I was playing with my Chrony this morning and decided to compare my Martin Hunter recurve with my Habu Viperkahn w/longbow limbs. Both are 62" long and 50@28. The Martin has a B50 string and the Habu has a 12 strand Astroflite string. Both have string silencers. I shot with a tab, 15 shots per arrow wt per bow.
470 gr spruce...Martin 172 fps Habu 174 fps
586 gr POC......Martin 159 fps Habu 157 fps
Looks like the 13 year old $400 Martin holds its own with the new-this-year $1900 Habu. :eek: I am using the draw weights listed on the bows...don't have a scale.
Martin Hunters have always had a strong following. Speeds aside do you like shooting one more than the other?
Hi Bjorn,
The Habu is quieter than the Martin, but only when I put a B55 string on it. Next I'll have to see how much difference that makes. I really love shooting the Habu. The grip fits my hand a bit better than the Martin.
I'll always have the Martin, though, since it was a gift from my wife.
most traditional bows do not vary widely in fps regardless of manufacture. What you get with a higher end bow is typically a closer attention to detail, more attractive woods, smoothness of draw, and dead in hand. However they all kill just the same. Like a hyundai and a cadillac. Both will get ya there. One will make you say " Oh THIS is nice!"
That's where I am with the Habu, Kyle. It's got a macassar ebony riser and lams...very dark and very pleasing to the eyes. It draws more smoothly than does the Martin and is quieter. Were I unable to afford the Habu, then the Martin would serve just as well...other than it is a one-piece, so it would be a pain to travel with.
Who ever said custom bows are necessarily better performing than factory? Almost all the factory names: Bear, Pearson, Hoyt, Wing, Howatt, York, Widow, Martin . . . started as custom bowyers. The factories also have more resources for test and research.
I've seen two recurves fold up - one was an old and tired Bear with an ape drawing to over 31" and and one was a new custom.
Point well taken, Stumpkiller. However, FWIW, the triple carbon Habu's are billed as performing in the top 1%. Of course, that's the bowyer's claim. He sure makes a nice bow, though!! The Habu is either way smoother to draw, or one of them is not 50@28. The Martin is noticeably harder to draw, whatever that means.
andy, that "harder to draw" is called stacking. Very typical of production bows.
Soooo, the opposite of stacking is smooth draws? To me, that is worth extra $$, but not sure if it's worth $1400 extra! :knothead:
I've always been a Martin hunter fan myself. Of all the mass produced bows, I like it best. Mass produced, but still darn nice to look at!
QuoteOriginally posted by Andy Cooper:
Soooo, the opposite of stacking is smooth draws? To me, that is worth extra $$, but not sure if it's worth $1400 extra! :knothead:
Nah. Long risers tend towards accuracy and stability and short risers (long limbs) are smoother. Or so the legend says . . .
Watch people draw various recurves. Some open like flowers and the tips uncurl beautifully. Others are fairly static. You can design a short bow that will have a 45" draw (there is one that shows that in their magazine ads). Slice your fingers off but it will do it.
Ideally, a recurve that stacks right at, but not before, your draw length is perfect. It's like a built in clicker.
But buying a production bow is like buying a suit off the rack. It may fit several perfectly, some well enough and many not at all. On the other hand, if you buy a "custom" bow that is built before your order came in it is still a production bow . . .but made with better (hopefully) materials and hopefully with similar or better care.
When Howatt was making bows for Martin they were very much handmade one at a time. But made to set standards. So, just what is a custom bow? Did someone measure your grip, arm length, finger diameter? Or did you just get pretty wood?
Sixby's building me a take-down. Sent him a couple of sketches of the grip and a hand tracing. The other 'customs' I've had were pretty wood. Nuttin' wrong with pretty wood, but I'm really looking forward to this Eaglewing...it'll have pretty wood and a grip to my specs!
I have two Martin Hunters and an Damon Howatt Hunter - I've never noticed that they stack out to 30". In fact, I've found them to be very smooth drawing bows. However, they are known to draw more than they are labeled. For example, my Hunter that is labeled as #50 actually scales #53 at 28".
