MDC as my fellow Missourians know stands for the Missouri Department of Conservation it's headquarters located in Jefferson City, Mo. which is also our state capitol.
I may have struck a nerve of another member who is from Missouri when I made a comment about the unlimited doe permits available for much of the state. Basically the entire northern portion north of the Missouri River with a small handful of counties south of that line is open quota for antlerless deer.
Let me first say this:
I am Proud to have been born in Missouri and I've lived and hunted here my whole life. I also agree that we have one of the best Conservation Departments around, but no system or organization is without it's flaws. Taking a lackadaisical passive approach or stance if you will, to such things of this nature (Literally) is entirely the wrong way to go about it.
Afterall, it's our deer, turkey, fish, fur bearers, and waterfowl that we are talking about. Aside from the waterfowl which is regulated by the Federal Govt. our own Conservation Department sets the rules, limits, methods of harvest, and general guidelines for our seasons.
One of the flaws that I pointed out in the other Missouri thread was the unlimited doe permits issued and I believe my comment was taken the wrong way by someone else?
Let me explain.
I've hunted from as far north as Montgomery, Audrain, Lincoln, Warren, Monroe, and Callaway Counties, to as far south as St. Francios, Dent, and Wayne counties and everywhere in between, as I'm sure many of you have.
To plainly state that there are too many does/deer and unlimited antlerless permits should be made available is a fairly simple concept...correct? Not so easy.
Harvest data and herd population densities must be obtained first...also correct. Do you know where most of that data comes from? Insurance companies.....from deer/car collisions. Also from MODOT which picks up carcasses off the highways.
You might think it comes from the Telecheck system wouldn't you? Not all of it, and exactly how reliable of a system is that?
It's convenient, I'll surely give it that much. I like the idea of calling from my hunting property when I check a deer and still have a buck tag in my pocket I want to fill. That way I can check my deer while eating a sandwich and go back to hunting immediately afterwards, but how many people do you think abuse that same system? I have personally witnessed it being abused quite often, and heard second hand of even more abuse of that system. I've even called that abuse into the local agent, with not so much as a follow up.
So to think that the Telecheck system is a reliable source of data for the biological diversity of our deer herd is just naive and ridiculous. They may sell that song to most of the state's sportsmen and women, but not me.
It's my belief that at this point in the game where the unlimited quota on does in most Missouri counties has been the norm for quite a number of years, it's time to switch gears a little bit and start basing it on area specific circumstances. I'm talking about County by County and areas within those Counties needs to be more closely looked at to determine if there does indeed exist a condition of over population before just handing out a gazillion anterless permits.
No system, or organization is without it's flaws...period.
I have personally seen entire herds in certain areas get so out of balance from taking out the largest most mature does and leaving the young to maintain the population, that there was only a sporadic evidence of a rut phase that it was almost non-existent. Taking out too many does can be just as much a bad thing as it can be a good thing, you just need to know when to stop....and which ones to take out, which ones to leave.
Also the 4pt. rule needs addressing while I'm at it, and I know this will get me flamed by some of you, but I'm just going to spit it out there and let you all chew on it.
While it sounds good in theory, and basically it's got some good points.....it's not all that simple. It is just not sound herd management to allow a cow horn spike with daggers 8" long and a sack of jewels on him like a pony, walk away protected to infect the rest of the herd with his inferior genetics.....then allow the taking of a 1 1/2 year old basket racked 8pt. just because he has 4 on one side. That is illogical thinking at it's worst. Then on the same hand allowing yearling spikes with tiny little horn tips 3" or less be legal to take, why is that? Because they know they will get shot anyway when they are mistaken for a doe? That's not a good enough excuse in my book. Poor herd management is all it boils down to.
Missouri does have an excellent Conservation Department, just let me reaffirm that. I'm not trashing the Department in any way, just pointing out a few flaws in the system that need addressed. At least we do have a checking system unlike some of our other states to the south of us.....such as Texas for example.
