Hi folks,
Had a good sized NY buck come in this evening. Watched him chase a doe around the edge of a swamp until he left her and finally made his way under my stand. He was facing the tree I was in looking past it into a farm field. He didn't see any does so he turned and started walking broadside at maybe10 yards. I drew, anchored, picked a spot and he stepped behind some brush. I was just about to let down when he stepped out. I adjusted and let the arrow fly. Thwack and he starts running. My brother was in a tree 50 yards from me but can't see him. He turns to run away from me and I see the arrow hanging out from both sides of his chest. Perfect shot left/right but definitely high. We had good light for half an hour. No blood or arrow ever found. My friend Ed has a tracking dog that we will be taking in the morning, but rain tonight. The only other animal I have ever hut and lost was a doe with my recurve the first year I switched to trad. I have taken a turkey and two bears but deer hunting just has not worked out yet. I have missed animals cleanly but never injured one that did not come home. I know everyone says it happens to us all, but is making me doubt my choice of trad gear. Hopefully a happy ending and pictures of my first trad deer in the morning. Will try to get some sleep but....
Good luck bud :thumbsup:
Don't give up, you'll find him!
:pray:
Keep us updated.
Good Luck!!
GLENN
Was it a 2 blade? From the ground? One of the deer I shot last year, 2 blade/ground stand, was high double lung. But there was literally like 3 specks of blood about 20 yards from the shot and nothing more. Luckily I found it thru sweeps, and it only went like 100 yards, but the blood was beyond poor.
If you hit both lungs or liver, you'll almost certainly find the deer tomorrow. It's a good thing you didn't push it.
If you hit high shoulder/no lung, maybe you'll see him again chasing doe's.
Hope you find him buddy!
I double lunged my buck last year and got very minimal blood, but he made it less than 100 yards. The hit was with a two blade, a complete pass through, but centered the lungs up and down and almost front to back. The chest cavity was full! He was 91 steps from the shot.
If you got through the chest, even if it was high, he is dead! Don't blame the trad gear. Plenty of bucks are lost with wheels too. I found one last weekend, and I know the guys who hunt the area only use wheels.
I'd bet your buck isn't more than 100 yards from the shot. Good luck in the morning!
I was in a treestand but only about 10 feet up. I shoot 2 blade 225 grain Steelforce Phatheads. 53 lbs and same setup went right through my black beat. Just feeling sick right now. I work 12.5 hour night shifts and have to work wed- fri nights so hope I find him early. I will have the morning to look so keep your fingers crossed. Time for bed, but will update when I get home. Let's hope for some grip & grin shots.
As 30 stated, if you hit both lungs high, there may not be any decent blood, especially with a 2 blade, but the deer is dead. That's assuming the hit was exactly as you think and described. But by how you describe the hit, I bet you find him in 20 minutes. Keep us posted.
Hope you find him Dan, good luck!
remember to put some pictures up -youll find him.
-Tommy
Good luck. Hap
Hoping you find good news in the morning. I know what you mean about the doubts. I had a string where I hit two mule deer bucks in consecutive years...first one never found and second one had to finish him off. But the fact is I took shots I knew I could make and the first one, well, I have no idea what happened, slightly forward and dead center up and down. Only about eight inches of penetration, good blood for about 250 yards, then petered out and nothing! Second one was slightly uphill and hit right in the crease just about 4 inches above where I was staring and good penetration. After recovering (having to put another shot into) him I found out during autopsy that the first arrow struck a rib dead center and as far as I could tell deflected up the rib and did enter the chest cavity but just above the lungs and stuck into the off side of the buck just below the spine. For the record I was shooting very heavy arrows tipped with very high quality tanto tip single bevel heads that were scary sharp...Just goes to show, STUFF happens.
Like you I wondered about my choice of tackle and the whole ethics of it all, but came to the realization that sometimes it just happens and all you can do is the best that you can do. Shoot to the best of your abilities and take shots that you are confident in and it WILL come together for you!
Please keep us posted regardless of what the outcome may be in the morning.
Good luck to you Dan
Travis
Last year I found a dead elk with a compound arrow still in it,rotting in the mountains.That was the 3rd time it happened to me.This season I have killed a bear and a wild hog,pass through heart shots,with a 3 blade bh;no a single drop of blood was found but they were 40 and 70 yards from my spots.Good luck.
Good Luck!!
I work 12 hour nights now so I feel your pain.
