i know these is a beating a dead horse :deadhorse: but what are your expeirences with both.i killed my first deer using a 2 blade and wasnt really impressed with the blood trail compared to a snuffer 150(note it was a heart shot down in 40 yds.)tell me your thoughts dont want a debate just your expeirences
:campfire: (couldn't find a popcorn eating graemlin)
I have killed a lot with both, havent seen much difference.
:coffee:
3 blad snuffer SS did better then 2 blad stinger with bleeder blades for me :archer:
sorry guys just no real expeirence with them and dont want to change my setup into the season just dont want too loose any game because of a poor blood trail
A poor blood trail can happen with either, and with a good shot too. Exactly as you said: "dont want to change my setup into the season" - your confidence with what you have is most important.
Believe in what you have, relax, and go hunt.
Nobody wants to loose an animal, but even in the best circumstances, it might happen.
One thing I like about 2 blades is that, at least in my case, it seems I have a better chance of poking through both sides of the deer. Also with a 2 blade head I can sneak that arrow right through that deers rib cage and they do not even know they were stuck with something. Until they fall over.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
:campfire: (couldn't find a popcorn eating graemlin)
(http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Food/eating-popcorn-03.gif)
I have had both and almost always have a better blood trail with the 3 blade. I will say shot placement is a difference maker as well. If you shoot from a elevated spot and can get a exit low opposite side you will probably have a better trail regardless of head used. :coffee:
As BobW put it a poor blood trail can occur with any head. I have killed numerous deer with 2, 3, and 4 blade heads. Without a doubt on average the 3 and 4 blade heads lead to more blood on the ground.
Scott
Have used razor sharp 2-blades only for 30+ years w/o problem & I'm right. My friend Mike Bolin is a very good hunter & uses razor sharp 3-blades for a good long time w/o problems & he's right. Let your confidence decide & keep 'em sharp. My highhorse ain't so high anymore.
If your shot is good then both arrows will provide a short blood trail, which is what we all strive for. However, sometimes arrows go astray and hit a little far back. Under those circumstances I'll opt for a three blade head which under most circumstance will leave a little more on the ground.
Where I live the deer hunting is in and around thickets and a good blood trail is huge in helping to locate the animal, even when a good shot is made. The area also has unlimited doe tags so I've been on a ton of blood trails. Maybe it's just my eyes but a three blade has always given me a better trail to follow. I can't comment on 4 blades just because I haven't used them.
Tim
All you have to do is follow a blood trail made by a 3 blade Wensel Woodsman and you have answered your own question.
Location, location, location! Put the arrow where it needs to be and I don't think you'll see any difference. Give me a particular bad shot scenario and I may prefer one over the other, but we never get the luxury of do-overs. Last week I killed a mature doe with a popular low-profile, 3 blade head. I wasn't at all happy after the shot. Complete pass-through, but too high (about 2/3rds of the way up the back) and too far back (just behind the last rib). The deer lay dead 75 yds. away when I immediately got down and still hunted straight to her. I've killed enough deer from this stand I knew where she would go, but I was surprised to recover this one. There's a "no-man's land" above the vitals and below the spine that deer usually recover from and I thought I was there. I back-trailed and found no blood other than where the deer lay. I never thought the lungs extended that far back, but I guess the 3-D's and diagrams are right. The largest buck I ever shot was with a two-blade and a shot I never intended to take, it was about 25 yds. and just outside my comfort zone. I was just going to draw and "count coup", but when I hit anchor the string just slipped through my fingers and hit right where I was looking. The deer was slightly quartering away and the arrow entered through the last rib just beside the spine and stopped in the off-side lung with no exit hole! I could see half the arrow sticking out of its back as it ran off and I was sick. That deer went over 300 yds, but from where it was standing, there was never a moment where I couldn't see blood trail. It looked like someone went down through the woods with a garden sprayer. Every time the deer exhaled it was coating the standing vegetation and leaves with a bright pink mist. How it went that far I have no idea. I probably didn't deserve to recover either of them, but I don't "look a gift deer in the mouth". My point is, I don't think if you swapped those two heads it would have made an iota's difference in either case!
