Sitting home watching North American Hunter and they had a Pro Tips section, female shooter using a Matthews Monster compound making a stupid statement about the need for speed. This is the kind of crap we don't need new archers to fall victim to. This makes my skin crawl. When are they going to realize that hunting is about the hunters skill not the equipment. Anyone can shoot a fast bow, but that is not a guarantee of a making the shot count.
The reason I bring this up is we as "trad" archers are not immune to the speed trip. I often see posts on how fast a bow/arrow combination is. The truth is simple, speed is not everything. Yes it's nice to have but make sure you aren't sacrificing something else just for a speed kick. To me performance and speed are not equal, speed is part of the equation not the answer.
Well said.
As stated above, well said..
Now the problem as I see it is "How to convince the newwer people to archery that this is true?
Hope we can come up with some answers...
Later....Buzz
I agree. The worst place to learn about archery is TV...let's face it they are there to sell product. If you don't sell speed, what else are the compound manufacturers going to sell this year.
The rest of the gadget industry has followed suit.
I see more poor penetration shots on TV now than ever before with these ultra fast bows and mech heads at close ranges. You'd think they would figure out it ain't working.
I agree but I also see a lot less of the speed hyp in the traditional comunity than I did 15-20 years ago.
I agree 100%. Watched a show this weekend and saw a well known hunter shoot a doe @ 50 yds with a compound. I just can't figure out why they do this and wonder how many animals these "Professional Hunters" wound, don't find and never get aired. I know all hunting shows are about $$$$$ but more than success they need to represent responsibility and ethics.
Just say'in...
Most of those shows are to sell the sponsors product, nothing more. Ethics and woodsman ship are lost in the production. There are a few good hunting shows,but darn few!!!
Speed is one of the few proformance factors that can be measured. If qualified properly by comparing equal gpp, it is an accurate measure of power between bows.
Speed KILS when it comes to driven cars, More so when the driver drinks..
Well placed arrows Kills when You take Your time and put it where it needs to go.
I shoot heavy arrows and My speed is slow, but I'm not shooting out past 20yards...
Guess it's up to us to set new archers straight when it comes to "BS". I'm not gonna bash wheelie bows in this thread but (they) are not the same animal..... :p
... mike ...
I totally agree.The sad part is we are the only ones who know this.And this thread will most likely be yanked.
Speed sells and most archers have bought into that theme. I don't have problems with speed as such. I do have problems with people who push that it takes the place of proper form and regular practice.
If I hear BBD one more time & will throw up? Mike
One of the biggest reasons I jumped back into trad hunting (aside from a mended rotator cuff injury and a removed bone spur on my bowhand thumb) is the sheer thrill of getting within spitting distance of game. That takes much more skill than using a laser rangefinder and putting the 60 yard pin on something, or shooting with a scope at 200 or 300+ yards from a centerfire rifle. I found out I love hunting way more than just killing stuff.
The problem as I see it is the "Them vs. US" mentality. It's in several of the posts here.
In my opinion archers are archers PERIOD! That includes longbow shooters, recurve shooters, compound shooter and even (gast!!!) crossbow shooters!
I'm not wanting to start an arguement here and won't post again on this thread, but I think this mentality causes more harm to archers in general then all the hunting shows combined.
You line 'em up and start by shooting light, fast spitwads at them. Then you throw heavy, slow bricks. Later, ask them which one hurts the most.
All that has been stated is so well said.In Canada we have Wild TV,it makes me sick with the exeption of Freddy Eichler.Its so sad to think of someone just starting out,watching all this and believing all the crap the manufactures and "Pros" are trying to push down there throat.There was a huge hunt-fest put on in Saskatoon co-sposored by Cabelas and Wild TV and my Son-in-law couldn't figure out why I refused to go,until I explained it all to him.
Even as a compound shooter I never liked the speed "PUSH", never made sense to me. My brother was just the opposite, he would trade bows for a few extra FPS in a heart beat, shot arrows so thin and light that you could barely see em in a quiver. Part of this was caused by a couple of misjudged distances and part by deer "jumping the string". Claimed the flatter trajectory and shorter time to target were all the benefit he needed to eliminate such pesky details. Now truth be told he needed to work on his range estimation and he had a bad habit of shooting at alert deer thus causing a great deal of his problem. Of course the Pros down at the local sporting goods store helped plant the speed seed and thats all it took.
