Post by: L. E. Carroll on August 19, 2010, 03:24:00 AM
I sort of aggree with all that he has to say.. I'm wondering if others have read the article and your thoughts?
I must admit however, that I hunt private property [ same two ranches for years] for Mule Deer and do have the owners permission to "retrieve" deer with an ATV as long as I stay out of his winter wheat... I'm almost 60, have COPD and run out of air quick with exertion. :( I do not use it as a means of hunting. Would that be permissable with your idea of trad hunting our not? :dunno:
Gene
Post by: wapitimike1 on August 19, 2010, 05:09:00 AM
Post by: vtmtnman on August 19, 2010, 05:17:00 AM
I've noticed since I've started browsing trad forums and magazines that trad is like a religion to most.Lots of folks that are always trying to tell other folks what's making hunting too easy and what is trad this and that.Really getting on the side of old.
You'll notice those same folks that try and tell you whats making hunting too easy or what's not trad aren't using selfbows and stone points with only a burlap sack for clothing. ;)
Use what you want as long as it's legal.Hunting and archery are fun for me because I use what I want. :thumbsup:
Post by: ishoot4thrills on August 19, 2010, 05:34:00 AM
Yes, there's lots of "more traditional than thou" and "trad police" folks out there ready to jump on us folks who use carbon arrows, trail cams, and us that actually may see the point of the arrow and use it as a crude aiming device, heaven forbid! (I don't own a trail cam but I plan on buying one someday!)
Must we float to our favorite hunting spot via homemade birch bark canoe, with our solid wood yew longbow and cane arrows with stone points, wearing buckskin covering and a coonskin cap to be accepted by some hard core trad preacher? Give me a break.
So it's not okay for us to shoot carbon arrows and use GPS devices but it's okay for them to fly in an airplane, that may use GPS navigation, to a remote hunting spot in Alaska and use a motor boat to get to their said hunting location? And who also booked their guide online before boarding the plane? Some bash using any technology in trad archery and then use the internet to advertise their archery products at the same time. I don't get it, I guess.
Post by: Mudd on August 19, 2010, 06:44:00 AM
Some one else sees something exactly the same as I do!! How scary is that? Way!! I'd say!!
vtmtnman quote "I've noticed since I've started browsing trad forums and magazines that trad is like a religion to most."
That quote has a real ring of truth in it!
It's like we are telling others "you can be considered "Traditional" as long as you do it like me or look like me or believe the way I do.
I'm figuring out that I'll never be good enough to to fullfill someone Else's definition of what "tradional" is... and that's ok!!!
I am the the son of "The King" and He sets the rules for me and has my measurement. I am assured daily, "I am enough... of whatever!" and so are you and you don't need me or anyone else telling you what the standard is for you!! Period!!
I am told to "Go and sin no more!" How I do that is... practice it daily.
God bless,Mudd
PS: By definition, "to sin" is "to miss the mark"... How cool is that? Way! I'd say!!!!
Post by: stevewills on August 19, 2010, 06:56:00 AM
Post by: Steve O on August 19, 2010, 07:02:00 AM
Post by: STEVE R. on August 19, 2010, 07:23:00 AM
Post by: owlbait on August 19, 2010, 07:24:00 AM
Post by: J. Holden on August 19, 2010, 07:24:00 AM
-Jeremy
Post by: David Mitchell on August 19, 2010, 07:28:00 AM
Post by: cbCrow on August 19, 2010, 07:43:00 AM
Post by: SELFBOW19953 on August 19, 2010, 07:47:00 AM
Personally, I don't use carbon arrows, scent lock, cover up sprays, bait, or ATVs because I think it gives me an unfair advantage over my quarry. I have no problems with people who do use them (even though I think some of the claims are BS). That's MY way of doing it, and I don't expect anyone else to "do as I do". I do not/will not impose my beliefs on another hunter. I do, however, expect anyone who hunts to be honest, fair, and ethical.
Post by: mscampbell75 on August 19, 2010, 08:05:00 AM
For me it's a PERSONAL challenge in what type of gear I use. Wheather it is "TRAD" enough to someone else has never crossed my mind. If someone wants to use every gagdet known to man to hunt with, it is no skin off my back. It is thier right as long as it is within the law.
Post by: mrpenguin on August 19, 2010, 08:08:00 AM
Recently I saw a product at Cabela's that just make me shake my head... a tree stand umbrella... frankly if you need an umbrella to go hunting, maybe you should just stay home....
I think that's what these gentlemen are referring to as they discuss 'traditional'.
And for the record, anyone who does not bring a cell phone into the woods today is not thinking straight. Accidents happen. Getting lost happens. That phone can easily save your life. I consider it essential survival gear.
Post by: ron w on August 19, 2010, 09:11:00 AM
Post by: chopx2 on August 19, 2010, 09:21:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by David Mitchell:David, I have to disagree. I think getting lost is very traditional. I've been doing it for decades :p
--nothing trad about getting lost.
Sorry, thought the thread needed some lightening up. :bigsmyl:
Post by: Daz on August 19, 2010, 09:34:00 AM
With that comes knowledge through imagery and presentation. A guy on a quad with the latest technology out in the woods is seen more and more as being representative of what a hunter is, and that coupled with higher kill ratios will send a message to everyone (game managers included) that hunting needs to be curbed,banned, or at the least special archery opportunities reduced.
Non hunters don't see the larger picture, they just hear that hunters use radios to communicate locations of game, and use lighted nocks to make easier shots, and are too lazy to walk...Again perceptions at large.
My go-to guy for mountaineering info is a non-hunter who is almost an anti-hunter. He supports me in what i do because he feels that the way i hunt (on foot, longbow, pack in/pack out) is the last vestige of "honest hunting" (his words). His views are representative of many outdoors oriented folks our age i've met, and these folks vote and donate time and money to causes.
Cell phone in the woods...wow...i don't even get cell service in my YARD!
Post by: Brad_Gentry on August 19, 2010, 09:38:00 AM
Post by: Running Buck on August 19, 2010, 09:46:00 AM
Post by: ChuckC on August 19, 2010, 09:47:00 AM
There is room on this earth (so far at least) for white kids and black kids and yellow kids and green kids. . . and bowhunters too, traditional and otherwise.
You know, I really wish Webster's would put in a definition so we can all agree on what it really means. Hmmm I think I will write a letter..
ChuckC
Post by: Danny Rowan on August 19, 2010, 09:52:00 AM
Post by: Mike Gibbs on August 19, 2010, 10:03:00 AM
Driving a motorized vehicle to the hunt location is an absurd argument. It's what you do in the woods after you get there that brands you in the minds of others for what type of hunter you are. Such attituted do not hurt you; you could and should continue your way.
For all the attitutes, opinions, and comments, it still comes down to the difficulty level a gadget user faces, as compared to a hunter who scorns such aids.
Practicality and safety devices don't facilitae the taking of game, unless you abuse those devices, i.e. cellphones. ("Hey Bart, there's a deer coming down the ridge toward you.") There's no safety reason to put up trail cams or to put out food plots. But if that's your thing, if that's how you enjoy your time afield, it matters not what others think. There are too many deer most places anyway. Heck, shoot 'em out of a helicopter with a bazooka, I don't care, but don't label your methods as hunting skill. Your skills are lacking if you need devices.
Post by: ron w on August 19, 2010, 10:19:00 AM
Post by: centaur on August 19, 2010, 10:36:00 AM
Post by: huntin_sparty on August 19, 2010, 10:44:00 AM
Anyhow I like many of G. Freds articles and have books and dvds but disagree here. I personally dont use GPS (unless in bigger woods), ATV, my cell phone to alert others of game or some of the other items discouraged as "easy".
I do use trail cams and my cell phone.
But for differently than he described in the article for my laziness.
I would love to live in the middle of farm land or the woods and scout everynight after dinner. But due to supporting a family have to work and live in the city my closest spot to hunt is a hour and 20 minutes away. Throw in 45 to 55 hours of work, 2 kids under 8 y/o school and sporting events all equals less time in the woods than I would like!
Enter trail cam it keeps me in the woods all year even if I can only scout and stump a couple times a month due to my location.
Cell phone as mentioned from others if I fall out of a treestand and am hanging from my safety harness (maybe I shouldnt use cause its not trad enough and real men fall out of trees!)comes in handy.
Also I own my own business so those of you who have run your own business realize that you never have a off day and problems arise that employees wont take care of and unfortunately the phone is needed so disgruntled clients can be taken care of by the boss.
I think this do it my way only or dont do it is a reason for hunter numbers to drop!
Just my opinion and useage your miles may vary
Post by: Daz on August 19, 2010, 10:47:00 AM
Things like map and compass use, basic survival skills, and a bit of thirst for adventure. While there is no need to suffer needlessly, a certain air of the unknown, and the mystery of what lies over the next hill without a guarantee is part of what makes the wilderness great.
If we want to pry kids off of the couch and away from the world of video games and texting, we won't do it by offering mundanity.
Post by: Bowmania on August 19, 2010, 10:50:00 AM
Bowmania
Post by: smoke1953 on August 19, 2010, 10:55:00 AM
Post by: mrpenguin on August 19, 2010, 11:01:00 AM
There is no doubt that there are elitists in trad bowhunting. There is no doubt that there are blood-thirsty techno "arrow-launching-device" hunters as well... I think the essence here is that folks choose to hunt how they choose to hunt. IMHO, the more technology you use, the more you diminish the hunting experience itself. I would not choose to use an ATV (though in CT its not really necessary). I do not use GPS (again in CT, walk straight for a bit and you WILL hit a road or house eventually). I do not think that folks using technology for the sole purpose of more easily killing, well, I am not sure that is trad... by more easily killing I mean sacrificing woodsmanship and interaction with Nature for technology that takes you out of the woods.
