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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Ralphie on December 07, 2010, 01:13:00 AM
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I will soon be shooting a used HH bow which is able to shoot FF strings. The story I have been told is that using FF strings on a Hill bow will shorten the life of the bow. Others Hill shooters have said that is a myth.
I was just hoping to hear some of the opinions of Hill shooters.
Which is best, ..... and why
thanks
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I've always used B50 and now use B55 and I don't see a reason to change. Hill bows are not speed demons, just hard hitting bows, so I don't see the need for a stiffer string. I like a bow that delivers a quiet arrow where I'm looking, I don't care how fast it gets there. As far as durability, I've never had a string break, so again I don't see the advantage.
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there is no such thing as a general "best" string material for any given bow. ditto's for a "best bow" or "best arrow" or "best broadhead". see where this is going? :D
there are essentially two types of "modern" bowstring fibers, polyester ("dacron" - b50, b500, b55, etc) and low stretch/low creep hmpe ("high modulus polyethylene" - dyneema, spectra, vectran - fast flight, d97, 450, etc).
almost all modern laminated stickbows are designed to safely handle hmpe bowstring fibers, which includes howard hill archery longbows.
the bottom line is that *you* need to try out different string fiber types and choose what appears to work best for you.
my opinion - i only use hmpe bowstring fibers as they allow using less strands (polyester/dacron will not allow this), for a better feeling release/shot. there are some who find less strand counts contributes to a quieter bow on release, and faster arrow speeds.
again - howard hill bows can safely use any modern bow string fiber, and it's up to you to decide what will work best for ... you.
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What Rob said!
I use both ... I have spools and spools of B 50b so it gets a fair workout . When using it I can often forego silencers as it remains whisper quiet. Using newer low stretch material I often find the shot has a "crisp " punchier feel to it . Its all good !
It really is a personal preference...
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I guess I was more paying attention to the "advice" I was given;
that hmpe strings on a Hill bow will shorten the life of the bow. That they could be shot, but were "not recommended".
I use FF D-97 on a Wes Wallace, and like it. If FF can be used on a Hill without "shortening the bow's life", I think I would use FF.
thanks
And yes, .... 100%
Trying for myself is the only way to decide.
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I shoot a padded loop 8125 on my HH Half Breed and arrows of 9-11 gpp.Dacron on a Hill can increase handshock,probably where Hill's got the reputation of having alot of handshock.Didn't Howard Hill use a linen string material,that was low stretch like todays FF type strings.When I shot B50 on my Hill's I liked to spin up an endless string with no silencers,just the bare string.Handshock was minimal,but with a padded loop 8125 and whoolie wisps I don't even hardly notice any handshock.And it is quieter then the B50.The only bows I'll shoot B50 on is couple of older recurves,but all my longbows I use a low stretch string on.
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B-50 or B-55 for me.......it just works!
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That "myth" comes from Craig Eakin himself, who builds the bows and should know. He says they will shorten the life of the bow, but since a bow can last several generations, what does that really mean?
Lotsa folks use the new materials on Hill bows, Try it and see if you like it better than B50 for yourself.
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D-97 on mine and I will never go back to B50...there is no advantage to it that I have seen, but that's just me. Try em and see which you like best, it's not going to hurt the bow.
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Originally posted by London:
Originally posted by LongStick64:
I've always used B50 and now use B55 and I don't see a reason to change. Hill bows are not speed demons, just hard hitting bows, so I don't see the need for a stiffer string. I like a bow that delivers a quiet arrow where I'm looking, I don't care how fast it gets there. As far as durability, I've never had a string break, so again I don't see the advantage.
Hill style bows are not fast so they cannot be "hard hitting" bows. This constant refrain about standard longbows has always annoyed me. It matters no what kind of bow launches the arrow. If it's a slow arrow, it's a slow arrow. Shoot that same arrow out of a faster bow and it's "harder hitting". Hill bows are more accurately described as "soft hitting".
Nothing personal, I own several Hill bows. I also own a chronograph. [/b]
So by your logic a .45acp can't be a hard hitting round because it's slower than a 9mm? Hard hitting has more components than just speed. I suspect many of us Hill shooters also enjoy shooting heavier arrows for a number of reasons. Heavy arrows can (aren't necessarily but can) be harder hitting than fast ones.
Doesn't really matter - it's about pushing a sharp bit of steel (or rock) through stuff that bleeds.
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The bow that's due to arrive is the Cheetah 43#@28 66".
I CANNOT wait !
and ....
I really appreciate the diverse & informative replies.
It has relaxed me about using, rather trying a FF string.
ralphie
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Ok so I can see how hard hitting and speed can be related but how about "quietly effective" with heavy arrows.
