Trad Gang

I've been reading the threads regarding skinny bowstrings for some time and recently decided to give one a try.  My primary bow is a 55# 64" Black Widow PLV TD.  My backup bow is a 50# 64" Black Widow PLV TD.  I shoot the same arrows from both bows, CX Heritage 150's cut to 29" with 150 grain points.  I was thinking a skinny string might improve the performance of the 50# so it would be more comparable to the 55#.

Comparisons: Both bows are less than 6 months old and have have BW strings with Bow Hush silencers installed.  Brace height is set at 7.5" on both bows.  Obviously, the 55# bow shoots faster and the arrows hit harder than the 50# bow.  The 50# bow is quiet and well-mannered in the hand while the 55# bow is louder and can sometimes feel a little harsh on release (hand shock).  Additionally, for some reason i have to use an armguard with the 50# bow due to string slap.  I never use an armguard with the 55# bow.  I often switch back and forth between these bows in a single practice session so these differences are easily perceived.

Skinny Strings:  I ordered two identical 8 strand skinny strings from one of the Trad Gang sponsors, Silent But Deadly Bowstrings.  I originally planned on installing the string on the 50# bow and using the second for a backup.  When they arrived I decided to put one on each bow out of curiosity.  I installed the strings and new Bow Hush silencers in the same locations.  I set the brace height and let them stretch overnight.  The next day I rechecked the brace height and set the nock points.

First Impressions: The bowstrings are top quality and the serving fits my CX nocks well (I specified that I used these nocks when I ordered).  There is plenty of adjustability in the string and they don't look much different than the originals.  They certainly don't look "scary" as some of the posters in threads i had read had commented.

Shooting Impressions: I shot the 50# bow first.  It was still well-mannered, quiet  and appeared to be shooting a little harder.  This was especially noticeable when removing arrows from the target.  The good news is that I noticed I wasn't getting any string slap on my forearm.  I removed the armguard and, sure enough, no problem.  I assume the lighter string recovers faster (doesn't move as far forward on release) and this has eliminated the string slap.  I shot the 55# bow next.  Two improvements were immediately obvious.  First, it was a now as quiet as the 50# bow.  Second, it now was as well-mannered (pleasant in the bow hand) as the 50# bow.  I have shot many arrows from both bows switching back and forth and am very pleased with the improvements.  My quiet, well-mannered 50# bow is shooting arrows faster with no string slap  and my 55# bow is now quiet and well-mannered.  I am very pleased with the outcome and I'll be ordering two more skinny strings from SBD as backups.  I'll also be ordering a 6 strand for my wife's 30# Great Northern long bow.  I get a kick out of that bow too so I'll post results on that later.

Jat, I put a new SBD string on BW PMA III and got the same thing. A much quiter bow and and increase in it's performance. I have to say that I'm very happy with the outcome.

doug77

very thorough.  I too have heard good things, and this just proves it.

Jay, I use the SBD string on my Fedora xcellerator it came to me that way, I got the bow from another Trad gang member. I saw the string and my immediate feeling was to remove the string and order another string. I have had some not so good experiences with skinny strings. But like anybody who gets a nice new bow you just have to try it out. Well the first thing I noticed was that my carbons and wood arrows both fit the string well. The next thing I noticed was how quiet and how fast the bow was and no shock. I love this string and will be ordering more.

good report, jay - thanx.

with a properly crafted low strand count string, and when compared to a much higher count string of the same fiber type and for for the same bow, most folks are noticing less bow noise on release and a measure of added "stability" as well.  some can either perceive, or technically measure a very slight boost in arrow speed, too.

for me, an 8 strand dyneema endless string has proved to be both quieter and more release "stable" than a string of the same fiber but with 6 more strands - this is for a 55# 2pc longbow.

all in all, it does pay to at least try out a good "skinny" bowstring and judge for yerself.

Isn't it wonderful when a product and vendor do their job to achieve customer satisfaction and we don't have to call 'Peggy'!

Slightly veering off topic, I've been wondering if SBD strings or another skinny string works on bows that are not FF capable.  I'd be inerested in purchasing some if so.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pokerdaddy:
Slightly veering off topic, I've been wondering if SBD strings or another skinny string works on bows that are not FF capable.  I'd be inerested in purchasing some if so.

all that matters is the bowstring fiber type.  

if the bow can't handle modern hmpe polyethylene string fibers ("FF") then dacron polyester fiber should be used.  

since dacron has a much lower tensile strength than hmpe (dacron = 50#, hmpe = 100+#), it'd be difficult to use less dacron strands for most stickbows.

my general rule of thumb is 12 times the bow's holding weight ... meaning, for a 50# stickbow, the string needs to have a tensile strength of around 600#.  using dacron @ 50# per strand, that means a 12 strand dacron string.  it would be borderline to go much below 10 strands for that bow.

on the other hand, it would take only 6 strands of most any hmpe string fiber to equal (or better) the 600# tensile strength required for that 50# bow.

see what i mean?

If I were going to six strands then I'd use Ultra Cam, it is all that I build with now.I initially tried soem low count D97 on a heavier bow and got too much creep. I have a eight strand UC on a 60#@28 PAX and it is faster and quieter and required an arrow with more spine. I build to the brace height that I need so as to have one half twist per inch to keep string mass low.Too much string length requiring too many twists to brace will not produce optimum results but will be quieter.

Since I'm one of several that has posted concerns about low strand count strings, I feel I should make some clarifications here.  

Both noise and hand shock are (after bow design) primarily a matter of tuning (brace height, silencer placement, nock fit, arrow spine, etc).  A few strands difference in a string (same or very similar material) is not going to magically transform a bow.  

Pretty sure I've never used the term "scary" to describe a lsc string, but they do concern me.  I've had several "rush" orders over the years because a string was accidently cut.  

Chronograph tests have shown that most bows have no noticeable gain in performance by dropping a few strands.  If you have to go up in arrow spine, there is a different reason.  If you gained any noticeable performance, the chonrograph would show it.

It's ironic that J-Kid's tests were done on Black Widow bows, as Ken Beck is one of the folks who I agree with who has done extensive testing (on BW bows) to find no appreciable benefits to lsc strings (on BW bows).


Lsc strings stretch more, at least when comparing apples to apples, requireing the string to be adjustable.  

Lsc strings are much less adjustable.  "Plenty adjustable" is a relative term like "scary".  I don't feel that 1/4" of adjustment is "plenty" for most.  One of the reasons I prefer flemish over endless is because they are (usually) much more adjustable.

Lsc strings are nothing new.  I've made them for 12-15 years, (by request only).  Before accepting an order, I try to be sure folks understand that, like most anything else, there is give and take.  Everything is a trade-off, no exceptions here.  12-15 years ago the fad was 6-8 strand 450+, but it died out for the most part in a short time.

I didn't care for lsc strings back then for the same reasons I don't care for them now... but I do suggest that anyone who's curious try one for themselves rather than take my (or anyone else's) opinion as gospel.

For the record, what I refer to as a lsc (low strand count) string is a string with less than 10 strands, except on very low draw weights.