This mainly because trad is TRADITIONAL, meaning the way it used to be done. But again, this is JUST MY OPINION. And keep in mind that I have hunted with compounds in the past (a fast one too).
Post by: yukon chuck on August 19, 2010, 11:14:00 AM
That being said...shoot what is legal and ehical, but most importantly remember to HAVE FUN.
Post by: Eugene Slagle on August 19, 2010, 11:18:00 AM
Out to a certain distance which is also up to my max hunting distance I'm mostly a split vision shooter but beyond that I gap aim because I do see the point of my arrow so to me why not.
I use a GPS when ever I'm tracking a shot animal, you can return to a known location just by going in reverse on those things & it does help but otherwise it stays in the truck.
I'll grab my Arctic Cat 300 ATV to help me get my deer & any others that is out there for my buddies because I like to go a long distance from my truck & that's a lot of hauling when many a times I'm alone, but it too stays in the bed of my truck till I need it.
Now the cell phone issue, I'm on the fence with that one because I don't mind letting a hunting partner know that there is a deer coming his/her way when it was out of my range but in any other aspect of them I tend to leave mine in my pocket till I may need it to get help.
In my thoughts it should be up to the person on what technique, or technology they take & use during a hunt because just like our ancestors did, when there was something better that worked for them come out they used it to the best of their abilities.
Post by: oxnam on August 19, 2010, 11:40:00 AM
I hope his article encourages people to embrace the challenges and rewards of a simpler style of hunting and not simply bashing technology or insulting those that may elect to use it. We are all hunters tapping into the past and loving the challenge at what ever stage we may find ourselves.
I was flipping through Caveman Magazine and you can't believe the rants in there about us traditional archers. The thought that we would fling an arrow at a defenseless animal is appalling when we could be reeeaaally traditional and just sneak up on them and wack them over the head with a club. I guess we have a long way to go and aren't very traditional at all.
Post by: COMPOUNDLESS IN CONCRETE on August 19, 2010, 11:59:00 AM
I shoot a recurve with carbon arrows and feathers. Not real trad according to some, plenty trad for me. I'm happy for anyone that shoots a trad bow or self bow or even a compound and enjoys it. After all, its their choice what they shoot and if they are having fun who am I to tell them they are wrong in their equipment choices.
I do not dress up like robin hood or the guys on "The Holy Grail" and go to renaissance fairs. Some people do and if they like that kind of hobby/lifestyle, more power to them. I don't use trail cams cause their expensive, lighted nocks are illegal in WA, and if I can't afford a trail cam I definately can't afford an atv. If someone can and uses all of the above and it is legal. Thats their choice. I would probably use all of the above for one thing or another but never all of them all the time. As far as cell phones and gps units, if you have ever been lost lost, like I was once several years ago with no cell phone or gps, you would welcome any form of electronic assistance out there and worry about the trad police later.
Post by: bolong on August 19, 2010, 12:22:00 PM
Post by: joebuck on August 19, 2010, 12:53:00 PM
Post by: owlbait on August 19, 2010, 12:58:00 PM
Post by: oxnam on August 19, 2010, 01:00:00 PM
I think it is always good to evaluate how we hunt and his article has spurred a valid discussion.
Post by: Whip on August 19, 2010, 01:03:00 PM
Post by: Eugene Slagle on August 19, 2010, 01:17:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Whip:To be honest I'm responding to this thread & have not recieved my copy of TBH yet.
I'm just curious. Have all of you who have posted actually read the article? Or am I the only one still waiting for the most recent issue?
Post by: L. E. Carroll on August 19, 2010, 01:25:00 PM
Guess I should have went on a bit.. I was actually asking those who may have had a chance to read the article... Fred was saying that trail cameras may in some way be equated to High Fence hunting, ie taking the guess work out of hunting a specific area. In that, one knows before hand that the deer is in the area and that we just need to find him or wait for him to walk by.. as to cell phones, no mention was made as to carrying them for safety reasons ...but for their use as in a hand held radio of alerting a person that you may be hunting with, of "a deer comming your way".
These were the specific issues I had been considering when I first started this post :wavey: :coffee:
Post by: oxnam on August 19, 2010, 01:32:00 PM
Post by: huntin_sparty on August 19, 2010, 02:11:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by L. E. Carroll:Agree giving the heads up via phone or walkie talkie not too sporting but in full disclosure I hunt by myself so I hope I dont start calling to alert myself or I have more issues to add to the list! :biglaugh:
Guys
Fred was saying that trail cameras may in some way be equated to High Fence hunting, ie taking the guess work out of hunting a specific area. In that, one knows before hand that the deer is in the area and that we just need to find him or wait for him to walk by.. as to cell phones, no mention was made as to carrying them for safety reasons ...but for their use as in a hand held radio of alerting a person that you may be hunting with, of "a deer comming your way".
These were the specific issues I had been considering when I first started this post :wavey: :coffee:
The trail cam to high fence disagree, those animals many times are passing through and not guaranteed in the area like a high fence enclosure.
Post by: Orion on August 19, 2010, 03:39:00 PM
For example, ATVs allow folks to get where they wouldn't or couldn't go on foot, at least not in the same amount of time. In short, they are eliminating any sanctuary cover animals may have.
Game cameras tell us where and when to hunt. Without them, you wouldn't know that Mr. Big passes by that broken down Oak tree about 4 p.m. most afternoons. More than likely you wouldn't even know he's there without a camera.
GPSs also tend to reduce the sanctuary of the game hunted, because before their use, many folks wouldn't or couldn't go deep enough to find the game, or get back to it easily.
The list goes on. In deciding to use or not use a new piece of technology and/or hunting practice (baiting and food plots, for example) I ask myself, does it tip the scales away from the balance of fair chase. If it does, I don't use it. :archer2:
Post by: bigiron on August 19, 2010, 04:53:00 PM
Post by: owlbait on August 19, 2010, 04:59:00 PM
Post by: Gary Logsdon on August 19, 2010, 05:11:00 PM
Post by: Gen273 on August 19, 2010, 05:16:00 PM
Post by: arky714 on August 19, 2010, 06:10:00 PM
Post by: ChuckC on August 19, 2010, 06:55:00 PM
We all have the right to do what we want. You wanna use all that technology go for it. I have no right to say you can't (yet anyway). But this appears to be typical of this generation, and yeah you don't have to be 20 to be included.
We as human beings have tended to make machines and technology do all of our work. Make it easy, make it fast. Some of us really want to do it ourselves. Some of us get pride in doing it our way, our selves. You get your kicks your way. . go for it. I will do it my way.
I do not ride a quad to my tree, though I have one and have used it in Wyoming in place of a truck, to get to another area away from the rest of the group (who were in the truck) and park along the road to walk in... I don't own a trail camera, I am making a food plot on my property, but I am not gonna hunt over it. . its for the critters. I am not better than you, but I do what I do cause that entertains me and makes me feel good.
Some folks appear to be complaining about the Trad Police.. it goes both ways. You know, the original modern iteration of the term "traditional" in archery meant using a bow that is not a compound bow, that's it... it had nothing to do with me wearing leather or plaid, or sending smoke signals, riding a mule to work or any of that silly stuff. It was a way to distinguish between the stuff compound toters do and what we tend to do. That's what Compton's is all about.
It remains that there are levels of immersion into this endeavor. . into hunting... go as deeply as you want and let others do their own thing.
Fred is a writer... his job, or that part of it is to write stories that entertain in some fashion and maybe to get us to think.
Agree, disagree, whatever, but this has sure been entertaining. I guess what he wrote worked.
ChuckC
Post by: ishoot4thrills on August 19, 2010, 07:07:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by ChuckC:No one is saying they want to use "all that technology". We're just saying that people should lighten up just a bit about knocking such things as carbon arrows and, quoting G. Fred in one of his ads, "fancy aiming systems", trail cams(which most people I know use as entertainment and to see if any big bucks actually live where they hunt), and such things as GPS devices, which aren't they really just compasses with batteries?
At risk of alienating EVERYBODY..... well except maybe Orion cause I really feel the same way.
We all have the right to do what we want. You wanna use all that technology go for it. I have no right to say you can't (yet anyway).
ChuckC
Post by: ChuckC on August 19, 2010, 07:19:00 PM
It is just talk. You believe Black Widow bows are awesome, I think they are just bows (note. . I just made that up, I have no idea if you really like BW bows).
It is just talk.
ChuckC
Post by: Hookeye on August 19, 2010, 07:38:00 PM
;)
Post by: Gray Buffalo on August 19, 2010, 07:41:00 PM
God Bless and have a safe season. Jerry
Post by: vtmtnman on August 19, 2010, 08:27:00 PM
I have not read the article yet nor am I slamming G Fred Asbell.I enjoy his articles.It just ircks me when ever we get started on the whole what is trad/is there to much tech thing.