One practice session he and I got together and he noticed a strange phenomenon, my compound bow was quieter... much quieter than his. We both hit the target where we were aiming, even did some silly shots like calling out an eye or the targets nose and hitting it. Also my big ole heavy lincoln log arrows were penetrating the target much deeper than his, had to explain some math at that point (mass X acceleration = force) since my arrow absorbed more of the bows energy and retained it better to the target, I saw the benefit of quieting my bow and achieving great penetration. As a con to my pros I also saw a degraded trajectory, time to target isnt really an issue if you shoot at deer that arent already coiled like a truck spring and ready to unload.
Now at the pro shop next years bows were still a mechanical marvel of synthetic materials and wheels and cables, no need to get a new one of those right. Oops!! The new model shoots 5 or 10 FPS faster!! They were selling the only thing that they could consistently improve on in the course of a single year. Not to mention at the range guys pulled out that shiney new bow and all eyes turned to the latest, greatest, fastest bow in the market and the owner had bragging rights. Didnt matter if he could or couldnt shoot well his bow was FAST!
One of the reasons I got back to traditional bows was because I grew tired of the hype and the mechanical beasts that bows had become. I am a journeyman millwright by trade and even I was wore out maintaining such a gross over statement of technology, so much to measure, so much to fail.
I have also noticed lately that the new trend with pro shops is to push the distance factor. Apparently because its fast you can also shoot far, would be nice if everyone who shoots that far were also accurate. Honestly Ive seen videos in the stores showing horrid shots at insane distances and then the glory performance later when they find the deer. Never see the tracking job it takes to get there except for the last 20 yards though.
Fact is they have to sell "easier" and "faster" and "farther" because telling the average consumer that its "hard" and "takes lots of practice" and "takes lots of time" isnt gonna sell many bows.
I agree with SteveB. Speed is a good measure of a bow's efficiency. A fast bow with a light arrow is also going to be a fast bow with a heavy arrow.
Some designs are better than others. Another "load of crap" in my opinion is the assumption that you have to give something up to get speed. It's not always an either/or proposition.
I agree, you don't need the fastest thing out there, but all things being equal, why would you WANT to choose the slower model?
What really made my hair stand up was on this uninformed tv show was the insistence by this so called expert that the ONLY way she would be able to tag an Elk was using the fastest bow possible. If that isn't an "Us vs Them" what is. The issue here is misinformation, information only meant to sell bows not harvest game.
In my opinion what happens when archers adopt this mantra is we develop archers based on equipment not skill, and that is the fastest way to put money in the Anti hunters bank.
I wish we can have archery shows that speak it as it is. I don't care if you use a compound, recurve, longbow etc. As long as you are DEADLY accurate. And once again being Deadly Accurate has absolutely Nothing to do with speed.
QuoteOriginally posted by LongStick64:
And once again being Deadly Accurate has absolutely Nothing to do with speed.
Unless, like me, you really struggle with distance judging, in which case a bow that shoots to the same point at 22 yards as it does at 15 is a great aid in 'Deadly Accurate' shooting.
I have to completely & utterly disagree here. Speed
is condusive to accuracy. It's absolutely not nescesarry for a killing shot, by any means, but the fact is that a flatter shooting projectile is inherently more accurate than one with a 'looping' trajectory.
Are my Morrisons fast? In comaparison to other traditional bows, absolutely. Compared to a compound? Not even close, but I'm not going to trade 'em out for something slower, just to be more 'trad' :D
Turkey.. lots of reasons. It feels better in my hand.. it looks better to my eyes, it is lighter / heavier, redder / greener. The bow might be made my me, a family member, a friend. It may have some significant meaning far and above "speed".
As long as I can hit with it, what difference does the speed mean ?
You know. . I used to speak of unity, of one group, archers. But I am losing that stance, more every year.
They are actually very little like me. Nearly nothing that they think and want and espouse mirrors what I feel. And to include crossbow shooters is not even a cute joke. They are totally different.
ChuckC
I bought my first bow from Dan Quillian and he had an answer for speed seekers."It doesn't matter how fast your arrow is if my arrow gets there first."I used to drive my nephew crazy shooting my longbow against his super fast overdraw compound bow.We'd stand 15 or so yards from the target and on "Go" we would raise our bows and shoot at the dot on the target.Guess who's arrow got there first?After lining up his peep sight his sight picture would include my arrow on the way to the target.He'd get frustrated and hurry to try and beat me and the results were his shot would be worse than mine even with all that technology to fall back on.