I've taken several deer with both and found the narrow 2 blade like schultz hunters head goes thru so fast the deer doesn't even know they're shot and drop quickly with very sparse bloodtrail. The wide 2 blades like the Zwicky delta, ribtek 145's and the old deadheads leave pretty good trails but the best trails come from snuffers and woodsman's. Shot a lot of animals with the old bear razorhead and always had a pretty good trail also. The key with any is "sharp"
Properly sharpened, and with a good hit, most broadheads are going to get the job done. :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by BobW:
A poor blood trail can happen with either, and with a good shot too. Exactly as you said: "dont want to change my setup into the season" - your confidence with what you have is most important.
Believe in what you have, relax, and go hunt.
Nobody wants to loose an animal, but even in the best circumstances, it might happen.
I have to agree with above... had great results with both... what does change things is when that "Bad Shot" occurs and or hit bone..... I go with Ashby reports.... 3 blades do curl faster than most 2blades... thats why Im switching over to Grizzlys....
But as for the 2 vs 3... Ive had great bloodtrail with both on good heart/lung shots...
Only difference I see is a 2 blade that exits will leave more blood than a 3 that doesnt. Otherwise a 3 blade would cut more and bleed more if it exits as long as they are the same level of sharp. I like how the 2 blade stinger performs over the 3 blade snuffer but I am horrible at sharpening. Get to try my new KME tonight on some used stinger 2 blades and my new magnus vented 2 blades. Hope it is easy as it looks!
I personally like 6 bladed heads....six has always been my lucky number and its two times 3....your mileage may vary..depending..possibly
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab80/jnferguson/DSC00170.jpg)
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab80/jnferguson/DSC00169.jpg)
3 blade.
God Bless,
Nathan
Shoot`em through the ribs. It don`t really matter.RC
A lot will depend on if you get an exit hole... 2 holes to bleed out of or an exit hole from a treestand shot... that can make all the difference in the world.
I agree with RC. The pic I posted was one I just shot a week or two ago with Ms. Hope. I usually use a 4 blade Zwicky Delta or an Ace Super Express 2 blade. If you hit them right, either work well, if you hit them wrong, neither work well. Just the way it is.
God Bless,
Nathan
I've killed deer with 3-blade Snuffers and two blade Snuffers and 2 blade Magnus. Have had great blood trails with all of them. But, I've also had less than desirable penetration with the 3-blade Snuffers at times, even years ago when I shot more draw weight. Killed two deer in the last 2 years with 2-blade heads, shooting much lower draw weight, and had great blood trails with each one. Both deer dead and down within 50 yards. I know this info isn't conclusive but I'm sticking with two-bladed heads, as I have the most confidence in them. :)
"There's a "no-man's land" above the vitals and below the spine that deer usually recover from and I thought I was there." from Olddogrib
No offense meant to ya Rib- but this absolutely NOT TRUE! I'm tired or hearing/reading etc about the "void". It doesn't exist, never has- never will. The chest cavity lies in contact with the spine. When you gut one, the spine is clearly visable in the chest cavity. Above the spine- through the backstraps is "no mans land".
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh472/ishoot4thrills/11-09-09_2042.jpg)
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh472/ishoot4thrills/11-09-09_2043.jpg)
Two blade.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :campfire:
This year I am trying the simmons treeshark. It is a 2 blade but 2 inches wide. If that goes through there must be blood spilled. BILL
2 blades are half the price (or less) than a three blade head. I like my 6 packs
DRR324,
Everybody's entitled to their own opinion and I won't argue your anatomically correct description of the chest cavity. My question is would the lungs occupy that entire vertical area on a standing deer or do they sag somewhat? I know I've never recovered a deer shot in the forward upper quarter of its body when the spine/artery was missed, but blessedly that's been few. As the back straps lie on either side of the spine, I don't know if I buy that shot being missed high either other than a slight graze, but we can agree to disagree here. That's what's special about this site compare to some others.
:deadhorse:
QuoteOriginally posted by RC:
Shoot`em through the ribs. It don`t really matter.RC
ding ding -- we have a winner!
