All of the top three Longbow class winners at the major 2010 I.B.O. shoots used cedar arrows. These results show that they are the most accurate wood arrows. The scores these archers shot at these tournaments shows cedar arrows can be straightened within thousandths and will maintain it. Since arrow straightness is a primary factor for accuracy major consideration must be given it. "You've got to hit 'em to get 'em!'
Data
2010 I.B.O. National Triple Crown Winners
1st Dave Wallace, Marietta, OH, Elite parallel cedar arrow, Wallace Mountain longbow
2nd Talc Brewsaugh, Corinth, KY, Elite parallel cedar arrow, Miami Valley longbow
3rd Scott Wagner, Conesville, OH, Lost Nation parallel cedar arrow, Wagner Firewater longbow
2010 I.B.O. Traditional World Championship
1st Talc Brewsaugh, Corinth, KY, Elite parallel cedar arrow, Miami Valley longbow
2nd Ken Redding, Columbus, OH, Elite tapered cedar arrow, 21st Century longbow
3rd Dave Wallace, Marietta, OH, Elite parallel cedar arrow, Wallace Mountain longbow
2010 I.B.O. World Championship
1st Dave Wallace, Marietta, OH, Elite parallel cedar arrow, Wallace Mountain longbow
2nd Jack Rhudy, Damascus, VA, Elite parallel cedar arrow, TradTech Pinnacle longbow
3rd Scott Wagner, Conesville, OH, Lost Nation parallel cedar arrow, Wagner Firewater longbow
Keep up the good work Paul!! Those are some rankings you should be proud of. :thumbsup:
Way to go to the shooters and the arrow smithS. Nice job Paul. Elite and Lost nation hail from Michigan. Way to go guy's
I have just started getting into footed and tapered cedar shafts (I've shot parellel cedars since starting trad) and am thrilled with the way they fly. Why don't any of these guys shoot them?
I have arrows from Paul at Elite. They are by far the best woods arrows I have ever have. I have not had any from Lost Nation but I am assuming they are in the same class.
It is interesting that 8 out of 9 winners above shoot cedar arrows that are parallel? Everyone has always said the tapered would shoot more accurate?
Can someone explain why these winners are shooting parallel arrows? Thanks, Ken
Not trying to be negative or demeaning, but maybe they are just used to parallel and haven't tried anything else. I can't see why they wouldn't.
For me personally I have shot tapered cedar and tapered poplar and they both shot nice. The parallel cedars I'm shooting now shoot just as good for me. I will say I am getting better at my game but I'm still learning and not a arrow builder so this is just my nonprofessional opinion.
Scott wagner
I'm not sure it's really 8 out of 9 archers using parallel shafts.
There are actually only 5 individuals listed and 4 of them use parallel shafts.
Still, it is interesting that so many use parallel shafts.
Guy
Paul you Rascal! Let's go back to Tay's.
i am surprised they are using parallel shafts i would like to hear why from one of the shooters
IMHO - compared to other arrow woods cedar arrows have very fast recovery following the shot and generally, do not really need to be tapered to fly well.
On the other hand, hardwoods definitely benefit from being tapered on the nock end and will give better flight when tapered due to their stiffness and slower recovery.
How far the arrow shelf is cut into the riser will also play a role in how much benefit one gets from a tapered arrow.
Have a great 2010 hunting season!
Shoot straight, Shinken
The I.B.O. rules state that longbows in the longbow class must be cut 1/8" before center.
When an arrow shaft is tapered you are weakening this area so it can bend easier here. A bend in this area is the worst. It is for this reason most I.B.O. competitive shooters prefer parallel arrows over tapered. Straight arrows are a must for consistent accuracy.
Arrow Flynn
Like I said earlier I am still new to trad archery. I have been totally commited to trad archery for 5 years so I don't have the knowledge and experience that many do here on tradgang.
I have shot tapered shafts and they shot well. This year I have shot parallel cedar shafts and for me if they are spined. Right they will shoot right where they are pointed and the quicker they recover the better. The parallel cedars I shoot do these nicely, so I don't see the need for anything else but that might be part of my inexperience.
That's why I listen to someone with years of experience. Like Paul to help me. But for now they work for me.
Thank you for the clarification Paul that parallel cedars lead to more consistent accuracy!
That is an excellent point to keep in mind.
Keep the wind in your face!
