Trad Gang

I have been told by a few friends that compete in FITA Olympic style shoots that foam core limbs have at best a few years of longevity. I thought that was weird considering that the foam is not a natural product like wood and that should have a longer life cycle. They have told be on what they have noticed on the competition circuit that more and more shooters are going back to carbon/wood limbs over the carbon/foam. What do you all think. We have some really good foam limb makers here, Morrison, Black Swan and Zipper. Would like to hear their point of view.

I had a set of recurve limbs (that I ordered new) and when I pulled them out of the box the foam had a visible crack where the "hook" curves towards the end of the limbs.  And it was on both limbs.  I called the bowyer and he was not worried about it...but these were limbs I just spent upwards of $600 on.  Sold them shortly there after and have no interest in getting another set for any of my bows.  

That was my only experience with foam core limbs.

Shoot straight...

Im interested to find out what some of our boywers have to say???   :coffee:

Curveman,

I don't believe it's just the Koreans going back to wood/carbon. From what I hear it's been a general move. Also Samick is a Korean company, I doubt seriously if any top Korean archer spends a nickle on equipment.
I agree on the perception of foam vs wood in terms of smoothness. But what I'm concerned with is the notion that foam limbs have a short life cycle compare to let's say bamboo cored limbs.

I think we can get into trouble thinking that natural material does not last as long as synthetic. I have broken a few carbon fly rods but still have a 50+ year old orvis bamboo I fish with and my newer bamboo rods get more action than the carbon. As to the life of the foam core, we will have to wait and see thier track record. It would be interesting if one of the foam limb bowyers has done fatigue testing and could make that data available. Me, I prefer things as natural as possible given my limitations of effort.

QuoteOriginally posted by LongStick64:
I have been told by a few friends that compete in FITA Olympic style shoots that foam core limbs have at best a few years of longevity.


We have some really good foam limb makers here, Morrison, Black Swan and Zipper. Would like to hear their point of view.

Two things:

1.  With all due respect to Morrison, Black Swan and Zipper, I would tend to defer to the companies that have made literally tens of thousands of sets of foam core limbs, and hundreds of thousands of sets altogether.  Of the three major limb manufacturers, two of the three incorporate foam in the core of their flagship limbs.

2.  Most top level Oly and FITA shooters are "sponsored shooters".  They shoot the limbs they are paid to shoot or at least the limbs they are given.  In regard to the durability of foam cores being "a few years," (which I doubt) I would wager to say that even if it is true, the limbs of a top level FITA or Oly competitor go through more shot cycles in three years than what our limbs would do in two lifetimes...not to mention that the vast majority of these shooters are using arrow weights that are MUCH lighter than we would ever consider using.

Quotethe limbs of a top level FITA or Oly competitor go through more shot cycles in three years than what our limbs would do in two lifetimes...not to mention that the vast majority of these shooters are using arrow weights that are MUCH lighter than we would ever consider using.  

I agree with this completely. But given that, what interests me is if these top competitors are moving away from foam, they are doing it because of a competitive advantage don't you think.

So what is the advantage of foam for us, especially since we are shooting heavier arrows. I understand on principal that the foam is not affected by the weather. OK. But if that statement is true, if the wood cores are affected by the weather.....by how much ? would we even notice the change ? especially since most of us are not taking 90 meter shots.

Please understand I'm not trying to bash foam, just hoping to get educated. And I fully admit that I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway.    :knothead:

QuoteOriginally posted by LongStick64:
I agree with this completely. But given that, what interests me is if these top competitors are moving away from foam, they are doing it because of a competitive advantage don't you think.

So what is the advantage of foam for us, especially since we are shooting heavier arrows. I understand on principal that the foam is not affected by the weather. OK.

Well, yes and no.  First of all, I think the verdict is still out on whether or not there is a substantial switch from foam to wood by the "top competitors."  By virtue of the fact that two out of three of the major limb makers are still using foam in their flagship limbs, not to mention that virtually all of the "second tier" limb makers are using foam in their top of the line limbs, I think you might just be getting one person's opinion on what the top level competitors are doing.