I agree with everyone else, if its thru the lungs, even high, he's dead. If you got just the offside lung he'll be dead as well just took a little longer.
Huck
When you shoot through the lungs, because of the systemics, you can hit very little vasculature. Its a crap game. One small artery though and the animal will bleed internally. They get a hemathorax , have difficulty breathing and lay down. For this reason, I have been thinking about getting a dog for a couple of years. I think you will find your deer. I can't wait for the details.
good luck bro!!!!! i would think the dog would definitly improve chances even through all the rain. email me if i can help at all.
God luck, If you saw the arrow out both sides through the chest cavity the buck is dead. The rain will throw a wrench in the plan, but you will hopefully find him.
Best of luck!
Feel 4 you as the same happens to us all! If you don't sleep it means your heart is right! Exit hole high leaves minimum blood! There is a void above the lungs and below the spine which is no mans land! Friend shot one similiar and when found, the chest was full wiith NOTHING on the ground. I lost one several years back--shot by a gun later and we found the scars in and out. Deer recovered fine!
Keep in mind the spine drops lower than most folks think. I lost one a couple of years ago that skipped off the top of the spine, and I believe through the on-side shoulder blade. There was a loud crack at impact. After trailing this buck for 700 yards it was apparent that I was above the spine. and just through the back straps. If your arrow is good left to right and bellow the spine, you will get both lungs. There is no "void". I'm convinced these shots are all over the spine. You can be 6-7" below the top of the back and still be above the spine on a mature buck.
Anatomically Apex is correct....no void...and there is a major artery that runs under the spine. I hit that artery once and the deer was down in two leaps. Give me a multiblade head every time.
I hope you find the deer. Rain keeps me home...I've lost a couple due to over nite rain storms. Now I check weather.com every day and if heavy rain is in the forecast I am home.
Good luck Dan. Hang in there, and you will find him.
Guys, I am going to have to disagree with you, respectfully of course.
There is a void in the body cavity. It is not as large as some people will lead you to believe and is near impossible to hit from a tree, but it is there. My family owned a meat processing house for years. There have been hundreds of deer come in that have scar tissue from pass through shots from bows and guns that dont touch anything.
Bill is correct when he talks about the large artery below the spine, it is as big as your thumb. Right below that artery and above the lungs is nothing. It is only about 2" average hight, but it is there. Scar tissue don't lie.
God Bless,
Nathan
guys that void area info is a total myth. Check out the article in the most current deer and deer hunting issue written by an animal anatomy expert. Any arrow through the chest high or low is a killing shot Look at the photos of a dissected deers chest. I always felt that story was incorrect now an expert shows why.
good luck to you crotch horn , hope you find him
Best of luck to ya today...as long as the rain was not heavy a little water will not dissipate the scent line even the blood may be gone.
Keep us updated.
C
Check out the photo- deer hit off the ground. That arrow centers the spine. Anything above that is muscle. No void, just lots of room above the spine- contrary to what most people think.
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/anatomyspinehit.jpg)
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/webshotbroadside2.jpg)
LittleBigMan Says it correctly, there is no void betweeen lung and spine, like he said the proof is in Deer and Deer Huntings "VITAL INFOMRATION" it is a very good tutorial cd, I own it and it is well worth the 15 or 20 dollars. But if you hit the chest cavity high you got lung no matter what. Good Luck Man! you will find him!
Yet another- This is a 220# field dressed whitetail. That is a huge deer! Anyway- I marked out the anatomy with actual measurements. Notice the top line at 7" down is the spine. Below the spine is 6" then 2-3" for the sternum. That makes the vital area basically 7" x 7". I can cover that with my hand! (Note: The elbow/shoulder is hanging forward- on a live deer the elbow touches the entry wound. By the way- heart shot!)
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/broadsidedimensions.jpg)
I once shot a deer from the ground High but behind the shoulder. I thought "My first bowkill" after the shot. She jumped after I left the woods I camer back 4 hours later and trailed her. The blood looked good but dissipated fast after the bed where I jumped her.
I backed out and went back in the morning. I was able to sneak up on the doe with her fawn who were in someones yard eating. she was licking her shoulder where there was an obvious wound but seemed otherwise fine.
The shot placement looked good but a little high. There is no doubt in my mind she fully recovered.
I think you will find your deer though. This heavy rain doesnt help, but good luck and keep us posted.
Personally I think you will find your deer.
Crotch horn- sorry, got caught up in the discussion. Certainly- Good Luck on the track.
