We travel a lot and my wife has become annoyed with 1 piece bows that I can't ever seem to leave home. I informed her that they do have some bows that would solve the hassle of long bows in the vehicles...ILF. I do have some questions about them that I haven't been able to find in my searches.
Do the risers have any weight limitations (looking up to #90 or maybe #100 if I ever get to Africa)?
Lots of bowyers are making machined risers, are there really any performance differences between the different brands? I would really interested if anyone has tried the same limbs on different risers to really compare them.
Whose risers do you like shooting the best?
Thanks and hopefully this will make my wife happier ;)
I have had several, go with the Tradtech Titan from lancaster archery.com. Tough, easy to shoot and tune with their Black Max limbs especially the carbon limbs. The 17" riser is compact, so it and limbs can go in a suprisingly small package. You cant hurt this riser, period! You can often find them used for around $300, with a plunger button and rest in my case. Pm me back if I can be of any more help. Sam.
Hello,I've been shooting several differnt ILF set up's lately.I am a confirmed Morrison fan.His stuff is a little pricey.But you defenatly get what you pay for with Bob.I have found that it seems to me that ILF is sensitive to you'r draw length.Meaning the length of the riser limb comination you pick can be a little critical.
I have a 28" draw and about any combo that comes out to 62" feels pretty good to me.And i like the 19" and 17" risers suit me the best.I've had three metal risers.They arent my thing.No real disadvantages to them just not the same as wood.If you are going to shoot of a elevated rest the metal riser's are the way to go.
As far as 90# to 100# limbs you may have trouble finding those.About the high end of weight i've seen in ILF limbs is 60# to 70#'s.You could probably find someone to build what you want.Alot of the difference in performance of different riser's is going to be in the limb pocket angle.Morrison builds his risers to be plus 10#.Dryad builds his to plus 15#.This means with a set of standard limbs that are marked on the standard 25" riser will gain 10#.On a Morrison riser and 15# on a dryad riser.A example would be limba marked 40# on a 25" riser will be 50# on a plus ten riser.I hope this didnt confuse you.You may want to give some of the bowyers a call and see what they think.Bobs a real good guy to talk to.As is Mike from dryad.
Thanks guys. They are a little more complicated than I thought. I guess I may have to contact individual bowyers to find out the risers poundage limits.
So is a certain limb pocket more advantageous than another?
The limb pockets are all the same so they accept any ILF limb being made. The angle that the limb attaches to the bow is what makes the weight of pull different even if using the same limb swapped from one bow to the other. Morrison Archery would be a good place to start. Dryad builds their own limb which is very nice and a high performer. They may be able to build you a stronger limb. Both are sponsors here, so you can find the contact information in the contact list.
I second what Koger said. The TradTech Titan riser is very good. I've owned the DAS and Morrison wood risers...they are nice but the Titan has them beat in function and price.
I've not shot a Morrison metal riser but, they look good and are also reasonably priced.
For the weights you are talking about go with a metal riser for strength. Both the DAS and Morrisons are very good and offer multiple length.
As far as limbs, you will need to get custom built. We are currently doing a pair of 80# curve limbs for a customer going to OZ for buffalo.
Mike
For ILF bows the best shooting will have the best limbs. It is that simple. For the weights that you are planning on shooting you will need to get custom lmbs...Morrison, Border, Dryad, Sky could probably all make you what you want. Do our research on limbs and get the best you can afford.
If I'm not mistaken, TradTech was the first to bring a short hunting riser with the ILF connection to market with the Titan. Since then, they have introduced a number of other risers both shorter and longer. There have been a number of others since then like SKY, Morrison, Dryad, 3 Rivers and Hoyt, all good choices. Limbs are available from at least a dozen different makers, both custom and production.
To add to what Ray Lyon said, in addition to limb angle, riser length also dictates what weight a given set of limbs may actually be. For example, a set of limbs that are 50 lbs on a 17" riser might be 52 lbs on a 15" riser, 48 lbs on a 19" riser, 46 lbs on a 21" riser, 44lbs on a 23" riser, etc.
