I got into a heated debate with a fellow hunter in school today that started with the wrongs and rights of dog hunting, that led to bowhunting, and ended up with him telling me that my dreams of using flint arrow heads are inhumane. That got me mad. Next thing you know Im almost yelling at this obviously unknowledable young man about how now, just because society has been led to believe that you need the most high-tech equipment to efficiently kill a deer, the time tested methods of hunting with a stone point and traditional bow is inhumane!!! I then proceded to tell him that he is the one hunting with a bow whos sights "may be on" after a car ride or a broadhead that will "probably" open when you shoot a deer (his words not mine) Im the one whos inhumane!! People these days just dont think before they talk!!! :mad: :mad: ...Sorry for the rant I just felt the need to vent
Trouble is, my friend, whether we like dog hunting or not, it is a legal practice in these here parts, and has been a tradition of many of these families. We choose to use the bow, they choose to run their dogs. We need to have an open mind and accept that.
I don't know why anybody would want to toughen up their venison like that, but, thats my own opinion.
Easy there. He didn't even say which side of the dog hunt he was on....
Sorry bud... sounds like a bad day.
Hit by motor vechicle is more inhumane -or- even loss of habitat and starvation (you get my point).
What's most important are protecting our rights to hunt, being a positive influence, safety, conservation, and wildlife management.
You may choose to never hunt with person... but more importantly, don't spend any more time thinking about it and mend your friendship with your classmate.
My 2 cents...
flint has worked pretty well for a long time.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jim in Maine:
Easy there. He didn't even say which side of the dog hunt he was on....
No need to tell me "easy there", I was simply saying that as hunters, we need to be tolerant of the ones who use different tools. Afterall, we are all brothers of the hunt.
Inhumane is breaking your bow out of the closet a week(If you're lucky...maybe more like a day or so) before game day.
The week before archery opens here is awesome.Cob-webby/dusty bows and mismatched arrows coming in all week to my local shop.I even saw a pic of an arrow fletched with 2 feathers and a Vane.(On one of the shop employees' camera phone).THAT's inhumane.
Trad bows and flint heads on the front of tuned setups are not.
Oh I don't mind dog hunting. I was just arguing to sharpen his and my own debate skills. Im open to all hunting and think its good to support the habbit in anyway. I personnaly dont dog hunt, and it ocassionaly ruins my day while hunting the way I hunt, but any hunting is good. I had no intention of even getting to into it until he dropped the inhumane bomb. The heated part only started when he said that. And honestly, it would not bother me if he had a reason to think that. I got angry because he said it without knowing a thing about it. He didn't even know the process of making a stone arrowhead, yet alone how deadly it is.
I shot a deer with a stone arrowhead once- and it was the most devastating broadhead wound I have ever seen.
Dead deer quick !
This guy is 'shooting at a snake at the bottom of his boat'. He perceives stone heads as bad; so he is blathering about it; when indeed; he is in the same boat as you. Your both hunters- it must amuse anti-hunters and confuse non-hunters as to why two hunters would be arguing.
I hope your argument was in private.
Remind him that he is on the path of technology; and what bow and arrows he will be shooting now- will in 20 years be considered inhumane by the techno group.
While in all that time: trad bowhunters will still be taking animals humanely- as they always have.
Better- avoid confrontation with him.
Sorry you had to go through that. His word choice was poor. Words mean things. He should know better. It sounded quite inflamatory. Most folks drop that kind of word when they are on the losing side of an arguement. It sounded like a personal attack/lecture and not a conversation.
Martin
ya know someone should have told them Indians before they killed all those deer and buffalo. :goldtooth:
Haha I like that Ipcjon2.
QuoteOriginally posted by vtmtnman:
Inhumane is breaking your bow out of the closet a week(If you're lucky...maybe more like a day or so) before game day...Trad bows and flint heads on the front of tuned setups are not.
Precisely ...
We got to where we are in part to crude bows with flint tipped arrows in the hands of expert bowhunters.
Just because we chose to use primitive weapons like our ancestors did that doesn't give us a moral high ground. Until we become the expert bowhunter or the expert rifle hunter, our actions will always be looked upon as inhumane ... the shot could have been better chosen, better placed, etc.
I am not one to hold a grudge. As a matter of fact, Ill probably go in tomarrow and act as if nothing happened. I just wish people would realize what they are talking about and take the time to realize how all of this happened and the history of their hobby as I have and plan to still do. I just see people becoming more kill oriented and jumping right in to something that takes almost no skill to learn, and love like hunting traditionally does. That is when ignorince like this seeps in. To give you an example of that, it took my almost two years of practice to get to a point to where I feel comfortable taking a 20 yard shot, and the fella I had this argument has only owned a bow for a month, and on top of that, he tried to tell me what was inhumane and what wasn't. I think that is what set me off more than him actually thinking its inhumane.
I guess the way I see it, If you dont have to put in time and effort to learn how to do the thing you love like someone else has, you shouldnt be giving any "pointers" to someone who has about what they do or what they intend to do.
Flint inhumane? Seems to have a pretty good track record the last 10,000+ years!