That being said, a true custom bow - made to your specs, and made to fit your hand, is just going to feel "right"
HMMM,
I've found my Vyperkahn shoots as fast as or faster than my other bows that are 5-10 pounds heavier in draw weight.I get in the 180's fps w/ a 505gr arro out of a 60lbs @ 27'' Vyperkahn
QuoteOriginally posted by overbo:
HMMM,
I've found my Vyperkahn shoots as fast as or faster than my other bows that are 5-10 pounds heavier in draw weight.I get in the 180's fps w/ a 505gr arro out of a 60lbs @ 27'' Vyperkahn
Not to start something, but I have had bows that shoot a 505 grain arrow almost 190 and they were only 53@28.
Interesting findings Andy, thanks for sharing them. I have always heard the Martin hunters were good bows all around.
QuoteOriginally posted by KyleAllen:
What you get with a higher end bow is typically... smoothness of draw, and dead in hand. However they all kill just the same. Like a hyundai and a cadillac. Both will get ya there. One will make you say " Oh THIS is nice!"
Sorry, but after shooting a LOT of bows, including high end customs and good production mades like a Damon Howatt Hunter, I think you are over-reaching to suggest the custom bows are by default any smoother than the better designed production bows. (I'll let the Bear Super-K crowd chime in on their own) Of course there is usually no comparison appearance wise (usually, not always!) but believe me, custom bows can be something other than smooth drawing, with plenty of shock too.
There are well designed bows. Or not. Regardless of where they came from. Period.
Great bows come from production facilities and they come out of garages. It matters little as long as the design pieces are all in place.
Joshua
About 10 days ago I was pretty intent on buying a Habu. Then I discovered they don't make a takedown recurve. I suppose the one on their site that looks like a recurve is a hybrid? It is difficult to tell from the photo. Frankly, I was relieved because this is a very salty bow. I even went so far as to contact the folks at Habu to see about demo bows. They don't have any.
FPS is only one small measurement of a bow's performance. If you're going to reduce a bow to speed you're in for a lot of disappointment.
My Habu is as nice a bow fit and finish and highly beautiful woods as any I have ever had. Just plain beautiful. shoots great to.
For $1900 the bow oughta gut, skin, and butcher the deer for you. JMO.
Custom bows.....pretty, but to claim they outperform all production bows would be a stretch. And how many bows do you make before your production. I have made 8 bows. Low production, but production. As far as fps go mine shoot fast as most others. I add carbon to the limbs which does give a few more fps and makes them fill stiffer at the beginning of the draw. After building a few bows I realize that a $2000 custom and a $300 samick are not that far apart. And material cost is similar. Chevy or cadilac it's personal preference. I don't mind being seen in a pinto myself.
I'll drive the pinto too Red, but cover it in a woodlad camo limbskinz!
QuoteOriginally posted by Mr.Magoo:
FPS is only one small measurement of a bow's performance. If you're going to reduce a bow to speed you're in for a lot of disappointment.
Could not agree more. I got caught up in that some years back with a 60# Dan Quillion Patriot. It was certainly well made and blisteringly fast, like 220 fps with hunting arrows, but not at all pleasant to shoot and very loud. I draw 30" and it was huffing 68# by then . . . and felt like 90#. At the time I was shooting a longbow of 60#@28" as my primary. It was my one and only takedown recurve and I sold it to a club member who lusted after it, and last I knew he was still loving it. It was just not the bow for me.
I actually think I disliked the fact I couldn't see the arrow, even though I don't consciously look for them in flight.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mr.Magoo:
FPS is only one small measurement of a bow's performance. If you're going to reduce a bow to speed you're in for a lot of disappointment. [/b]
I agree, but still think the results are interesting. Everything else is, to me, rather subjective, while velocity is measureable. I've hunted for years without knowing the velocity of my arrows and haven't been hampered or otherwise bothered about it. Like I said in the OP, I was playing... :D
I am glad martin is still in the bow buisness.