In addition to that, each riser-limb combination will also have about 10% of weight adjustment. For example a combo that is 50lbs at the middle preload setting, might be 47 or 48 lbs on the lightest setting and 52 or 53 lbs on the heaviest setting.
Like Koger said, Lancaster is a good resource because they have a number of risers in stock from different makers and materials and a number of different limbs in every price range that they can mix and match to your exact specs.
It sounds complicated but it really isn't. Most people just find a combo they like, set it for how they shoot, and forget it.
For non Safari application, TradTech Titan and Black Max Carbon limbs.
For the heavy limbs, those will have to be custom built, check with Dryad or Morrison or Border for those.
You would be better served going with a conventional takedown for the 90-100 limbs. The ILF risers won't be rated for that much weight, even the metal ones. David set a limit of 70# or so on his Dalaa risers I believe.
With the synthetic limb pad I doubt the Dalaa could take that kind of weight. The Morrison, Sky, and Titan metal risers could probably take it, but I doubt you'll get them to say so :^) Sky, Border, Dryad and Morrison would probably build a heavy set of limbs too, but again... I doubt they'd offer any warranty. Don't know any of that for sure, but it would be interesting to find out.
For the real heavy bows you want to take on Safari, I would listen to what Vermonster stated. While ILF bows are generally awesome bows, they have problems with heavier weights than 60# or so. Based on my new HEX 5 Border limbs for my DAS bow, I would defiinately give serious consideration to getting a heavy weight Border take down with HEX 5 limbs.
Mike "wingnut" with Dryad Bows is a great guy. I just got off the phone with him and he was a lot of help. He even recommended looking at some other bowyers and other options. He's a stand up business man that isn't only interested in a sale. :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
You would be better served going with a conventional takedown for the 90-100 limbs. The ILF risers won't be rated for that much weight, even the metal ones.
Would you mind elaborating on that a little bit? I would think that a solid alloy riser would be much more stable than one made of natural materials with the inherent inconsistencies of graining, glue joints, etc.
The stresses on the limb bolt would be the same, so wouldn't the strength depend on how the bolt connects to the riser? (threaded directly into solid metal, or yet another glue joint in a natural material).
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
I talked to Bob Morrison today and he told me that his riser would have no trouble with the weight. He said the limb should be thicker where it bolts on and that it might be necessary to get longer bolts to accomodate the thicker limbs. But other than that, there wouldn't be any problem. Bob was very knowledgeable and helpful. We have some very good bowyers to help us.
Mike had said the extra heavy limbs will have a surcharge because it is harder to hit the weights that will be ordered and will very likely take more time and possibly multiple attempts.
QuoteOriginally posted by oxnam:
I talked to Bob Morrison today and he told me that his riser would have no trouble with the weight.
I figured as much oxnam. Was he referring to his metal risers, laminated risers, or both?
We were discussing the machined aluminum risers. I didn't think to ask about the wood risers, I wish I had now.
QuoteOriginally posted by Turkeys Fear Me:
QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
You would be better served going with a conventional takedown for the 90-100 limbs. The ILF risers won't be rated for that much weight, even the metal ones.
Would you mind elaborating on that a little bit? I would think that a solid alloy riser would be much more stable than one made of natural materials with the inherent inconsistencies of graining, glue joints, etc.
The stresses on the limb bolt would be the same, so wouldn't the strength depend on how the bolt connects to the riser? (threaded directly into solid metal, or yet another glue joint in a natural material).
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this. [/b]
It is a function of the limb pockets and bolts. Bob will most likely need to modify the connection as he told oxam for the ILF system to handle the stress of the weight which also means the limbs will need wider slots so you won't be able to use limbs other than ones made specifically for this riser unless they are also modified which kind of defeats the main attraction of an ILF bow, being able to switch among limbs of different manufacture.