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D97 on my Big Five. I think the bow feels better on the shot with low/no stretch strings.
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Your 43@28 with FF will be nearly equal, performance wise, to 48@28 with B-50.
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Ralphie, maybe the ? should be, who has wore out a Hill with HP string material?
A Hill bow is not built with much reflex or pre-stress to begin with!
As Al Dean says above, it's a performance thing. Like putting a good set of tires on the ole truck, it will handle awhole lot better!
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All I have ever read about different strings has said FF or modern strings give about 2-3 FPS more speed than B-50. If you can tell the difference your a better judge of such things than I !!!
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Doesn't mass of the arrow have a lot to do with hard hitting and don't some bows perform better with heavier arrows than others. Are these traditional myths of just false impressions.
From my limited experience my 75@28 Howard Hill Half Breed "seems" to bury my heavier shafts a lot deeper into any target I shoot into, and I know I'm not shooting at any blistering speed.
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Back to the question. I have a 53 at 26" Hill Redman model from a Hill blank and tillered to match my Schulz on my tiller board. I put a padded fast flight on it and found that it shoots about the same as an equal poundage recurve with an endless Dacron string. With the fast flight it requires a 5 pounds stiffer cedar and it will nicely shoot 1918 eastons cut to 27". This particular bow has very little hand shock to begin with, so with the fast flight there is less than with the recurve with the dacron. My Schulz bows and my Robertsons are a bit quicker, but not that much, than my bows from Hill blanks. I have seen some Hills that were harsh and others that were not, but a padded fast flight makes them all softer in the hand. I have heard of string grove damage on them from fast flights, but I have never heard of one blowing up with the fast flights. Equal strand tension and generous padding I think is the secret for not harming them with a fast flight string. I would think that a good heavy set of arrows and generous silencers on the string would also soften the blow to the bow. They do have a nice way of making the harsher Hills shoot with less shock for sure. Forget about all the dissing crap on this thread and enjoy your bow. Who do you all think makes the best padded fast flights?
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Wasn't there a concern about FF strings and horn limb tips.
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it don't matter what launches the arrow. heavier arras will penetrate more than lighter ones, with all given the same driving force. pure physics.
hill bows that are braced with hmpe fiber strings ("fast flight") will very typically have a "performance edge" over those hills that are strung with dacron. the difference is typically quite noticeable in terms of added release stability, lesser hand shock, lower noise and more arra speed.
as long as the stickbow limb tips (and limbs and riser) are overbuilt to handle the stresses of low stretch/creep bowstrings, there are no concerns. all current howard hill longbows are easily capable of being shot with hmpe bowstrings and will last for more than a few lifetimes under normal use.
i've had a gaggle of hill longbows, all performed notably and easily perceived better in every respect when i used hmpe bowstrings.
ymmv. ;)
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"hard hitting" and "light hitting"-
This requires 3 things: potential energy, kinectic energy, and momentum.
Potential energy: PE=mhg (mass*height*gravity) Potential energy is the POTENTIAL that something has to create kinectic energy or do work(work is a whole different aspect)This is measured in Newtons.
Kinectic Energy: KE=1/2vm2 (one half velocity* mass to the second power or squared) This is the energy of the arrow as it FLIES THROUGH THE AIR, not when it hits the target.
Momentum: p=mv (mass* velocity) Now this is the mass (arrow) pushing through the object.
Momentum and Kinectic Energy are often confused BUT its all about momentum.. There is a happy medium where a slow heavy arrow will have the same momentum as a fast light arrow (the decrease in mass is aided by an increase in velocity in the light arrow and for the heavy arrow the decrease in velocity is aided by the increase in mass) So with that if you can take a bow and make it shoot the same arrow faster then you will penetrate further due to more momentum..
Now to some bowhunters (including myself) its all about having the quietest bow. Which makes a great difference.
But to answer your question I have no idea about to life of a Hill bow due to FF.. I shoot a B-50 flemish twist just because its what came on the bow and it works how I want it to.
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That "myth" comes from Craig Eakin himself, who builds the bows and should know.
I've never talked to Mr. Eakin about strings, but if I did the first question I'd ask is "how did you come to this conclusion?"
I say this due to the warranties I've read from two well known bowyers. One bowyer voids his warranty if you use a flemish string or a string made from dacron. That's not a typo--the warranty is void if you use a dacron string! I tried to find contact information for this one, with no luck.
Another states in their warranty that "flemish strings are less accurate, and can be dangerous...". I did e-mail this bowyer, and asked what he based that on. No reply.