It's not religion,it's a method of hunting.I'm not giving up my wheeler,GPS,Carbons,cell phone or anything else just to be more trad.If any of you are you have my respect.I do find myself slowly regressing in archery.Recurve/compound/recurve...carbons-tin cans-woodies.Next will be a selfbow at some point.I think by the time I die I will be using rocks to kill deer. :D
Let's all go hunting already.You can tell it's off season for us all. :campfire: :archer:
Post by: PAPA BEAR on August 19, 2010, 09:22:00 PM
Post by: jsweka on August 19, 2010, 09:26:00 PM
Let's be honest. The reason why trail cams, gps, cell phones, lighted nocks, etc. were invented was to make life (and hunting) easier. If they didn't make things easier and increase your odds of success there wouldn't be a market for them and they wouldn't exist.
I'm not busting on folks who use such devices as long as it's legal and ethical. "Legal" is written in the game laws. Ethical is up to the individual and will vary from place to place and hunter to hunter. If you're using your cell phone to alert others to game movement in real time, to me that is unethical. If your putting a waypoint into your gps to mark a scrape or rub line, that is no different than penciling in an X on a topo map - just a different media.
Like I said I haven't read the article yet, but I think I will tend to agree with G Fred for the most part. And the I totally agree with the post from Daz on page 2 of this thread.
Post by: Sant-Ravenhill on August 19, 2010, 09:36:00 PM
A big state, very little law enforcement, and even when you report it, the report just disappears.
As far as the rest, I know lots of people that are digital natives. Especially those under age 30. They would rather be dead than not have at least 5 electronic devices with them at any given time.
I would not be the least surprised to see someone with their laptop, Blackberry etc., on stand or in their ground blind, busy accessing the internet, texting or playing games or???
You should hear the moans and groans from scouts when they can't have their electronics with them on a camping trip.
To me, you really lose the whole bowhunting/nature experience when you have to be connected constantly.
Post by: Sam McMichael on August 19, 2010, 09:49:00 PM
Post by: LITTLEBIGMAN on August 19, 2010, 10:08:00 PM
I think Fred makes some very valid points.
Perhaps its hitting too close to home for some ?
We all tend to get lazy, admit it. I think the article is well timed and give me lots of food for thought.
I think I'll go scouting now instead of setting out a camera to do it for me...............
Post by: Lowrider on August 19, 2010, 10:10:00 PM
Post by: Bill Kissner on August 19, 2010, 10:13:00 PM
Post by: ti-guy on August 19, 2010, 10:57:00 PM
Post by: SteveB on August 20, 2010, 12:13:00 AM
Post by: Overspined on August 20, 2010, 12:13:00 AM
Post by: Overspined on August 20, 2010, 12:21:00 AM
Post by: amar911 on August 20, 2010, 01:44:00 AM
Allan
Post by: Thumper Dunker on August 20, 2010, 02:04:00 AM
Post by: Brian Krebs on August 20, 2010, 02:37:00 AM
One person here implied its stupid to hunt without a cell phone- well there is no cell phone coverage here - so why does carrying one make me smart?
I don't hunt one spot; one farm; one 100 acre bit of land- I hunt an area that is huge; with all kinds of different habitat.
The weather has been different this year - more than ever before; the game are moving differently; and in different areas; and there is mr wolf out there: confusing things even more.
I remember a long time ago - when my observations about deer vocalizations were laughed at- ( a buck snort is the result of a hunter eating too many beans - does snort - but deer make NO other noises).
I remember talking to a friend about how smart the whitetails were; and another guy walking up and telling us we were fools; because deer were animals and " animals don't think!".
Now see that guy grew up on his great grampas farm; and in doing the planting and harvesting and such- upon a fenced in five square mile acreage of farm land-- over time-- had figured out where to sit to shoot a big buck.
And by god and golly if you didn't shoot a big buck in the first ten minutes of light- you were no hunter !!
Everyone went to the bar and burned their doe tags - because it was just plain stupid to shoot a doe; well not stupid; but it was more like being a communist.
Putting out a trail camera and seeing what animals are in an area; it is fascinating to me; and yet I do not believe it will help me take a deer.
Oh yeah the Lakowskis can put up a 100 trails cameras on their sections of private land; and come up with big deer ranged at 60 yards; with their bows they carry into the woods in bras - and wear scent proof clothing 30 feet up in a tree. They are getting more and more boring- and insulting the average person that hunts public land.
In my traditional bowhunting I try and keep it simple; I am not shooting a self bow; I do not have the opportunity to have a bow come apart and make another - because our seasons are not year around like the native americans were.
So - I have fiberglass on my bow to insure it won't break.
I make my own wood arrows; practice a lot; scout with binoculars; look for tracks; look for deer; elk and bear sign; and I am hunting to my potential.
I for one remember when Asbell didn't carry a years worth of emergency food in the form of belly fat with him on his traditional bowhunts. :bigsmyl:
I remember him glueing razor blades onto his broadheads for more cutting area- the Indians didn't do that did they Fred?
I think Alaskas HAARP must be running; we are biting at ourselves over nothing.
I think it is fine to draw lines in the sand about our conduct in the field; and about our equipment limitations.
But really - sitting all day in a woodlot in Iowa is NOT like hunting all day in the mountains; and to put limitations on anything other than using common sense and the adherence to the main thought of what traditional bowhunting is - is fair to one and not to another.
Chewing on Freds leg for expressing his beliefs is not right; his trying to help us and traditional bowhunting is a good thing.
And all Fred has been doing is trying to help us get the most from our experiences traditional bowhunting.
Lets not shoot the messenger.
Post by: Kevin Dill on August 20, 2010, 06:30:00 AM
We'll be carrying or using...
Mapping GPS
GMRS Radios
Satellite Phone
Digital Cameras
Digital Camcorders
Sitka Gear
Kifaru Gear
Ultra-modern Longbows
Electric Fence
Super Cub Airplane
Doesn't sound very "trad" does it?
Post by: John3 on August 20, 2010, 06:55:00 AM
Looking for and buying every "advantage" is a personal thing driven by the TV "pro-hunters" Lee & Tiff and of course Waddell and many others.
I went traditional (many years ago) because I grew weary of all the gadgets.
Spend your money and have a great time bowhunting. More power to you but remember you don't NEED all that stuff! Being a better than average bowhunter is about experience and woodsmanship...
Post by: Steve O on August 20, 2010, 06:55:00 AM
Post by: Claymore on August 20, 2010, 07:41:00 AM
Post by: term on August 20, 2010, 07:57:00 AM
Post by: mrpenguin on August 20, 2010, 08:38:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by John3:Amen Brother!!
Asbell is right... So is Barta...
Looking for and buying every "advantage" is a personal thing driven by the TV "pro-hunters" Lee & Tiff and of course Waddell and many others.
I went traditional (many years ago) because I grew weary of all the gadgets.
Spend your money and have a great time bowhunting. More power to you but remember you don't NEED all that stuff! Being a better than average bowhunter is about experience and woodsmanship...
Post by: todd smith on August 20, 2010, 09:27:00 AM
This topic has caused some strong responses. I wonder why that is?
We're all free to hunt as we decide to. We don't have to answer to anyone really, just ourselves.
todd
Post by: 3arrows on August 20, 2010, 10:33:00 AM
Post by: Buckwheaties on August 20, 2010, 10:44:00 AM
Post by: K-Mac on August 20, 2010, 10:57:00 AM
Post by: gregk on August 20, 2010, 11:26:00 AM
Post by: L. E. Carroll on August 20, 2010, 01:20:00 PM
I have seen alot more pictures of Fred just standing and apparently enjoying the view of nature, than I have beside "Trophy Animals".
As a Matter of fact, most of the deer I have seen him posing next to in his pictures, are the kind I seem to take.. :goldtooth:
I think his article was great, as it seems to have gotten many of us to thinking about what he chose to write about this month.
Gene
Post by: LV2HUNT on August 20, 2010, 03:53:00 PM
I do not use them but just do not see how they would not be a good thing. The arrow has left the bow so they are not really an advantage in that regard. They seem to me to be beneficial from a game recovery standpoint.
No strong feelings either way just have always wondered why.
Post by: onewhohasfun on August 20, 2010, 04:12:00 PM
Post by: Don Thomas on August 20, 2010, 07:24:00 PM
Post by: graybarkhunter on August 20, 2010, 08:12:00 PM
Post by: wapiti792 on August 20, 2010, 09:45:00 PM
Post by: Overspined on August 20, 2010, 10:18:00 PM
Post by: Holm-Made on August 21, 2010, 12:24:00 AM
If I look back on the changes that have taken place in our sport of bowhunting the last 20 years and if I envision the same rate of change the next 20 years, as is likely to happen, I'm not sure I like the looks of our sport 20 years from now.
We are all free to choose our own path but it makes sense to personally understand why we are making the choices we make.
Chad
Post by: portugeejn on August 21, 2010, 02:18:00 AM
RonP
Post by: Kevin Dill on August 21, 2010, 07:38:00 AM
No matter how much we'd like to "freeze" things...time...how things are done...it's simply never going to happen. As much as we think we're doing things the old, hard way...hunting with modern day recurves, longbows, travel, communications, knowledge, equipment, etc has very little in common with how things were actually done fifty years ago. It's fine to be nostalgic in thought...even behavior...but no way to stop the march of time and inevitable change.
Maybe a better question is: What will "traditional bowhunters" be doing 40 years from now?
Post by: mrjsl on August 21, 2010, 08:31:00 AM
However... I do find trail cameras useful. On some public lands where they are allowed I go coon hunt at night and my dogs manage to find every camera in the woods it seems like. I think my dogs like to have their picture taken.
This lets me know what areas many other deer hunters are focusing on, and around here on public land that is as important or more important than what deer do.