Couldn't the angle of the pocket be modified so he wouldn't have to go and change the width of the limb, also the length of the riser can also determine the weight gain right ?
Personally I'd rather go with three piece bow and a phenolic riser.
Bob (apparently) said thicker (beefed up)limbs and longer bolts--nothing about being wider. I see no reason why they wouldn't fit on any other riser "if" the limb bolts were longer.
Glad Bob is willing to accommodate the heavy-weight guys.
Curious... do you guys really think any wood, or phenolic riser would be stronger and handle more stress than a CNC machined 6065 alloy riser?
The pocket will not have to be modified. The limb wedge will need to be thicker where the bolt goes thought the limb, built up with carbon or fiberglass to take the extra stress.
Your going to use the same thickness bolt and standard ILF fittings Bob?
QuoteOriginally posted by Jim Casto Jr:
Curious... do you guys really think any wood, or phenolic riser would be stronger and handle more stress than a CNC machined 6065 alloy riser?
No, that's why I asked what I did. It makes sense that the limb would be thicker and need a longer (not wider) limb bolt in order to have the proper amount of thread contact, but that is no different than a traditional takedown. If the limb butt is thicker, the bolt would need to be longer. That however, is a function of the limb and has nothing to do with the riser or the ILF connection.
Hi Bob,
Good you're looking in. So.... what's your thoughts on the strength comparison of ILF metal riser vs wood riser with bolt-down limbs?
Metal at 90+ #, Wood might??? work, Phenolic better than wood, Probably will work??? If I where hunting something that needs 90+ I would be shooting a Metal riser and Maple core limbs,and depending on your draw Carbon or fiberglass.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Carlsen:
While ILF bows are generally awesome bows, they have problems with heavier weights than 60# or so.
What problems would you run into?
QuoteOriginally posted by Bowbldr:
Metal at 90+ #, Wood might??? work, Phenolic better than wood, Probably will work??? If I where hunting something that needs 90+ I would be shooting a Metal riser and Maple core limbs,and depending on your draw Carbon or fiberglass.
Thanks Bowbldr, that's what I would have thought.
I would not hesitate to team up a heavy set of limbs with one of Bob's metal risers. It would be a great combo that is strong and accurate too shoot.
Mike
Hey Mike and Bob, if you guys want to put together a heavy weight to prove the point (not that you have any doubts), I'll gladly test it for you ;)
TTT for clarification on the following:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Carlsen:
While ILF bows are generally awesome bows, they have problems with heavier weights than 60# or so.
What "problems" are you referring to?
I'm not trying to talk for Bill but I think he was referring to the heavy limbs? They are not in the main stream of ILF shooters. You will not find them very often or maybe not at all from Korean,China etc. over 60#. They will more than likely need to be custom built or recut to fit the ILF riser.
Bob's ILF fittings and bushings are stainless steel so would hold up to the heavier weights much better than what is used by most main-stream ILF manufacturers which mainly use aluminum fittings and bushings.
I thought the fitting was simply for alignment and all the pressure was on the bolt and rocker.
Your right Jim. Our fitting is aluminum, the only pressure on it is sideways, and it is minimal. Pressure is downward on the riser. The fitting pretty much just lines up the limb until it is strung.
Thanks Bowbldr and Jim. I was under the impression the ILF fitting was primarily for alignment also, just like the pin in a normal takedown.
There seems to be quite a bit of confusion and old wives tales out there when it comes to this subject.
So would you say that the stress to the riser is really no different than that of any other takedown?
As I see it, the only difference is limb pressure pushing the bolt when strung. instead of the bolt holding limb down on the riser. No effect on riser either way.
I've had an ILF bushing from a major manufacturer fail on a Belcher ILF. Think you may want to use a higher grade limb bolt also and limit your adjustment range with the thicker limb bolt. Bolt strength is related to width as well as depth.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bowbldr:
As I see it, the only difference is limb pressure pushing the bolt when strung. instead of the bolt holding limb down on the riser. No effect on riser either way.