:deadhorse:
Four Blade Muzzy Phantoms! Price means nothing when you want a quick clean kill! :goldtooth:
Well since you asked for rral world experience, and not debate...without a doubt, in my experience, shot for shot,both being extremely sharp, my 3 blades have left more blood on the ground.
I'm talking 15 yrs. using 2 bl. Zwickey Eskimos/ and Deltas...compared to the last 10yrs. using WW, 160 Snuffers, and Terminators.
A big 'ol 160 Snuffer will empty a chest cavity very quick!
thanks guru thats what i want to hear
(couldn't find a popcorn eating graemlin) Thanks Terry & Zradix I needed a good chuckle this evening.
Olddogrib-the lungs don't sag at all. They occupy the entire space and are inflated/deflated by the diaphram muscle. Not sure of the correct medical term for it, but here is a medical description-
Pneumothorax: Air in the chest cavity equalizes the pressure in the chest cavity with the outside air and causes the lungs to collapse. This is usually caused by trauma or injury.
Any "hole" created in the skin layers (reaching the chest cavity) can cause this and break the "seal" the lungs have with the chest cavity.
On topic... I shoot 3 blade razorcaps.....
I'm a 2 blade guy, and believe that 3 blades will spill more blood all thinks being equal. You gotta consider the other stuff however-most important being power, placement, penetration and size of prey.
Honed and stropped Grizzly Broadhead, no exit wound, did not hit spine or the major artery below the spine. All blood is from top of both lungs only. Deer went only 15 yrds. Shot last week in Iowa...
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/KMEsharp/TomsPics004.jpg)
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/KMEsharp/TomsPics006.jpg)
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/KMEsharp/TomsPics005.jpg)
Ron
I shoot Magnus II two blade heads on deer and woodsmen or snuffers on turkeys where penetration is not an issue. I haven't had much luck with 3 blade heads on deer. Every time a 3 blade hits bone it stops = wounded deer. At least that has been my experience. I usually hunt in thick brush where the shots are close and I am able to get an exit better on steep downward angle shots with a two blade head.
I've had good blood with both and bad blood with both. However, when things have gone wrong for me, I believe more penetration would have made the difference.
Ron... Don't mean to be a smart ass, but was that buck shot with a 12# bow? Just curious.
I shot Bear Razorheads w/bleeder and Zwickey Delta 4 blades for years and at one point switched over to two blade Zwickey Deltas. Spent 4 or 5 years killin stuff with them and switched back to 4 bladers... by that time the Magnus I w/bleeder was available.
I'll shoot a two blade head into a critter in a heart beat. As has been said "they all get the job" done when razor sharp. That ain't even a question in my book.
I just find the quality of blood trail is "more dependable" for my tastes with the multi blade.
I should add that penetration isn't an issue for me. My 625 grain arrows flying at 180 fps. go right through most everything without problems.
If I was shooting less I might consider switching.
I shoot two blade heads exclusively.
I shoot a heavy bow and heavy arrows. If it weren`t for the vegetation, I can usually stand where my arrow is in the ground and see the deer laying there.
My arrows zip through, and the deer react very little. Often just a few jumps, and they stop to watch their backtrail.
I have never been able to get a re-sharpenable 3-blade as sharp as I want, but I did use Thunderheads for years when I shot a compound. When using the three blades, the deer reacted MUCH more, and always ran much farther than they do now... ALWAYS.
DRR324,
You may be right. The buck in Ron's pic (is that 2004 dated?) is identical shot placement to the doe I killed last week which I described as too high and far back. As I mentioned, that shot was a pass-through and the deer went approx. 75 yds, but I could find little blood other than where the deer lay. Any opinion on why that one looks like the "Texas chainsaw massacre"? Maybe on a lung shot it's an advantage it the arrow doesn't exit and does some secondary cutting, as well as keeps the entrance wound open. It does have that in common with the buck I shot. That wouldn't be my preferred shot location, but you can't argue with those results!