I will not use the cameras myself, I will not use GPS in the woods either. I have spent the night in the swamp before because I left my compass on the dash of the truck, so I am willing to pay the price for shunning modern navigational good sense.
I prefer to hunt w/ no electronic technology. When I hunt an area I know extremely well, I often don't even carry a light.
Post by: San Juan Slim on August 21, 2010, 11:32:00 AM
I think Fred made it very clear that he was not condemning any of these activities but simply stirring up a thought process. Many of the things he mentioned are things I never think about. It did get me to thinking about using cell phones in the blind to text my hunting buddies or post a thread on Trad Gang while I'm watching some antelope off in the distance. I did just by a new GPS with topo maps and much better technology than my old E-Trex that I used to help find my way back to the truck after dark. But then, I too had to ask why I hunt with machined wood shafts, laminated bow, and fine European boots rather than hand sewn, brain tanned moccasins, self bow, and flint knapped heads on cane shafts. Of course our Native American Indian brothers would have had to use spears rather than bows to be traditional and their spear throwing ancestors would have used clubs I guess in order to be classified in the trad catagory.
Traditional is certainly not a black and white boundry. But what Fred was talking about was making things easier. We all choose our longbows and recurves because we enjoy shooting them, not because they are easier (although in certain hunting situations they may be). I believe he just wants us to start thinking about how easy we may want to make it for ourselves. Every time I go out to shoot or walk the mountains in search of elk or deer I find myself pondering the same questions about why I use certain gadgets and why I choose not to use others. This discussion certainly should not be a thread to pass judgement on Fred Asbell, but a time to ponder why I opt to use a GPS but won't shoot a bow with a metal riser. Why I will use laminated or hex shafts but don't want to shoot carbon arrows. Are you less traditonal than me if you shoot carbons and I shoot wood? I may think so, but I also think I'm very much less traditional than the archer who shoots a selfbow and wood shafts he fashioned himself using only hand tools.
In actuality, Asbell's arcticle was not about "traditional" at all, but basically questioning the shortcuts and gadgets we use to make hunting easier. If someone had not wanted to make hunting or fighting with their enemy easier centuries ago, we would have never had our bows in the first place!
Mike
Post by: ChuckC on August 22, 2010, 04:00:00 PM
ChuckC
Post by: pickaspot on August 22, 2010, 04:27:00 PM
It seems to me that this thread is just what GFA had in mind - to stir us up and make us think about the choices we make. For me, safety and ethics lead the pack followed by fun. I take my son & kids reguarly and find that unnecessary "restrictions" can be an obstacle to recruiting new blood.
Trail cam pictures stoke the fires of imagination for youngsters (and grey hairs alike) and a 2-way radio or txt capable phone enhances the enjoyment and safety of setting-up a few hundred yards from my 14 year old son.
For what it is worth - trail cams can help, but they don't kill the deer! We have harvested plenty of bucks that we knew well from their photos...but there are a couple that I have seen for 3 years on film, but NEVER in person!
Post by: L. E. Carroll on August 22, 2010, 05:00:00 PM
I'm glad I read this article, as I am in my mind, re-defining how I want to hunt and bring it back more to what I had in mind when I made the swith back to a "Simpler" way to hunt..and still do it within my physical limitations that my age and lifestyle as smoker and a welder of 30+ years have created... [ I hope my rambling made some kind of sence :knothead:
I'm saying that I have re-defined "Simpler" in the way I want to apply it to my hunting ... and for this thought process .. I say "Thank You Fred" for opening my eyes as to what crap I have allowed to creep in, and now change back a bit to "what it used to be".
Gene :wavey:
Post by: Buckskin57 on August 22, 2010, 05:34:00 PM
Post by: Jon Swanson on August 22, 2010, 10:07:00 PM
Post by: ishoot4thrills on August 23, 2010, 06:23:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by mrjsl:You don't usually walk around in the woods with the GPS in hand staring at the screen while hunting! You generally just mark the location where you parked your truck, turn the device off, stick it in your pack and forget about it until you get lost and then you use it to get back to your truck. What's the harm in that? I look at it like it's just a compass that uses batteries.
.......I don't use a GPS while hunting either. I carry a compass religiously. I have a phone with GPS, but using one in the woods causes you to pay less attention to the woods, which rightly ought to be bad for your hunting skills........
Post by: mrjsl on August 23, 2010, 09:09:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by ishoot4thrills:Because if you have one, you know you can't get lost so you don't worry about getting lost.
QuoteOriginally posted by mrjsl:You don't usually walk around in the woods with the GPS in hand staring at the screen while hunting! You generally just mark the location where you parked your truck, turn the device off, stick it in your pack and forget about it until you get lost and then you use it to get back to your truck. What's the harm in that? I look at it like it's just a compass that uses batteries. [/b]
.......I don't use a GPS while hunting either. I carry a compass religiously. I have a phone with GPS, but using one in the woods causes you to pay less attention to the woods, which rightly ought to be bad for your hunting skills........
If you DO worry about getting lost, then you will end up knowing quite a bit more about the woods you hunt in over time. If it is an unfamiliar place, and you aren't sure you can walk out in the dark, you may not go to that deep stand, or stay that last half hour. If you want to do these things, you will spend the time to familiarize yourself with the area.
GPS also makes people think in waypoints - points on a grid. Knowing the grid itself is also relevant to your hunting success.
Now I live in the deep south, where if someone is "deer hunting", they are likely to be looking at an electronic feeder, and have electronic cameras strapped to the trees all around, have GPS and phone, and probably even have a gadget that keeps mosquitos away. If they bowhunt, there's a decent chance they are willing to shoot 50-60 yards at deer as well.
So when I meet someone else around here who is a deer hunter, I often have absolutely nothing in common with them. If it comes out in conversation that I don't have a feed bill, don't plant food plots, use scent killer, or scents, or buck lure or cameras or a GPS, or 95% of the deer hunting widgets they sell these days, then people look at me funny - like I am a retard. My wife doesn't hunt and even she has noticed this.
However, by the time I have hunted a place a short while I can blood trail a deer on my hands and knees a long way in the dark, stand up look around and know exactly where I am at and how to walk straight to the nearest road or trail.
Post by: Mojostick on August 23, 2010, 09:54:00 AM
Don't even get me started on reading glasses. LOL
Post by: mrjsl on August 23, 2010, 10:03:00 AM
Post by: Mojostick on August 23, 2010, 10:27:00 AM
Post by: longbowman on August 23, 2010, 11:23:00 AM
We all have to admit we live in a "make it easier" society or nobody would have given second thoughts to his article.
Post by: Old York on August 23, 2010, 11:45:00 AM
Any of you pick up an Outdoors Life lately?
Field and Stream?
I see them at our club and they make me want to puke from the ads
they have promoting the hypertechnology of today's "hunting".
You can stuff your sabots into the printing presses all you want,
they're still gonna run. Just follow the money, $ame a$ it ever wa$. :banghead:
Post by: Chris Shelton on August 23, 2010, 12:02:00 PM
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
I walk into the woods with my bow, my camera, and my lanky self. So I find it interesting that some people think anything electronic makes the hunt easier.
Seems anymore my priority is capturing the memory on film while hunting. Similar to a trail camera I am able to go back to past film to see where I had good success. I can just look at the film and recognize the location.
I dont know but when I am in the woods with snow in my face stalking a mature buck on foot with a bow in my left hand and a camera in my right, it sure doesnt seem like a crutch?
GPS and cell phones don't work where dad and I hunt. The terrain is VERY dangerous, you western guys have nothing on this terrain. You may only be a mile into the woods, but it could take rescue days to find you . . . mainly because in the Appalachian mountains you HAVE to go where normal people cant/wont because that is where your best chance of success lies. So is it such a bad thing that dad and I carry a radio??? It is the only way to stay in contact with one another.
Seems that anyone getting bent about someones opinion towards electronics in the field need to take my stance . . . .I'm gonna hunt the way I feel like, if you don't like it get over it :)
Post by: Mojostick on August 23, 2010, 12:19:00 PM
Having owned a retail sporting goods business for over a decade, I was around different writers and tv celebrities at the trade shows and every year some came into my store before or after filming a trout fishing trip on our home river.
My conclusion was and still is, every outdoor writer and tv celeb has either a shtick or a brand they're selling, or at least trying to sell. And that's for fishing and hunting included. As they become more successful, they become a brand.
Having done TV shows, been the subject of numerous articles and had after hours drinks (the real truth detector) with those involved in either the video or print end of the outdoor industry, the motives were not much different than the retail aspect. Keep product flowing.
If it's a tv outdoor celebrity, watch and enjoy, but don't think the purpose of the show is anything much more than trying to get you to buy the products that the sponsors who essentially underwrite the show happen to sell.
If an outdoor writer, again, read and enjoy. But don't change any aspect of how you do things from the words of a stranger who's ultimate goal is selling copy to cement his/her brand name and to possibly cross promote products they also happen to sell.
So, if a writer does a story about how wonderful wool plaid is, and he happens to sell wool plaid, I'd keep the words in perspective. Or if a writer does a story on how indespensible neck knives are, and he sells neck knives on his web site, keep that in mind. Or if a writer does stories on alternative quiver options and he sells alternative quivers. You get the idea.
There's nothing wrong with good old American entrepreneurial capitalism. Everyone has the right to make a living and use savvy ways to sell his wares and inform at the same time, all while creating a buzz about him or herself at the same time, thus preserving a certain number of pages in the next magazine and interest in the brand name and cross promoted products, which maybe are sold right on the authors high tech website.