Just my opinion--take it for what it's worth.  It's based on around 20 years of making strings and talking to some of the best hunters and shooters in the U.S., but your results may vary.

Chad the above mentioned PAX is 14-15fps faster through the chrono by mechanical release with the same arrow and an 8 strand Ultra Cam as opposed to a 14 strand D97 at the same brace height and thus it shoots a little weaker with the U.C. Also when drawn to the same exact 28" the bow scale shows that the 8 strand is drawing 62# while the D97 drawn to 28# is drawing 60# because it is stretching due to more twists having an accordian effect. So the difference between the two and the difference in speed and spine is a result of the Ultra Cam string being made to the exact length at which the bow functions best and the D97 is a standard 60" AMO with a lot more twists in it. You could design a string to fit a particular with respect to length out of D97 and get a similar but smaller change than the LSC UC. There is no magic bullet for LSC strings because you cannot make a standard AMO length string to go on any bow and reap the benefits of matching a string to a particular bow. That is why there is no marketability for them for a company like Black Widow, it would be impractical for them for retail sales so therefore the word is that they just don't work.

String construction is a big factor--loosing 2# of draw weight because the string has so many twists tells a lot.  One, you are loosing 2# of pull, so it's not an even test.  2# heavier is going to shoot 2# faster.  Two, it tells me the string isn't properly made--it's not an apples to apples test.  Although uncommon in my experience, string material can also be a factor.  For some reason, some bows "like" one material over another, and do better with it.

I've posted over and over about not trying to make strings to AMO specs, but rather make them to fit the bow.  Going by AMO is a shot in the dark, because many bows don't follow AMO guidelines.

I think I get what you are saying, but I don't see where it applies here.  An apples to apples test would be two Dynaflight '97 strings made to fit the bow, or two UC strings made to fit the bow, or two 8125 strings, etc.;  one with 12 strands and one with 8 strands.  Then you would get an honest comparison.

I can build a dacron string that's "faster" than a UC string, but it wouldn't be an honest comparison.

I almost jumped on the band wagon and ordered a couple skinny strings, but then I remembered that I switched from a compound to a longbow for a reason.   That reason is that I wanted to get back to the basics, and use the tried and true.  If I wanted more speed, I would hit the gym more often, and get a heavier pounded bow.  So for now, and for the forseeable future for that matter, I'm gonna stick to my 57# RER longbow (LXR) and stick with stock strings.

Wow, I almost had a relaps. LOL

Chad the 60"AMO string was a Black Widow D97, the same string that according to the maker was equal in performance to any LSC. The LSC Ultra Cam that I make is made to fit my bow. I also made an eight strand D97 the same length and twist to brace as my Ultra Cam. It would never settle and crept regularly and when drawn to 28" only pulled 58.5# due to stretch and that is apples to apples. The LSC D97 was too unstable to suit me plus a 3.0-3.5# disadvantage at the same draw length as the Ultra Cam. It works because I had to prove it to myself, but from a mass production stand point it is not possible to realize those numbers wit strings going out to so many different bows and set ups.
I wasn't necessarily after a faster arrow because deer are jumping the string on 300fps compounds so 10-20 fps diff erence is really negligible. What I wanted and what I got was a much quieter bow  shooting a heavier arrow at around the same speed and trajectory as before for more momentum and penetration. Not for everybody but worth it to me.

David if you are getting that many more FPS take it to Widow. Ken Beck wrote this on the Widow Wall.


TESTING STRINGS
In response to a lot of interest in various string materials and "skinny" strings, we have performance tested several materials in both conventional and "skinny" versions to compare to our standard 14 strand DynaFLIGHT 97. Ray Caliendo (our milling machine guru and longtime string maker and expert) made the strings used for testing. The "skinny" strings had about half the strands but were padded in the loops to protect from what I call the "piano wire effect" that can split the limb tips. The center servings were also padded to get the desired arrow nock fit. For our purposes here, no silencers when installed.

Here is our testing protocol: For the recurve test, we selected a 60" PSA X. We chose to do the tests at a 30" draw (rather than 28") to maximize any benefit gained. The bow was braced at 8 1/ 4" and weighed on our electronic digital scale (0.1 increments) and it weighed in at 57.5#. Then we built an arrow that weighed exactly 517.5 grains (9 x 57.5#). (A higher brace would give a slightly higher draw weight and thus require a heavier arrow.) The shooting was done with our shooting machine. For each test, the bow was drawn with the winch to exactly 30" and the mechanical release was then activated. Each test requires only two or three shots through the chronograph. The readout will never vary more than one foot per second. If the first and second shots read the same (which is usually the case), we record this fps number. If not, we shoot a third arrow and record the two-out-of-three number. Since our chronograph does not measure in tenths of fps, our method is only accurate to within plus or minus 1/ 2 fps. A different chronograph might read faster or slower, but our testing protocol would produce the same consistency.

PSA X 60" RECURVE 57.5# @ 30" 517.5 grain arrow

DynaFLIGHT 97 14 strand 196 fps

Ultra Cam 16 strand 195 fps

Ultra Cam 8 strand 195 fps

Excellerent 12 strand 195 fps

Excellerent 8 strand 195 fps

Astro Flight 20 strand 195 fps

Astro Flight 10 strand 195 fps

Trophy 20 strand 196 fps

Trophy 12 strand 196 fps

D 10 18 strand 197 fps

D 10 12 strand 196 fps

We then tested a 60" (so we could use the same strings) PL X longbow of exactly the same draw weight at 30" with basically the same results, only 2 to 3 fps slower than the recurve. A 64" longbow would have been more suitable for a 30" draw and would have reduced the difference between the longbow and the recurve. We also compared speeds with and without the typical four Spider string silencers with a difference of 2-3 fps (2 fps on the DF 97}.

As you can see, it's a washout. I was not surprised because I had tested an endless "skinny" string some time ago with the same result. Even though these 60" "skinny" strings (with padded loops and center serving) weigh 20 to 30 grains less (depending on which strand material), fewer strands allow more stretch or elasticity and we thus loose what we hoped to gain. The conventional D 10 string was 1 fps faster for both the recurve and longbow.

Well, there may be those who question these numbers and feel that the "Old Man" has gone over-the-hill and senility has set in. I would simply suggest "Grumpy" old man. So here's the deal: Since I'm "from Missouri", bring your Black Widow bow to Missouri with your properly padded "skinny" string and "show me". Using the scientific testing method described above (you may determine the brace height), if you can achieve an additional 3 fps over a standard 14 strand DynaFLIGHT 97 string, we will build you a new Black Widow bow of your choice. BUT.... if you can not achieve an additional 3 fps, you must leave your Black Widow bow with us, OR.... pay for a new Black Widow bow that we will build for you. SUCH A DEAL! If there is a better mouse trap, we want to know about it! (This offer will expire 12-31-2010.)

I have also resurrected a post from the past entitled "TESTING & COMPARING BOW PERFORMANCE" for you to review.

Let me summerize: PHYSICS is PHYSICS is PHYSICS.... and you can't get around it.