You don't check deer there, my younger brother lives there and he said it's somewhat of an honor system, but if you take it to a meat locker to have processed then they keep the information there with them.
Then on the other hand.....Texas knows how to manage it's deer herd with proper QDM principles (Oh no, I just had to bring up that acronym didn't I) it's true. Texas manages it's state herd for larger bucks based on spread, not just the number of points.
I think Missouri could take a lesson from Texas on that aspect of manging for larger more mature bucks.
Lastly, my own father was an agent for the MDC for quite a few years, so I know first hand a little bit about what I'm talking about. I also fished tournaments with Jeff Berringer who is a nuisance trapper/consultant for the animal control division with the MDC. Ken Drenon (The Ombudsman)..now retired...was also an acquaintance of mine. So please don't misunderstand me or misjudge me with my frank assessment of our Conservation System, because I have the utmost respect for it and everyone involved in it.
To question the flaws of a system is to improve upon it. Without improvement, we are no better than any of the rest.
Thanks for reading and all comments welcomed, please join in.
Agree with most of what you said, but to try and manage county by county is not feasible at this time. Has nothing to do with telecheck, people abused the old system too. I have seen it, my father did it god rest his soul. He grew up in the Depression when there were no deer. People will abuse any system put in place. I agree with your assessment of 4 point rule, it has been shown though that spike bucks at 3 and 4 can achieve good racks also.
Semper Fidelis
Dan Raney
Oh yes, I hear ya about abusing the system. I live in St. Francois county right now and it's the worst I've ever seen around here. These people just have a different mind set and a different code of values....or lack there of?
They think that if they don't kill it.....the next guy will. I try to tell them that if they kill it.....then there's a 100% chance that it will never grow up and get any bigger!
That's the same as seeing the glass as half empty/half full....just depends on your perspective.
I'm Glad we could have a healthy discussion about things and I hope some other fellas from Missouri will chime in too.
~SEMO~
I don't live in MO, but I do hunt there. Most of what you said is good, but the deer managed by width also is not necessarily a good thing. I have a MO rack that is 13 3/4" inside spread. Don't sound like much, but it scored 157". It is a really nice 10 pt. My hunting partner's brother killed one that scored 160 something, but was more narrow.
If you could tell folks to kill mature bucks and people would actually abide by it, deer horn size would grow ALOT, but we all know that would not work.
God Bless,
Nathan
i can see where you are coming from Semo if you hunt alot in St. Francis county or down that way. during the week i hunt in St. Louis county and my friends and i hunt in counties along the Missouri river or north of it on private and public land. in late season we do alot of deer driving with bows and we shoot dozens of does. i have never noticed any thinning of the herd from year to year with the unlimited tags even on public land.
Widespread effective management is required to produce better bucks. I presented the following 16 years ago to an individual on the committee for setting our deer harvest regulations. I receive no response. Note: We have a large deer herd with a significant doe to buck ratio imbalance. Our rut activity is usually rather weak.
1. 1st deer must be a doe and all deer must be physically checked-in. Portion of liscense is used as a check-in fee for the check-in station.
2. 2nd deer may be a buck
3. Additional doe tags determined yearly by biologist.
The #1 problem as I see it is that the fear of loss of revenue takes presedence over implementing a visually effective program. The honor system is failing miserably. I saw more rut activity, more and better quality bucks when we had a 2 buck per season limit.