But a sales pitch is usually a sales pitch, no matter how accomplished and respected the salesman. Sometimes the sales pitch isn't even about a particular product, but about selling the brand the author has cultivated, which is easily taken by a willing audience.
And there's nothing wrong with that. I did it myself. When I lined up doing a tv fishing show or doing an article with a newspaper or magazine, the whole reason was to promote sales. This is still America, afterall.
But I wouldn't give much weight to any article other than reading for amusement and mild consideration.
As far as the "gadgets" such as phones, a few years back, I started to have a minor heart attack while literally taking a treestand down, 20 feet up in the tree. It was winter, I was in the back of our property, alone, I was in deep snow with lots of clothing on and had really exerted myself.
I didn't have my phone with me.
When I knew something started going really wrong with me, I got down out of the tree, dropped everything at made way to the truck. I was so dizzy and nauseous that I felt like I was going to puke. When I looked in the side mirror of the truck, my face was ash grey and I remember saying out loud "I'm in big trouble out here".
My fear was that my family would wonder why I didn't come home and they'd find me face down in the snow, dead.
I drove back to the cabin and luckily found like 8 baby aspirins in the bathroom drawer that I literally chewed up and swallowed with spit, since we shut the water off for winter. I wanted that stuff to work asap.
I found a beer in the kitchen and sat down, not wanting to do anything to exert myself. I sat in the cabin for 20 minutes, drank the beer and felt god enough to drive home, but still not right.
Needless to say, I made it home, called the Dr. and had a stent put into a 70% blocked artery 3 days later.
So, you can guess my attitude about having a phone on me. Now, I don't text anybody, at anytime. Not even in daily life. And I don't call buddies that I just saw a deer.
But from now on, I have a phone with me whenever I'm doing activies at the deer camp, regardless if winter, summer or hunting season.
Anybody with any health issue's owes it to his family to keep a phone on them.
A side note, what I didn't know is that my family cholesterol was over 300! I'm on cholesterol meds for 5 years and got it down below 200 and my last stress test came thru with flying colors.
If you've had a parent or sibling that's had a heart attack, you're a candidate. Find out your cholesterol and if over 35 with a strong family history of heart disease, and you have high cholesterol I suggest you DEMAND to have a stress test called in from your family doctor.
And don't think twice about turning your ringer off and throwing your cell phone into your gear back. It just may save your life.
Post by: mrjsl on August 23, 2010, 12:50:00 PM
It would have saved me from spending the night in the swamp last september for sure, as would my compass which I left on the dash of the truck. I did learn a lot about the square mile of swamp I was lost in, that I would not have known if I had a GPS.
And so you all don't think I am just a total purist, I did have my remote keychain and i climbed a tree and pressed the panic button to see if I could locate my truck. But, I was a mile from it it turned out.
I have hunted with guys who have GPS dog collars (coon dogs) and instead of listening to their dogs or trying to figure out what they are doing, they spend all their time looking at the little screen that shows where the dog is... one of my dogs wore one one night and I did the same thing. I found out she is a lazy hussy, but she still treed more coons than the hard working dogs she was with.
I usually do carry my phone when running the dogs, especially if I am by myself. Mainy because of the possibility of getting snakebit.
Post by: Mojostick on August 23, 2010, 01:00:00 PM
It's worth having the phone with you, just in case.
Post by: Cherokee Scout on August 23, 2010, 01:10:00 PM
But.......this article is one of the best I have read recently. It hits at the heart what I believed while growing up and what might be changing in our sport. I think Fred hit a "home run" with this article.
I use GPS and many of the other things he refers to, I think I will step back and try it without those items again.
Post by: TommyBoy on August 23, 2010, 01:13:00 PM
Post by: Bladepeek on August 23, 2010, 01:26:00 PM
Post by: Mojostick on August 23, 2010, 01:37:00 PM
I don't use trailcams anymore either. I bought one a few years ago and gave it to a buddy after a year. But that was a decision I came to on my own. Others should decide for themselves what they choose to use or not use.
My point is, we're all capable of making our own decisions about how we wish to enjoy our outdoor experience.
Sure, we need to teach our kids about the woods, the tree species, deer sign, how to scout and how to read a compass. But some may choose to supplement that with a trail cam because maybe the kids like seeing pictures even if they hadn't been able to make it out recently.
At least for me, there is no orthodoxy required for my deer hunting experience. What everyone wants from the experience is as different as we are as individuals and even the different geographic regions we hunt.
In some area's, a long, wandering walkabout still hunt is possible and a great way to hunt.
For others where every 40 acres is private and posted, a still hunt isn't impractical, it's counter-productive.
But to admonish someone because they don't "wander", when wandering isn't possible and stand hunting is the smart way to hunt, isn't worthy advice, especially if the advice is unsolicited.
Post by: Mojostick on August 23, 2010, 01:44:00 PM
Here's a good Also Leopold quote...
A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than that of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.
Post by: TommyBoy on August 23, 2010, 02:03:00 PM
I haven't read the article, but I've always been concerned about the use of trail cams. The P&Y bilaws state that you cannot use electronic equipment to pursue game. Does anyone know if P&Y has ever rejected an animal due to the hunter using trail cams? Just wondering ...
Post by: JohnV on August 23, 2010, 02:12:00 PM
One traditional writer bashes anyone who hunts bear over bait yet sees nothing wrong with hunting cats behind dogs or shooting game over small water holes. Go figure.
I get a kick out of anyone saying that we need to be more like Pope and Young. Are we talking about the same Pope and Young who thought nothing of taking 100+ yard shots at standing and running game? Dead animals in their books look like porcupines with all the arrows sticking out of them. While I admire our bowhunting pioneers I hardly think we want to emulate all they did.
Post by: Mojostick on August 23, 2010, 02:17:00 PM
The rule...
http://www.pope-young.org/bowhunting_fairchase.asp
By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.
Post by: TommyBoy on August 23, 2010, 02:29:00 PM
Post by: Mojostick on August 23, 2010, 02:34:00 PM
Post by: TommyBoy on August 23, 2010, 02:42:00 PM
Post by: Mojostick on August 23, 2010, 03:04:00 PM
The records typically come from good soiled private land with much lower hunting pressure where bucks are allowed to age. Also from states buck harvest is limited to either one buck a year or one for each season, bow and gun. Michigan allows any hunter to kill 2 bucks in any combination of seasons. For example, a guy could kill 2 bucks on opening day of bow season.
Anyhow, in many parts of the state, a 2.5 year old basket 8pt is "the buck of a lifetime".
Proximity, habitat, buck age and access are far more important than "skill".
My oldest hunting buddy bowhunted with me for 20 plus years in Michigan. His largest buck here was a 2.5 year old 8pt that maybe scored around 90. He then moves to northern Kentucky and in the first 3 years kills a 150 class 16pt, a similar 13pt and a 150 class giant 8pt.
The first year I hunted in Illinois, in 3 days I passed up 9 bucks bigger than anything I'd ever seen in Michigan and killed a very nice 11pt, that while never formally taped, a taxidermist who is a scored said it was 140-145 gross.
My skill or lack thereof didn't change from hunting Michigan one week and then Illinois the next, but my proximity to a much older class of bucks did, and so did the quality of the soil and habitat I was hunting. And the hunting pressure in Illinois at peak season was more like Michigan in late december.
Post by: NBK on August 23, 2010, 03:27:00 PM
I consider myself a blend of modern and traditional. I have absolutely no problem using technology to help hunt my prey, i.e. trailcameras, gps, synthetic clothing, etc. However, I do draw the line on no baiting for deer, and absolutely no fences. I will come to them on their terms, and my choice of weapon dictates that I must get very close. And one more thing; I believe in the power of choice, so to each is own.
Regards.
Post by: Brian Krebs on August 23, 2010, 04:07:00 PM
I started using trail cameras this year on my bear bait- to see just what was 'screwing me over' while I wasn't there. That is not locating game with a trail camera. I already knew where the bears were- at my bait !
When I have put out trail cameras for deer and elk; I don't put them overlooking a valley where I can see which corner they come out; I find trails that are being used by deer or elk or both; and put cameras there to see them.
I locate the place to put the camera with my knowledge of deer and elk habitat.
You don't hold up a trail camera and follow the flash to the deer. You find the deer trails; or bait piles or salt licks; and put the camera up to see what is coming in.
Now if your trying to locate a 'book' buck etc by doing this - your still locating the place deer are: and then using the camera to see 'who' is there.
I use google earth to look at areas; and that is the use of electronic equipment; and I talk to people here; and some come out and hunt with me and kill elk and deer.
So - is this forum an electronic way to locate deer and game animals?
Do we not help each other on this electronic forum to locate and take animals ?
How many people use the outfitters section to locate an outfitter who then takes you to a place to take an animal? Is not the electronic communication done: to get you to the animal?
One of the most popular threads here are those of trail camera pictures - and yet what percent of us kill an animal we see in those pictures? I bet it is less than .01%
Yes - the guys that own the cameras might be taking some- especially over bait and mineral/salt lick situations - but is that due to the ~camera~ or the ~bait and/or mineral lick~ being there?
Maybe at the end of this season; the guys and gals that have submitted trail camera pictures can show us pictures of the animals they have taken; and show us the trail camera pictures - with a short explanation about which was more integral to getting the animal- the camera; or the skill to take animal?
