Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: bttsj1 on November 19, 2010, 10:18:00 AM
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To make a long story short, I shot a huge public land buck yesterday. 15yds, shot slightly quartering to me. The hit was a little high. I had 3.5" of penetration and the brass insert broke where it neck downs and touches the shaft There was no bone smacking sound, he turned and ran.
Basicaly I sat there sick and disgusted with myself. The shot didn't go exacty where I wanted but I never considered the insert breaking.
Now I'm second guessing everything. Any suggestions on a strong setup. Thanks
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Foot your carbons with aluminum, makes a very strong arrow.
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use a collar on the point end of ur arrow... it will not break or mushroom out
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Steel insert or just use wood shafts.
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i second (third) the sugestion with a footing.
My arrows were already tough, but with my backstop on my indoor training range i had some mushroom or breaking and also inserts breaking (though mine were alu). I footed them with alu shaft 1,5" long, didnt affect the spine but now they are bomb proof!
Just for testing i took an arrow and shot it against the concrete wall from 15 yards 4 times in a row with 57#, i lost three nocks, that was all.
To make even the insert stronger you could file the insert collar down till the footing also pushes over the insert till it touches the point, then glue it with epoxy.
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Are there any tutorials on this?
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I had this very same thing happen on a doe this year. The shot was right at the heart but unfortunately I hit a leg bone or something. When she spun it caught the nock end of the arrow on a tree and the force snapped the brass insert about half way down. It also snapped the steel broadhead adapter as well.
Left me confused and concerned for the setup but I switched broadheads and kept on trucking. Still waiting to see how this will help.
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That truly stinks.
Wood may be crude but it's proven. I fly large R/C models (chainsaw engines) and many of us use wood props because they are lighter and stiffer than most modern composite props.
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Collars on carbon arrows toughen an arrow on a direct impact only. Angled hits kill collared arrows as easily as non collared arrows. I have lost plenty of them to rocks at 3D shoots. They all break right behind the collar. Your hit must have impacted bone at an angle to break that insert.
The real answer here is to wait until you have a broadside or going away shot. Angled to you shots are always risky. Sorry you lost the buck. It is always rough when you wound and can't recover an animal.
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Originally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
Collars on carbon arrows toughen an arrow on a direct impact only. Angled hits kill collared arrows as easily as non collared arrows. I have lost plenty of them to rocks at 3D shoots. They all break right behind the collar. Your hit must have impacted bone at an angle to break that insert.
The real answer here is to wait until you have a broadside or going away shot. Angled to you shots are always risky. Sorry you lost the buck. It is always rough when you wound and can't recover an animal.
Here is your answer. Your problem wasn't the arrow or the insert, it was the shot angle. The angled impact is much harder on an arrow than a direct impact.
Another thing to remember is that a 3.5" penetration from a broadside shot could be fatal. However, depending on the severity of the angle, a 3.5" penetration on a quartering animal(quartering to or away) could be little more than a nasty cut.
People feel differently about it, but most people here would never take a quartering to shot simply because of the shoulder.
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Very well said Buckeye....I am in agreement 100%
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This one reason why a quartering-toward shot is not a good choice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G14Bbx5NAuk
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Another thing is assuming your bow is tuned properly and you had good arrow flight when a deer is shot at sometimes in their effort to flee and as they twist or dip their muscles and bones can pinch a perfectly flying shaft cutting way down on penetration. The more arrow weight you have when this occurs the better.
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Originally posted by bttsj1:
Basicaly I sat there sick and disgusted with myself. The shot didn't go exacty where I wanted but I never considered the insert breaking
Sorry, but it sounds like the problem is not with your arrow setup...
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Just say "NO" to quartering towards you shots.
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That's one of the really low percentage shots and shouldn't be taken. Not arrow's fault, user error.
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What Buckeye said.
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Some good advice given, so now go on back out there and learn from it. Good luck!
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Awhile back there was a great thread about internal footing carbon arrows with about 7 inch wood dowels that handled angled impacts. Info by Ol Adcock/Ashby I think. I'll try to find the link. Help me out guys if you remember the thread.
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Did the same thing with the same result on a big sika stag this year. Knew the shot was a bad angle but had come to full draw expecting it to keep coming. It stopped at eight yards and I talked myself into thinking I could slip it in front of the shoulder as it was angled towards me. It looked so close. I am ashamed I took the shot. Square hit on the shoulder. Snapped the insert in half. Stag shrugged it off like a mosquitoes bite.