They make a outstanding bow any one new to our thing can get a bow resonable and no wait.Newcomers just arent going to wait a year to get a bow made for them just to try our sport.
jhg, certainly there will be production bows that some prefer over custom bows. Just because a bow is made by a bowyer not a factory does not make it better by any means. However of the reputable custom bows i have shot, there is no comparison as far as shoot-ability.
Fair enough.
Joshua
I'm glad Martin is still in business, too. Even though my tastes run to the customs, I'll always have my Hunter. I was rather impressed that it kept up, velocity-wise, with the more expensive custom. And I agree that companies like Bear and Martin make entry into our sport more immediate and less financially painful...even though we all know it will turn into a full-blown addiction!
(Besides, it was a gift from my wife!! :bigsmyl: )
Opinion Only: :archer2:
The best production bows ever built are Damon Howatts.I've seen them smoke the biggest names in the business speed wise and the older models are about a beautiful as a bow can get. When I say the best I mean all around, Speed, Stability, accuracy, The design of the Howatts is second to none. Long risers, stiff tips and short working area but not overloading the limb. they are just great bows. Take an old Hunter or even a Ventura or Monterray and put some phenolic on the tips and a light ff string and watch out. One thing though . A lot of them are heavier than the poundage writtne on them. some quite a bit. God bless you all and Andy I will get you some pics real quick. I have your riser through all the first layups. Steve
I have to agree with Sixby. I have 4 Howatt Hunters and a Monterey built on the same form. I put phenolic tips and a D-97 string on the Monterey. After making this change I would put it up performance wise with anything out there in a 62" 49# bow. I really like the riser grips on the 1960's Howatts.
I owned a Habu which was a nice bow with outstanding workmanship but choosing between the 2, I would keep the Monterey every time.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
God bless you all and Andy I will get you some pics real quick. I have your riser through all the first layups. Steve
Thanks, Steve. I'm feeling kinda like Pavlov's dog about now! (http://5loaves2fishes.net/forum/images/smilies/lickinglips.gif) :D
Andy I took pics this am. When I can get Marcy to size and post them I will do something I have never done. I will post up a pic of a half finished riser and you all can see the difference when it is finished. This is really going to be a nice one. God Bless you all, Steve
After shooting the Habu with B55, 9 strand Astroflite, and 12 strand Astroflite strings, I've come to the conclusion that my release is not clean & consistent enough to accurately determine a significant difference...other than the B55 is super quiet.
I've pretty much noticed the same thing that overbow spoke of. I'm shooting a 46lb. Viperkhan with longbow limbs that is shooting 8 feet per second faster than a 55lb recurve of another make. Of course I don't care at all about arrow speed. I just like habu bows alot. Can't wait for my new one to get here.
I think you can get a great bow from any custom or production at a given time or a so so bow as well. I have Saluki, Hills, Bears, Brownings, and a SelwayII Little Shooter all good and most are fast enough, but the Little shooter leaps out in front all the way around. I have had a couple of Martin longbows that were in the so so class. I have never shoot a Martin recurve but I believe that is where they shine. 1400 more for the Habu? I don't think so, but maybe if I shoot one I mite change my mind.
I use a list of 15 charactersitics that I've determined essential in selecting a bow to try. 'Speed' is way down the list.
So far the Vyperkahn w/LB limbs is one, in my limited experience, that performs in reality as well as it looks on paper. In my book, this finding is remarkably evidential.
Note: My 25 year engineering career in dealing with aircraft engines revolved around conceptual and implementation of technical, intricate and precise processing improvements, which may involve millions of dollars. It was absolutely rare that a large project using very conservative figures ever initially matched what was on paper without considerable tweaking.
It is almost an anomaly when initial intricate plans and continuous precise coordination processing 'on paper' become reality.
When coming to the proper bow, we are all individuals and have our own specific requirements and expectations. Finding the 'one' that absolutely meets and/or exceeds our expectations is both the challenge and the prize.
Curious Andy have you checked the draw weight for each bow with a scale?