That being said, the bowyer is the one who makes the warranty so if you want him to honor it, you have to follow their stipulations.
Mr. Eakin may have a reason for stating that FF type materials will shorten the life of his bows. If he does, I wish someone would post it. I've talked to lots of bowyers, and I've yet to be shown evidence of HMPE materials damaging a properly made bow. All three of my selfbows do just fine with Dynaflight '97 or Formula 8125.
Chad
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Chad , I'm pretty sure that Craig uses low stretch material himself on his bows and I know that he sells them . Perhaps he is just covering himself with the older school thinking re Fast Flight etc .
I don't think there is any warranty issues with high performance strings with the Ekins . Pretty sure that the bow is covered regardless of string choice [aside from extreme's...]
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If I wasn't so lazy, I'd get off my backside and call him to ask about the FF / warranty debate. If I think about it tonight (and if someone hasn't beat me to it) I'll do that.
I like my B-50 on mine - it looks cool - but options are nice.
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Get one of each. Then after shooting each string on a practice round all you'll have to do is find someone to give the B-50 string to.
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From all that has been said, I am thinking that FF material can be used, but using it will take a toll.
A similar circumstance would be to work a car engine hard. The life of the engine will not last as long as one that is not wound out. FF might "wind out" a Hill, tire it out, shorten it's life.
quien sabe ? (who knows ).
I think when the bow gets here I am going to use the B-50 string that the previous owner used.
Although I would like to try the Silent But Deadly (SBD), Ultra FF, string.
What an overwhelming hobby archery is !
r
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As long as the tips are made properly, I can't see where a HMPE string is "hard" on a bow. Here's why:
HMPE strings reduce hand shock in practically all bows--some, like a straight or mild reflex limb, get the shock reduced a LOT.
Shock comes from wasted energy resonating down the limbs to the grip. Seems to me that all that extra vibration would cause more harm than less vibration? I'm not a bowyer though, that's just a thought.
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just use a heavy arrow
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Hey its your choice! B-50 quieter and softer shot, last forever- or FF type strings and gain a few fps and always wonder if ??
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I'm with Hatrick on this one. After trying DF97 a number of years ago, I've never used B-50 on anything since. In fact if the bow required B-50 I wouldn't get it. I use DF97 on all my Hill bows and also on a '92 vintage Pacific Yew that was built without additional limb tip overlays. I asked Jay about using DF97 and he said to go ahead. However, I decided to add horn overlays to it, partly for looks, but also for the additional strength on the tips. I've put alot of arrows through both my Hill Tembo and the St. Charles (they are my favorite bows) and I love the way they shoot with 8 strand DF97 strings. I've yet to see a down-side with my setup. I originally tried the DF97 because of its toughness and resistance to abrasion - not for additional speed. B-50 always frayed too much at the nock loops for my liking.
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HMPE materials (Dynaflight, Formula 8125, 450+, etc.) may be a tad faster (lots of variables to consider), but that's NOT why I use it.
I prefer HMPE materials because they have a lot less stretch, a lot less creep, and are much more durable (in moderate size strings--I don't use less than 10 strands). I have no problem getting them very quiet (a little tuning goes a long way), and they make some bows shootable for me that otherwise would sit on a rack if I owned them at all by reducing the hand shock.
I don't know of anyone that uses them just to pick up a couple fps. Personally, I'd use them if they were a little slower than dacron--they offer many more benefits than speed.
I've yet to see a bow that was properly made be damaged by a HMPE string. I've seen several bows fail with dacron strings on them (I don't blame the string). I only know of two (by the same bowyer) that failed with an HMPE string on them, and neither failure (one had a severe limb twist, the other delaminated the first time it was pulled to full draw) had anything to do with the string.
Point being, bows can and do fail, but rarely is it due to the string. The string just gets the blame if it's an HMPE string on the bow when it blows. If the bow has a dacron string when it fails, something else gets blamed.
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Originally posted by Ralphie:
From all that has been said, I am thinking that FF material can be used, but using it will take a toll....
absolute nonsense.
hmpe string fibers will not harm any howard hill archery longbow, nor will the bow have a "shortened lifespan".
i strongly suspect that craig knows that, too. i have no idea why he specifies using dacron, nor do i care. i've been spinning and twisting bowstrings since the mid 50's and aside from kevlar, all the polyethylene string fibers have been a boon to archery and not at all a detriment to modern bows, or archers.
in summation ... hmpe bowstings offer better functionality and performance over polyester bowstrings. all modern stickbows are more than capable of handling hmpe bowstrings.
and no, ymmNOTv! :D
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Originally posted by LBR:
... I don't know of anyone that uses them just to pick up a couple fps. Personally, I'd use them if they were a little slower than dacron--they offer many more benefits than speed. ...