Shoot straight, Shinken
Looks like I have to order from ELITE!!! :notworthy: :archer2:
I think you will find that in this case it is more of a mass weight vs FOC issue rather than cedar being better. Most shooting IBO shoot a lighter weight bow and prefer a lighter mass weight arrow, less down range drop,Cedar fits that bill . A 125 grain point on a 300 grain mass weight shaft will make more percentage front of center weight ratio than a 125 grain point on a heavier mass weight shaft would . For the heavier shaft you would have to add 200 grain point to have the same ratio. Tapered shafts do add the weight to the front 1/3rd by removing the mass weight in the back 1/3rd.
Maybe the title of this thread should be " Most accurate wood arrow for shooting light weight bows and IBO".
Thanks for clearing that up Ted. I had the same thoughts but don't compete so I had no idea if I was thinking right or not.
I think with the skill those folks have and the perfect form most any arrow they shot would be great for them. It is a very small cross section of the top shooters to try and draw a conclusion from
For me personalty last year I shot a three piece bow I made that was 57lb at 29. I don't think that is real light now days. For the Ibo traditional worlds last year they made a new set of rules that said if I wanted to shoot the long bow class I had to have a one or two piece bow.
I did make a lighter bow for it that was 52lb at 29. Over the season I did switch to lighter 410 grain arrows to try to be more competitive because the other top shooters were shooting lighter elite arrows which I think helped me get third at the Ibo worlds. Before I switched arrows though I placed first at Erie pa. With my 52lb bow shooting 570 gn cedars at about 154 fps. With 145 gn tips the same combination I hunt with.
As a side note I know competitive shooting isn't a favorable topic on tradgang but shooting 3d has made me a better shooter and shooting international bowhunting ass. Has realy put pressure on me and my equipment to be better shooter and hopefully a better hunter which is my real goal. Nothing make me sicker than a wounded animal and this has been a way I hope to be more accurate this season
Most I.B.O. competitive shooters shoot arrows that weigh ten grains per pound of the draw weight of their bow. Some shoot light bows but like Scott Wagner many shoot bows in the 50#-55# draw weight. Bows drawing this amount and arrows weighing ten grains per pound of a bows draw weight will kill any thing in North America especially when coupled with deadly accuracy. Most of the top I.B.O. shooters are also excellent hunters. i.e. Dave Wallace has taken moose, elk, mule deer, antelope and many whitetails with his longbow.
Where can I buy Elite parallel cedar arrows?? Thank you.
Legois, PM ZONKER. He is ELITE ARROWS. He has been at this game A LONG TIME and if he siad so, I would bank on it. His arrows are very nice.
Trophy takers and Champion makers for OVER FIFTY YEARS! Pauls a good guy to boot.
Chuck
wish I had the time and patience to tune woods again out of selfbows again,, especially top of the line 120.00 a doz woods.. Elite has been the best for years now his arrows are really THAT perfect!
I have had excellent results with Elite arrows! They are very straight and consistent.
I wish I had found this thread earlier. I had no idea Scott did so well. Congratulations.
Paul , not an argument on if 55# bows will kill anything in N.A. I agree on that , yes 50-55# is plenty , more on arrows. Not an argument on if IBO shooters are good hunters either, most are great hunters. But I will argue the subject of tapered not shooting as good as parallel arrows , basic physics , put 2/3 rds of the mass weight in the front of the shaft and you will improve arrow flight.
Just like a two foot string tied to a rock , throw the rock and what does the string do? Follows the rock.
Bottom line, there is nothing I know of scientific that will prove or back up the statement that parallel will shoot better than tapered, if there is please enlighten me.
This is a case of darn good shooters that happen to prefer parallel arrows.
Thanks larry.
Interesting thread. I've always "thought" that tapered arrows were more forgiving. I believe that putting matched equipment in the hands of skilled archers will make for accurate shooting and brand of bow or arrow doesn't make a difference as long as they are matched together, because a good shot is a good shot because of his/her skills and concentration.
I do know that my buddy Ron LaClair respects the heck out of Paul Jalon, his arrows and more importantly his knowledge on arrows. I'm still using some Acme premium shafting I got from the late John Grumley (son of Nels), but once those are gone I'll be looking to Paul/Ron to get more cedars.
Zonker has an agenda- selling more Elite arrows.
The most accurate wood arrow is the one that is perfectly matched to your bow, whether it's softwood, hardwood, tapered or parallel.