I think the big thing to remember here (This'll piss a few folks off....) is that probably 80%+ of bowhunters, are bowhunters for the 3 or 4 weeks of the year before gun season opens up. They have a 'gun' mentality that is ruled by FPS, FtLbs, KE, ME & all that other mathematical bobbins. The bowhunting shows on the idiot-box are aimed squarely at the gun-hunters who want to stretch their season, not the dedicated, year round, 4 season bowhunter.
Rob,
I agree with you that the Morrison bows are fast but are they advertised as such, does Bob post bow speeds, you know the answer, no he doesn't. Go to most compound bow sites and the first thing they hit you with is speed. It's as if speed alone is all you need. The value of a few fps does help with range estimation, with some people. Consider this, most on this site have a number of bows on their rack, does anyone adjust their form in any way to shoot them. I would say they probably vary in speeds, doesn't mean we change an aspect of our form.
I can't tell you how many times I'm approached at the range on what speed am I shooting, very rarely do I get any other question. The only other question I get is how do I hit the bullseye without a sight. Ugh.
mickeys4 you took the words right out of my mouth, dan quillins comment was what i was thinking. we all know there is far more that goes into killing an animal than the soeed of an arrow once it leaves the bow. my blackwidow is faster than the old bows but they have been killing animals for years. i wonder what ishi would say, or the mongolians for that matter. for her comment, forest gump comes to mind, stupid is as stupid does. :banghead:
QuoteOriginally posted by ChuckC:
Turkey.. lots of reasons. It feels better in my hand.. it looks better to my eyes, it is lighter / heavier, redder / greener.
ChuckC
Apparently you missed the "all things being equal" part of my statement.
My point is and was, when it comes to bows, speed and good manners are not mutually exclusive. You can have them both.
QuoteOriginally posted by robtattoo:
I think the big thing to remember here (This'll piss a few folks off....) is that probably 80%+ of bowhunters, are bowhunters for the 3 or 4 weeks of the year before gun season opens up. They have a 'gun' mentality that is ruled by FPS, FtLbs, KE, ME & all that other mathematical bobbins. The bowhunting shows on the idiot-box are aimed squarely at the gun-hunters who want to stretch their season, not the dedicated, year round, 4 season bowhunter.
:thumbsup: Presidential elect Robtattoo :clapper:
QuoteOriginally posted by cartman308:
In my opinion archers are archers PERIOD! That includes longbow shooters, recurve shooters, compound shooter and even (gast!!!) crossbow shooters!
There's a good reason they always used to put the genoese crossbowmen up front in a battle .....
I'm just sayin ..... ;)
:biglaugh:
I've read a lot of well intended people here rant about TV shows and how the NEW bowhunters know nothing of our sport or "our ways" of doing things, and you are correct, BUTTTT if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Teach a young person or any person for that matter, the way of our sport. IBEP courses, boy scout outings, school groups, archery clubs anywhere. If this place is the only forum that anybody uses then we are doomed to go the way of the dinosaurs. Sorry for the rant but c'mon guys we need to be pro-active.
As far as speed, well the widow shoots a pretty arch out past 40 yards. Arch as in Arch--ery.
I wish I had a longbow or recurve with 80% let off or a full shoulder stock and a scope! I'm in it to challenge myself and find the spirit of my forefathers. I have done the wheels and tech stuff and it's like on line dating(no rejection if you lie about yourself).I like the thrill of the chase,and the feel of buckskin briefs. :archer2:
Bill
I'm a big believer that change comes from the top, leaders lead so others can follow. This is a forum in my opinion of leaders, this is the starting point.
I agree we need to be proactive but keep it in perspective here. No one here has the ability to mass advertise like the big compound companies can, any small grassroots movement here is up against almost every archery shop trying to make a buck. Safe to say 99% do so by selling compounds. Compounds that in recent years are promoted based on speed.
I'll say that I don't have anything against compound bows, they have their place and account for more bowhunters/archers in the United States than traditional bows. The majority usually wins.
I have a yew longbow that is way faster than the Matthews bows I have seen. I can put two arrows in a deer at 25 yards before they even hit anchor on their first arrow. I don't need them to stop and pose for pictures either. There is something extremely limiting about a shooting system that one can only use when the setup is as perfect as a foam deer target placed in that just right position. The deer we shoot have a way of not being very cooperative, I need equipment that allows me to be flexible. Ever notice how wheelie guys don't carry their bows when they are walking around seeing who they can crowd out on public land during the deer season? Happens here all the time.
It is because they know that they have no chance of shooting anything. Just last year I saw them walking around, they were later telling me how people walking around are moving all the deer out. When I asked why no bows? They acted like they had never heard of such a thing, mid day scouting with a bow in your hand, how absurd.
