Just received my new $1050.00 longbow from a well known Bowyer in Montana, beautiful bow, however after bracing it and shooting it, I noticed that the tiller was reversed. I called the Bowyer on it, and he said that if I send it back to him he will just sand the back and belly of the top limb to bring it in to tiller. He said it was a five minute fix. I stated to him that everything I have ever been told was that this was a big no no.... He stated that that was not the case, that since the glass is .050 that there was plenty of room to fix the error.. I packaged it up and have sent it back, however I'm just sick about the whole deal. Any suggestions would be helpful...
What do you mean by reversed?
How did you notice? Did it shoot poorly?
My suggestion is to not get too wrapped around the axle about it. It is a thousand dollar bow, and you have every right to expect a bow built to your specs, but let the man fix his mistake. If, at that time, it doesn't meet your expectations, take it from there. 95% of the bowyers out there are absolutely stand up fellas and I am sure he will fix it, make you a new one, or refund your money.
That said, I am a bit confused as well by what you mean by "reversed tiller." Whether you shoot split or Apache style, five minutes of shooting a new bow isn't going to show up in a huge way. In reality, the apex of the bowstring when pulled back is still very nearly in the same spot, it is a very subtle difference.
Sorry if there is some confusion here. The tiller of a bow should show that the bottom limb is the stronger limb or at least the same as the top limb, depending on if you shoot a split finger, or 3 under.. This bow shows the bottom limb measument of 1/4" more than the top, when measured from the fadeout to the string when braced.
AH I see...cut the riser upside down I bet after tillering the bow.
Sanding fiberglass is alright, look at the old bears and you can tell many hade the same thickness of laminations and the fiberglass was sanded way down to achieve lighter wieght. Many are still being shot after being around for 50+ years. Plus I sand the galss on every bow I build to one extreme or another.
-Mike
He told you right,sanding the glass is the right way to adjust tiller.It was mentioned the bow most likely was tillered and then cut upside down. The only problem is you will drop the bow weight when the glass is sanded.It maybe a few pounds due to the fact he has to adjust about 1/2" of tiller now to give you 1/4".Dont worry though,im sure the bowyer will make it right even if its another bow made to your specs.Keep us posted.
Well said Brandon.
It will be fine.
I have received a bow like that before. Kind of hard to swallow at $1050. If you can't live with the bowyers option you will have to tell them so. No sense having a bow you hate for the rest of your life. If the bow is indeed as you describe, that is a major error on the bowyers part. The bowyer owes you complete satifaction. You will have to be the judge.
Had a new bow come with slight limb twist. When drawn back the string would come out of the bottom limb groove and when let down would lay beside the groove. I was really bummed because the bow is beautiful and I did not want to have a whole new bow made. Spoke with the bowyer and he was extreamly appologetic and said he would be able to fix it for sure. Well, other than a little time inconvenience, the bow was returned working perfectly. I am sure it will all be fine for you as well.
I say this just so you know it happens and is corrected - keep the faith, trad archery is the one arena where I feel there is a much greater percentage of stand-up people in business than almost any other. At least this is what I have found to be true.
Bob Urban
I would drive to Montana and sit out front of his house until he fixes it,no matter how long it takes! :saywhat:
I don't know that (IMO) you could ask for or expect more from this unfortunate mistake.
Since when are bowyers held to a standard that says they aren't allowed to make a mistake?
It would appear that as mistake was made, you caught it and he is willing to make it right.
I am sure both of you would just as soon this hadn't happened, but it looks like it did and an attempt to make it right is being made.
I am sorry both of you are having to go through this difficulty. It could be an opportunity to get to know your bowyer as a real person.
God bless,Mudd
I had this happen on a 3 piece takedown bow. The bowyer mailed me a new set of limbs right away.