Bornagain- That's another downfall of any antler restriction program. Some guys or gals just don't know how to tell a mature buck from a young buck, and I'll have to admit that there was a time when I didn't either. My first real wall hanger was a 145" 12pt. that is nearly perfect in every aspect, but he was only about 3 1/2 yrs old. The taxidermist verified that for me by checking his teeth. Even if I had known that before I shot, I probably would have still taken that buck just because it was the biggest I ever killed. 2 years ago I killed a 155" 10pt. that was 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 years old, varified by the same taxidermist and I was really proud because I had just taken my first truely mature buck. I think he had done all his breeding into the gene pool and reached his maximum potential. I'm sure he was in his prime and I was glad to have his genes spread around my hunting grounds, he was an absolute brute both in body size and rack size.
fredhill- That's a perfect comment about the point I was trying to make of all this. Some areas are still almost over run with does and they need to keep the program going in those areas, but there are other areas with lots of hunting/harvest pressure that they need to back off the doe tags a little bit. I'm not saying to take it away completely, but just make it where you get 1 any deer tag, and 1 anterless only tag. That's still 2 does or a buck and a doe, I think that's plenty for anybody and that's the rules here in St. Francois county. We can get as many does with archery equipment we want to, but with a rifle it's 1 any deer and 1 antlerless...then that's it.
There are guys down here that I know of that abuse the system anyway regardless and they still go out and kill 6-7-8 deer a season with rifle, and muzzle loader. They just use their family's tags, or somebody else's farm tags and keep shootin'.....or they just don't tag them at all. It makes me sick that it happens and there's not a darn thing I can do about it....I've tried and it falls on deaf ears.
I abide by the laws and I'm always legal....I don't think my hunting experience has ever suffered from abiding by the laws cause I always get my share.
Thanks for your honest replies guys.
~SEMO~
You touched on a fine point there Friend.
The state is trying to save some money by letting people check their deer over the phone and your right.....it is failing miserably. A guy I used to work with brought in pictures of a small 8pt. he killed with a compound bow, then about a week and a half later he brought in another picture of a bigger buck he killed with a compound bow. I asked him point blank.....I didn't know you could kill 2 bucks with a bow in Missouri before rifle season, I thought you had to wait till after to get your second buck?? He replied that he checked the first one in as a doe over the phone using Telecheck. I just shook my head and walked away. I had to just to avoid a confrontation, in front of people, and at work on top of that.....it wasn't the right time or place to say anything more.
If anybody out there thinks that this doesn't happen all the time, then they are only fooling themselves. If anything is left up to the honor system, there will always be people who figure out a way to exploit it.
One more thing and don't get me wrong....I think it's a fine program to get kids involved in hunting...I really do.
But here's yet another guy at the same place I worked at that told me and about 4 other guys how he took a shot at a huge buck and missed during the youth rifle season in October. I asked him why he shot at it and his boy didn't??
To which he replied....."There wasn't time to hand him the gun and I wasn't going to let that monster get away without taking a shot at him"
Luckily he missed, hopefully he didn't wound it to just go off and die a slow miserable death, but I told him I was glad he missed and that he didn't deserve to be in the woods with a gun or a kid. I just couldn't hold my tongue on that one.
SEMO you and I are on the same page!
I love about 90% of what MDC does but they do and have made mistakes. I hope they rectify them.
I have an opinion and I do let them know.
God bless,Mudd
SEMO, in regards to telechecking,
QuoteIt's convenient, I'll surely give it that much. I like the idea of calling from my hunting property when I check a deer and still have a buck tag in my pocket I want to fill. That way I can check my deer while eating a sandwich and go back to hunting immediately afterwards, but how many people do you think abuse that same system?
How many people abuse the system? My guess would be the same people who abused the old system.
It doesn't matter how you collect the data from the field, they need some sort of mechanism to set quotas based on kills. Check station, or telecheck, it doesn't matter to the poachers they aren't participating anyway.
In talking with the agent in the county I hunt, if anything, Telecheck has made it easier to catch the knuckle heads who do poach. The guy who telechecks his deer 10 min after he buys the tag at wally world is pretty easy to track down. Esp since his name and address are readily available and computer records show the date of purchase and the time of telecheck.
I agree that I see fewer does now than I used to. Maybe they are just getting smarter now that they are a target?
