposed to those types that set a pad on the back of the limb which forces that limb to bend unevenly and in my opinion too much to string the bow.  I wouldn't use that kind of stringer.

wulf

Just a thought here, not sure if matters. Could preloading the limb tips/limbs from twisting the string too much resulting in "too long" of a brace height cause the limb tips and the fadeout be stressed?  I've lengthened my brace to quiet/stop vibration in recurve bows but have noticed there is a big difference in how the limb tips react after the shot.  On a short brace height, the limb tips move back and forth resulting in typically a louder/more felt vibration recurve bow.  This movement of the recurve tips after the shot seems to give the bow some give/cusion from the result of the bows energy being released.  On another extreme, a real long brace height results in the limb tips stopping their after shot movement immediately or very soon after the shot.  Could this abrupt stopping of limb tips/limb cause undue stress on the limbs/limbs laminations?  Not saying this is what is happening here but I'm with many others on this 8/9 page post that there is something causing these limbs to fail and it seems to me that they are all failing in the working area of the recurve limb/limb tip.  I shoot both recurves and longbows. The longbows vibrations and limb tip oscillations don't seem to be affected as much by changes in brace as do my recurves.

684Kevin with folks like you out there giving this problem some serious thinking there's hope that a solution to fix it might happen.

Thank you! and the same to all the other thinkers out there that can or have add(ed) something more constructive than what I've been able to contribute.

God bless,Mudd

I recently picked up a recurve made in England, A Marksan TS4. The bow was made in the early 70's and it literally is in brand new condition. The white glass is in amazing condition, not yellowing at all. When I first saw it I thought someone was remaking Hoyt recurves. So it proves to me, if the bow is made well, it will last.

I seem to remember talk of a large bad batch of epoxy a few years back.  I wonder if these bows are not a result of that?

G'day Botech
Got a note from Don, Don't know if I can help. Having broken many bows does not necessarily equate to being any wiser as to why, tho the experience does set u on a path of satisfaction in knowledge, as now one deems to have rectified the problem.
I appreciate u'r situation may appear exasperating as u want to definitively know why but there r probably always a combination of factors at work.  Murphy has a lot to answer.
I found the following to be true. None would intentionally steer u wrong and tho many have fine experiences with particular bows, so will obviously recommend them to u in the hope u may distinguish similar experience. It may not be the case in the heavyweight version.
Regardless of the best intentions of what others perceive shoulda, coulda, woulda and what works for them on the matter, does not make it so in anothers reality. On reflexion u are probably not doing anything much wrong and misuse is subjective. Yet again there are some base principles bought out already that obviously apply and u have made the logical reduction in checks. Here's that thread from when my breaks became intolerable. U might gleam some from it.
    http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=087740;p=3    

However I do not imagine u will find finer bows than the laminated wood n boo ones out there so perhaps in retrospect an time u may reconsider relinquishing sound trad values of a well tuned natural instrument of pursuit in the unsatisfying hope of better alternatives. I try only to raise some lateral awareness in hope.

It appears u are likewise hard on bows, so u might be relieved to know I can't kill the ones I use now having tried since, happily in vain. From that run of breaks I gleamed much from a couple PM's sent me from some willing wise with regards durable heavy weights and quality of craftsmanship and materials used. I have acquired a couple of proof recurves and was thankfully provided with a longbow proper and find preference now in these. A real learning curve and acquired delight in progress made more so as that gentleman has maintained some consideration in dragging me through despite some ignorance.
So too perhaps some bowyers are still learning and antithetical issues are compounded somewhat in heavy weights. Even though it's a series of lams an glass there are many factors that must be got just right in the process, everyone has an off day, mixed batch of resin etc.. U might be an unwitting recipient.

Have u tried a little longer bows? R all the faults with the top tips/fade always breaking down or top limb invariably?
I found a longer bow to be comparatively conducive to 70# weight. Then again @ 26"draw would ya reckon otherwise?
I did find that less than a 70# bow, for me at least, was a somewhat futile exercise within particular  feel & function processes and believe this may have been a criteria to failure in lesser ones but as to the heavier ones of good report I'm still a bit miffed and again I find difficulty in reconciling them. Indeed they were not on my end list of durables. A new set of limbs requires accessing for one broke bow, tho the limb length reckoned to be the problem, has been repeated in this remake!