Don't know who the bowyer is, but I will tell a positive story:
I had Herb Meland make me another set of limbs for my beloved 3-pc Pronghorn. He had me send the riser so he could refinish it. Time seemed a little long, so I called him. He said, "OH, I sent that out today"
When I got it, he had refinished my original riser, and sent me a completely new bow with a letter explaining he had modified the new risers, and the limbs didn't fit the old one, so I GOT A COMPLETELY NEW PRONGHORN FOR THE PRICE OF THE LIMBS. That's customer service.
I have a Bob Lee longbow with the same problem, I contacted them and explained that if I reversed the limbs then the tiller was fine, they offered to remove the marking on the limbs and refinish them for $75. Forget it!! I get some strange looks when going to 3D shoots, people keep telling me that I have the limbs on upside down, I explain that I am not going to pay for the companys mistake!
he could have sent you a lefty (assuming your a righty) sounds a little too busy to me, bummer. I have had a mishap on a custom bow order - 4 months I waited, I think that was the hardest part, took me a while to like the bow but it is now my current favorite
Snufer, I gotta say that if Bob Lee told me that they'd have one less customer for life. If they made a mistake it is their responsibility to fix it for free. I've dealt with companies before (not trad companies) who have screwed up and wanted me to pay for their mistake. Doesn't go over very well with me.
I make them here and there. I did a repair recently on a guy's black widow, a relimb and when I was getting the draw weight right I didn't realize my scale was reading nearly 2# light. It was off calibration. So I got it back to fix. Just last week I sent a customer a recurve when she ordered a longbow. I jumped on that and the 2 passed each other in the postal system a few days later.
Flip side; last Christmas morning I had an angry customer call me up and say I made his son's longbow left handed when it should have been right handed. I apologized profusely, we ended the call, I nearly had an emotional break down. The he calls back and says it's alright; grampa had it strung backwards. It still really messed up my day.
Nobody's perfect I guess.
-Mike
I had a problem with a bow recently as well. I contacted the bowyer and sent pics of my limbs to show the problem. He told me to send the bow back and if it was not repairable he would make another. It turns out the bottom limb was too stiff. He sanded the bottom limb and refinished the entire bow. Awesome customer service and I will be buying another bow from him! Give your bowyer some time and I'm sure he can correct the mistake just like mine did.
Thanks guys for all the positive comments, the bow is a three piece takedown, so indeed the bowyer could make me some new limbs. I do understand that mistakes happen, I will just have to see how it turns out.
I want to thank Mudd for his insight. I can't imagine ever having enough funds to even consider a $1000 bow, but my first thoughts/emotions reading it was "What else might be wrong if his QC isn't any better than that on a backwards tiller?"
However, in reading Mudd's thoughts and the others comments that sanding glass is how it's fixed...well, had he just been a bit more on his game on this one, he'd have caught that error at the shop and done the exact same "fix" before he sent it to you & you'd never have known! :)
Good luck with the results being as you wish!
Personally, I think a new bow would be in order or a 10 year warranty on the original.
I sand glass all the time no worries have done it to .40 glass and still fine as long as its the belly of the bow.
I don't build bows, but $1000.00 asking price for a bow, and No Q.C. ? Not a rear craftsman
"Quick Fix" , do it correct the first time. Check your work if you say your a Craftsman!!
My $.02
If it's a three piece takedown, why not just swap the limbs?
I'd bet the mistake was them being marked wrong.
John,you got a great deal from Herb unfortunately not everyone is that lucky. As much as I love my all zebrawood 3pc had I know I couldnt get another set of limbs for it I would have bought another 1 pc and saved $150.00...PR
Sounds to me like the limbs were marked wrong, Reversed... Had it happen more than once. I thought this was a 1 pcs. bow and yes it would have to be sanded to get tiller right. But a 3 pcs. reverse the limbs as they were intended, send them back to have the lettering changed when you have time.Give your bowyer a break.
Several really good bowyers have already said that they sand glass. I won't lay claim to being the end all of this conversation but I sand glass on every bow I build to fine tune and tiller. Micrometer in hand while Ido it.