I would THINK that that shot did get that main artery. I shot a buck years ago with the same penetration with a 60 pound bow and snuffer and got little blood and NO deer after 2 days of searching. BILL
With watching this thread and the sharpening technique thread. I must say I have ALWAYS used a multi blade head for big game. I have had good and not so good blood and pentration. This year I am trying a very wide 2 blade razor honed head. I am hoping it will be the best of both worlds. One thing I will concur is with every animal I have shot they KNEW they were hit and most ran like nuts. BILL
This is definately one of those "what the heck happened"??? shots. I would normally agree with you about the major artery hit as well if I had only the photos to judge by but, I spent close to an hour on the phone with the hunter last night prior to posting this because I was perplexed as anyone as to the lack of penetration given the heavy arrow/broadhead combo being shot from a 50+ pound bow.
Here's why I don't believe the major artery beneath the spine was hit: The deer took at least 15 minutes to succumb. I've made that artery hit several times over the years myself and when the artery is cut the deer don't live 2 minutes...(ever in my experience). And here's why I don't think a direct spine hit was made either: The deer traveled 15 yards or so before going down, and every true spine shot I've ever seen or heard of resulted in the animal dropping in its tracks. Having had a bit more time to ponder this I'm begining to suspect that given that this buck survived for 15 minutes, perhaps only one lung was hit??? And it simply bled out over that course of time???... Don't know and unfortunately we'll never know for sure because the deer was rushed to the processer due to the hight temps on the day of the kill and a detailed necropcy was impossible. We don't even have pics from inside the body cavity which may have shed some light on exactly what happened here.
As for the lack of penetration, could it be that the BHD hit a rib very near the spine where the rib bones are much tougher? or could the arrow have hit a small twig and deflected slightly in flight causeing it to loose some of it's energy? or perhaps both? Again this is a wierd one for sure but we all know that weird things happen from time to time. I'm a honed and stropped BHD advocate for exactly the reason that the pictures show- greatly increased blood flow with little clotting but even I was amazed by these pictures.
For the record I know the hunter very well and can vouch for his credibility. The date on the camera is simply not set correctly. Here's a good example of how a screamin sharp BHD can make the difference when things don't go as planned... even when the circumstances seem to defy explaination.
One other thought on this... It apears that this particular animal bled "out" rather than internally. If you look at the amount of blood on the ground, that's similar to what you'd expect to see at the sight where the deer was field dressed. I didn't ask but with so much blood on the ground it's hard to believe that there could have been much left inside the body cavity???
Ron
I didn't get quite the penetration I wanted on this elk with my 3 blade and am thinking of switching :) Actually I shoot both. Life's too short to dance with ugly women or shoot one bow, one broadhead, or one arrow ;) It comes down to a 250 grain Woodsman Elite or a 2 Blade Aboyer Brown Bear for me. Both are deadly!
(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r296/wapiti792/WY10026.jpg)
The deer I have shot with Snuffers or Woodsman broadheads have left massive blood trails (short ones too). I've gotten complete penetration, but not always pass-throughs with these. :mad:
Last year I tried a Zwickey Delta two blade and got super penetration on a nice buck (pass through into the frozen ground). Shot centered the near side lung and came out just in front of the center on the far side. It was a 22-23 yard shot, so the trajectory was pretty flat. The buck left like a scalded cat but piled up 92 of my rather short steps from the shot. In those 92 steps I found less than a thimble full of blood! :knothead:
I shot a Turkey with a woodsman head last week.
I sliced both brest and split the brest bone.
The turkey went 30 yards. And 1hr laiter i had to finish it off with a head shot.
I like how the 3 blade heads fly. I have hunting buddys who use 2 blade heads and have helped them trak allot of deer and there two blade heads put some good blood on the ground to.
i shoot a 55# bow if i shot a bow less then 50# i'd use 2 blade heads.
After doing this for 59 years I have to say without any reservation that the most lethal broadhead I have ever used is a scary sharp 3 blade Razorcap. They have given me great blood trails and even on less than perfect hits have put deer down in 100 yards or less with lots of blood. I shot a moose with one 3 years ago and it took 3 steps and went down.