Second, the top level competitors don't always make their equipment decisions based on what you or I might consider to be a "competitive edge."  Phil Mickelson didn't switch to Callaway because he thought it gave him a competitive edge.  Actually, an argument could be made for the exact opposite.  If that were the case, every top competitor would be using exactly the same setup.  95% of all professional golfers use Titleist balls, yet Tiger uses Nike.  In his hayday, do you think if Tiger switched to Titleist, he would have won less?  How about if Phil would have switched to Nike, would he have won more?

As far as the benefits to us.  Like you, I'm not totally sure there are any (at our level).  However, I think we could both agree that much of what we do is mental.  If we are convinced that we will shoot better, we probably will.  Also, if we agree that foam is more stable at different temperature extremes, who experiences more variance in temperature and weather conditions, target archers or hunting archers?  Sure, target archers compete in 80, 90, or even 100 degrees but how many compete when it's 20, 10 or even -10 degrees.  Hunting archers do both. How about rain, sleet, snow, etc.?  Maybe it's MORE important for a hunting archer than it is for a target archer... Granted, we aren't shooting ninety meters but then again they aren't hunting pigs in Arizona one day and bears in Alaska the next.

Lastly, I can't speak for the the custom bowyers that you mentioned but my gut tells me that if they had any question about durability, they wouldn't be using foam.  Think about this for a second.  If Hoyt gets 50 sets of limbs back that failed, it's one thing.  If Morrison or Zipper gets 50 sets of limbs back, it's game over.

Oh, and by the way, I never took it that you were bashing foam.

I'll definately deferr to Bob Morrison. He has convinced me that foam and carbon is good. I have built a ton of carbon limbs and am still experimenting with foam. So far my experiments with foam concurs with what Bob has said. foam good . It is homogenous material and when you use high quality foam you will get no uneven pressures within the limb that you can get with even the best of wood cores. I believe that foam and carbon are made for each other. JMHO. As to longevity. I have no comment on that at this time. However a lot of bowyers have problems with longevity when using carbon. I believe that limb design and improper use of carbon is the culprit . Not carbon itself. Balance of the working forces withing the limb is absolutely critical . Not allowing forces to build in any area but being distributed evenly through the length of the limb is critical. Knowing the working qualities of carbon, especially using double carbon is essential. I believe using foam is much the same. What I have seen with foam is a lot of bowyers sitting back waiting for a few to prove the product so they do not have to spend either the time or money to do the prototyping.

What I do know is that performance wise . and that is in all respects, the best limb I have built was an all composit limb built with S glass, carbon and foam core. Steve

I have all hunting stuff but I shoot with several FITA style archers and they seem to get new limbs every year or two. I'm pretty sure that their limbs start to loose some punch after so many shots at 6, 7 or maybe 8 grains per pound. I avoid buying used limbs from them for hunting, unless they were not shot a lot for some reason.
I have several sets of single carbon foam limbs from Morrison and one set I have shot many thousands of arrows through. I mean thousands (D longbow @38lb). And I shoot these limbs at about 12.8 grains a pound. They have not lost any punch, still shooting the same arrow as in the begining, although I have made advances in tuning and I am shooting a slightly heavier spine arrow with them to be forthcoming. I see no loss of performance with these limbs in the foreseeable future.
I Chrono-ed these limbs once just to see where I was at. On a twenty inch riser with a ten strand 8125 string with cat whiskers. 513 grain arrow with a measured draw of 29-3/4 the limbs were measured to be at 40lbs there (I have this riser turned down all the way to get more deflex). They were making a steady 160 FPS with a fingertip release @ 12.8 grains per pound. Outside at the range this set up gaps at about 60 yards. My other limbs which are more of hunting weights I shoot at 12 grains per pound and the Morrison Longbow limbs are at about 170 FPS with every thing the same as above but the arrow weight. I just picked up some 51lb CF recurve limbs and they are faster but I haven't got around to chono them.

Shoot heavy arrows, your limbs will last longer, no mater what there made out of.

QuoteOriginally posted by Curveman:
I think I've pulled things way away from the original question.  I apologize!

Heck, I thought we WERE discussing the original question.