I would say that staying calm and putting logical points in front of the ignorant is a great way to bring them to a clearer understanding of your point of view. Arguing with the ignorant is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. It is totally pointless and eventually you realize the pig is enjoying it.
I read an article years ago, with accompanying microscopic photos, which showed the edge of a surgeon's scalpel and the edge of a flint, maybe obsidian, knife or arrowhead. The stone edge was perfectly smooth. The metal scalpel had pits and flaws in the cutting edge.
Wish I could find those photos on the net to help you.
Science lesson for your friend: obsidium microtome blades are some of the sharpest in the world and used in a host of medical facilities for microscopic dissection of tissue of one cell thickness. There are also some blades made of flint as well.
Yes sir, the same natural material arrowheads are made of.
My 2 cents worth
Everywhere I look......I see dumb people! LOL
I see this and hear it all the time and have even had some of these kind of somewhat heated debates with fellow hunters myself. But I have arrived at the realization after some maturing on my own behalf that in today's world we should not be criticizing each other for how we chose to hunt. The simple fact that we DO Hunt means that we are on the same side and should ban together like the brothers that we are. The only thing that separates us is the methods with which we chose to pursue our passions.
There are far too many groups out there who's only purpose is to divide us and pit us against ourselves and destroy the sport that we love so dearly, the last thing we should do is fight amongst ourselves.
I also do understand how these confrontations get started and it's usually by someone with an ego that feels the need to tell others how good he is and how right he is.....when in all actuality he is nothing more than a child with some toys.
I lost my ego a long time ago because it's just extra baggage that I don't care to lug around with me.
While I don't particularly agree with every method of hunting that's practiced nowadays, I will stand behind you and your right to engage in it as long as it is legal and all laws are followed. That is what will keep our hunting, fishing, trapping, and shooting sports alive and well, but only if we stick together and not allow ourselves to be torn apart by such petty differences. Bottom line is that we can chose to engage in such confrontations, but there is always the option to simply walk the other direction or handle them privately away from audiences who may not understand.
We either chose to hang together, or apart we will surely hang.
Just my humble opinion.
"Trad Bowhunter: I read an article years ago, with accompanying microscopic photos, which showed the edge of a surgeon's scalpel and the edge of a flint, maybe obsidian, knife or arrowhead. The stone edge was perfectly smooth. The metal scalpel had pits and flaws in the cutting edge.
Wish I could find those photos on the net to help you.
--------------------
Southpaw shooter...."
I read and saw this article as well. I've since learned that non metallic materials are being used in nerve and brain surgery because of those findings. Its no suprise to me that nature makes something way sharper than we can come up with. -Greg
Arguing with an ignorant, moronic, idiotic, knucklehead is a waste of time.
Also the terms humane and inhumane as applied to animals and especially game is very dangerous no matter the circumstances. In is an inappropriate adjective. They are not human and we would never consider hunting humans or killing humans or consuming them. That is how anti's want the world to view animals.
Eh, tell the clod his GF's picture causes greater wounding/suffering.
;)
Haha...Tony!
I believe eye surgeons use obsidian to operate with too...
You can always take a arrow and poke him in the a$$ with it and ask him if it's sharp enough to kill humanely. :thumbsup:
I got into a conversation @ a Subway one day with a guy that claimed Black Bears were not dangerous because you could easily out run them. I gave up on the premise of "Never argue with an idiot, people might not be able to tell the difference".
Trouble is, the bigger the entity (gov or whatever non hunting group) the more idiots like this will make decisions for you. Challenge them & cut their water off!
I had a guy from Mossy Oak's Hunting The Country TV show tell me last spring at a turkey camp that recurve hunters only recover 1 out of 10 deer hit.Late 20's know-it-all.I told him he was an idiot which Cuz found funny-he just shook his head about the ignorant kid.
Not all flint edges are created equal. I am sure that anyone with experience can advise you on testing for sharpness. I have seen them glide through leather like a steak knife, while the one I was working on would not. My obsidian was sharp enough that I made that day. I talked with a man that shot a moose with with a stone point and a self bow that was not all that heavy or fast compared to the Schulz I was shooting that day. His first arrow hit bone and bounced off, his second came out the other side and took the moose down in just a few seconds. Stone points are way cool, idiots who think they know everything because they watch TV are just idiots.
i encounter o lot of the same reactions in my high school life.. ive decided the best reaction is to calmly explain facts to those willing to listen, and for the large number who want to get into an argument about the matter, to just smile and change the subject. the fact of the matter is that most people arent going to change their minds once theyve set them against something. 99% of them are more or less completely ignorant on the subject of bowhunting and its complexities, and always remember that whenever you have one of these conversations that youre representing the hunting community.
shoot straight,
Luke McMillan
I would agree that stone heads are not appropriate except for those who are skilled with their equipment, how to keep them sharp in a quiver and have good knowledge of thier equipment. The equipment does not make the hunter. Now, with someone who is skilled in thier use they have proven there worth.