Ken Beck

Mike,
If you use a one of those new fangled FastFlight strings you've already jumped on the band wagon.  I'd recommend you give skinny strings (they are not really that skinny by the way) a try and see if it doesn't give you an even better shooting bow.  If it does you win.  If it doesn't your out a few bucks but now you know.

An open mind is a beautiful thing!

Let me reiterate, both bows were tuned with original stings.  I replicated the brace, nock and silencer locations exactly.  (I am now doing some tweaking to make sure they are shooting optimally with the new strings.)  My results were 1) no more string slap with the lighter bow, 2) the heavier bow is now  sweet in the bow hand, and 3) the heavy bow is now as quiet as the lighter bow.  I shoot both bows every day and going back and forth every three arrows between the bows makes these improvements obvious.

I don't have a chronograph so I can't say if the bows are shooting harder, however, when I pull the arrows from the lighter bow it appears they are (and I've pulled a lot of arrows from that bow with the original string).

I'm very pleased with the results (regardless of any speed changes) and absolutely will not return to the original strings.  The skinny strings have kicked my enjoyment up a couple notches.

I saw all that and talked to Ken, I thought I was going to be able to detour by there back in April but schedule changes and a ratty economy required me to be here instead. I don't need anymore Black Widows, I have three for sale in the classifieds now if anybody needs a lefthanded bow.
The whole thing that was danced around there was that these strings need to be made for a specific bow which means that a lot of string making and testing of set ups goes into finding out what length is needed. You're kind of shooting at a moving target because a change in one area results several other changes. Finding the ideal brace height is key and building your string for that bow with minimal twist. I build mine with one half twist per inch max. If you look at a 60"AMO Black Widow string on my bow it has considerably more twist which means there is excessive string length and weight, so it doesn't matter what you build a string out of or how many strands it has if it is longer than necessary then it is heavier and more likely to have the slinky effect on release, which causes their string to draw and hold less weight than mine, and no improvement will be seen which may serve to justify some peoples points and position.

That makes sense.  SBD Strings requires two measurements.  Bow length and actual string length on a braced bow.  I guess there is less room for error.

Like I said, lsc strings are nothing new.  For real test results, you need calibrated shooting equipment--chrony, Hooter-Shooter, and for sound, a decimenter.

I don't begrudge anyone for talking about their favorites or their preferances.  Just call it what it is--opinions.  "Looks like", "sounds like", "seems like", etc. are opinions, not verifiable results.

I've gathered data on them for years, from people who do use chronographs, Hooter-Shooters, etc.  Test equipment doesn't have opinions.

I can say that I've never encountered the amount of stretch/creep noted with Dynaflight '97.  I don't go less than 10 strands on personal bows, and they are pulling 60-65@30.5.  It takes a LOT of twists to get an "accordion" effect, and it takes a lot to affect performance to any degree.  Lots of other variables come into play--again, calibrated machines have to be used for a test, otherwise it's just an opinion.

If twists caused that much of a difference, then we'd see a huge, or at least noticeable, difference in performance between endless and flemish.  It's simply not there.

I'm glad Ken's offer was brought up.  Even if you don't "need" another bow (that's a new one on me!), that's a pretty hefty bounty being offered up--not to mention bragging rights for the world to see.  To my knowledge, nobody has taken him up on it yet.

I just finished yet another 2-hour shooting session alternating between bows.  WOW!  All the bad qualities of the two bows are gone.  No string slap, sweet in the hand, and the noise from both bows are the same.  (One of my daughters could always tell which bow I'd shot due to the noise difference.  Not anymore!)

As for speed...  My accuracy has not been as good as with the original strings so I took my bare shaft, which I shoot regularly right into my group, and gave it a shot.  Then another - and another.  You guessed it, it is shooting very weak.  I did some tinkering with point weights and I think I'll have to move up to a CX 250 which is fine because I'm as short as I can go with the 150s and I could use a little more arrow weight.

i just fell in love with both bows all over again.
I'm one happy camper!   :goldtooth:

i have a skinny string and i love it it makes the Bow real Quiet and Quick its on a royalcrown  fox 48# @28" and shoots axis 500 with a good out come im sold on them fer sure. and its all rasterman,s fault  :biglaugh:  thanks Bro

I made some strings this year. It was hard to find trad strings and what you do find is one size fits all. Found an old Herter's String Jig at a yard sale, bought it in the package. Still had the Herter's string chart. Made a couple on the light side that work just fine. These new /old style strings/ with a 45 pound Bear bow! WOW ! They are all you need. I also used a few 40 pound Bear bows and got the same results.

J-Kid, sounds like an ideal time to talk with Mr. Beck and get yourself a free bow. 'Course you'll have to verify your results with actual tests....  :readit:  

There's always a "catch".....

yeah, skinny strings are also a good cure for both war and world hunger.     :laughing:    :rolleyes:

but seriously, and i can only verbalize for myself, there is a clear and marked difference in the way my lscs longbows feel between the time the string fingers slip away and the arrow clears the shelf, and it's a good and more consistent feeling ... for me.  

if it wasn't for that good 'n' stable feeling - repeated time and time again with each new lscs i spin for any one of my 5 or 6 bows - i wouldn't ever bother spinning and using endless lscs strings on all my bows.  

are my longbows quieter?  definitely, yes.  i ran planned tests with and without hush puppies on both 14 strand and 8 strand strings.  in all cases, the skinny was clearly quieter.  again, for me.

am i getting more arra speed with a skinny string?  heck if i know - or care!  i'm not one for taking long (over 30 yard) shots at critters, so i doubt i could tell (or if it would matter) that the lighter string is adding 1 or 2 or 3 fps.  i just don't care!

as said too many times in this and other such 'skinny string' threads, lsc strings are worth a try as all the opinions don't mean squat 'til you use one and find out for yerself if it's fish or cut bait worthy.

I shoot 6 strand 450+ on my 60# longbows and love them. Quieter, faster and less hand shock.

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
J-Kid, sounds like an ideal time to talk with Mr. Beck.

I'm looking forward to meeting him, Roger and the whole gang at BW.  I got to spend a couple days shooting with Darryl Quidort and Denny Sturgis Jr. (two great guys) before Compton's this past summer and I caught the Black Widow bug.  Those guys are big time carriers of that bug!  I ordered a BW PLV TD and, for me, a bad day shooting that bow is like a good day with my previous bows.  I then was fortunate to pick up another from a fellow TradGanger that was identical to mine and couple pounds lighter (which is good for my two son's-in-law that are scholarship athletes with weak bow muscles - Ha!).  I don't know how fast they are and I don't really care.  Out to 25-30 yards I'm good to go.  There were a few things I didn't like about both bows and the skinny strings fixed those problems.

:deadhorse:  

Opinions are like...well, you know...everybody has one.

Shooting a traditional bow is probably 90 percent mental. If you THINK a skinny string makes your bow better, it will be! All the sophisticated testing equipment in the world won't change that.

I certainly can't disagree with Ken Beck, nor with Chad in terms of arrow speed. Heck, I don't even own a chronograph. I don't give two hoots about speed to begin with. On my longbows, I find an 8 or 10 strand D97 string SEEMS quieter TO ME. I don't shoot heavy poundage bows, as you can see from my signature, so safety is not an issue.