The difference in tapered vs. parallel are subtle. Tapered arrows recover from paradox a little more quickly, and tend to shoot flatter and harder because they lose less energy through flexing. Lighter tips from the tapering allow the ends of the arrow to stabilize more quickly, thereby reducing the oscillations more quickly.
I've won several State and Regional IBO and ASA championships shooting barreled hardwoods, and in my prime I regularly beat archers shooting aluminum and carbon, with both recurve and longbow. I shot the IBO World, and placed well. If I hadn't blown one set, I would have placed in the top five. The archers in Zonker's example are obviously very good, but this is far too small a sample size to draw any conclusions relative to the superiority of one arrow design over another.
I have an agenda, too. :)
I will second the quality of Elite arrows! Wonder if Paul ever found more purple nocks???
Paul Jalon writes: "The scores these archers shot at these tournaments shows cedar arrows can be straightened within thousandths and will maintain it. Since arrow straightness is a primary factor for accuracy major consideration must be given it."
I think Paul was stating that he liked cedar for it's straightness factor. I shot tapered and barrel tapered ash shafts from Silent Pond years ago. They were tough as heck but I was continually straightening them. The cedar shafts I'm using now and when I used Rogue River Archery cedar shafts straightened better and stayed straighter over the long haul than the ash shafts I was using.
I agree with Don Stokes comment that the above results don't constitute a scientific sample. It does tell me that some excellent archers had great results using Elite cedar arrows.
QuoteZonker has an agenda- selling more Elite arrows.
If you knew Paul you'd know that his agenda is making the very best arrow he can possibly make, he's very persnickety in matching up a set of arrows. You won't get arrows from him with a 5# range in spine, they'll be a 2# difference at most, and the same with weight and straightness he makes them as close as he possibly can.
Paul's an old fart like me who has reached the stage in life where quality is more important than quantity. With over 50 years of experience making wood arrows, there's nothing he doesn't know about his trade. There are other good arrowsmiths to be found but IMO you'll find none better than Paul.
The reason some I.B.O. shooters prefer parallel arrows over tapered is that the probability for an arrow to remain straight is with the parallel arrow. A tapered arrow has been weakened by removing some material to make the taper. Spine usually is only slightly reduced, but the area tapered has been slightly weakened.
Mr. Stokes, my agenda for this post is not selling arrows because as a sponsor I could have indicated the link to my site. I feel traditional equipment manufacturers should relate interesting considerations as they become available. The data I related was for 2010; however, if you want the sample size expanded. review the data from these tournaments for the last five years and there would be little variance in the results.
The goal post in major tournaments for longbow shooters using wood arrows has been raised quite a bit from several years ago. 70% of perfect was excellent then, today it is 80%.
Equipment operators play a major role in these results but their equipment is noteworthy.
I am surprised that there has been no discussion about the bows used by these archers.
There are many excellent wood arrow makers for archers to consider. Cedar is an excellent arrow shaft material to consider and Rose City, Raven Arrows and 3 Rivers (shafts produced exclusively for them) produce and sell them directly or through their dealers.
QuoteOriginally posted by Two Tracks:
Legois, PM ZONKER. He is ELITE ARROWS. He has been at this game A LONG TIME and if he siad so, I would bank on it. His arrows are very nice.
Trophy takers and Champion makers for OVER FIFTY YEARS! Pauls a good guy to boot.
Chuck
Thank you! I will PM him :)
For the record I in no way am attacking Paul, not sure how this thread keeps getting away from the main subject but it does.
Paul makes stunning arrows, heck I would love to have a few, Paul anytime you want to trade an arrow let me know. Like Ron said 50 years of arrow building can do nothing but teach you how to build great arrows, I submit to his record. The subject I was discussing is tapered vs parallel, Paul , if you know something solid about that, I dont know, I am all ears.
QuoteOriginally posted by ken denton:
It is interesting that 8 out of 9 winners above shoot cedar arrows that are parallel? Everyone has always said the tapered would shoot more accurate?
Can someone explain why these winners are shooting parallel arrows? Thanks, Ken
Ted, I think Paul only originally commented on cedar arrows and their accuracy. This post from Ken was where someone made the comment about tapered shafts and the discussion strayed from Paul's original post on cedar arrows in general.
QuoteIt is interesting that 8 out of 9 winners above shoot cedar arrows that are parallel? Everyone has always said the tapered would shoot more accurate?