I have set out cameras this year; gotten some nice pictures; but when the 30th comes around; I will be relying more upon figuring out what I knew before the pictures were taken: that deer and elk were using the trails.
I will be as I have been; scouting on foot; driving from one location to another and getting out and wearing out boot leather to find animals.
If you drive from Connecticut to Colorado; or you drive around your hunting areas - is not the electronics of the vehicle helping you locate animals ?
Right now the bucks have velvet- but tomorrow they could lose it; and the pre-rut will be on and all bets will be off at that time.
And there will be bird hunters out there; and then Labor day - which always brings in crowds and motorcycles and atvs that will move things around.
Now laser range finders ? Well that IS using electronics to take game. I predict that very soon bow sights will work this way: you will put your pin on the animal; the laser will determine the range; and the pin will adjust to the correct position for the shot- even as the animal moves.
That is a far cry from sitting and watching deer or elk with binoculars; or putting up a trail camera.
I think Fred makes valid points - but that does not mean he is 100% correct on things.
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on August 23, 2010, 04:55:00 PM
He does not consider himself the "Trad Police" in any way.
I shoot cabon arrows (usually), have a GPS in my pack, have driven LaClairs quad runner to my treestand, and have texted Ron about a huge buck bedded down in front of my stand (we were hunting in opposite sides of the state).
That said, I think Fred is right. Our woodsmanship sklls are diminished by technology...GPS vs compass...Last year I walked the extra mile to my stand rather than open the gate and use the quad runner, and I felt better about it (and saw more deer)...and nothing wrecks the solitude of the woods like a cell phone.....
So take Freds opnions for what they are, well thought out views on a subject he lives for. Next time you grab your longbow for a simple evening hunt, leave all (or at least some...) of your techno-junk in the truck. See if you don't feel a little closer to the woods.....
Post by: TommyBoy on August 23, 2010, 04:55:00 PM
Post by: champ38 on August 23, 2010, 05:09:00 PM
Post by: Mojostick on August 23, 2010, 05:22:00 PM
One could easily argue that binoculars locate far more game than trail cams. And I use higher end binoculars and I don't use trail cams.
Which gives hunters a more "unfair" advantage? Again, you could argue that a set of good binocs gives far more of an edge to hunters than a static camera mounted on a tree. Just thinking out loud.
Post by: mrjsl on August 23, 2010, 06:05:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Brian Krebs:Depending on how you use it, maybe not. Around here, 99% of the game cameras are aimed at a feeder.
I do NOT believe the use of trail cameras helps locate game.
Now a fellow that has 10 feeders out with a cam looking at each one is most certainly going to hunt the one that has bucks coming to it daily rather than the one that gave him 97 pictures of raccoons. Thanks, camera.
I can go into the woods where I hunt and show you trail after trail that look like rutted up cow paths. Are they worth hunting? Without a camera I need to spend some time in the woods to find out. Half or more of such trails are mainly being used at night. With cameras I don't have to put in the time.
Deer hunting (whitetail) is not about locating deer. Everyone knows deer are in the woods and you can see the sign they leave. They are around. It's about finding the right place to hunt - the specific place with the best odds. Where to put that stand or what patch of woods to slip through given the time of day and the time of year it is. Cameras can help with that immensely. The only way to learn how to find the right place without cameras is to get out there and observe deer with your eyes... A LOT! Cameras help you get it done without spending as much time in the woods, and whether you use them that way or not, that is what potential they have to offer. If I had 10-20 cameras, I could figure out a new hunting area in one season. If I have to wait and see the deer with my eyes it will take much longer.
If a guy is going to hunt in one stand and look at one feeder no matter what, then I don't see why he would want a camera or what purpose it would serve, but I think differently than most hunters.
Post by: L. E. Carroll on August 23, 2010, 06:51:00 PM
Gene :laughing:
Post by: Gary Logsdon on August 23, 2010, 09:17:00 PM
Post by: ishoot4thrills on August 23, 2010, 10:23:00 PM
:thumbsup:
Post by: Steve O on August 23, 2010, 10:48:00 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/osminski/Post%20pics/22c77105.png)
be OK and hunting bear over bait where you can't see 15 yards unethical.
Maybe it is the guy that is hunting for fame and fortune that is misusing the technology? I do very little hunting near home and I have a clear conscience using trail cameras and the computer to help me scout and find new hunting areas from thousands of miles away. My GPS and cell phone are much more safety items than anything else. Like that old Clapton song says...It's in the way that you use it!
Those Black Widows Mr. Asbell is fond of are made with some pretty hi-tech CNC machines and some awful advanced materials...
Gene--I'm 42, and BTW, that top bow on your list is going to have to go :biglaugh:
Post by: Bill Tell on August 23, 2010, 11:10:00 PM
I sit in my truck in early light my iphone chirps I pull up the jpeg named stand1.jpg and it is a doe. Nope no does for me today, I'm hunting trophies. chirp stand14.jpg Oh now we are talking that is a rack. Start truck and head to lower 8 chirp stand15.jpg yep he's walking south in the funnel. Park... put the sand bag on the hood of my car shuck in a 30-06 round. Now I'm hunting, POP! Got him,
There is already the techno to do this.
Post by: Ben Maher on August 24, 2010, 12:47:00 AM
Look at any outdoor magazine and all the clickety clacks, gizmo's ,ATV's etc they are selling , promoting and drooling over. They generally have little to do with the wild and hunting as I know it .
But each to there own .
Post by: Brian Krebs on August 24, 2010, 01:40:00 AM
I have hundreds of pictures of birds; and pine martins; and chipmunks and one time I set the camera up and it snowed; and the snow covered the ground; then the light of the day warmed it and melted it. So a slideshow of it as birds came in and all kinds of animals came in - shows the slowly melting snow. Its quite beautiful.
The more beauty I see in nature; the more beauty I want to see in nature.
Trail cameras are a little window into a world that I love; and into worlds that are different than mine- but show there own special beauty. :archer:
That is why I like to see the trail camera threads- because I get to see more of nature; and of the animals in the wild I love so much.
Post by: Ben Maher on August 24, 2010, 02:05:00 AM
Post by: Jim Rocole on August 25, 2010, 09:34:00 AM
I thought this was one of Fred's better article's in quite a while. In my opinion his latest articles seem to be regenerated from his books. It has definetly made an impression and made people think. I did not get from the article that he was agianst everything that has technology but that maybe we are depending on it too much and that maybe we should at the very least look at our methods.
I do use the trail camera's because honestly I enjoy going out and retrieving that SD card and seeing the animals in the area. Truthfully withot them in WI, we never would have gotten our DNR to believe we have mountain lion in the state. Personally the most a trail camera tells me is that a decent buck is in the area, not when or where he is going to show up. I have a whole pile of pics of nice deer that are still alive and kickin.
Best article by Fred in a while.
Post by: IndianaBowman on August 25, 2010, 12:39:00 PM
“Techno Death” by Terry Receveur
“Wow, what a buck! He’s 60 yards out, but I can make the shot;” Bubba thought to himself. Bubba drew his 85% let-off, 70#, dual cam compound bow, with his three ball-bearing ultra smooth trigger release, and settled his 60-yard fiber optic pin on the buck. Upon squeezing the trigger the rest dropped away and the 200-grain, spiral wrapped carbon arrow with the 85-grain expanding mechanical head was on its way! At 330 fps it only took a nanosecond for the arrow to find its mark. The buck traveled about 50 yards before expiring in a heap. Bubba was ecstatic! He couldn’t help but think to himself that his carbon-filtered camo had kept the buck from smelling him. He was also proud of himself for shooting a buck he had on film from his trail camera. The buck was indeed magnificent. Five matching points per side and long tines and width. The buck would surely score well above the P&Y minimum. Bubba’s first buck eligible for the “books”!
Many would see this as a fantastic example of what bowhunting embodies today. Utilizing every technological advantage to take a great animal. It was all completely legal and exactly what the outdoor hunting shows depict on a daily basis. So, what’s wrong with the above scenario? The 60-yard shot, the scent shielding suit, the ultra fast bow, the trail camera, the 85% let-off bow?
The above scenario fails to address one of the core elements of a successful hunt, the chase! Only half of the equation was satisfied, the kill! "To kill is not success unless accompanied by the chase." Vance Bourjaily eloquently stated this interrelationship in his article “Hunting is Humane” in the February 15, 1964 issue of the Saturday Evening Post. “The two parts of the sequence must occur together, or there is no satisfaction. Killing, and this is generally misunderstood, is not pleasure at all if the challenge of hunting does not accompany it.” Most will agree that the feeling of accomplishment, pride, satisfaction, and culmination of a truly successful hunt, is not the size or score of the animal harvested, but in the effort and energy expended in the pursuit! In fact, a truly successful hunt often times does not even include the killing of an animal. Robert Ruark summarized a short anecdotal quotation as follows: “There was a Russian school of acting which once maintained stoutly that a good tragic actor had to suffer. The same must be true of all hunters… The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition.” Theodore Roosevelt was also a student of the chase, as evidenced in the following quote: “Of course in hunting one must expect much hardship and repeated disappointment; and in many a camp, bad weather; lack of shelter; hunger; thirst, or ill success with game, renders the days and nights irksome and trying. Yet the hunter worthy of the name always willingly takes the bitter if by so doing he can get the sweet, and gladly balances failure and success, spurning the poorer souls who know neither.” I would venture a guess that Bubba is a poor soul.