I have a Black Widow string on my Badger recurve, and that bow likes that string. I tried a skinny string but didn't like the way it shot on that bow. I'll stick with a 12 or 14 strand D97 on that one.

I would agree that a bow needs to have a string that fits that bow, which is why I build my own.

Do what you think works for you. This is one case where perception is important. Confidence in your setup is critical.

Got the chrono, got the hooter shooter, got the results. I have what works for me and that's what counts. Never heard of not needing a new  bow? Then let me sell you a couple if you shoot LH. Good luck with it,you'll do a lot better making your own.

Okay, I've got to ask, what the heck is a Hooter Shooter?

I shoot most nights inside a 20 yard long, eight foot wide and eight foot tall concrete box.  

Y'all can pooh-pooh the difference all you like, but I am telling you that even (especially?) in such an acoustically live environment, there is a very noticable difference in noise between a 14 strand string and an eight strand string.

As for speed and efficiency, removing 20 to 30 grains of moving mass is going to result in a change?  Noticable?  Depends on how good your bow was to start with, I guess.  If you aren't seeing ANY change, something is missing.  That's comparable to a 5% or better change in arrow weight.

Dang guys... I understand why people want to improve on something...if that is possible with a string that connects the ends of a bow together, but i'm tellin ya..a skinny string wouldn't last a month where I hunt.

You should see the frays in my ordinary string after a month of deer season. Heck Im scared of it now and it's a 18 strand!

My bow is quiet, stable and shoots where I look.
If your bow is not, it's not because of the string you are using.

QuoteOkay, I've got to ask, what the heck is a Hooter Shooter?  

It's a contraption that will draw your bow to a specific length and has a trigger with a release aid.  It's used to test bows (both kinds).  You can't get accurate test results without removing the human factor, which the HS does.

 

QuoteMy bow is quiet, stable and shoots where I look.If your bow is not, it's not because of the string you are using.  

Thanks Bob.  I'm all for making something better, and I understand perception meaning more than actual stats in some cases.  I'm not trying to make anyone look or feel silly because they like lsc strings, I'm just trying to get the facts on the table.  

The facts are:  most bows don't show a noticeable performance gain--I think Mr. Beck's offer has been on the table for a year or so, and no takers so far--that says a whole lot;  in all these threads we see lots of opinions, but rarely if ever any real test results and/or apple to apple comparisons;  when you reduce the strand count you reduce durability;  when you reduce the strand count you increase the stretch/creep;  and finally there is no "magic" string just like there's no magic bow, no magic arrow, no magic broadhead.  There's no replacements for tuning and practice, at least not without trade-offs.

Like I said, if you like 'em, shoot 'em.  Just list the opinions as what they are, and not as facts.  That's all I ask.

If someone were to just take Mr. Beck up on his challenge, a lot of this could be settled.  I believe there's a reason he doesn't have any takers...but that's just my opinion.  :bigsmyl:

My experience and chronograph TESTING has shown it takes about 15 grains of string weight reduction to = 1 fps.

As far as the KEN BECK CHALLENGE...To say the reason they deny the results is because he can't market low strand strings is simply doesn't hold water. ANYONE can make a low strand count string...including Ken's company.

DAN QUILLAN advertised low strand bowstrings probably close to two decades ago now. He used ff before going to 8 strand count 450Premium...yes, I said 450 premium, not 450+. 450+ came out later, and he switched to that. About a decade or so ago he used to order his bowstrings from me, and not long after I started making his strings he switched to 10-12 of dynaflight97 since D97 was a slimmer individual strand size.

All that said, I don't use lsc bowstrings myself, but I have little or no concerns about going down to 9 strands 3 ply dyanflight97 or D10. I wouldn't go below that myself though. Personally, I shoot 12 strands most of the time. I also have nothing against 15 strands either, especially when in the bush fighting briars and such. The issue isn't that significant IMO. I am not saying one can't go below that should they want to, but personally I think the risks outweigh the gains should one go below 9 strands of such diameter dyneema (hmpe) strands.

People should be skeptical and let the facts present themselves in order to find what works for them...don't please use some objective measure of facts like a draw marked arrow and a chronograph rather than subjective measures like "my arrow feels harder to pull out of the target" (which is more influenced by where you hit the target).

I also agree with Chad that if you are getting an "accordian" affect with D97 then the string wasn't made properly.

I notice that many light weight bowstring users are also using pure spectra type (a hmpe), which is a slick non-braided serving. I myself don't like that type of serving because it is more prone to slip than a braided serving and has to be put on extremely tight...and I am not so sure I would want that much side "crushing" pressure on a light weight 6 strand string that is ALSO stressed to close to its limit already. Just food for thought. IMO, if you are going to use a lsc bowstring, use a braided serving that is less prone to slippage and still put it on snug of course (but without having concern of overdoing tightness to avoid slipping). Stability is gone when a nock moves up or down. If you think I am kidding...try this VERY simple test, which only takes 30 seconds to confirm. Get a piece of dental floss...which is NOT that strong even. Wrap it around a spectra serving just one or two times. Then, take both loose ends of the dental floss and wrap them around your finger (or a pencil) and then pull it either up or down the bowstring. There is a good chance you will be able to slide the spectra serving an 1/8" or more and have a gap exposing the string fibers underneith. That is GREATLY REDUCED with a braided serving such as the #62 braid (there are other good braided servings as well).

One last comment. I do NOT want my comments to reflect on silient but deadly bowstrings. I looked at their website and from what I see their bowstring construction METHOD appears second to none, as you can see their flemish is tight and their bundles lay together in the body of the string (instead of being like two ropes wrapped around each other). Chad (LBR) also makes a well made bowstring. There are a bunch of improperly made bowstrings out there, but both LBR (Chad) and SBD do a good job twisting up their strings.

Ok Guys........Now my head hurts.    :knothead:  

Way too technical for something simple as a stick and string, and that's why I fell in love with shooting my Bear Grizzly, and now my home made 14 strand B-500 Flemish Twist strings. It's whisper quiet, not real fast, but accurate, forgiving, and a pleasure to shoot. Another reason why I like 12-14 strands is the serving vs. arrow nock issue. The arrow nock fits more secure without slippage on the serving in my experience. I know I could go to a larger dia. serving material, but I think that .22 dia. serving material is plenty heavy and the .30 dia. serving is $6 bucks more per same size spool.......so that made my decision on that issue.

To each his own, but this skinny string talk just goes right over my head. I do get the concept, but when your bow is shooting less than 250fps with a 500+ grain arrow, I can't really see any advantage of one string over another except the absence of excess noise, and hand shock. Which has already been described by a few members as tuning issues and not so much the string.
I can agree with that.

The original poster seems very convinced that this has helped his bow set ups, and that adds confidence to his shooting....that's great. If you believe that it's made a real difference by shooting a skinnier than normal string, then I'd say go for it. Because that builds confidence and Lord knows we need confidence in our equipment to do what we do, and how we choose to do it!
If you don't have confidence in your equipment or your shooting abilities, then you should not go afield with it, that's a recipe for failure.