That's kind of what I thought, thanks. Like I said before, I think there are a TON of misconceptions flying around about the ILF connection.
So are you back in the metal riser business again? I know you said before that you were blowing them out and sticking with wood.
As was said by Bob most of the force is on the limb bolt. Thus it is basically the weakest link in the design.
I don't know if any of you come from a machining background as I do. One of the things you learn is that all threads have a "Maximum Strength Depth". This is the how deep into a thread a bolt has to go to reach its maximum holding strength. Most nuts are usually very near or at the maximum strength depth. Kinda surprising considering how small they look.
This is so because a threads strength is based on the stretch of the bolt or tensile strength. So that being said it's figured that if a thread will pull out of a nut that is 1/2 deep for its maximum strength depth it will pull out of one that is 1 inch deep. I'm not sure how much I believe this since it contacts twice the surface area, but I don't argue with the manual.
That being said the strength of a bolt lies in its diameter and its thread size.
It might surprise you just how strong some bolt are when being pulled. Working as a machinist, working on cars and other mechanical objects most my life, and now being a helicopter mechanic I have seen a lot more bolts sheared than I have broken in any other way.
Also when I saw all that connects a 2,000 HP turbine engine to an input module is a few (3-6 depending on model) approximately 6mm bolts and a flex pack, and they fly without being replaced for hundreds of hours, it makes you a believer in high grade bolts.
Sorry for the length but it kinda seemed relivant
There was much more interest once a few guys got hold of our riser. So why not? They are built for me by a company that work with metal and are equipped better that I to make stuff out of metal. It is my design and with things I feel is important to a riser. The 2 generation has more improvements over Gen1 mostly, cosmetic. Changed the angle on the 17" and 19". Gen 3 will be along way off, I don't know of anything else I would change at this point. Wood is still our main seller, A warmth you can't get from metal.
QuoteOriginally posted by Blake Dustin Adams:
It might surprise you just how strong some bolt are when being pulled. Working as a machinist, working on cars and other mechanical objects most my life, and now being a helicopter mechanic I have seen a lot more bolts sheared than I have broken in any other way.
Also when I saw all that connects a 2,000 HP turbine engine to an input module is a few (3-6 depending on model) approximately 6mm bolts and a flex pack, and they fly without being replaced for hundreds of hours, it makes you a believer in high grade bolts.
Seeing that there really isn't any lateral stress on the limb bolt, any talk of failure, as long as you have the proper strength depth, is kind of overblown it seems.
The ILF bolt does have some lateral stress to them, the farther a bolt is backed out the more stress on that bolt. I have not seen it happen yet but it could be possible to bend the bolt, I don't think you could ever break it.
I've not been to Africa, nor hunted anything biggger than elk, however I'm wondering about the need for a 90 to 100 pound bow for even the biggest game in Africa???? Howard Hill and Bob Swinehart were tackling elephants with 100 pound bows that were not using the same materials nor quality of design of todays bowyers. I'm speculating a little here, but thinking along the lines of a set of Dryad Epic static limbs at 80 lbs. with fast flight string and weighted skinny carbon arrow (1,000 grain plus)with Grizzly 160 broadhead would be no less potent than what was used back in the fifties and sixties by Hill, Bear and Swinehart.
oops, I meant to add extreme FOC to my parameters
I dont think thier would be any problem with that setup for Africa and Cape buffalo or lion.As long as your arrows are flying true and properly reinforced at the business end for dangerous game it would be a wicked setup.Probably step up the broadhead to a heavier Abowyer,Ashby 300 gr. or grizzly 190 grain or maybe a steelforce African head.Those are some thick heads with tonto style tips.
I think Hill killed one of his elephants with around a 125# bow?Might have been his 1st one with a very long arrow from what I remember.
QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
You would be better served going with a conventional takedown for the 90-100 limbs. The ILF risers won't be rated for that much weight, even the metal ones. David set a limit of 70# or so on his Dalaa risers I believe.