Dan in KS
Good luck finding your buck!
i have to respectfully disagree with there not being a void, lost to many deer hitting "no mans land"
Entrance wound:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/30coupe/buck09/IMG_1856.jpg)
Exit wound:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/30coupe/buck09/IMG_1853.jpg)
I wish I had taken pics of the lungs, but I can tell you the arrow was just about centered up and down on both lungs. It was just about centered front to back on the entrance side and about one rib ahead of that on the exit side.
I doubt there was more than a thimble full of blood between the arrow and where he finally crashed. He leaked out some once he was on his side, but the chest cavity was still pretty full of blood. He was 91 or 92 of my steps (well under a yard, my legs are short) from the spot of the hit. I'd guess it was around 80 yards. Fortunately, he was in an open pasture. I walked to my truck to shed some clothes and get my knife (I was in kind of a rush that morning and forgot it). On the way back, I could see him lying in the pasture.
If this is about where you hit your buck, he is dead!
Bad news guys. A couple of hours & nothing. No blood, arrow or deer. Dog never even got a read on him. Tons of rain last night made it worse. We both took swims in the swamp up to are armpits. That water was COLD!!! Not feeling very happy with myself right now. In over thirty years of hunting this is only my second deer that I know I killed and could not find. Both with trad gear. I guess I will hurt and sting for a while but I love it way to much to give up on it. A Big Thank You to all well wishers. Good luck to all and hopefully I will have better news next time.
Sorry to hear that. :(
My guess, then, is you were more forward than you thought and above the spine. If that's the case, you may get another chance at that buck. There's not much there but meat (flesh wound), so his chances of survival are pretty good. See KSDan's pictures. Just above where the arrow is in those shots means no vitals contacted. Keep your chin up! It is part of hunting, no matter what equipment you use.
Rain makes it tough bro, even with the best dog. An almost exact thing happened to me this year as well.
Sorry to hear that man.
Not wanting to get caught up in the "void, no void" debate...but if you read my post on page 1, the buck that I eventually recovered had a hole going in and coming out that was below the spine and the broadhead didn't touch the lungs, or the main artery for that matter. Not saying there is a large void in between the two...can say without a doubt it is possible to thread an arrow in there and come up empty. Is it a likely thing, I don't know, I hope not, but it happened to me. I hope that I was just very unlucky and won't soon repeat it!
Good luck to all
Travis
Sorry about your luck.
Some hits are other than where thought, without a body there's only a good guess to location (since it can't be verified).
Let the disappointment make you more determined.
I know many folks try to lessen the sting of such events, one I think is by the acceptance of the void myth.
If there is a void then Oprah is anorexic.
IMHO there is no debate: there is no void.
Missing the lungs and knicking them, that wound maybe being survivable in some instances...........two different things.
I don't want anyone to misinterpret the point I'm trying to get across. I'm not saying there is a void, just saying it's possible to enter the chest cavity and not hit lungs and make a killing shot...I wouldn't be so adament about this if I didn't do and see it first hand. Probably a fluke, but reality none the less.
Travis
My buddy had the exact same thing happen on Saturday. He hit a 6pt in perfect line, but high and go a full pass through. Found no blood, and no deer. He was using a compound.
It happens to everyone, not just when using trad gear. It's very disheartening, but the gear isn't to blame.
These deer are tough, he might make it.
House,
Lung tissue displacement and then blood vessel cut?
As for survivability.........many claim they have seen deer survive a high lung hit (did they later shoot the same deer in good health and examine for prior wound evidence?).
Many claim such survivability to be evidence of a void (but without proper autopsy I don't see how).
Can the lungs be knicked and such a wound heal?
Void (no lung hit) and lungs hit and repaired= two different things.
Just tossing it out there, without a body and a real autopsy (low light field evisceration observations aint it).
Got into it yrs ago on another trad forum, gun hit deal, medical guy made claims, poor data collection and bad assumptions.
Proved his claims unjustified (and boy did he get snippy).
Let the science tell you what happened, don't assume.
Without a body, one can only guess......and outside of such forums, probably ought to refrain from commentary.
I've heard enough "buckets of blood and no deer/void myth" stuff in the shops this year (same guys every year- you guys know the type..........big mouths, little brains........every shop has a couple such customers.....who hang around way too much :(
Hookeye-
I'm not speaking for anyone else or about what anyone else saw, thinks, feels, or knows! All I'm saying is what I personally saw and know to be true: I shot a mule deer. Arrow went in chest cavity, arrow went through chest cavity and through the offside slightly below the spine. I couldn't find any evidence of lung tissue dammage whatsoever. Yes I was in the field, not I didn't take the deer to an examining room. Yes, I had very good light. Is it possible there was something I didn't see...sure, but it had to be pretty darn small. Can a deer recover from x or y, I don't know?