I think I'll just stick with simple.   :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:

Quote... and finally there is no "magic" string just like there's no magic bow, no magic arrow, no magic broadhead. [/b]

I had a magic string, a magic bow, a magic arrow, and a magic broadhead once. The trouble was when Siegfried and Roy made them disappear when I was trying to shoot their tiger.    :dunno:   The tiger disappeared too!    ;)

Allan

this skinny string thing has been hacked to death a zillion times, and it's starting to get pretty lame.  

the claims about using lsc strings drifts from curing world hunger to snake oil.  there is a middle ground, though, and i'm convinced that not everyone has the bow, the arrow, the form, and the right lsc string to produce an effective result.

don't spout words unless you've put in a serious effort to do the proper testing/trialing yerself.  this is not a project for everyone, it takes time, effort, money ... and some smarts.  

other than that, those who absolutely are physically (not mentally) seeing a benefit(s) of sorts will decide whether or not to keep using lsc strings.  i'm in that camp and i do feel & hear a physical benefit that has nothing to do with arrow speed.

the absolute bottom line is that YOU NEED a decent string that produces consistent, stable results for YOU and YOUR bow(s).  and it sure as heck don't matter whether that string is 18 strands or 8 strands.

can i get an amen, my brothers and sisters of the stick 'n' string bow?      :notworthy:

Amen Brother!  Preach it!

I obviously opened a can of worms for some.  This is unfortunate because all this talk about Hooter Shooters and speed misses the point of my original post and will likely dissuade a reader who might truly see positive results from a string with fewer or more strands.  I was just chronicling my perception of my experience for future readers that might want to research the subject.  I didn't expect anyone would be changing the subject so they could bring dogs to the fight.

As an academic and a psychologist I critically review research methodology and statistics every day.  I'm well aware of the need for empiricism, however, I trust people's perceptions (most of the time).  That is the real world we live in.  I have benefited from the 8 strand strings with my two bows.  If one of the bows shot the same I'd go back to the stock string in a heartbeat.  If I tried a Dacron string and perceived an advantage I'd switch to that.  You guys who are touting scientific testing adjust your brace height, nock point, shelf material and probably use string silencers - and I know you have not tested all those adjustments using scientific procedures.  It's all about tuning and perception is very much a part of that process.  Otherwise, every bow would be tuned on a machine and be delivered ready to go. Amen?

QuoteOriginally posted by J-KID:
Amen Brother!  Preach it!

I obviously opened a can of worms for some.  This is unfortunate because all this talk about Hooter Shooters and speed misses the point of my original post and will likely dissuade a reader who might truly see positive results from a string with fewer or more strands.  I was just chronicling my perception of my experience for future readers that might want to research the subject.  I didn't expect anyone would be changing the subject so they could bring dogs to the fight.

As an academic and a psychologist I critically review research methodology and statistics every day.  I'm well aware of the need for empiricism, however, I trust people's perceptions (most of the time).  That is the real world we live in.  I have benefited from the 8 strand strings with my two bows.  If one of the bows shot the same I'd go back to the stock string in a heartbeat.  If I tried a Dacron string and perceived an advantage I'd switch to that.  It's all about tuning and perception is very much a part of that process.  Otherwise, every bow would be tuned on a machine and be delivered ready to go. Amen?

and amen i say to you, brother jay!    :thumbsup:     :notworthy:

QuoteOriginally posted by 30coupe:
Okay, I've got to ask, what the heck is a Hooter Shooter?

great pic, but no wheelies or chickadees, pleez.  :D

VERY nice form

For some it do and some it don't...>>>----->  
As the upcoming holiday rapidly approaches...

We would like to wish everyone and their families a safe and wonderful holiday season.   :pray:  


As a reminder...Due to the over whelming demand for our strings and repeat orders, please allow 2-3 weeks for delivery....Sometimes longer during the holiday season with holiday mail.

God Bless,   Pierre and Jean-Pierre

You said you thought the sound went down, are you certian it wasn't from a change in tone?  I found the skinny strings were higher pitch than the standard.  This is basic physics, the same principle as a guitar or piano string.  To me the higher pitch would gbe a negative for hunting.  

I also found a very small increase in speed, not enough to offset the negatives.  I used 452x but can't imagine it would be any different than D97.  But I plan to try that too.

Well, as an "academic and a psychologist" I'm sure you very well know the effect word choice has on people.  

When you put out comments like:

"They certainly don't look "scary" as some of the posters in threads i had read had commented."

on down to

"I didn't expect anyone would be changing the subject so they could bring dogs to the fight.",

I'm sure you knew exactly what you were doing.  Guess I'm the fool for falling for it.  Oh well...

Either way, the facts still stand as facts.

The facts are:

*There are trade-offs, especially when making extreme changes

*Perception may mean more than reality to some folks

*There is no magic equipment, including strings

*Tuning and practice are imperitive

*There are no long-term shortcuts

*Proper test equipment doesn't show bias or opinions or perceptions

*lsc strings are nothing new

*If there is a real benefit to ANY equipment, the top shooters will be using it

I'm sure I missed several, but those are the ones off the top of my head.

As several of us keep stating, when it's this cheap and easy to do, just give it a try and see what you think..   I never suspected a simple request of keeping it factual and honest would raise any hackles.  

If you can make a string, you can make a lsc string, or a regular string, or whatever--it's not exactly rocket science.  If you can't, just buy one.

I'm just a string nut and it bugs me when opinions or any other misleading statements are given as fact.  This stuff can be hard enough without all that.  I don't think my request to keep it honest is at all unreasonable.

Chad

Excellent comment MAT.  THAT is why I rather rely on facts instead of perception.

I have a serious question here.  If you drop your strand count then the string weighs less, correct?  About how much say for a 14 strand ultracam string to an 8 strand ultracam string?  If there is a big weight difference do you then have to increase your arrow weight if you want to stay above a certain gpp (especially when the bow's warranty states this)?  ex...if you are shooting the minimum for your bow (say 8gpp) then you drop the strand count does this have the same effect as dropping the arrow weight?

Not saying I intend to do this or that I shoot anywhere near the min gpp (I like 11-12 gpp).  I just have an inquiring mind and it is really crappy outside today...Mike

QuoteOriginally posted by mooseman76:
I have a serious question here.  If you drop your strand count then the string weighs less, correct?  

obviously

About how much say for a 14 strand ultracam string to an 8 strand ultracam string?  

dunno, don't care

If there is a big weight difference do you then have to increase your arrow weight if you want to stay above a certain gpp (especially when the bow's warranty states this)?  ex...if you are shooting the minimum for your bow (say 8gpp) then you drop the strand count does this have the same effect as dropping the arrow weight?

yer micro managing this whole thing - the weight savings 'tween a 14 strand and 8 strand dyneema string ain't all that a big deal and IMO not a reason to drop string strand count.  if a mega, and i mean MEGA, increase in arra speed equates to 5 fps, what does that mean for trad bowhunter who typically downs game at 5 to 20 yards?  ... nothing worth mentioning.  
...