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not tryin to be hard on you but you really need to get a good ethical shot or let em walk.we all get excited and lose our common sense sometimes.i've done it a few times,got lucky and found the elk but was very ashamed of myself for not waiting a few seconds more.i speak from experience trust me on that one.worst one was a 5x5 bull that i ended up tracking at least a mile before i finally found him bedded and put another arrow in him.i beat myself up good that day.
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As others have said, that is not a good angle for a shot. But to address the arrow situation, the best solution I have found for an arrow that will maintain its structural integrity during most impacts is an Arrow Dynamics Hammerhead or Hammerhead Lite with a 100 grain brass insert and an aluminum collar that have been glued in with marine grade, slow-set, high-strength epoxy. I have never had any impact from any angle of shot cause one of those arrows to break. The fact that the arrow does not break does not mean that you will get sufficient penetration to kill the animal if you strike heavy bone or other barriers to penetration, but at least you are maximizing your chances of a kill when you take a good shot and just hit something you didn't expect.
Allan
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I'm in aggreement with the bad shot angle. No matter how big the buck is, a fella wants a good broadside or slighty quartering away shot. No problem with the arrow! Jason
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The brass insert and threaded broadhead are much stronger than the shaft itself. I'm shure that its breaking didn't impede penetration, nor will any woody or aluminum be able to withstand the type of force it took to break that insert.
If that set up failed, you can expect anything else to be even more inadequate.
BigJim
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I agree on shot angle,my son shot one quatering to,doe,we tracked for 250 yards,found deer with arrow just thru leg/shouder bone and into top of heart barely...about 6"penetration.He learned a good lesson.He was lucky that time.
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http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=070146#000000
2-2009 THE PERFECT ARROW This thread really discusses building an arrow that can handle angled impacts. Also review Ashby reports for great writing on angled impacts. Hope this helps.
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I know the angle was wrong. Is a quartering away angle wrong? No, but its an agled shot. I never thought that the brass insert was the weakest link in my setup. Oh, besides the shooter himself.
The angle was very slight & I was on the ground. I believe that I would have had more penetration if the insert hadn't broken & the hit would have been fatal. Got to build a stronger setup. Shooting this setup is just as "unethical" as taking angled shots.
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How do you know that the insert broke on contact? You recovered the arrow but not the buck. If the broadhead is stuck in the bone and the arrow is struck from the side, it would be much more likely to break rather than breaking while driving straight forward or even glancing forward.
I have driven field tips, and broadheads into trees and off rocks. I have bent the threaded ends of points all with arrows sporting brass inserts by bows with draw weight no less than 82lbs and have never had a brass insert fail. Now, I never came in from the side and tried to break the insert sideways while it was stuck in a tree or the like.
Not everything may be as it seams.
Just a thought, Bigjim
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1/4ing shots to you are always tough. 15 yards should have been a piece of cake, but that may have been the problem. it was so close that you didn't pay quite the attention to the shot that you should have. When you say you went "a little high" I wonder if you hit the neck bone or perhaps the top of the spine. Shoulder blades even on big bucks are rather soft compared to neck back or leg bones. With only 3.5" of penetration, i question that you killed him. I suspect that two animals leaned a lesson in the woods that day. Keep the same set up and hope you get another chance. I have nev
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How do you know the arrow broke while driving and not after stopping?
Angled shots all the same? Cmon man, don't let your upset be placed anywhere other than where it needs to be.
If you want to play that lack of logic game, of demonizing all angled shots to make yourself feel better, buy a rifle.
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It comes down to shot angle.
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It also involves short range shooting. Animals that I have shot at at close range get startled at the shot and duck. If they are further away they will more likely look in the direction of the sound of the shot before they take flight. I bet on this shot the deer was moving when the arrow struck and my best guess is you hit bone pretty solidly and when the deer finally got its feet under him that whole insert and broadhead had so much tourque on it and it couldn't take the forces put on it. I can't imagine an insert breaking. I've shot them into basement walls with out damage. I have had broadhead adapters break, however, which is a whole different thing. Do you have a pic of what was left of the arrow? It might give us a better understanding of what happened.
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Dang Texas deer duck and spin on everyshot. What looks like a center lung hit often is a broken back or complete miss. If you hit vertibra and not spine it's not good.
I had this happen with wood shafts on a bear in Saskatchwan. Arrow hit a rib on the way in and snapped behind the broadhead. Last time I used Chundoo.
Mike