What was his reason for saying that a stone point is inhumane? Does he know how sharp stone points are? Does he know that some surgeons prefer to use obsidian scalpals because of their sharpness and ability to hold an edge? Sounds to me that he has chosen to take a side on something that he was ignorant about. Many people in the world have that problem, they believe this way or that just because. They know nothing about it but they have a hardline stand on the subject.
A dull broadhead should never be hunted with no matter what it is made from.
No amount of equipment cn make someone a good archer or hunter, just like no amount of argument can make a moron intelligent. M2c
I wonce had A guy give me some friction about the paint I was spraying on the heads i was making being toxic. I had to explian that I was going to try to kill anamels not poisen them.
people see what they want to see.
Do your part be honest with your self about your efectave raing and dont worry about what you can't controle.
five steps can make all the differance.
i also saw that article comparing obsidian blades to surgeons steel blades.Not 100% positive but i believe i read about it in a National Geographic.Ross
You'll learn the art of silence with his type, Jonathan. Proud of ya for standing up, though. :thumbsup:
How do you practice with a stone head and not damage/dull it,also how do you get your heads all the same size/weight so they fly the same?
Always was curious about that.
You said "I was just arguing to sharpen his and my own debate skills." I hope that what you have learned from this experience is that when you get mad and almost start yelling, it means that you have lost the debate. I'm not being critical, I just want you to think about what happened and be more in control the next time some anti starts pushing your buttons. It will make us all look better.
Learn how to knap stone and make yourself some heads, kill a deer and that will end the argument. Until then he will always have the edge based on ignorance. Proof with success will shut him up.
Bob Urban
The mix of Osage self bows and stone heads seems to work because from I have seen minor weight fluctuation in arrow weight don't make much difference in accuracy at reasonable distances. I will admit to being a bit prejudiced on the subject, not because I am a 100% primitive shooter myself, I have admired others that are experts at it. It is an art form in all aspects when done by those that are proficient with all of the little details. I do have this amazing piece of pignut hickory that just aches to kill something with an obsidian point.
As long as you not trying to kill HUMANES w/ them,then they aren't INHUMANE!!!
Brian made a great point. A couple actually. The only mistake you made was getting angry. Let him think what he wants and you what you want. Talk, maybe you can add info to his knowledge base (maybe not) but don't get angry.
Many today are instant experts after reading a few articles and buying an instant shooting machine. They know far more (tongue in cheek here) than anyone that has hunted 50 years but still uses that old stuff.
In the end, you are gonna do it your way anyway.
ChuckC
this reply is for Idaho Curt
I test fly all arrows that I hunt with steel and stone.
I have a local sorce for a foam that is about like a Rineheart 3d for hardness.
I have some stone point arrows that have 50 shots
with no damage. It's fun to let people who have never shot one have at it.
of corse I sharpen all heads steel and stone befor hunting it's the only responcable thing to do.
as for size and weaght it comes with skill level.
I spoke to the other kid today and first apologized for losing my temper. I then asked him what led him to believe this. He proceded to tell me it just made since. Instead of getting angry again for not only his lack of knowledge but now his lack of common since, I took the advice from you guys, stayed cool, and suggested do some research about what a stone point can do ( I suggested he look here for that). He told me he would and that he'd tell me about what he found out tomorrow. I guess well see if he holds true to it.
...If it wasn't for "STONE" points .. Our branch on the family tree might not of grown... Think about that one !!!
There are guys on here that make sized, matched,weighted and super sharp points. You get what ya pay for once again. I would guess to get 6 weighted within 20 grains and sized to within an 1/8 inch would probably cost 30-40 bucks a head, maybe more for that many matched.
Sometimes it is hard to undo years of good advertising driven into the heads of people who choose not to think for themselves.
Hope yo u bring him venison jerky served on a stone fork. :bigsmyl:
If as you say, "I was just arguing to sharpen his and my own debate skills." Guess what?? You just lost!! You let someone push your buttons, and you blew your cool! Blowing up, getting personal, and losing your cool doesn't help you provide a positive view of your side of the discussion. It doesn't matter whether it's during a debate team exercise, a talk with the local tree hugger, the vegan down the street, or the ultra modern hunter, as soon as you get red faced, loud, or very defensive-they've got you.
Flint has killed more animals (and humans) than all types of commercially made broadheads combined!! Obsidian is one of the sharpest materials known, surpassing even a surgical scalpel. The placement of the point is more important than the material it's made from. A well placed shot kills quickly. A poorly placed shot is a slow death-almost inhumane-whether stone, fixed blade, or expandable.
Knap up a flint head for him as a gift and ask him to be careful handling it but to try the edge out. Once he sees how easy it is to cut himself he may have a different opinion on stone points.
Just tell him that, if Geronimo had shot a Bob Lee with Wensel heads, we would all be speaking some kind of native language. :biglaugh:
I see it this way. Stone points been used for 10's of thousands of years, The mech. points what 3 decades. Trad type Bows been used since the time The First man made one... Wheelie bows since the 60'eds. The best thing to do is go hunt with that person and let Him see first hand how Deadly a Stone Tip is..