How many shots are u putting through these limbs/session and is there a period of this when u fire in quick succession?
I still off 80+ odd shots/session approx average 4 days/wk and it may be the bows that broke did not like the quickness of succession that was sometimes applied in the latter stages of longer sessions. Energy = Heat etc. Is integrity loss compounded to existing condition?
How long are u holding u'r draw for?
A thought was, perhaps I sometimes held the draw too long, both as an exercise an discipline in fatigue after many shots, 150+, consequently this combined with the previous mentioned rapid shooting may have been an issue. Still my present bows remain unaffected by this activity but on advice I believe now the cast of the arrow may be altered, thus more consideration is given to smooth draw anchor and release.
Hysteresis = lag in effect, the delayed response by a object to the changes in the forces acting upon it. One can imagine how the fibers in the limbs under torsion might be affected by holding the draw longer, the instant springy recoil must be distorted some by holding fibers at stress longer. I had wondered about this but did not know there was a name for it.

I tried 3 under but also found this untenable in heavier weights and no use, for my part, on a longbow. Perhaps this is not so for u & others but It wasn't my cup a tea. The stress a fore mentioned by Don merits if it's the same break.
De-stringing & stringing may not cause any problems as care is taken with seating in the string grooves. I note from recent contributors, emphasis on proper stringer. In our high humidity I will not leave a bow strung if it is not being used within 7 days. Just a precaution.
Then of course **** happens sometimes.
The thoughts expressed here are my own imperfect opinion drawn from limited comparable experience than most, except perhaps in breaking bows and am happy to be corrected by views of wiser and voice of more experienced reason.
Along with everyone else an unlike the stones, I hope u get some satisfaction.

Thanks MUDD.  Sitting around house this weekend under the weather.  I have plenty of spare time to add my thoughts/two cents.  Also, plenty of time to browse through Trad Gang.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Kleinig:
Okay, I know I've posted way too much here on this thread, but please endure one more of my random thoughts: As I said, I live in a pretty hot and damp and humid part of the world; I am fairly liberal with the super glue bottle whenever I chance to give one of my beauties a gouge or major scratch. Guitars here are known to let go in the same way when scratched enough to allow the humidity into the lams.

Your suggestion on superglue made me think about the time I got a split on a mamba two years back and I used Goat Tuff.
That worked great!.
I had forgotten all about that   :rolleyes:  

Thanks for the reminder!.
Found a small split in one of the remaining mamba's a few days ago.
So far, it's just on the outside laminate but I'm gonna put the goat tough to it a.s.a.p.

Thanks for the reminder    :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by wulf:
I'm no novice but in the last 25 years I've had 3 custom bows "blow" their top limb at the fadeout.  The first, a 60 inch recurve, was replaced as it was only a week old.  The second, a 62 inch recurve made by another bowyer from the same state broke in exactly the same place but only after thousands of shots. These two bows broke many years ago.  

My draw length is 29 inches, I shoot split finger and I've always used arrows in the 10 gpp range or heavier.  This past summer the third bow I had blow was a hybrid longbow 58 inches long and it too was a top limb at the fadeout that gave way.  By the way these bows all pulled about 55 to 60 pounds at my draw length.  I stored them unstrung, and in what would be considered a normal atmosphere for inside the home.

Although it wasn't 4 bows in 3 years it was enough to make me wonder if that was real unlucky or par for the course considering how much I shoot my bows.  

By the way not all bow stringers are alike either.  I always use a stringer that utilizes the limb tips to string the bow.  That type utilizes the entire working limb to string as opposed to those types that set a pad on the back of the limb which forces that limb to bend unevenly and in my opinion too much to string the bow.  I wouldn't use that kind of stringer.

wulf

where you describe your splits is just as I would have described mine in the past.
Nice to know that I am not alone here.
However...
It would have been just as nice to not have had the experience at all.    

Looks like my interest in a solid glass limb 3 piece may be the best idea to date.

Unfortunately   :(

QuoteOriginally posted by 684Kevin:
Just a thought here, not sure if matters. Could preloading the limb tips/limbs from twisting the string too much resulting in "too long" of a brace height cause the limb tips and the fadeout be stressed?  I've lengthened my brace to quiet/stop vibration in recurve bows but have noticed there is a big difference in how the limb tips react after the shot.  On a short brace height, the limb tips move back and forth resulting in typically a louder/more felt vibration recurve bow.  This movement of the recurve tips after the shot seems to give the bow some give/cusion from the result of the bows energy being released.  On another extreme, a real long brace height results in the limb tips stopping their after shot movement immediately or very soon after the shot.  Could this abrupt stopping of limb tips/limb cause undue stress on the limbs/limbs laminations?  Not saying this is what is happening here but I'm with many others on this 8/9 page post that there is something causing these limbs to fail and it seems to me that they are all failing in the working area of the recurve limb/limb tip.  I shoot both recurves and longbows. The longbows vibrations and limb tip oscillations don't seem to be affected as much by changes in brace as do my recurves.