I doubt Bubba is alone in his lack of knowledge concerning the chase. Bubba is most likely a late 20s to early 40s guy who grew up on instant information and gratification. The television and Internet have brought a whole world of information and experiences into his home at the touch of a button. The problem lies in that the whole story is not being shown or described. It is simply a glimpse of a series of events and a choreographed ending to provide instant gratification and satisfaction to Bubba. What are we to expect of Bubba? All he knows is that you can purchase product “X” and have nearly instant success as depicted on TV. Of course, success doesn’t come that easy; therefore there must be another short cut or gadget that Bubba overlooked. The killing of game ultimately comes, but at the expense of shortcutting the wilderness experience. The technology available allows this! It is technology that most threatens our sport of bowhunting. Not only for traditionalist, but also for all bowhunters. As technology advances and shortcuts emerge the chase is lessoned and the kill increased.
Dedicated seasons for bowhunting were developed in recognition of the fact that bowhunting is supposed to be hard. The allotted days a field were apportioned in direct relationship with the degree of difficulty for attainment of management goals. Success rates for bowhunters are soaring, and it is only prudent to expect the allotted number of days afield to be reduced. I also submit that the chase is also lessoned as described above. This interrelationship of technology and diminished “thrill of the chase” is described in the following quote from Aldo Leopold: “Our tools for the pursuit of wildlife improve faster than we do, and sportsmanship is a voluntary limitation in the use of these armaments. It is aimed to augment the role of skill and shrink the role of gadgets in the pursuit of wild things… I have the impression that the American sportsman is puzzled; he doesn’t understand what is happening to him. Bigger and better gadgets are good for industry, so why not for outdoor recreation? It has not dawned on him that outdoor recreations are essentially primitive, atavistic; that their value is contrast-value; that excessive mechanization destroys contrasts by moving the factory to the woods or to the marsh. The sportsman has no leaders to tell him what is wrong. The sporting press no longer represents sport; it has turned billboard for the gadgeteer. Wildlife administrators are to busy producing something to shoot at to worry much about the cultural value of the shooting."
Hunting in general is also threatened by technology. The days when the public perceived the hunter as one who matched wits with the beasts on a level playing field are long gone. Gone also is the prestige and allure of the sportsman. Theodore Roosevelt described the past allure and the sportsman as follows: “In hunting, the finding and killing of the game is after all but a part of the whole. The free, self-reliant, adventurous life, with its rugged and stalwart democracy; the wild surroundings, the grand beauty of the scenery, the chance to study the ways and habits of the woodland creatures – all these unite to give the career of the wilderness hunter its peculiar charm.” The charm is gone and the public now sees a fully gadgeted nimrod heading a field to slay the defenseless creature. Technology has eliminated the defenses of the prey. Instinctive safety zones of game have been breached. Superior eyesight, sense of smell, and the desire to procreate are all addressed and manipulated by technology to increase kill rates.
It is the general non-hunting population who will determine our hunting future. If the degradation of the hunter, in the minds of Joe Public continues, they will legislate out our ability to pursue game.
I choose to self-limit and pursue game, not just kill it. I choose this for the reason verbalized by Sitting Bull, “when the buffalo are gone, we will hunt mice, for we are hunters and we want our freedom.” I want my freedom and to use every form of technology and gadget available ensures nothing more than “Techno Death”.
A closing prayer to our future by Saxton Pope: “May the gods grant us all space to carry a sturdy bow and wander through the forest glades to seek the bounding deer; to lie in the deep meadow grasses; to watch the flight of birds; to smell the fragrance of burning leaves; to cast an upward glance at the unobserved beauty of the moon. May they give us the strength to draw the string to the cheek, the arrow to the barb and loose the flying shaft, so long as life may last.”
Post by: L. E. Carroll on August 25, 2010, 12:55:00 PM
:wavey:
Post by: ChuckC on August 25, 2010, 01:06:00 PM
Is that bad. . well that isn't mine to say.
But we are losing something.
ChuckC
Post by: Bill Carlsen on August 25, 2010, 01:45:00 PM
I can remember Ryan Rothhaarr talking about taking 26 does off his dad's farm to keep the herd in balance. I simply cannot imagine that many "excess" deer in one place. If I "see" 26 deer a year I am having a good year...with a 3 month season and being retired!
I think that many of the elite bowhunters out there, you know the celebritries of our sport, are really pretty spoiled and they may have forgotten how hard it can be or how hard it is for those of us who do not live in areas as rich in game as they do. I may not have $2000 to purchase a big buck hunt in Iowa or Kansas...so I spend $200 for a trail camera and get a few pics of a big buck that wonders where I hunt. Often I never even see that buck while hunting but his pic on my computer keeps me jizzed for the day I may get a crack at him...or one of his girlfriends.
All technology really does is give those of us that need it some better choices to make and it shouldn't at all make any one of us feel disrespected for taking advantage.
And as far as I personally take technology with me in my pursuits it in no way dilutes my love of nature, of hunting, of a beautiful sunrise, of walking out of the woods lighted by a full moon. It doesn't make taking the shot easier or slow down my heart rate while doing it. I love it out there and that is the one thing that we all have in common....I hope.
Post by: Dave Lay on August 25, 2010, 02:25:00 PM
LE Carroll, to reply to your post, it probably would show a diffrence in replys, as some have never been in a world without this stuff....
I am 56 and been bowhunting for 40 years...
Post by: TommyBoy on August 25, 2010, 02:50:00 PM
You can share a campfire with me anytime.
:archer2:
Post by: Walkingstick on August 25, 2010, 04:23:00 PM
Post by: Brian Krebs on August 25, 2010, 06:31:00 PM
But I sure feel bad about what walkingstick said.
( with respect. I am an older gent too )
I have long been one to say 'when they outlaw hunting- is the day I become an outlaw'.
When I see technology dragging crossbows into archery season; and 'bows' that have to be carried in a bra into the woods - I feel sick.
Michigan will see crossbows this year for the first time in archery season. I predict this will do nothing good for bowhunting. It will increase the take - and I am no swami: but the long archery season in Michigan will be shortened.
And time in the woods is what traditional archery is all about. Fred Bear talked about how where a hunt is over with a rifle - the bowhunt begins; and how a bowhunter can get so much more hunting experience with a bow.
Time afield is critical to bowhunting. These archery genes do not require only a bloody arrow; they require time afield.
That is in danger. I will not stop hunting when it becomes illegal. As Sitting Bull said- 'if I run out of buffaloes I will hunt mice'.
My desire to be in the woods is not confined to the rule of law. I am not out there to help balance the buck/doe ratio. I am not out there to see what its like. I am not out there to be able to brag.
I am out there because it is where I have to be.
I NEED to see the wind blowing the leaves; and the birds flying by; and noticing things that take observation and time. It feeds what I NEED.
I am not content in reading about hunting. I am not content with watching a hunting show.
I was quite content listening to Fred Bear talk about bowhunting.
I feel like we traditional bowhunters are sitting in a fallout shelter; waiting for the end of the war. That might be the way to do it.
But when the wackem and stackem crowd starts destroying the concept of bowhunting: which it is doing now. I think it is time to at least have a battle plan.
And not just to hunt as long as its legal.
Post by: onewhohasfun on August 25, 2010, 06:35:00 PM
Post by: Ben Maher on August 25, 2010, 07:34:00 PM
Thank you for so eloquently verbalising the very thing I have thinking .
Well said ... :thumbsup:
Post by: Steve O on August 25, 2010, 09:47:00 PM
Post by: Zbone on August 25, 2010, 10:01:00 PM
Post by: mwosborn on August 25, 2010, 10:34:00 PM
It seems we have become so obsessed with large antler we will do what ever it takes to get them. Not that I don't like large antlers - but at what cost?
It hit me the other night when I saw the commercial for the "hot and squat" decoy that will bring in the big bucks. What will we not do for a monster?
JMHO
Post by: Tsalagi on August 26, 2010, 01:32:00 AM
Honestly, I can't afford a trail cam. I'm kinda lost with technology and probably couldn't figure out how to use one in the first place. I still haven't figured out how to load the photos from my recently acquired secondhand digital camera into the computer. I tend to get frustrated with technology and find it more times more trouble than it's worth. I mean, it's supposed to make our lives easier, but look how many people now can't even go to the bathroom without being interrupted by a phone call. And then they take the phone call. Color me cynical, but a person can't even sit down on the porcelain throne without having to talk on the phone? How has that made anyone's life easier? First time I heard someone in the next stall over in a public restroom talking on their cell phone, I thought the guy was nuts and was planning on a course of action in case it got out of hand. I mean, it's bad enough to GET the phone call while sitting on the throne, so to speak, but who sits down and immediately thinks they need to MAKE a phone call? And why would sitting down to "deliver the mail", as it were, remind you of who you needed to call? "Oh, yeah...need to call the boss..." Sorry, I'm not seeing how technology is making life easier.
Now people are doing this thing called "Twitter"? Huh? I don't get this. I don't want everyone to know where I am and what I'm doing every second of the day. This is like having overprotective parents 27/7, if what I'm thinking about Twitter is true. This is why I don't have a cell phone of my own. I don't want people getting a hold of me when I'm doing my own thing. I have a phone at home. That's enough. My wife has an emergency cell phone to carry on trips. That's as far as we go with it.
Yeah, I guess I kinda digressed here. But, this technology thing really is getting out of hand. I don't think it's making our lives easier, it's just more crap to buy, more crap to break and have to buy another, and more crap to have to babysit and watch and fiddle with.