QuoteOriginally posted by Curveman:
The Korean Olympic archers are all going back to wood combo largely due to the cost of the materials I bet.

Where are you seeing that the Korean Oly archers are all going back to wood?

Not the only ones pondering this issue it seems

https://www.archery-interchange.net/forum/equipment-reviews/12369-limbs-foam-vs-wood.html

I've been using foam for going on 3 years now. I've had fewer limb failures with foam than we had with Bamboo. None of the failures were from the foam itself. I have had the foam crack in the tight bend in the recurve while gluing up limbs. Never had a problem with any breakage in that area, the same resin is used in the making the foam and when gluing up crack fills in and is just visable and affects nothing. foam will not draw any moisture any wood or grass will. Foam may not be for everyone, but for me personally it's a no brainer, it is faster, smoother and more weather tolerant than any wood. In the next 5 years you will see more bowyers using it, some that claimed it is not worth the extra $35

I'm certainly not an Olympic shooter, and not even a true target shooter. I shoot at targets for fun and to practice for hunting. I am a fairly good shot, but there are many thousands of archers who shoot much more accurately than I do. I have somewhere between 40 and 50 trad bows and have shot a lot more over the last half century. Most of my bows have wood (including bamboo) cores, but a number of my newer ones have foam cores, and some of those also have carbon backing. The "feel" of a bow encompasses many things. The most important factor is good design. However, materials do make a difference. Foam cores and carbon backing cannot make a poorly designed bow shoot well, and some extremely well designed bows are not amenable to the use of foam and/or carbon.

One example of a bow with an outstanding design that could not accommodate foam cores (or carbon backing at my draw weight) is the new Brackenbury Peerless static tip recurve. The Peerless shoots at least as well as any bow I have ever had the privilege of shooting. Bill Howland experimented with the use of foam cores in the bow and was unable to adapt the foam to the design. I would put the Peerless up against any other bow made as far as the overall balance of performance, smoothness, stability, noise level, speed, and any other characteristics that archers find important in a great bow. My Peerless has wood (I'm pretty sure the wood is bamboo) cores which obviously have been used a very long time in the construction of bow limbs. Foam cores would degrade the performance and other great characteristics of the Peerless due to its design, and in my draw weight, so would carbon backing.

I'm sure there are other bows like the Peerless that are not conducive to the use of foam and/or carbon, but for those that are, these materials can definitely enhance the feel and to some extent the performance of the bow. There is no doubt in Bob Morrison's mind, or mine, that his foam core bows feel better and perform a little better. With carbon backing, they perform significantly better and feel great. As to whether the limbs will degrade quicker over time than wood cores, I can't really say, because I have not had foam core bows for more than a few years. I can say that I prefer my Shrew Classic Hunter longbows and any of my Morrisons (either longbow or recurve) to have foam cores and carbon backing, and I say that with having more boo core bows in these bows than the foam or foam/carbon models. I also disagree with those who think that a draw/force curve can adequately describe the smoothness of a bow, either in its loading (draw) or its unloading (release). The same thing goes for fly rods, since that analogy has been used in this thread. There is a good reason why bamboo rods are primarily collector's items, while carbon fiber rods rule the fishing lakes and streams.

Both natural wood core bows and foam core bows are great. Just pick the one you like and enjoy it. I expect that either material, if used by a good bowyer in a well designed bow, will last any of us a lifetime if we properly care for the bow. And depending on the bow and its design, either one of the materials may be a better choice than the other. If in doubt, ask the bowyer which material he thinks will work better in his bows.