Mudd- I think that's the only way to approach something like our hunting regs is to be pro active. If we just sit around and don't say anything, then we have no excuse to complain when things aren't going as they should. MDC has started to listen to hunters opinions and feedback now, which is a good thing. We are the ones who are out there and we know what's right and what's not right with our deer herd.
I didn't like it one bit when they recently moved black powder season to late December, when it used to pick up right after the rifle portion was over. That's like saying....We don't care about you traditional black powder guys. Well, no amount of complaining changed anything so I sold my front stuffer and now I just pick up the bow again after rifle season is over. I'd rather bow hunt anyway.
Buckhuck- That is very true, poachers are nothing more than thieves and they will find a way to keep doing what it is that they do no matter what.
Back when we had deer check stations, I knew people who didn't check deer simply because they didn't want to waste the time or expense of driving 10 or 15 miles to the check station. They never killed more than the law allowed, they just refused to drive that far to check a deer. With telecheck these same people check their deer. If that's the case elsewhere, we may be getting a more accurate count on killed deer with telecheck.
Couldn't agree more with you SEMO!! Why my area of Christian County still has an urban hunt is a mystery to me. I am averaging seeing less than 1 deer per outing nowdays and there is still an urban gun season????
At least when there were check stations, it was alot harder to tag a buck with a doe permit. Over the phone makes it much easier, of course once the meat is cut up and in the freezer how does anybody really know what it was?
Honestly, I kinda miss the check stations. We used to drive by the local ones and hang out for a little bit just looking at some of the monsters that came through. There was a certain comradery in the air around a check station that just felt good to be in the midst of. I love hearing other people's stories about how they got it, where, how nervous they got, and so forth. I miss that.
QuoteOriginally posted by swp:
Couldn't agree more with you SEMO!! Why my area of Christian County still has an urban hunt is a mystery to me. I am averaging seeing less than 1 deer per outing nowdays and there is still an urban gun season????
Wow, your further south than I am. What major city is around there that needs an urban season??
QuoteHonestly, I kinda miss the check stations. We used to drive by the local ones and hang out for a little bit just looking at some of the monsters that came through. There was a certain comradery in the air around a check station that just felt good to be in the midst of. I love hearing other people's stories about how they got it, where, how nervous they got, and so forth. I miss that.
I agree, that was always really fun. I am sure the gas stations hate it too since they probably made a little $$ off us hanging around shooting the bull.
Oh yeah, my ex was the night manager at one of those gas stationg/convienence stores and she ran the deer checking every year. She said the beer and ice sales went up 10 fold when they were checking deer in! :thumbsup: :jumper:
May I suggest you make contact with your local agent. You mentioned you had passed on information but did you talk with your agent or use OGT?
I know they are all running crazy during gun season but now may be a good time to make that personal contact. All I know appreciate any help they get. A little pre-work before season makes it easier for them to jump in on a fresh lead.
I have spent some time riding with an agent the last couple of years. Some days are crazy!!! I have seen the tele check result in some easy tickets.
I have been opposed to the 4 point rule ever since it was proposed.
I also liked the check stations but I know people abused both systems.
QuoteWow, your further south than I am. What major city is around there that needs an urban season??
Springfield....third largest in the state. At least they cut the urban portion down from a three county area to only Greene and a small portion of Christian.
QuoteOriginally posted by Tom D:
May I suggest you make contact with your local agent. You mentioned you had passed on information but did you talk with your agent or use OGT?
I know they are all running crazy during gun season but now may be a good time to make that personal contact. All I know appreciate any help they get. A little pre-work before season makes it easier for them to jump in on a fresh lead.
I have spent some time riding with an agent the last couple of years. Some days are crazy!!! I have seen the tele check result in some easy tickets.
I have been opposed to the 4 point rule ever since it was proposed.
I also liked the check stations but I know people abused both systems.