+1 amen, brutha chad!
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I use dynaflight for one reason...better performance.
Better in terms of speed, durability, and less handshock.
I imagine bowyer's void warantees with flemish ONLY because some people simply make them wrong. I have seen some flemishes actually come apart when put on a bow because the person that made them twisted them up the WRONG WAY...but that is NOT a "flemish" problem. That is a craftsman's problem.
Some HH bows don't have tip overlays, but most do. With tip overlays, after trying nearly every type of synthetic string there is...I would use dynaflight. I don't like dacron, but the "spongy" stretch may be a life preserver on some OLD recurve bows that do not have tip overlays. This is NOT a concern IMO on a HH bow.
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+1 right on, lee!
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This thread sort of reminds me of the Hill grip thread, which basically comes down to CHOICE. Whether FF is better than B50 (55) is debatable by personal choice. I doubt if the animals we shoot at can tell the difference. As far as durability, FF hands down wins and that's the only thing I can see as a difference. As far as "feel" this is where the debate begins. While a FF may not harm a Hill bow, it doesn't feel right on my fingers, I personally don't like skinny strings.
I find it amazing a simple Hill bow can complicate things.
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Originally posted by LongStick64:
This thread sort of reminds me of the Hill grip thread, which basically comes down to CHOICE. Whether FF is better than B50 (55) is debatable by personal choice. I doubt if the animals we shoot at can tell the difference. As far as durability, FF hands down wins and that's the only thing I can see as a difference. As far as "feel" this is where the debate begins. While a FF may not harm a Hill bow, it doesn't feel right on my fingers, I personally don't like skinny strings.
I find it amazing a simple Hill bow can complicate things.
right. choices. polyester or polyethylene.
both will more than get the job at hand done if you do your part.
however, from a purely functional perspective, hmpe is scientifically superior to dacron in its use as a bowstring fiber.
and you do have the right to use fat hmpe strings and not skinny ones. ;)
no, your mileage may not differ. :D
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Why cannot one pad the serving if there is a feel problem with skinny strings? I could see where there could be a feel problem with the skinny string biting deeper into some shooting gloves.
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Thanks Rob.
BTW, I forgot I once had an old Bear recurve that didn't have tip overlays on it that I used dynaflight on without any problems...BUT...I did some modifications to that bow.
It was not a "valuable" model or a collector, but a cheap light weight bow. It was around 40# at 28" originally I believe, but I took a belt sander to it...narrowed up the profile to bring it down to about 30#@28" and put maple tip overlays on it. Then gave it to my daughter for her "1st bow" to see if archery was something she liked. She did. Never had a problem with it, and I even shot it a few times myself after those modifications were made at my full draw length. If that bow could handle it (with the tip overlays added), I am sure you have nothing to worry about.
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Originally posted by pavan:
Why cannot one pad the serving if there is a feel problem with skinny strings? I could see where there could be a feel problem with the skinny string biting deeper into some shooting gloves.
more myths that require dispelling.
you grip the center serving and not the bowstring fiber itself. and since the center serving needs to best fit the nock's throat - not too loose and never tight - it'll be thicker (via either larger diameter serving and/or padding) and thus it ain't gonna feel any different from a normally "fat" bowstring.
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Thanks Rob, we may differ in taste but I appreciate the education.
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like yer bossonian sig line, peter!
We'll drink all together
To the gray goose feather
And the land where the gray goose flew.
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Thanks Rob, now if I could win one of Mudd's Robin Hood hats, I'll be ready to start my quest (whatever that means). And of course the new Howard Hill Robin Hood longbow.........have to do some selling before Mama allows that.
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Originally posted by LongStick64:
Thanks Rob, now if I could win one of Mudd's Robin Hood hats, I'll be ready to start my quest (whatever that means). And of course the new Howard Hill Robin Hood longbow.........have to do some selling before Mama allows that.
:D :thumbsup: :laughing:
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Chad, Rob, and Lee are right on and that's experience talking.
I will say this, and in my own humble opinion, modern string materials have done more to enhance stick bow performance than any new limb design or limb materials. I know that's saying an awful lot and I don't mind being flamed for it but I've owned and shot a lot of bows over the years. I've built bows, repaired and refinished them. I've got a slew of bows built in the 60's that when you put a modern low stretch string on them they become a totally different feeling bow. I don't care if you say more speed, less hand shock, quieter, or whatever. The bottom line is simply performance. If you take that Hill with a B-50 CHEVY string on it and replace it with a D-97 or other low stretch material you'll think you have a MERCEDES all of a sudden. Again, just MHO but that doesn't just come from reading and listening to others.