Allan

By the way, I don't think there has been any bowyer in the traditional archery business who has done more research or experimentation with foam or foam/carbon bows than Bob Morrison. He is a true pioneer and a great craftsman. His bows are at the top of bowyer's art. He has also freely passed on his hard earned knowledge to other bowyers so they could build better bows that compete with his. You won't find a better or more honest bowyer anywhere. I have many of his bows and think they are all great. But the foam/carbon limbed Morrisons shoot better than Bob's boo core bows. Bob's designs have been tailored to bring out the best in the foam and carbon -- and that took lots of R&D on Bob's part, costing him tremendous investments in time, effort and money. I was on the waiting list for my Peerless for 2 1/2 years, and it was worth the wait, but I can get a Morrison that shoots comparably right off Bob's website -- and I have done that and always been thrilled with my purchases. I started buying the foam core Morrison limbs shortly after Bob started making them, and I have not had a single problem with any of them. Bob also helped Gregg Coffey when Gregg started making foam core and foam/carbon limb Shrews. I have Gregg's first prototype foam core Shrew, and it is one of the best shooting bows I own. I now have several foam/carbon Shrews, and they are basically the same as the original foam core Shrew but with better performance. The Shrews and the Morrisons are very different designs of bows, but both brands are great bows that have only been made better with the advanced materials. I also have had zero problems with my foam core  or foam/carbon Shrews.

Allan

I build a static recurve with an exceptionally tight radius recurve. I tried foam and It broke the foam as Bob described. .I could not use it or carbon in that static limb.This brittleness is the one fault I find with it. I will try to develope a static that will handle it next year. Lord Willing.

Thank you all for your information, this has been a very informative thread for me.

This has been an interesting discussion-  For me I have found my foam core limbs with carbon seem to work better.

We offer Bamboo, Maple, foam Cores in our limbs.
Maple as a standard. Its as fast as the Foam cores not smooth or as sweet as foam or Bamboo.
Bamboo is 2-3 fps slower smooth and sweet on release.
Foam is fast, smooth and sweet. Will not draw moisture. Wood or Bamboo will draw moisture in Hot Humid areas of the country and can cause glue in the limbs to lose its bond with the core and just roll up and delaminate.
I've been working with wood over 50 yrs and the more time I work with it I realize I will never come close to understanding what its going to do. But I do know that wood even with a great finish on it will draw moisture in hot humid areas and will lose moisture in very dry areas this is a fact. I have not see that will foam.
Foam under clear glass will never be good looking. You can use veneers or snakes to dress it up. It will never be wood or natural, but the glues & glass we use isn't neither.
I also like the look of wood better, but like the feel and preformance of the foam even more...
BTW Foam has been around in recurve limbs around 30 yrs thanks to Earl Hoyt.

Bob,
Can you explain the difference in backing foam core limbs, carbon vs glass. I would think the carbon would add considerable stiffness to the limb compared to the glass.

Thanks
Pete

Seems we're doing an awful lot of speculating based on what one or a few guys think is happening re FITA shooters. A lot of times, such perceptions can be regional.  One person wins with a particular bow, so many others hop on the band wagon and buy that style, etc.  So far, no one's presented any documentation of what FITA shooters actually shoot, other than a few brand names, and whether the proportion of those shooting one type of core material vs another is going up or down. Furthermore, target shooting practices, principles, bow styles and materials don't always translate to hunting uses.

It wasn't that long ago that someone raised the same type of "longevity" question regarding bamboo  cores. I don't really have a horse in this race, except that I do have a set of carbon backed, bamboo cored  Shawnee longbow limbs on order from Bob, but I've found that bow design and the skill and care of the builder has as much to do with a bow's longevity as the materials used.

I suppose we won't have a definitive answer to this question for another 30-40 years.  In the meantime, I'm going to give them a try and find out for myself.  I'll report back in 30 years.   :archer2:

Based on my personal experience wood has advantages over man made products in bows with deep cores. Longbows can be made from Yew, Osage, Bamboo and many other woods, but you have a better chance of seeing an Ostrich fly, than shooting an all foam longbow.

In my opinion the advantage of foam is limited to lighter weight recurves where wood is not needed, and greater speed can be obtained from foam and carbon. Furthermore, wood should dominate in heavier weight recurves, where woods desirable properties outweigh any undesirable properties and heavier arrows are being used.

Personally, I will be happy to carry a wood core recurve, longbow, or R&D bow anytime, anywhere during my lifetime.