Can someone explain why these winners are shooting parallel arrows? Thanks, Ken
I think Paul just answered that,
QuoteThe reason some I.B.O. shooters prefer parallel arrows over tapered is that the probability for an arrow to remain straight is with the parallel arrow. A tapered arrow has been weakened by removing some material to make the taper. Spine usually is only slightly reduced, but the area tapered has been slightly weakened.
Thanks for pointing that out Ray, you are correct.
Funny how things can go astray.
So maybe its not the arrow in this case but the shooter? probably does not matter what those are shooting material wise as long as they are straight and matched.
Paul (and Ron), I meant no disrespect. Having an agenda is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't doubt that Elite cedar arrows are excellent, but I think other arrows from other woods can be just as good when properly made.
I have had no problem with maintaining straightness with tapered hardwoods, but I have stayed with the lighter woods. Ash and hickory have a well-deserved reputation for needing regular straightening, and are just too heavy to suit me. My yellow poplar shafts make finished arrows in the 600-700 grain range, and stay straight and accurate. Tuning is the key to accuracy, just like it is with parallel shafts.
Relative to accuracy, I don't believe that perfect straightness in wood arrows is as critical to accuracy as straightness in tubular materials. I've proven that to my own satisfaction by extensive testing.
I said earlier that I have an agenda too, which is to try to get good information out to people with less experience. Practically all shafts were tapered before the advent of mass production. It's much easier and cheaper to make a parallel shaft than a tapered one. That doesn't necessarily mean that one is better than the other, but the general consensus for the last few centuries has been that tapered arrows have a performance edge.
I no longer manufacture or sell arrow shafts, so I don't have that kind of agenda. I'm just an opinionated guy who thinks he's seen and done enough to have an informed viewpoint. :)
I'm about to embark on my 48th season of bowhunting, 38 of which have been with longbow and/or recurve. I took a compound break for about 10 years in the 70's and 80's. Don't own one now. For the past 20 years I've shot wood exclusively, and I did extensive research, scientifically in a university setting, on wood arrow shaft materials before getting into manufacturing, so I think I can speak on the subject of wood arrow accuracy, which is the topic at hand. No offense or disrespect meant to anyone.
Right now I have about 6 dozen cedar arrows (thats a bunch for a guy who uses carbon as much as I do).
They all shoot perfectly out of the bows they were bought for.
They are ALL made by Paul Jalon. Superb quality.
Again Ron I have to disagree with that idea, I seriously doubt that a good quality arrow shaft made into a taper is going to weaken the shaft so much that it would shoot poorly, most tapered shafts are barely reduced in thickness , 23/64" and 11/32" to 5/16" . Now could that arrow be bent more easily , yes that is a potential possibility but a difference of 2-3 # spine from the same shaft going from 55# to 52# spine I doubt would make that arrow "slightly weakend" as the taper generally is tapered in the back 10" only and any force is distributed throughout the length of the shaft. Seems to me the FOC balance point advantage would offset any weakend taper.
After Ray pointed out what Paul had said , commenting on the fact of those shooting parallel cedar shafting and only that , not implying they were better I am sorry I chimed in, my apologies Paul. Good shooting
Good thread, I agree with Don, I think that getting good information out there is important.
My experience's are likewise over many years (44 years shooting traditional and I avoided the compound completely). My friend Tim Cosgrove from Kustom King indicated that when their shaft was tapered it lost about 3-4 lbs. of spine on the overall arrow. Not a lot. I've mostly used cedar shafting over the years. I tried some forgewood shafts (not the originals by Sweetland) and when I took them out of the sealed plastic bag they looked like snakes. I've used the Ash shafts above as well as some pine shafts (I forgot the brand/type) and all were not easy to straighten, nor would they stay straight like cedar. I did notice that when my tapered cedars did need straightening, that more often than not, it was the tapered portion that was tweeked. Perhaps that's what Paul is aluding too with the competitive shooters shooting non-tapered shafting. I do believe that if you match the shaft to the bow (like with bareshafting method) that whether or not the shaft was tapered that it will shoot with the same accuracy. However, I guess if I were in a competition where a few points might make the difference in my placing, I'd probably want to shoot the most accurate shaft that was least likely to 'get out of tune'. I've certainly shot slightly bent wood arrows and hit the kill zone on a deer at 20 yards, but no way could you do that with a aluminum or carbon arrow (as Don mentions above with his tubular arrow comment). However, would I have instead hit the 'ten ring' had that wood arrow been without a bend?? That's probably what we're ultimately talking about here and perhaps why in competition those guys are using the parrallel???