Yes, whether or not it is worth mentioning is up to you. It can be a big enough difference for your arrow, particularly if it is at minimum to shoot weak, requiring an adjustment in tuning. Once again, for me the goal was a quieter bow without excessive silencing measures. I was shooting a Black Widow PAX which is far from being the quietest bow made. I have not recently fallen from a turnip wagon and am fully aware of all aspects of tuning, brace and arrow adjustment although I'm not so much of an internet gheek. What I got was a much quieter bow shooting a slightly heavier arrow at about the same speed and trajectory, all pluses in my book. Some of you guys act like if you don't know it then it is not worth knowing, but that is easy on a keyboard. Good luck and have at it.

The weight difference is minimal. A strand of Dynaflight '97 (waxed) that is 80" long weighs 6 grains (for comparison, a brass nockset weighs 4 grains).  80" is more than long enough to make a 63" string (for a 66" bow).  

Now, remove the excess to allow for what's in the loops (which has no bearing on performance) and you have 4 grains for a 60" strand.  

The weight difference between a 14 strand Dynaflight '97 and an 8 strand Dynaflight '97 (I don't have UC) is 36 actual grains (the same as a .22 long rifle hollow point, or a single 6" strip of "cat whisker" silencer), but the working difference (moving part of the string) is 24 grains.  

That 24 grains is distributed throughout the length of the string, so it's going to have basically the same effect as a couple of extra nock points, or a small set of cat whisker silencers.

Short answer, there's no need to worry about shooting a heavier arrow if you go to a lsc string.

Rob beat me to it (I was practicing what I preached, by weighing stuff out before posting).

Basically, what he said.

Didn't mean to micro manage.  I really didn't know what the weight difference was between the two strings.  I thought if it was a huge difference then it could be detrimental to the bow if someone were shooting a light arrow to begin with.  

The only thing and I mean the ONLY thing that interests me at all in skinny strings is noise reduction.  I haven't jumped on board yet, but have a string on order from SBD to see for myself.  My Toelke longbow is whisper quiet with the stock string so not sure if the lower strands will make much difference but they may on some of the other bows that are a tad noisier (and really any noise reduction is a plus in my book.  I know I'd use different silencers if they made a difference so why not a different string).  Thank you for the clarifications...Mike

QuoteOriginally posted by MAT:
You said you thought the sound went down, are you certian it wasn't from a change in tone?  I found the skinny strings were higher pitch than the standard.  This is basic physics, the same principle as a guitar or piano string.  To me the higher pitch would gbe a negative for hunting.  

I also found a very small increase in speed, not enough to offset the negatives.  I used 452x but can't imagine it would be any different than D97.  But I plan to try that too.

I'm sure different bows resonate more or less, but on my hybrid the sound level is absolutely down, and no, the pitch isn't any higher.  For pitch to be higher you would have to apply more stress to the string.  You don't get a higher pitch on a guitar by using a smaller string..you get a higher pitch by both using a smaller string and then stretching it tighter than a larger string.  Just going to a smaller string doesn't change much.

I don't have an answer as to why a smaller string makes such a difference in sound, but it's very easy to demonstrate.  I've even asked friends to stand jsut outside my concrete shooting range and tell me which shot is quieter while I switch between strings.  There's no doubt at all that on my hybrid, the eight strand D97 is quieter than the 14 strand that was on the bow when I got it.

QuoteFor pitch to be higher you would have to apply more stress to the string.

By reducing strands you are applying more stress.  

To keep it simple, say you are pulling 100# on a 20 strand string.  That comes out to each strand having 5# of stress applied.

Drop the strand count to 10 strands--you just doubled the stress on each strand without increasing the draw weight.

I dont use a skinnier string for speed.I shoot mostly 8 strand,sometimes 6 and 10 strands and they have made a noticable improvement in the area of noise when a bows shot and also I feel the bow shoots nicer,sweeter and softer in the hand.

Thats my personell experience testing many different strings of different strand counts and also different string materials on many differnt bows over the last few years.

Thier is no doubt in my mind.

And put a smaller string on a guitar, then torque it to the same spec as a larger string.  The pitch won't change.

You have to wind that smaller string up tighter than the larger string, not just more stress per amount of material.

I'm not doing a very good job of explaining the phenomena, but if you sit down with a guitar and start playing with the A and B strings, you'll see it pretty quickly.  You have to apply a lot more torque to the B string to get the higher pitch.  Just having a smaller string doesn't do the trick.

I just posted a Poll on PowWow.

I'm curious as to how many people have even tried a Skinny String and how many have had positive experiences with them.  Sometimes people will vote on a poll but won't chime in on a thread.

David, the question was about mass weight, not arrow spine.  Dropping a few strands from the string doesn't mean you need to shoot a heavier (mass weight) arrow to keep from damaging your bow or voiding your warranty (unless the bowyer specifies otherwise).

not that ANY of the following matters other than for curiosity's sake ...

a guitar that's concert tuned to A-440 pitch using .011 to .048 gauge strings will have the high .011 "E" string at about 19.6# tensile strength and the low .048 "E" string at about 21.3# tensile strength and 2 octaves lower in pitch.

if you increase the tension on the high "E" string 1.7#, to the same tensile strength as the low "E" string, the note produced by the smaller string is higher in pitch (the note goes from "E" to perhaps "F#" or "G").

i think that best simulates what happens with a "skinny" bowstring - the skinny string tension remains the same as with a "fat" string, assuming the limbs are the same and the same brace height is achieved, and that will create a higher note on that skinny string.  

so why does the skinny string sound quieter than the fatter string?  

my thinking is that the deeper resonant tone, with more pronounced volume, of the fat bowstring is, like with stringed instruments, is easier to perceive, easier for the human ear and body to pickup.    

the skinny string will have a higher pitch, but with lower volume and so harder to hear and/or perceive.  this is the exact same for stringed instruments.  ask me how i know this.     ;)

Rob,
This would mean that a bow that sounds more quiet to a human may actually be more perceivable to an animal!  Interesting...

QuoteOriginally posted by J-KID:
Rob,
This would mean that a bow that sounds more quiet to a human may actually be more perceivable to an animal!  Interesting...

that could very very well be true ....

QuoteOriginally posted by Steelhead:
I dont use a skinnier string for speed.I shoot mostly 8 strand,sometimes 6 and 10 strands and they have made a noticable improvement in the area of noise when a bows shot and also I feel the bow shoots nicer,sweeter and softer in the hand.

Thats my personell experience testing many different strings of different strand counts and also different string materials on many differnt bows over the last few years.

Thier is no doubt in my mind.