My wife and I have been shooting DAS recurves with Win&Win carbon/foam limbs for over 5 years. No problems whatsoever and the carbon/foam limbs, I am convinced, allow my wife, in particular, to enjoy hunting with a recurve and not a compound simply because the performance is so much better. And I think Bob Morrison is right. I just got a set of Border HEX5 limbs with wood core. The feel of the draw and release is different. I took the bow on its first major voyage this weekend on a course that I  have shot for over 15 years (Muzzy Stump Shoot) and I was disappointed that the new limbs didn't seem to be quite what I expected. They shot very, very well, but having reflected on the limbs on the long ride home while trying to analyze why my bow felt so different and then reading what has been said here, I think the difference was the lack of "smoothness"  while drawing and at the release.

But, as for the longevity question, I don't believe it for a minute. It has not been my experience at all.

I'm relatively new on the carbon/foam limb scene, and recently got into them with a new Morrison. As allot of others say, these limbs shoot fast and are smooth. My experience in the use of carbon fiber is for structural repair of concrete, and it is well documented that the carbon's strength is in one direction. It adheres extremely well with the modern resins.

I'd go with Bob's experience on the use and durability of the carbon/foam limbs.

Like all materials you need to use it properly and in the right form. Some designs see no benefit from carbon or foam and some become almost entirely different bows with them. The carbon foam used in the Black Swans will soon be available to all the bowyers who want it and from what I've seen will make even more improvements for folks who have designs that can make use of foam. The carbon foam has proven quite a bit more durable than the glass foam in our matrix. All materials can fail of course, and there are several materials in each limb that can lead to that. The art is in making the choices of materials/glues that will function well together in a design that can benefit from it.

The OLY shooters who switched to wood cores were primarily Samick shooters who chose to shoot the Samick Masters over the Samick foam limbs. The Masters were a hot limb while in production and had a much different feel than the other Samick offerings of the time.

Actually the foam core has prooved to me to be more efficient in longbows. It makes a much lighter, faster and smoother limb. Combined with carbon backing and a thin glass, s glass I believe that it is the ultimate D and R limb. I do not like the looks of it. I do not care for the softness on the edges but those seem to be the only drawbacks.

QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Seems we're doing an awful lot of speculating based on what one or a few guys think is happening re FITA shooters. A lot of times, such perceptions can be regional.  One person wins with a particular bow, so many others hop on the band wagon and buy that style, etc.  So far, no one's presented any documentation of what FITA shooters actually shoot, other than a few brand names, and whether the proportion of those shooting one type of core material vs another is going up or down.

Couldn't agree with you more Orion.  There's a whole lot of speculatin' going on.

I agree about the speculation. For instance there is no empiracal evidence that a given number of pro shooters reject, or have rejected, the foam for any reason, much less longevity.

Its almost like a rumor generated by someone not building with foam.

There may be some real basis of concern about certain quality aspects of different foam cores but those things are not being addressed.

All wood cores are not equal either. All action boo cores are not equal. However if a bowyer builds with a specific foam. knows its properties and has a good rrack record with it I see no reason that foam core bows would not be the best of the best.

Here is another thought. I can build a bow with actionboo cores and mic the lams perfectly . Mic the overall limb to be absolutely perfect side to side and both limbs built on same form with same batch of wood and end up with different poundages in the limb. When I do that same build with foam core they come out exact poundage.I would bet that the other builders that actually build with foam cores can say the same thing.
This implies that the wood core,. No matter how perfectly picked out and machined has different forces being built up inside of it. It is not an homogenuous material. Foam does not have that problem.

This does not mean that I do not use hickory, maple, tigerwood , actionboo or actionwood for cores. I do. It just takes a little more work and in most cases is just a bit less exacting.If I were a target shooter I would want the benefit of foam core limbs. I doubt that most of us as hunters would benefit that much over good wood core limbs. Steve

After reading most of the links there in your post curveman I think "the back to wood" thing is all hype and marketing manipulation.
And it is working on some of the insecure tech crazed ILF crowd. They're buying up those exact same Koren wood core limbs (veras). ka-ching.
I think those Korean archers/manufactures knew exactly what to do to play on fear and get people to buying new limbs. But didn't that "guy" loose in the end to the Ukrainian? Maybe he should have stuck with the foam.
I know I like my foam cores.
And I can definitely tell you that the main reason other people using wood in competition is because they are "still" using it, they had never stopped using wood in the first place. And I know why. They shoot very tight groups with those old limbs and won't stop using them. I have still yet to out shoot some of the groups I shot at long range with my old Bear takedowns. The Skys and old Bears are Very forgiving tack drivers, and make really good string walking bows as well, because of the design/tiller.
Sometimes there simply are other agendas involved besides top speed when choosing limbs.