I will plead guilty to having made the same mistake once in my bow building carear. How it happenied I will never know but it did . From that time foreward I swore it would never happen again. I check double check and tripple check just before the bow is mailed. It can happen even in the fine sanding of the finishing process so it has to be constantly checked during the building process.
I have also cut a riser on the wrong side and ended up with a left hand bow . I was building that one for myself./ Stuff just happens.
I would bet that bowyer slows down , just enough to check tiller from now on because that is just embarrassing. Especially on a high end bow. But it does happen. There should be no harm done as long as you get a perfect bow back , just like you like and ordered it. Relax and give the man time to fix it. God Bless you, Steve
I agree with most others in the fact that the bowyer is entitled to make a mistake. That being said, for that price the bow should have never made it to you like that. I think for that amount of money there should have been some Q.C. I also don't agree with just sanding the limbs and sending it back. You ordered a new bow at your specs and that's what you should receive. Not one that's been shipped back and forth and sanded and jerryrigged and probably won't be the correct weight when done anyway. But, mistakes do happen, give the guy a chance to make it right. You never know he may make you a new bow.
I hope he doesn't read this thread.
How much less should the brace height of the lower limb be on a split tillered bow? (Hope I asked that right) I assume 3-under tillered limbs have the same brace height.
QuoteOriginally posted by Buckeye Trad Hunter:
I agree with most others in the fact that the bowyer is entitled to make a mistake. That being said, for that price the bow should have never made it to you like that. I think for that amount of money there should have been some Q.C. I also don't agree with just sanding the limbs and sending it back. You ordered a new bow at your specs and that's what you should receive. Not one that's been shipped back and forth and sanded and jerryrigged and probably won't be the correct weight when done anyway. But, mistakes do happen, give the guy a chance to make it right. You never know he may make you a new bow.
I have to agree here. For that kind of money a simple tiller check would have been easy. Mistakes do happen, the tiller on a bow is pretty important. My vote would be a discount for your trouble and a set of limbs that are to your specs. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
I won't pretend to know what it takes to make a 1000 bow, but I do believe at that price you should get your money's worth. Heck I expect a perfect bow when I spend half as much.
For a simple game, this traditional sport sure is pricey sometimes.
Calm in, calm out. Don't settle. It'll get fixed to your satisfaction I'd bet w/o problems.
Every one makes mistakes. It is how the mistakes are handled that matters in the end.
I ordered a custom bow from a well known boyer (2nd one I had bought from him) come in with what looked like air pockets in the riser finish. I called him about it and he told me how to fix it. Needless to say he lost a customer.
Even if the weight is hit when all the sanding is done, can removing a lot of glass throw the bow out of its design benefits and make a worse shooting bow for the design? Perhaps with a thick core it would not matter as much, but I would think that there is a possibility of an imbalance there with a thinner cored bow. Where is the center on the bow mentioned, is the bow cut out upside down.
I've wondered that also,,, if you sand one limb to bring it into tiller when no pressure is being exerted to the string by the shooter, will it still bend evenly with the non-sanded [thicker] limb when the bow is at full draw???
I can possibly see sanding both limbs "equally" in an attempt to bring down the over-all draw weight of a bow, BUTT, sanding only one limb??? :wavey:
Be happy you even got a bow. I sent a Montana bowyer $710.00 and didn't even get a bow.
As everyone said it will work out fine and you will have the bow you dreamed of. is just a few day's
I can just say I bought a Black Douglas for something over 600 pounds(English money) and strung it using the behind the leg method...being nbew to recurves I managed to twist the limbs...
Took it back to Sid and told him what I had done.
He kinda told me how stupid I was then went to the shop and gave me new limbs that he had and laughed it off...
For the money I spent I expected good service but was ready to pay for my stupidity but didnt have to...my next bow will come from him again.
What I am trying to say is I would like a new bow if I was you.
It will always be in the back of my mind even if he fixed it.
But I have to add that I dont know anything about bow building so he probably can fix it and fix it propper ... $1000 is a lot of money to me so after having to save I want what I paid for.