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Ron... Don't mean to be a smart ass, but was that buck shot with a 12# bow? Just curious.
Charlie,
Accoring to a thread on the TBM forum, the draw weight was mentioned as being "50+." The arrows were...
QuoteArrow: Carbon Express Rebel Hunter, 29 in., 100 grain brass inserts, 100 grain steel adapters, 200 grain Grizzly broadhead (KME sharpened), Total arrow weight 810 grains, EFOC at 25%
i agree with bone buster on the impact of a 2 blade head and its affect on deer is alot of times nil.. i actually had a doe go to pick up a acorn after i shot her, she fell with in 10 yds of the hit, i had managed to slip between ribs in and out, a quick in and out matters,as far as avoiding a panic run after the shot, i have shot zwickey deltas for a lot of years both 2 blade and 4 blade and really cant tell a diffrence in blood trails, no real world experience with 3 blades, just cant make myself switch from something that works,
I've had exceptional and not so exceptional blood trails with 2, 3 and 4 blade broadheads, there are more considerations than just the number of blades per head. That would be too easy. I never used to believe it, but extremely sharp does make a difference in the amount of blood flow. No less important is perfect shot placement and an exit wound as well ...this is so cliché but yet so true! This argument will outlive us all and has been discussed ad nausea on this site...but it is fun to debate!
Use the broadhead you like best and pay attention to all the other details as well. There is no one single "silver bullet". That's what keeps it interesting!
Best of luck!
Kris
I haven't noticed any difference when using a big two blade head like the muzzy phantoms. When using a smaller profile head like the 125gr grizzly the blood trails wern't as much.
I like the Magnus 2 blade 125 grain myself..but whatever suits your fancy..is what I would use. :dunno:
I have had both good and bad trails with 2 blade heads. Just killed one with a 3 blade the other day, the blood trail was awesome. It's only one "sample", but I'm impressed so far.
That is a strange scene with the arrow placement. The pooling on the deer is odd and seems to have depth in the photo. If the picture I see is correct that bright red blood would indicate oxygen rich blood. Oxygen rich blood would mean a artery was cut and based on the EBL, estimated blood loss I see it would be a major artery. I don't know of a major artery in that anatomical location. The flow looks almost lava like in that it appears to have pooled after the deer was down. The volume on the ground would have been a sign of massive hemorrhage. If the vertebral artery was hit the bleeding would be more internal and intercostal arteries are not sufficient in size to produce that blood loss that quick. It is strange,can't explain what I see. I am in surgery everyday and have not seen this type of bleeding and that includes trauma from gunshot wounds or trauma from accidents.
Oh well, here goes my 2 cents worth!!!...Since 1973 I have shot deer with 2,3,4 and 5 blade broadheads. I have gotten great bloodtrails with all of them. I have also gotten little to no bloodtrails with all of them. When I have gotten a passthru (at least the broadhead), I normally have enough blood to track the deer (assuming a vital area hit). The worst bloodtrails I have had normally occur when the broadhead doesn't exit. If I can obtain a passthru with a multiblade broadhead I have normally had more blood on the ground. I only shoot around 45 lbs. (at my drawlength) and mostly from treestands so it has been a challenge to find a multiblade broadhead that gives ME consistent passthrus. That being said, the best bloodtrail I ever had was with a file sharpened 2 blade Ace standard that didn't exit the body! Go figure!!!
Outside of shoulderblade or spine hits, I've always gotten passthroughs, prefer 3 bladed heads over 2 blade.
But with aging/injury, my # is less now.
Trying Stingers w bleeders this yr (used them in a compound a few yrs back).
Those pics were cool........hard running deer, or those that stay in one spot before expiring, can sure leave a lovely mess :)
Ok,my hypothesis on the Iowa buck. Can't tell if shot was from treestand or not. But, my take-
topside of right lung was hit, and from that high of a hole, the blood continues to pool in the cavity. If the buck still had the left lung working, and heart still pumping, this would lead to longer time for death. Death would occur upon the massive blood loss- but would take time. At the scene, like many mortally wounded- he staggered around as he lost his mental capability and thus the large blood spots. Once he finally fell over- the blood was forced from the entry wound. Not sure why the penetration was poor- but if it only travelled a very short distance- spinal nerves may have played a role in that. No medical experience, just 25 years of hunting and tracking....