I wonder if they were the ones that stole my tree stands.
As long as the arrow is fast enough to get effective penetration I'm going to be more concerned with how loud my bow is. Bottom line, until your bow is faster than the speed of sound you are arguing a mute point.
About the guys shooting deer at 50 yds., if you're going to shoot something that far away why not gun hunt? Isn't that kinda the point in bow hunting, to get close.
I read somwhere once.. "until the arrow is faster than the speed of sound, a quiet bow is alot more deadly than a loud fast bow" I couldnt' aggree more!! Jason
. off topic...removed comments..ac
Well said, speed is nothing the only thing that matters is shot placement and knowing your equipment.
When I was shooting compound I would get into the discussion with some over the speed when talking about my gear "they'd say You're only getting *** out of it?" "why have such a heavy arrow when you can have a lighter one & go faster."
Well I'm done with that, the only time I discuss my bows speed is only that it doesn't need to be that fast to get there, just as long as I hit what I was aiming for.
Shoot I only look at the speed of my bow to see if I'm consistent shot after shot.
My arrows go all the way through deer. How much faster do they need to be?
My arrows go all the way through deer. How much faster do they need to be?
Turkeys. . . no I didn't miss it. We always say those words but in reality, all things are not equal. almost ever.
Unless the thing is a total dog, speed in not one of the things I care about. I have no idea what fps my lil arrows are going downrange and I really don't care. They get there. . . eventually.
ChuckC :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Flesner:
My arrows go all the way through deer. How much faster do they need to be?
The effectiveness of your rig is measured by the distance on the other side of the deer the arrow falls after complete penetration! :eek: :D
I own 2 compounds and 6 traditional bows. My speed freak compound came from the factory tested certified documentation at 342fps. Just setting it up was a task. Tuning up the dropaway rest for centershot and timing for fletching clearence I had to call the factory tech twice. Usually your string lines up with your sight pins, but not on binary cams with mild lean at full draw. Then try finding an arrow with enough spine to handle the energy produced. Now drawing the bow with its speed cams is like bending a piece of iron until you hit the let off valley. The slightest twitch, torque, or fault in your form dramatically effects arrow flight in theese fast bows. It takes skill,stamina and knowledge to master theese bows. I love bowhunting and archery all aspects of it. I have enjoyed traditional archery since the day my Grandfather gave me my first bow a Wing Gull. Nowadays I enjoy my Hybrid Longbow. Sure I own a couple of faster shooting recurves but this one just fits me and I shoot it well. I like fast but I like forgiving, comfortable, light, quiet, attractive, accurate etc. You have to make compromises to find what best suits you. Being said no matter what equipment you choose it takes practice, skill, and experience to hunt with.
I'm much more concerned about the decision making of people who hunt with bows than I am their choice of equipment and accessories.
Personally, I like speed IF the bow is quiet, stable, and durable.
I'm a bit odd here but the reputation of the bow maker or company is also important to me. I am drawn most to companies that support the future of archery, and there aren't very many of these.
An ethical bowhunter needs to be proficient with equipment,use super-sharp broadheads, make proper shoot/don't shoot decisions, follow all game laws, be respectful of landowners, and know how to recover bow-shot game. If a bowhunter is deficient in these areas he may be hurt, arrested, and/or do harm to bowhunting's reputation.
I think some of the TV and Magazine bowhunters put out sound information based upon their experience or that of others. Surely some of the available videos and articles have shortened the learning curve for many new bowhunters. I think some of the personalities are irresponsible when they leave the impression that certain types of shots are ok for the average person (long shots, running shots, poor angles, etc.)they are steepening the learning curve. The naive bowhunter might try some of these things without proper practice or experience and fail-dramatically!
My pet peeve is when authors feel it necessary to buck widely accepted bowhunting truths just to create a niche market for themselves and their ideas. I won't name names but "famous" bowhunters who are strong proponents of butt shots, running shots, long shots, etc. bother me a lot. Can these shots be made? Of course they can. Do they have high odds for success...not for most of us. Proponents will say you won't get good at these shots if you don't try. I ask, how many wounded animals and day-long tracking jobs must occur to teach me?
Something I've always believed. I would rather do almost anything other than spend an entire day or more tracking a poorly hit game animal. I believe folks who take risky shots don't spend the proper amount of energy and time tracking poorly hit animals..they just go shoot another one. A lost animal eats at me for a long time.