I've been thinking a lot about this statement over the last couple days, wondering why DAS might have set a weight limit on his riser and I think I may have figured it out.
If you look at the way the Dalaa is desgned, because of the position of the thumbscrew, the area of the limb pad that is under the most stress (under the limb rocker) is extended past the beefy part of the riser. There is no reinforcement under that area so the thinner limb pad (with a hole in it for the thumb screw) takes all the stress.
(http://www.bowreports.com/recurve-bows/daala/dalaa-pics/images/thumbs/thumb11.jpg)
On the other hand, notice that the ILF connection is integrated into the riser so the stress is carried on the beefy part of the riser, not on a pad that is "cantilevered" beyond the beefy part of the riser.
(http://www.morrisonarchery.com/New-2010-ILF-Mini-1525.jpg)
(http://www.traditionalarcheryusa.com/images/products/detail/TradtechTitanAPGCamo17InchILFRiser.1.gif)
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSsBsQD5eGQEvXaNnWKM_Urcowx_1QFN7NtwifsS88CqFA1OC4exQ)
It's understandable (at least to me) why there would be weight restrictions on one design, and not so on the others.
Make any sense?
Even if you look at the ILF target risers, the always seems to be reinforcement under the rocker.
Hoyt
(http://www.toxicrabbit.com/archery/images/avalon.jpg)
Samick
(http://www.perrisarchery.co.uk/Samick_Vision_and_Carbon_Limbs.JPG)
Bernardini
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:-XUmdtFq7Ivj4M:http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5894/bernardinirisers.jpg&t=1)
In heavy weight limbs, most of the pressure is on the main limb bolt. The limb acting like a pry bar. A steel insert and 5/16" bolt with 1/2" threads will hold just fine. taped in to wood and its going to need to be much longer. This is the reason most bowyer will use larger steel inserts, we use 1/2" od x 1" and a courser thread stainless insert on our wood riser. Our metal is less than 1/2" because it is in aluminum, but still has a stainless insert (stronger than the aluminum) to make it so we can adjust poundage or tiller with bow strung and not glaud and lock the bolt to where you can not remove it.
Thanks for this post, it has been very useful and informative.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bowbldr:
In heavy weight limbs, most of the pressure is on the main limb bolt. The limb acting like a pry bar.
True. However with the limb acting as a "pry bar," the limb bolt holds one end of the lever (pry bar) down, exerting more pressure on the fulcrum which is directly under the rocker of the limb. In the case of the thumb bolt system, this would be the weakest point.
Think of it in terms of a claw hammer pulling out a nail. The nail is the limb bolt, the round part of the claw is the limb rocker and the hammer handle is the limb tip. The board that the nail is in is of course the limb pad.
If the nail pulls out easily, the round part of the claw doesnt put much pressure on the wood. If however the nail is stuck (like the limb bolt), the harder you pull on the hammer handle (as in heavier weight limbs) the more damage the hammer does to the wood.
So, with the limb pad unsupported under the rocker, (cantilever) if anything is going to give, it's going to be that pad, especially if there is a hole through that section.
Make any sense?
I'm not saying that it will ever be an issue with normal weight limbs, I'm just speculating as to why DAS would have put weight limits on his riser. This would be the only logical reason in my mind.
In an ILF limb the rocker area is the thickest part of the wedge taking care of that problem in the limb. and I doubt that the plate in the das is going to bent either, at worst that is all that could happen it would bend and not break. I would be more concerned in the bolt pull out of the riser or the end of the limb around the bolt letting loose and breaking. This is not a problem in lower pounds 70-. heavy will need to be thicker in the bolt area, and the bolt may need beefed up may grade 8. and as long as possible in aluminum thread holes.
You are probably right Bowbldr, I don't happen to think it would be an issue either. I was just trying to speculate as to why, as vermoster13 said, DAS would put a weight limit on his system, and that is the only thing I could think of.
You have to think about something when you're in a treestand...
Makes for an interesting discussion though.
I came up with most of my bow design sitting in treestands.