That is also my experience across the board on all bows.  I find the pitch of the sound to go lower not higher.  That is unless there are two sounds; one I can hear as lower and one I can't hear at all because it is too high.  I seriously doubt it, but it is possible I guess.  I shoot with others who can also hear my bow, and I can hear it shot by them.  I also shoot in my metal barn and outside along the wall so I can hear not only the sound behind the bow, but from the sound bounced back to me from the side and even above the bow.  
I get substantial reduction in sound with an 8 vs. 14 or more strand string.   So much so that I only shoot half of less strings silencer material.  On some bows I have gone from two sets of cat whiskers to one set using two half strips on the string and still have significantly less noise.  That is a 75% reduction in silencer material with what sounds like at least a 50% reduction in sound volume.
I recently did a test drive on a black widow pch.  I used the standard string and installed my own bow hush and hush puppies.  I tried all kinds of other silencers.  I couldn't get that bow as quiet as I would need to want to shoot one.  The sound was a higher pitched twang.  I couldn't get a custom SBD string in time to test the bow before it had to go back.  Recently I purchased a used pch with a skinny string of some kind.  I don't even know what it is, but looks to be maybe D-97 8 strand.   With that string I have the bow shooting almost as quiet as one of my long bows.   It has a very dull thump now.  It is hard to believe there is that much difference.  I would not own a BW if I had to shoot a factory string on it.

Rob, now that post about pitch is something I agree with. Years ago I did a field called "Field Testers needed, that quiet spot." I gave directions according to a musician as to how to alter pitches in a bow's string. That musician actually PICKED UP A BOW and started PLAYING IT like a musical instrument...getting different notes from it. It was kind of neet. In further discussion, he told me where according to him to put siliencers to get the most benefit. He talked about siliencing the bowstring by actually taking measurements from where the string came OFF contact of the limbs and then placing siliecers either at 1/3rd distances for noisy bows or 1/4th distance for less noisy bows.

The field testers found "huge" results. The bows I personally shoot are so quiet that you could put siliencers nearly anywhere and the bow would be quiet...but it was interesting still.

lee, a stickbow can be played like an african 'diddley bow' - a stick and string, braced like an archery bow, and by varying the string's tensile strength by pushing or pulling one end of the bow whilst the other end is on a hard surface, variations of the plucked string's pitch can be achieved.  one of the first instruments man created, and it was obviously an early cave dweller's hunting bow.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

when compared to higher count strand strings of the same fiber, lsc strings are gonna be lighter (faster?), quieter (higher pitch), and have a different "feel" upon release.

does lower string weight contribute to faster arrow speeds?  probably, but even if 5 or more fps were added (very very doubtful, perhaps more like 1 to 3 fps at the max for the average 45-60# stickbow) that's not gonna matter much at the distances most folks kill critters.  no, speed doesn't kill - well placed sharp broadheads do.

is a "quieter" bow string beneficial to hunting?  well sure, but what is "quiet"?  imo, skinny strings produce higher pitched tones at lower volumes than fatter strings, for the same given bow and brace height.  our human ears (and hands, bodies) perceive the louder low notes far better than the less volume high notes. so the skinny strings appear quieter.  what does that mean to the game we hunt?

what "different feel" on release?  i can only speak from my observations shooting and comparing a variety of same fiber lsc 8 strand strings to 14 strand strings - there's a better "stability" to the feel of the release with a smaller diameter bowstring.  from the time the string slips off the bowhand fingers to the arrow clearing the riser, the bow and overall shot "feels better".  dunno how to put it in any other words.

Rob, I for one appreciate the objectivity.  

Other than your comments, there seems to be a line in the sand, with one side relying on perception;  the other relying on controlled test results.  Pretty interesting to me.

A test can't tell you what you do or don't prefer, but it can sure eliminate a lot of smoke and mirrors.

On the noise, folks are going to believe their own ears--can't say that I wouldn't either, although a decimeter will prove you can't always believe what you hear.  I've about decided that bow noise doesn't make much difference, as long as it doesn't sound like a car door slamming--the deer around here will jump at the sound of a mouse fart.....but I still like a quiet bow.  I still get a kick out of shooting at tournaments and having people comment "man your bow is quiet!"  

It's amazing that today we need so many things to make our bows shoot, when the likes of Fred Bear, Ben Pearson, Bill Negley, etc. got by with ropes for strings, made from polyester or linen or whatever, with little to no silencers on them.  Guess nobody told them they'd never kill anything with those set-ups.    :knothead:

Ya Rob...I'm not much into music myself and am pretty ignorant on that subject, as I like the sound of silience...but I did find that musician's tallents interesting.

Life sciences, dogs, and archery...these are things I know rather well...but music...nope. Never studied such. Give me quiet. Its amazing I like kids and dogs, huh? LOL.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
not that ANY of the following matters other than for curiosity's sake ...

a guitar that's concert tuned to A-440 pitch using .011 to .048 gauge strings will have the high .011 "E" string at about 19.6# tensile strength and the low .048 "E" string at about 21.3# tensile strength and 2 octaves lower in pitch.

if you increase the tension on the high "E" string 1.7#, to the same tensile strength as the low "E" string, the note produced by the smaller string is higher in pitch (the note goes from "E" to perhaps "F#" or "G").

i think that best simulates what happens with a "skinny" bowstring - the skinny string tension remains the same as with a "fat" string, assuming the limbs are the same and the same brace height is achieved, and that will create a higher note on that skinny string.  

so why does the skinny string sound quieter than the fatter string?  

my thinking is that the deeper resonant tone, with more pronounced volume, of the fat bowstring is, like with stringed instruments, is easier to perceive, easier for the human ear and body to pickup.    

the skinny string will have a higher pitch, but with lower volume and so harder to hear and/or perceive.  this is the exact same for stringed instruments.  ask me how i know this.      ;)  

Huh.

Rob is right, I am wrong.  Now I really have no idea why the skinnier string is quieter.  Maybe the higher pitch is more affected by the silencer materials we use?  I've never tested skinny vs. heavy without silencers.

like i said - deeper, more resonant and louder tones are easier to hear and feel than higher, less resonant and quieter tones.  this is one reason why you hear that deep boom box kinda bass tone coming from that close windowed car loaded with kids driving by ya, and almost no treble tone.  

how all of this fits in with how critters react to a discharged stickbow is beyond me.  since no arrow is gonna pass by the speed of sound, deer will hear the bowstring vibrate (as amplified by the limbs and riser) and the arrow (feathers) whoosh.  does a louder and lower tone make them more wary than a softer and higher tone?

Last winter when the weather was bad I spent the better part of two days playing with various strings and my chronograph in my basement. Originally, it was a no brainer.  The skinny string with less strands has to be faster then the fatter string. I used 6, 8 & 14 strand strings and played around with them off of four different bows, some with carbon limbs and some with glass/wood limbs. I was shooting 10 shot averages using a clicker for consistency. I was surprised to find that when using the same bow and same brace height, I was getting the same arrow speed from each of the strings. Usually not even a 1 F.P.S. difference. Shooting in my basement, bow noise was of course very obvious.  I didn't find that the skinny strings were any quieter, they just had a "different" sound to them. For me, it was an easy decision. The skinny strings gave me no noticeable improvement over my 14 strand strings. I shoot 3-D's at least twice a month throughout the summer, groundhog hunt and bowfish as well. I am fortunate enough to be able to bowhunt about three days a week from the first of October until the end of January and I always put on a fresh string at the beginning of bow season and always have a spare in my pack. I just like the little extra insurance those 6-8 strands offer me when dragging my bows through brush, briars and other obstacles. I wax my strings often but it is still pretty scary how sad they look sometimes after a night time trail and drag job on a deer.