I recieved a bow from south texas (hybrid longbow)with file marks and a dished contour on one side of upper limb, and wrong lenth. I ordered 70 inch and got a 68. He offered to build another or I lose 50% cash.after seeing hiw work, I said no to both and kept bow for display.
yes mistakes are made in the build but the worst mistake is in quality control, dont ship it without a final inspection.
For a high price like that, I would want a new bow, not a fixed bow. This isn't a 300 dollar second hander. With the prices commanded by todays top bowyers (worth it, don't get me wrong) you should indeed get what you paid for. Mistakes happen, thats understandable. But if YOU are questioning whats happening here, did you get what you paid for? A bow that MIGHT be fine? He should offer a new bow with no arguement whatsoever. It was his mistake and if he is a man of pride, he will make good on your decision.
Did I actually read "give the BOWYER a break" in the threads above? , At over a grand? Thats alot of money for most of us. That comment REALLY really hit me hard. I hope it was meant in a different way that I am taking it. I will try to keep an open mind on that one.
A new bow, because the lettering was reversed????? Do any of you, not bowyers, Have any idea of all the sanding, filing, fit and feel materials, equipment,that goes into your $1000 (custom??) bow. If this or any bowyer catches this error and corrects it before sending it out, do you still qualify for a NEW BOW??? Is $1000 bow the number that makes a bow a "Custom"???? and your intitled to be more criticle at this point????
$1000 is a lot of money for a bow. You buy what you can afford. Some used custom bows are better that some new bows. If that used custom has a scatch or lettering worn off is the bowyers still responsible to replace that lettering?????
Custom is way over used. Most are standard bows with Options. Just because you take a standard bow $700 and add exotic woods, snake skins, carbon and what ever and its upto $1200 does not make it custom. still a STANDARD with options.Most custom anything I've seen have no lettering or numbers written on them that can be seen and can cost as much as 4X as standard ( Gun, Cars, Houses.)
Riverbend did you shoot it? I would have shot it, it may be the best you ever shot.LCH
Talk about Bowyers having to walk a thin line. I've got to say from reading the miles of threads extolling the virtues of the service and craftsmanship from the Bowyers here I am a bit surprised by this thread....We are all human and make mistakes. This Bowyer said he would fix his? Bobs right this error could have been discovered before he shipped it fixed then sent. Other than the turn around time shipping and receiving, what's the difference?
You're right Bob, I stand corrected.
Any new bow should be replaced no matter what the price if that is what the customer wants after getting a flawed bow. It was NEW, not used. Of course the bowyer is not responsible for second hand stuff, thats why I said just that.
I don't care what you're excuse would be. If it were you, and you did all that work and spent the time and customers money on materials and made a mistake....thats your mistake Bob. If you caught it before you sent it out, good for you. But if he finds the mistake and is not happy with whats going on...you took his money and gave him a bow that is not right. Yes, he should get a new bow IF that is what he wants. If he's willing to let it be fixed. thats great for both. Which by the way, I would probably do myself.
But if that guy wants a new bow, paid for it, and then gets something else that he is unsure of...damn right. Build him a new one. You know the other would sell anyway.
I'm sure you're not happy with me and we will never agree on this, that's too bad cuz I LOVE your stuff. Got one of yours hanging right by the bed! No matter what your response, I'd help you drag out an elk any day if you needed it.
Just for clearification :saywhat: Bob Morrison is NOT a Montana Bowyer... I'm sure Bob was just expressing his feelings on this issue and is in No Way involed in this bow....
I have never had any type of issues with Bob's Bows and would gladly have many more of his if I could afford new bows and had more disposable $$.
Gene :thumbsup:
Bob, I understand how you could see this differently than most. But, I'm with dave on this. Regardless of the price, if someone orders a new bow, whether it be custom or standard with options or whatever you choose to call it, then he or she should get a new, quality bow just as he or she ordered. I'm sorry but just as with anything else in life, it's not the customers fault that the manufacturer screwed up and the manufacturer should be held responsible. I stated earlier to give the guy a chance to make it right before throwing him to the dogs. I believe he does deserve a chance to fix the mistake but there is no excuse for no quality control on a bow that costs that much money if you're truly getting what you pay for. Personally I'd want a new bow sent to me the way I ordered it.