David,
I think your explanation is very possible. I'm a honed edge guy because I believe that this type of edge produces increased blood flow and reduced clotting but even I was amazed by this particular case. So I sent the pics and story to a DR. friend of mine and this is what he said about it:
The extensive external bleeding is no mystery at all. Obviously there was no lung collapse, so relatively little thoracic space was available for internal pooling. The aortic artery carries a huge volume of blood (it splits at the hips, forming the 2 femoral arteries, and you know how fast a deer bleeds out if just one femoral artery is severed). Even when merely nicked the volume of blood loss from the aortic artery would be large and, with the lungs not collapsed, much of the blood flow would be forced out through the only outlet available; the entrance wound.
Now, that would certainly account for the massive external bleeding... As for the lack of penetration, I guess we'll never know for sure what caused that. Thanks for the input,
Ron
Sharpster, I am also an MD. I believe that explanation is correct. The aorta runs parallel to the spine and in a deer would be just below the spine. If the aorta blows out from an aneurysm or from a cut by a broadhead, there is massive bleeding. Due to the location, you might have caused spinal shock as well to cause the deer to go down so quickly. I believe this happened with my first deer with a recurve years ago. I shot a little high,and the buck dropped right on the spot but still had his head up, so I put another arrow into the chest.
I guess that is possible. I am looking at the shot and it was hit from the right side the vena cava runs up and down the right side of the spine and anterior to the spine and the aorta runs up and down the left side and anterior to the spine correct. The blood in the picture appears to be bright red which would be oxygen rich or arterial in nature. I just think a hit that high would have encountered the vena cava vs the aorta. I guess stranger things have happened. I have been in surgery and seen gunshot victims with multiple shots and minimal trauma and have seen single shot victims with massive trauma after deflecting off of bone.
I am not about to say the same thing an MD just said but being a low level EMT I have seen arterial bleeding and it is scary. That arra took that big artery under the spine period or he'd a traveled.
J
I like both 2 and 3 --------- either 160 grizzlies - or WWs. Thinking about doing the 160 Snuffers a try? I only shoot 55 of 62#s depending on which bow I grab coupled with the fact I am shooting 100 lb WTs if I am lucky.
J
Great thread! I was wondering about this very thing. Hopefully I can add my own info soon.
I'm slightly color-blind, so I need really good blood trails to be able to follow them. I get the best blood trails with big 3-blades.
I shot a deer about thirty years ago. I thought the hit was real poor. But it was high and took out the aorta along the spine. I couldn't believe the blood. To this day I have never had a blood trail that red. Gary
Looks fakey doesn't it, S.C. Hunter? :dunno:
I didn't read all the posts here, pretty long. I have used both 2 and 3 blade heads. Both make great blood trails if they are sharp and the hit is good. If you are tracking one drop of blood ever yard or some thing, well ya did some thing wrong. Other wise I doubt it matters. This is the hit site on a double lung with a 2 blade single bevel Tusker concord.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/jjeffer/bloodsign.jpg)
ive shot woodsman elite and silver flame 150, both good double lung hits, and didnt find a lot of difference in the blood trail. maybe slightly more sparse with the flame, but he went 100 yds compared to the 50 yds with a woodsman. i would say they both do the job with a solid shot, ill have to stick a few more deer to make my judgement :archer:
I truely love bloodtrails.
On a pass thru shot, on average, a 3 blade will produce a better blood trail than a 2 blade. That being said, a large 2 blade such as the Simmons Tree Shark will rival smaller 3 blades.
Both 2 blades and 3 blades may yield poor blood trials depending on many factors. There are too many factors to ascertain which one is better than the other with just a handful of hits.
The objective is to have a set-up that may yield great or full penetration if something goes wrong. If your set-up is designed for excellent penetration even if the unexpected happens, my pick would be a 3 blade. If not, and my set-up is still robust, I would go with a 2 blade.