QuoteOriginally, it was a no brainer. The skinny string with less strands has to be faster then the fatter string.

That is the common mis-perception.  The problem is the other variables are ignored--folks get tunnel vision on nothing but the string, and have it set in their heads that skinny is faster, period.  It doesn't matter what the chronograph says.

What most folk miss here is the string weight is only a small part of the equation.  It's still pushing the same amount of resistance with the limbs and arrow.  Compared to those, a few grains of string weight is practically nothing.  Arrows are going to average between 400-600 grains, some much heavier.  Compare that to the 20 or so grains of string weight you saved, without even considering the resistance of the limbs, and it's easier to understand why you saw no difference in speed.  And that's only talking about two variables--there are more, but no sense in over-complicating it.
 

Like someone said, "an open mind is a wonderful thing".  Can't have an open mind when your mind is already made up before the first arrow leaves the string, or when you choose to ignore the facts of the matter in favor of perception.

Again though, if you like it, shoot it.  As gets noted from time to time, this is a very mental sport.  

I just like to keep the facts separated from perceptions and opinions, at least on topics where I know the difference.

Thanks Rob for the factual info, I knew someone had to have a music background around here. It's basic physics, and I assume that's why the higher pitch strings on a guitar are thinner.  

But, this is only string noise.  There maybe bow noise on top of this, and that maybe why some have different results.  The only other thing I can think of is stretch (actually elastic deformation) at the end of the shot.  Skinny strings will stretch more than thick, thus absorbing more of the energy once the bow returns to brace.  This energy is responsible for the sound.  It is a combination of string and bow vibration.

That's why I used 452x, it doesn't stretch so in theory it should perform better than D97, but maybe louder.  You can tell the string vibration differences by just plucking the string, and that's going to be the same for any string material of equal thickness.  No doubt the skinny string is going to have a higher pitch, but it maybe masked by bow noise.  Anyone have a sound meter?

I'd be curious to see the results of decimeter testing also.  I know my hearing isn't the greatest, and can't be trusted--I have high-frequency hearing loss.  I've seen some test results, but don't remember the specifics.  As best I recall though, they gave me no reason to change my string preferance.

On a side note, I just got off the phone with a customer in CO.  He was telling me how he'd broken two strings (not lsc strings either) just before his season started last year.  Just got a bit careless with a sharp broadhead.  Stuff happens.

chad, consistent "perception" is very valid personal reality.  

the good luthiers rely far more on their eyes, hands and ears than a digital caliper and strobe tuner.  ;)

i don't need a decibel meter to tell me if a sound is loud or soft, bass or treble.  even my old rock-concert-worn ears can detect those differences.  

again, i don't shoot skinny strings for speed, i just like the shot "feel".  i also like my perception of shot noise, or lack of such, with my longbows.  dunno or care if that affects game - i suspect that critters can hear all dropped strings before the arrow clears the riser.

also, NO question that longbow and recurve noise factors are different to some degree - it's all about what the string touches.

LBR,

Matt Napper is the one that did the decibal tests and found little difference. It was about 10-11 years ago probably and you might be able to search for that post if you wanted to.

My deal is simpler. I just don't like noisy bows. I myself tested a Palmer recurve (that was noisy and didn't shoot too well for me) and a Habu recurve (that was kinda loud, but not too bad, but shot EXCELLENT)...and I never got either to be as quiet as I would have wanted. I tried 9 strands of 450+ and 450 premium, 12 strands of dyanflight, that "nitro excellerant" (junk), ff, and a few others...and felt the 450+ and D97 were the best...preferring the D97 the most as it was the strongest and fastest for a given overall diameter finished string.

Cool--although the results seem to have been the same, after some personal dealings with napper I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.  Whole different story there.

There was another sound test...maybe two, I was thinking of.  

No matter though.  People that want to know the facts will look for them, and people that don't will ignore them.

LBR -

That's a great quote for life in general!

Thanks....think I'll add it to my sig.

Quote... I shot the 55# bow next.  Two improvements were immediately obvious.  First, it was a now as quiet as the 50# bow.  Second, it now was as well-mannered (pleasant in the bow hand) as the 50# bow...  

Question: I have a Damon Howatt Hunter and have two different strings for it. One string the bow is as described above. The other string the bow is not nearly as nice to shoot. Clearly one string is a better string for the bow than the other.

So is the improvement on your bow because  the string is a "skinny" type or could it be that the original string was simply not the right one for that bow anyway. In other words the improvement is because of characteristics rather than type. Another standard string could also give the same improvement.
I am not questioning the skinny strings record of performance. Just whether all improvements are because of its type or if there are other reasons for the changes.

The more I mess with bows the more I understand that there are often several ways/combinations for achieving the characteristics you want to experience.  
A bow is like a person almost. Some like beer and some prefer wine. Its finding which beer is their favorite though that really counts...

Joshua

jhg,
I'm not real sure I understand the difference between "type" and "characteristics."  It would seem that skinny would be a characteristic.

Both bows are less than 5 months old and had the original Black Widow stings on them.  As for the louder 55# bow, I tried many combinations of brace height adjustment and silencers to reduce the noise level to where I got it.  When I got the 50# bow I realized it was much quieter once tuned as I had the 55# bow.  A simple replacement of strings to "skinny" with the same brace and silencers at the same location dramatically reduced the noise of both bows and they now appear about equal to my ears.  This is especially evident when I shoot next to my house where the sound bounces off the bricks and the overhang.

Maybe what you are saying is that if I would have switched the original strings on the bows the 55# would have been quiet and the 50# would have been louder due to some characteristic of the strings that is not obvious.  It's a possibility.

Sorry about the ambiguity.

Of my two different strings (neither could I tell you about in regards to materials) the one was just better suited to the bow than the other regardless of how I would try to tune the bow & string together. They just would not work together. The other string would and with a lot less fuss.

I was just saying you might be able to duplicate the reduction in noise and hand shock using another standard string too, that is made with different materials etc

Thanks for the info BTW. I certainly am going to try them on my next bow.

Joshua

There's a lot of variables to consider.  Knowing the string material would help.  It's uncommon, but now and then you'll run across a bow that "likes" one material over another.  'Course string contruction makes a difference also--not just strand count, but how well it's made.

Like most everything else in this sport, consistency will help.  For instance, if your bow is "shocky" now and then, it's not the bow or the string--you aren't being consistent.  Changing something may make it feel better, but you aren't fixing the problem, but rather hiding it.

I know this is subjective but the light bow shot with a 'thump' and the heavy with a much louder 'thunkkk' and now they both go 'whiish'.  I shot them twice today and they are really shooting sweet with the skinny strings.  Hope you have good results if you give them a try.

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
Like most everything else in this sport, consistency will help.  For instance, if your bow is "shocky" now and then, it's not the bow or the string--you aren't being consistent.  Changing something may make it feel better, but you aren't fixing the problem, but rather hiding it.

I agree 100%!  The hand shock I'd feel periodically was from inconsistent form on my part.  I don't think it hides the inconsistency as I'm still aware when I do something wrong - I just don't suffer from the twanged bow hand now.