By the way, if they're just standard bows with options, then why does it take so damn long to get'em? :biglaugh: I'm just kiddin with ya.
Just for clarification, no one is attacking Bob. He's just the voice of reason that brings us all back from the lynch mob mentality on this one.
Yup, no prob with Bob. Just talkin'!
This is just my opinion but situations like this are why more and more people are opting for "off the rack" stuff. If you get it and something is not to your satisfaction, you send it back for another. Any of the good archery retailers will bend over backwards to make sure you are happy. That's the way it should be.
Warranties are there for "fixing" stuff that shows up AFTER shooting it for a while. If it is wrong from day one, before an arrow is even sent through it, I think it should be replaced if that's what the customer wants. A few of these, and the bowyer will make sure things are right before the bow leaves the shop. The customer shouldn't have to be the quality control dept, especially for a thousand dollar bow.
It is not my bow, but I know the feelings of the bowyer.And I can guarantee that I would not replace a bow just because the writting was reversed. I would change the writing.A flawed bow would be another item. If it would get to the point of demanding a new bow, I would return your full price of the bow. Good luck with your new bowyer.
I think this entire conversation is a bit on the rediculous side if the only thing wrong is that the top and bottom limb were mis numbered. I really never considered that because on my bows the window cutout makes the top limb different than the bottom limb in appearance. If the limbs interchange and its simply a number change then this conversation should not even be taking place.JMHO> God Bless you all and have a wonderful day, steve.
If that's the issue then why didn't the bowyer just say that? Strip the finish, change the writing, and refinish, that's acceptable. He just marked the wrong limb, for that I could live with the quick fix on the bow. Sanding and shaving limbs on a bow that was built wrong(which is what I thought happened), that's a whole different story.
Me too, I read that the bowyer said he would be sanding glass to fix this. Go back and read here fellas. Writing on limbs is not the issue from the bowyers response. That would be ridiculous, and I would have no prob swapping limbs. Or the bowyer could refinish...I would be embarrassed for this mistake if it were me who made the bow and would demand the bow back to refinish for free.
If I ordered any new bow from a reptuable bowyer I expect it to be right.I would not spend 1,000 bucks on a bow I had not researched.With that done and the Bowyer has the money I expect what I paid for a quality 1,000 dollar bow .Tillered correctly.I would not be willing to except anything less.
I know Bowyers have a demanding job to satisfy the customer But I would have to save a very long time to buy a 1,000 dollar bow and trust me I would have many more hours work in it than the bowyer. If I wanted a badly tillered bow I would have spent much less money and got what I paid for.RC
It is possible that the limbs won't work that well reversed, some designs wouldn't work that way well even if they are a three piece, due to the way the centershot is adjusted during tiller. I would ask for more "even" tiller if the bowyer wanted to re-tiller it, 1/4 seems like a lot of tiller,
I've been having better luck with even tiller, with split finger draw myself that is. I've checked a few of my fixed tiller 3 piece longbows and there around 1/16 positive.
If the bowyer wants to re-tiller it, then maybe the limbs weren't switched and miss marked?
But I would go with the Bowyer's wishes, he knows the most about it, lets hope. These things happen.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
I think this entire conversation is a bit on the rediculous side if the only thing wrong is that the top and bottom limb were mis numbered.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bowbldr:
It is not my bow, but I know the feelings of the bowyer.And I can guarantee that I would not replace a bow just because the writting was reversed.
QuoteOriginally posted by Riverbend:
I called the Bowyer on it, and he said that if I send it back to him he will just sand the back and belly of the top limb to bring it in to tiller.
It's quite an assumption to say that this issue is simply a matter of mismarked limbs. The bowyer himself said it would need to be reworked. Let's not make the customer the bad guy here.