Thats a pretty good shot in the dark IMO .... but alas...I keep my bows pretty much at spec or darn close to it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Two Tracks:
Pronghorn makes an all glass limb,Said to be fast and real nice to shoot.Do a search, a few threads have been posted just recently.

Thanks for the heads up    :)

WOW!    :eek:  

This is a great (!!!)reply

  :banghead:  

By what you have said in your responce, I am even more likely to continue looking at a solid limb bow in the future.

Thank you VERY much      :archer2:    


 

QuoteOriginally posted by divecon10:
G'day Botech
Got a note from Don, Don't know if I can help. Having broken many bows does not necessarily equate to being any wiser as to why, tho the experience does set u on a path of satisfaction in knowledge, as now one deems to have rectified the problem.
I appreciate u'r situation may appear exasperating as u want to definitively know why but there r probably always a combination of factors at work.  Murphy has a lot to answer.
I found the following to be true. None would intentionally steer u wrong and tho many have fine experiences with particular bows, so will obviously recommend them to u in the hope u may distinguish similar experience. It may not be the case in the heavyweight version.
Regardless of the best intentions of what others perceive shoulda, coulda, woulda and what works for them on the matter, does not make it so in anothers reality. On reflexion u are probably not doing anything much wrong and misuse is subjective. Yet again there are some base principles bought out already that obviously apply and u have made the logical reduction in checks. Here's that thread from when my breaks became intolerable. U might gleam some from it.
      http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=087740;p=3      

However I do not imagine u will find finer bows than the laminated wood n boo ones out there so perhaps in retrospect an time u may reconsider relinquishing sound trad values of a well tuned natural instrument of pursuit in the unsatisfying hope of better alternatives. I try only to raise some lateral awareness in hope.

It appears u are likewise hard on bows, so u might be relieved to know I can't kill the ones I use now having tried since, happily in vain. From that run of breaks I gleamed much from a couple PM's sent me from some willing wise with regards durable heavy weights and quality of craftsmanship and materials used. I have acquired a couple of proof recurves and was thankfully provided with a longbow proper and find preference now in these. A real learning curve and acquired delight in progress made more so as that gentleman has maintained some consideration in dragging me through despite some ignorance.
So too perhaps some bowyers are still learning and antithetical issues are compounded somewhat in heavy weights. Even though it's a series of lams an glass there are many factors that must be got just right in the process, everyone has an off day, mixed batch of resin etc.. U might be an unwitting recipient.

Have u tried a little longer bows? R all the faults with the top tips/fade always breaking down or top limb invariably?
I found a longer bow to be comparatively conducive to 70# weight. Then again @ 26"draw would ya reckon otherwise?
I did find that less than a 70# bow, for me at least, was a somewhat futile exercise within particular  feel & function processes and believe this may have been a criteria to failure in lesser ones but as to the heavier ones of good report I'm still a bit miffed and again I find difficulty in reconciling them. Indeed they were not on my end list of durables. A new set of limbs requires accessing for one broke bow, tho the limb length reckoned to be the problem, has been repeated in this remake!

How many shots are u putting through these limbs/session and is there a period of this when u fire in quick succession?
I still off 80+ odd shots/session approx average 4 days/wk and it may be the bows that broke did not like the quickness of succession that was sometimes applied in the latter stages of longer sessions. Energy = Heat etc. Is integrity loss compounded to existing condition?
How long are u holding u'r draw for?
A thought was, perhaps I sometimes held the draw too long, both as an exercise an discipline in fatigue after many shots, 150+, consequently this combined with the previous mentioned rapid shooting may have been an issue. Still my present bows remain unaffected by this activity but on advice I believe now the cast of the arrow may be altered, thus more consideration is given to smooth draw anchor and release.
Hysteresis = lag in effect, the delayed response by a object to the changes in the forces acting upon it. One can imagine how the fibers in the limbs under torsion might be affected by holding the draw longer, the instant springy recoil must be distorted some by holding fibers at stress longer. I had wondered about this but did not know there was a name for it.

I tried 3 under but also found this untenable in heavier weights and no use, for my part, on a longbow. Perhaps this is not so for u & others but It wasn't my cup a tea. The stress a fore mentioned by Don merits if it's the same break.
De-stringing & stringing may not cause any problems as care is taken with seating in the string grooves. I note from recent contributors, emphasis on proper stringer. In our high humidity I will not leave a bow strung if it is not being used within 7 days. Just a precaution.
Then of course **** happens sometimes.
The thoughts expressed here are my own imperfect opinion drawn from limited comparable experience than most, except perhaps in breaking bows and am happy to be corrected by views of wiser and voice of more experienced reason.
Along with everyone else an unlike the stones, I hope u get some satisfaction.

"unlike the stones, I hope u get some satisfaction." That one took me a minute...   :)