As far as a "well built" low stretch hurting the bow anymore than a B-50 string, I haven't seen it.
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How do ya know how many strands per lbs?
Burt
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Burt, that can be a "trick" question.
Some bowyers have a strand minimum, at least for the loops.
The string material manufacturers have a suggested minimum, but IMO their suggestions are overkill.
Then you have breaking strength per strand...but you have to keep in mind it's static breaking strength, not shock load. For instance, a 5 strand Dynaflight '97 string has a rated (static) strength of 625# (125# test per strand). Sounds impressive, but you wouldn't catch me with it on any of my bows.
IMO, barely enough isn't enough. If I go hunting in really cold weather, I don't want just enough clothes on to keep me from freezing to death--I want to be comfortable. I don't want to wear boots I can just barely squeeze my feet into--I want them to fit. But that's just me.
Short answer, you can go by someone's recommendation, or you can experiment to see what works best for you.
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You know, if you go to the Howard Hill website, under Price List/Longbow Accessories, you will see that Craig sells FF strings for his bows. :thumbsup:
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Not to stir the pot, but one of the bowyers I mentioned earlier--the one that said flemish strings are "less accurate and dangerous"--has been known to send his bows out with a flemish string.......... :dunno:
Point being, Mr. Eakin might sell them even though he doesn't recommend them. I don't know, it's just a possibility.
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
more myths that require dispelling.
you grip the center serving and not the bowstring fiber itself. and since the center serving needs to best fit the nock's throat - not too loose and never tight - it'll be thicker (via either larger diameter serving and/or padding) and thus it ain't gonna feel any different from a normally "fat" bowstring. [/QB]
Some string makers don't pad the serving, but leave it up to the archer to use dental floss to build up the nock area. Although either method will work, I seem to be like you, and personally prefer to build up the serving.
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I think there is one area of measurable difference between dacron and hmpe strings I did not see posted. HMPE fibers are a tad bit more abrasive than dacron. Coupled with their smaller diameter, they can cut or abraid the string nock area of limb tips more than their dacron counter parts. The bow damage I have seen most often is tip laminations are 'blown' off when using skinny hmpe strings. Many have interpreted this as the limb tips needing special reinforcement. So some feel extra micarta or other materials must be added to the limb tips to make the bow 'fast flight' compatible. I think the simpler explaination is pad the loops (flemish or continuous)especially if you want to use strings with very few strands, and any bow can handle the newer materials. Folks like Steve Turay at Northern Mist have been doing this for years and having great results.
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Good point, George. I believe Steve uses a 9 strand D-97 on all of his bows including some of his Classic and Shelton's that have only tip wedges between the lams and no tip overlays at all.
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My Yew fiberglass Hill blank tillered to match my Schulz has no damage to the nocks or the tips after thousands of shots with the padded fast flight. It does not have micarta tips and the string groves are cam shaped like my Schulz bows. I keep checking for signs of wear, but so far no problems.
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any hmpe concerns about abrasion are dismissed by padding flemish loops and is never an issue with endless since the loops are served.
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I use one of SBD's 8 strand FF strings on my Hill Halfbreed. It is quieter than the with the B50 string on it,is a little faster, and I don't get arm slap with it. The loops are padded, so there's no chance of damaging the tips. I do shoot a very heavy (14 gpp)so the bow is very, very quiet. I can't imagine how it would shorten the life of the bow.
I know some folks would say that its not the way to go, but I don't see a down side.
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What Scattershot says.
I asked Craig the exact question and though he will tell you it will shorten the life of the bow, you will not get an answer by how much. I've shot FF type materials on my Hills for years now with no problem whatsoever. So I guess it's a matter of degree. I mean so what if I can only get 200,000 shots instead of 250,000. There is hardly a more bullet proof bow than a Hill.
I find that FF has several advantages over B50. Crisper feel at the shot, reduced wrist slap and a tad more speed. Dan Quillian wrote a very informative article in "Instinctive Archer" on the subject of bowstrings. See the Fall of 1997 issue, page 22.
Steve
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Steve L
Would happen to know where I might obtain a copy of the Instinctive Archer article you mention?the magazine's archive is empty.
thanks
Ralphie
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Originally posted by Ralphie:
Steve L
Would happen to know where I might obtain a copy of the Instinctive Archer article you mention?the magazine's archive is empty.
thanks
Ralphie
why, right here, of course! :D
IAM CD (http://www.tradgang.com/rob/iam/)
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Thank you !