I have done some air head math on sanding 50 thou glass. If the limb lengths are correct that is, the gravitational center is in the correct place, 1&1/4" from center or whatever this particular bow is, to get the 3/8" relative shift of the top to bottom limb would not take that much sanding. If it is anything but a short hybrid, it would probably turn out fine.
It is possible the limbs can not be switched, some make there top and bottom limb pins setups different so you can't reverse them. If this is the case that means the tiller will need to change 1/2" to get the 1/4" less on the bottom. That is more sanding than I would feel comfortable about doing.I would make new limbs. Retiller the other to 3 under and resell them as instock, Still a good limb. Some of the best shooting limbs of my own personal stuff have been sanded to the point I would not sell them, I never have a problem with them breaking or anything else. Some have been real shooters.
Hey Bob, I wished I could order another 18 inch riser from you, you look like you have too much time on your hands, LOL. I need more work to do that though. Economy bad.
Sometimes I blab too much, acting like I know something about bows. Forgive me.
Larry we do take paypal :bigsmyl: I'm just waiting on the evening hunt, it may be too hot (around 80) but I need to get into the woods and out of the house,,,,,,and computer.
I have learned from this thread that we don't build custom bows, our bows start less $800 1pc $950 3 pcs. Just under that magic $1000 :bigsmyl:
My congratulations to all the tradional bowers out there. You build bows for the love of Tradional Archery and not for the money because you are skilled craftsmen who could make much more money doing something else. Your bows are worth more than a $ 1000 dollars but you keep the cost down for us common guys.
Tradional bowers are my heros. Thanks, guys!!! Ken Denton
Yeah, you make some very inexpensive non custom bows don't you Bob? :bigsmyl:
Ok, thanks again for all the comments. Let me just share a couple of things. The limbs are not made to reverse, the top one has the cutout for the sight window and the bottom is rounded. Also the alignment pins are spaced different from top to bottom. I know that the price I payed was high, but I really like the design this bowyer has, and also I added some custom features, such as horn and carbon, along with exotic woods. I really just believe the bowyer was in a hurry to finsh the bow, so he could go hunting. There was a couple of other small minor things such as finger prints in the finish and some sanding marks on the handle. I can live with the minor stuff, I just want the bow limb to turn out. I guess if they dont, I will have to spend more money and have another set made. Lessons learned.
This is just a shame. You shouldn't spend ANY more money. I really hope this guy comes through for you, good luck and let us know! Sounds like one heck of a nice bow otherwise.
For a 1000 bucks you should not live with it period,finger prints, sanding marks and limb issues. Craftsmanship is part of the price of the bow not just the materials and the name of bowyer on it.
Just a comment about QC checking before product is shipped. In the real world no matter how much you QC something at somepoint it will leave with a problem. Its called being human.
I hope your issure is resolved. And if the bowyer had caught the issue before shipping and fixed it you would never have known.
The biggest problem you will face now is the mentality aspect of it...........
Finger prints, sanding marks, miss tillered, over $1000 and you still have this kind of composure. I am indeed impressed. You sound like a super person. Don't let what your bowyer does or doesn't do change you. You have to live with yourself.
The bowyer said he would make it right. Give him a chance to do just that.
I am the first owner of the house I live in. I paid a bit more than $1000 for it. There were some problems with it when I moved in, and the builder made them right. I never considered asking for a new house.
Are you kidding???????????????????
Nope. Are you?
kat, you may have taken me the wrong way... I meant about the price of your house!
1000 dollars for a house is quite the deal, even if its a tent! Nice!
Well now you got me. Fingerprints and sanding marks are not good at all. Sorry but I draw the line on a bow having anything less than a perfect finish. That is a sign of conscienciousness in building and craft. Pride in workmanship. It tells the tude of the builder toward the entire process. At least that is how I feel about it.
With a cutout for the sight window like I have on my bows and like you are talking about if retillering takes off more than a couple of lbs and gets out side of what is acceptable to you then I would be building you another bow or a new set of limbs. God Bless you and hope this works out. Steve