I don't have a GPS. I can't afford one of those, either, and never had the inclination to buy one if I could. I have a compass and the fact the army taught me how to use it. No batteries, no fiddling, and easy to understand.
Post by: IndianaBowman on August 26, 2010, 07:20:00 AM
I too believe that we should be very tolerant and understanding of others choices. We just need to politely inform and teach when those choices endanger the sport we all love. It is very difficult to look into the future and sacrifice a little now to preserve our heritage.
I will never begrudge or belittle anyone for their choice to use technology. It is their choice and if it brings them happiness, then great for them. I only hope they reciprocate and understand the impact of their choices.
Society is a fickle entity.
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on August 26, 2010, 07:33:00 AM
I like that phrase
Post by: Jason R. Wesbrock on August 26, 2010, 07:57:00 AM
I think he expressed his opinions and got people thinking without all the brow-beating and condescending arrogance that's common in pieces such as that. I thought he did a great job with that article, even if I don't completely share his opinions on the subject.
Post by: Mike Gibbs on August 26, 2010, 08:03:00 AM
I detest hunting/shooting aids. Yes, of course I use a motor vehicle to get to the hunting area, but once in the woods, I don't want a gadget of any kind that helps me locate or shoot game. That's just me. It's a personal decision. I'm of the opinion that if you need assistance, or you want to kill something so badly you take every modern advantage, you are missing the point of going hunting. I suppose rewards for our efforts vary by individual.
Post by: Bill Carlsen on August 26, 2010, 08:47:00 AM
I guess my biggest problem is that we all have the freedom and the right to hunt however we please with whatever tools we have at our disposal that are legal. As I said previously, here in NH not using a trail camera just doesn't make sense if you can afford one. Many of the celebrity bowhunters that do all the writing have had or will have hunts most of us will never get to do. They take it for granted...it's the business they are in. I envy them as I, too, would like to be able to sit back in my spare time and write a book or two, and a couple of articles and tell the world the right way to do things. When guys like Fred do that they are making some assumptions about me and my situation and he doesn't have a clue. And, I have to tell you. as I am getting older I am more than happy to use the technology that I can if it will keep me in the woods for 5 or 10 years that I otherwise would have to give up.
I don't know Fred personally and I have a lot of good feelings about his contributions to the sport. He deserves our respect for those things. However, he is in a much different place than most of us and as I said he takes a lot more for granted than 90% of the people on this site. He is, after all, an elite trad bowhunter and I assume that he even turns down hunts that he gets offered to go on just because he is who he is. I just don't want to be made to fit the mold he finds himself in or be made to feel that how I do it is somehow inappropriate. If he is happy where he is (I would be) then let me be happy with where I am making the best of the lot life has dealt me. I hunt legally, as much as I can, love to be out there even when it is not hunting season and when the time comes to make that shot we are all pretty much in the same boat, anyway. We just may have gotten there a bit differently. IMO...it ALL good if it's legal.
Post by: Eugene Slagle on August 26, 2010, 09:02:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by mrpenguin:I'll give another AMEN to that.
QuoteOriginally posted by John3:Amen Brother!! [/b]
Asbell is right... So is Barta...
Looking for and buying every "advantage" is a personal thing driven by the TV "pro-hunters" Lee & Tiff and of course Waddell and many others.
I went traditional (many years ago) because I grew weary of all the gadgets.
Spend your money and have a great time bowhunting. More power to you but remember you don't NEED all that stuff! Being a better than average bowhunter is about experience and woodsmanship...
Post by: ChuckC on August 26, 2010, 02:36:00 PM
I personally think you should do as you wish and not worry about whether I think poorly of you.
I don't. I don't see your name on the wanted poster, you sure seem like a great person on Trad Gang. That's not it at all.
I think what Fred is trying to do is to get folks to think about what they are doing. If you read the magazines or see the TV shows, I can easily see the "if you don't use XX you are nothing" mentality. There is a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves to succeed.
I don't think he is condemming folks like yourself, or even saying that you are wrong at all, in any way, but rather just asks that we think about how all of that has crept into our lives.
Keep doing what you do. We still like you .
ChuckC
:campfire:
Post by: bolong on August 27, 2010, 03:53:00 PM
Post by: Brian Krebs on August 27, 2010, 05:03:00 PM
Or are you referring to the movie 'the Tingler' ?
Post by: cahaba on August 27, 2010, 06:15:00 PM
Post by: leatherneck on August 29, 2010, 10:00:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Steve O:He does write good HUNTING stories and I enjoy reading them.
G Fred writes great hunting stories
I make my own trail cameras,is that considered traditional?
I read the article and have my own opinions on it. I wont post them here. But I do like Freds hunting stories. My cameras tell me what game is in my area. Just like my guide does on a guided hunt. Interesting huh?
Post by: Zbearclaw on August 29, 2010, 10:29:00 AM
I rarely use my GPS, never fired it up in Alaska on a backpack hunt, but I gave a God given talent for almost always known where I am without having to spend much time on the subject. My dad was with me and when we were packing my buck out from midnight to 0400 he was a bit worried when the rain and fog were so thick the GPS didn't work.
I think lighted knocks are a gimmick that make no real difference in the outcome of a hunt. A well chosen wrap or dip and high viz fletching show just as well in flight.
We rented a sat phone for AK, is that a violation of Pope and Young? I usually carry my SPOT for solo backpacking hunts, what of that?
Too many care to be called a "traditional hunter". Who gives a rip. I am a bowhuter that has chosen the most perfect weapon for how I hunt. It just happens to be a recurve that I shoot off the shelf...
Post by: luv2bowhunt on August 29, 2010, 11:57:00 AM
Hunting is to be taken by each individual as too what he or she thinks is sporting. One mans opionion is just that, his own opinion! We hunt with traditional equipment and that is what makes us traditional hunters. If you think that tradtional is hunting with self bows and stone points, then more power too ya... but don't try to tell the rest of the world that your way is the only/right way.
I do like how someone compared this to religion... there are tons of different religions and each one thinks that they are the only right one... makes lots of people sick and this causes problems.
Lets just say we all like to hunt with traditional equipment and work together to keep hunting alive instead of nit picking each other and making enemies.
If you want your hunting buddies to hunt like you then find some that hunt like you... but you don't have to try to convert everyone to your ways of thinking.
Post by: rastaman on August 29, 2010, 12:06:00 PM
i think G. Fred did what he intended.
Post by: ChuckC on August 29, 2010, 12:17:00 PM
That is the very last paragraph in Fred's article. In it he SPECIFICLY states he is not saying you are wrong, and hopes only that you think about what you are doing. He is giving you a bunch of credit.
That's it. . .
From very briefly reviewing this edition of the TBM it appears to have this very topic as a backdrop with several similar stories.
I liked it. Thanks TJ et al. Well done. Call it a friendly wake up call.
As above stated so many times. . . do what you want. There are no trad police out there. Just let a friend say Whoa. . are you sure ?
It isn't about "trad" (whatever that is). It is about the experience, the journey, the memories. You make your own memories happen, your way.
In the end, are you doing it your way or the way that the promoters of the techno gear want you to THINK is your way.
Excuse me please. . I need to get my quad ready for next weekend. There is no way I can actually walk back in to my hunting area and be successful.
ChuckC
Post by: Dave Alaxanian on August 29, 2010, 12:43:00 PM
Post by: Turkeys Fear Me on August 29, 2010, 03:46:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JohnV:That's funny right there. I had a guy get all over me for paying to go on a guided hunt. Just so happens he likes to hunt bears and cats with dogs.
One traditional writer bashes anyone who hunts bear over bait yet sees nothing wrong with hunting cats behind dogs or shooting game over small water holes. Go figure.
So I asked him... "Let me see if I got this right. I pay a guy to show me where the deer live in an area that's unfamiliar to me and that's wrong. You feed a dog and tell him to go find you a bear or a bobcat, run it up a tree, stand at the base barking his fool head off until you show up to shoot it, and that's right?"
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me...
Post by: Izzy on August 29, 2010, 04:05:00 PM
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on August 29, 2010, 04:23:00 PM
I enjoy articles that make me think, and do some self-examination....nothing wrong with that in my book, and I think Fred did just that in his article.
It would be boring to read articles that basically say, I went hunting, I saw an animal, I shot it, end of story. That is why I like G. Fred, Dave Petersen, Dave Sigurslid, et al....they make me think....something this world sorely needs....
Lee
Post by: Tdog on August 29, 2010, 08:42:00 PM
Post by: Brad_Gentry on August 29, 2010, 08:53:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lgvivian:Amen, brother. After reading the posts on this thread I think a lot of people are missing the point.
I read the article, and all it did was make me think. I didn't get offended, I didn't feel it was a do as I say article, or anything like that. All it said to me was that maybe we should think about things. He seemed to put himself in that category as well...just re-thinking some things.
I enjoy articles that make me think, and do some self-examination....nothing wrong with that in my book, and I think Fred did just that in his article.
It would be boring to read articles that basically say, I went hunting, I saw an animal, I shot it, end of story. That is why I like G. Fred, Dave Petersen, Dave Sigurslid, et al....they make me think....something this world sorely needs....
Lee
Post by: jcar315 on August 30, 2010, 06:40:00 PM
I agree with G. Fred 100%! Thank you for writing what I have been thinking.
Post by: Shawn Leonard on August 30, 2010, 07:28:00 PM