I'm not making any "claims". I am just letting others know about an experience that I had with this sort of situation. Thought maybe others could possibly benefit from someone else's experience. Kinda thought thats what this site was all about.
No, I'm not a medical examiner, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :p
That's all I got. Good luck to all.
Travis
I didn't refute your experience.
I actually supported the possibility of your findings to be correct.
Crotch Horn,
Sorry man, it is a horrible feeling as anyone who has experienced it knows. If you are sure as you seem about your placement, don't totally give up. Go check the area for buzzards, and or crows in the air. Walk ever expanding grids, its amazing how far one can go. I have a friend that has spent weeks before finding one on a bad shot. Meats obviously shot, but it put closure on it for him.
I have had it happen to me only with compound gear. High angle, appeared to hit high shoulder and never recovered it. Went back for weeks, with no success, still haunted by that one.
As far as the void/ lung placement issue, here is the fact of the matter obvious to anyone who has gutted a deer and has any experience with anatomy/physiology. If indeed you puncture the thoracic cavity (aka anything anterior of the diaphram when you field dress a deer) you have created a tension pnuemothorax which = dead deer, period.
My experience has been that people "think" they see the shot placement but it is either not correct, or the angle or bone deflection caused the arrow to not actually penetrate the thoracic cavity. If indeed the thoracic cavity is punctured, the deer will not recover. I know that is not much solace to you however when you can't find your deer. Best of luck-
Sorry to hear this. I was hoping you had a better outcome (as we all were). Try not to get too down. Take care, and go get 'em again!
Sometimes the typed word can be hard to interpret, I apologize for the rant. Good luck to you Hookeye and to the rest of you!
Travis
I wonder if the lungs were in some degree of exhale and if so, if that allowed for the arrow to push them aside rather than cut them.
Hitting a "void" vs creating a kinda sorta one.
That kinda thing.
No doubt somebody somewhere will read what you wrote and declare that proof of a void (their lack of reading comprehension then fueling spin).
Certainly possible, and I certainly wasn't attempting to prove, or give fuel to, the "void existed" folks. Just an observation I made that very much surprized me.
Travis
Losing an animal sucks, but on the plus side........nothing in nature is wasted.
IMHO misplaced arrows and bullets can be more humane than other "natural" processes of demise (parasites, other injury, starvation).
I'm not saying shrug it off, am saying don't take it too hard.
I got lucky and killed a very large white-tail back in 1981. I say lucky because I had only seen the buck once and he came by the stand at only 7 yards the next time I hunted the stand --3 days later.
However, that big buck made me a "trophy hunter" for the next couple of years. I kept a diary and averaged hunting 63 days each of those years and passed up 110 bow-range opportunities including several PY-class deer. I didn't shoot an arrow during those 2 years.
My point is something I learned about bowhunting and what it means to me. I became numb to seeing deer, I wasn't excited about hunting, and hunting was feeling like a job. I realized that I was feeling this way because I didn't expect to get a shot because my standards were too high. I realized if no shot is to be taken I didn't get nervous or anxious because I knew the risk that I might mess up (miss or worse, wound a deer) was almost non-existant. Part of what makes hunting such a deep experience for me is the possibility that everything might not work out - there are no guarantees.
What happened to you is crummy and it happens to nearly every bowhunter eventually. This kind of thing reminds us that few things in hunting are slam dunks and that bad things can happen. It makes us appreciate those many more times when everything does work out the way we want them to.
Guys, thanks for the support. I know I killed the deer. Saw the arrow clearly while deer was running away. I will take the option of 1% survival to make me feel better. I know it is not the gear to blame but me the shooter. That is why it is hunting. As to a void or not, read deer & deer hunting and the facts speak for themselves. Is it possable to hit a deer and not hit vitals? Yes, if above the spine like stated or if your BH doesn't cut but pushes through.
We searched & did so hard. Crossed a stream up to our armpits here in upstate NY. Cold doesn't describe it. Will be back at it next week. I asked the farmer to ask the other farmers in the area to be on the lookout for him & if found I would like the rack. It looked like about a 100' buck which is big for our area.