Yes and yes to both questions. I was on a first name basis with the agent in my particular county and though I have not contacted him about any violations around these parts (but I should have) the incidents that I made referrence to occured in another county and I didn't know that agent. My older brother and myself used the OGT 800# and got a local dispatch that put us in touch with the agent. My brother spoke to him on the phone and gave very accurate details about the violations, time, location, vehicle descriptions, ect. and was told that he would follow up on it immediately. We were in the area where these violations took place, but kept our distance and no agent ever showed. Then the perps left without incident. My brother recieved a phone call a few days later from the agent who explained that a sheriff's deputy was dispatched to the scene and found nothing of wrong doing. My brother then explained to the agent about our close proximity to the situation and no deputy ever showed up, that's why he found nothing of wrong doing. Needless to say the perps got off scott free and the agent had no reasonable explanation for the mis-communication. So it somewhat left us both with a feeling of "Why even bother?" and at the very least a sick feeling in our stomachs and a bad taste in our mouths. Why plaster a hotline number all over the state if no one ever follows up on tips? Maybe it was just this particular incident, maybe it was this particular agent, or maybe that's pretty much the consensus everywhere in the state? Who knows.
This was a most serious and blatant attack on our wildlife of the worst kind. Some guys on the adjacent property to ours were shooting deer with rifles during bow season. We heard the shots and saw them dragging deer out, pretty obvious to us. The perps should have had their license taken away for life, lost their weapons as evidence, their vehicles impounded indefinitely, and saw stiff fines with jail time. Yet they got nothing.
QuoteOriginally posted by A. Kinslow:
QuoteWow, your further south than I am. What major city is around there that needs an urban season??
Springfield....third largest in the state. At least they cut the urban portion down from a three county area to only Greene and a small portion of Christian. [/b]
I didn't realize that Springfield was that close, but then I had to look on my county map to find Christian County also. I haven't spent much time down that way, just passed through on occasion when coming back from Texas or Arkansas visiting family.
We gun hunt in Douglas and Howell counties and have for 20+ years. I miss the days of the check stations, willow springs fire department was the only check station in that part of the country, opening weekend students from Rolla checked age, health, measured racks and took some blood samples of the majority of deer checked in. Telecheck makes sure that that kind of information will not be collected again.
What better way to spend a Saturday night then to set on the tailgate of a truck and watch the parade of deer come in.
But since the open doe tags began there we have seen a steady decline, not only in quality of deer but quantity, winters are rough on the deer in that part of the country and the mortality rate of young does I believe has greatly decreased the herd.
The telechecking system is a dream for poachers.Its a bad idea.You can't tell me that this system doesn't get more abuse then the old system.It gets abused much more.Hell they used to set up road blocks on the road to catch poachers with untagged illegal deer here.
I have a few problems with mdc.
Like being able to kill hogs by any means neccesary anytime.Another dream for a poacher.Used to if they caught you in the woods before gun season with a gun you got a ticket for hunting out of season.Now all you have to say is your hog hunting.Yes I'm all for hogs in missouri.
How about it being illegal to kill owls,hawks or have the feathers of either.I see dead hawks on the road all the time and I'd love to get and use the feathers but its a big fine to have posession..I don't like that something is protected that kills alot of rabbits out.
Rabbits!What is going on with rabbit populations?You used to be able to drive down any gravel road at night and they would be everywhere.Now you rarely see any at all.You could get your limit with a bow now it can be tough to get your limit with a gun.Me and my family hardly go anymore theres just not enough rabbits to bother.
As far as big antlers I really don't care.I hunt for the meat and the horns mean nothing.If I shot a record deer it wouldn't get stuffed.I'd keep the antlers though for show.
I'm a (we could never have too many deer) kinda person)Whatever makes the deer population larger I'm all for it.
As far as MDC agents.What agents?Haven't seen them while out fishing or hunting or been checked in years.
Just a note before I move this to politics forum.... Hawks owls and possession of their parts is a Federal thing.