Keep this one going I'm looking for deals on foam/carbon limbs!!  :bigsmyl:  

All I can say is I love all foam/carbon so much I sold all my wood limbs. Some may not notice big difference at low weights but at 70 -75 there is considerable difference.

I have to doubt that Olympic level shooters are returning to wood due to hype. Winning an Olympic medal is quite significant in most countries. I don't think any archer at that level would make a decision based on marketing or hype.

I understand that on a practical level, most Olympic archers fire more arrows through their bows than we do so the application of foam limbs on a target vs traditional setup varies, that being said. If the guy shooting a thousand more arrows through his limbs than me finds a reason to switch, it's worth noting.

So is it fair to say that not all foam cores are the same.

One group of OLY shooters shot wood heavily last Olympics, Samick. Like I said they chose the Samick Master limbs and those are out of production last I knew.

There are different foam cores. Glass and carbon. There are different modulus used just as in fly rods and the higher modulus is more expensive generally and more durable to a point. Just as there are different woods and bamboos used for cores.

I like the feel of foam cores, some don't just as some prefer bamboo over maple or maple over action wood and so on. Find what you like and shoot it. The limbs put out by the major players in ILF (Win&Win, Hoyt, Samick, etc) are tested over 100,000s of shots. I don't think you have durability issues to worry about, especially at the weight arrows most of us shoot.

The interesting thing in all this is that we are translating target bow technology over to benefits to hunting bows.  I would love to see a scientific comparison of multiple carbon / foam limbed hunting level bows in their many variations against wood core bows of the same design.

If there is a design that provides an extra speed benefit then I might see some benefit in spending the extra cash.  I think that people shooting "short" bows might see a benefit in smoothness.  I can't see that my 68 inch R/D longbows would pull any smoother than they already do.  

I have enjoyed the thread and will keep an eye on this thread since I have been pondering finding a carbon limb bow or two to shoot to see if I like the limbs or not.  To much conjecture is going on right now for me to dump the cash on a new bow without some proof.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
The interesting thing in all this is that we are translating target bow technology over to benefits to hunting bows.

Target bow technology IS hunting bow technology.  Animals are nothing but targets with blood in them.

Curve,

Mine are all gone already. Nothing but foam/carbon for me from here on out.

Besides, at rate most of you guys buy and sell bows and own 50 of em I doubt anybody on here ever going to wear one out.

As they said in the matrix; Ignorance is bliss.
It is definitely manipulation.

Target rifle technology and target bow technology does not necessarily translate directly to hunting technology.  We usually find small pieces or most of a new technology / material transfers well but not all of it.  I have spent enough years engineering things to know that direct translation to another segment of any sport or project is never 100%  

My comment was aimed at my need to see some research and reports to determine how well the new technology transfers and what segments of it will be most usefull to the hunting community and the bowyers that serve it.  

It might just be me, but I don't concern myself with what olympic shooters are using.  I do pay attention to what modern improvements bowyers and hunters are using and how they can apply to the hunting we all love.  If someone can prove up on a significant speed increase with improved smoothness of draw then carbon will be a must do in my book.  

Lots of fads come and go with millions spent on them only to find out they were just that.  I prefer to spend my hard earned cash on things that I have concrete proof are an improvement.

Not saying carbon is not that hot new thing.  Just looking for some proof before buying.

This thread is about foam. Carbon has proven itself speed wise and durability wise. The foam offers other benefits to hunters than speed. The most valuable is how it stays consistent regardless of weather conditions. Moisture, heat, cold, etc won't change how the limbs shoot unlike natural materials. For bowyers, foam is consistent for building limbs. Once you have your formulas down, you can always hit weight and limbs sets will shoot the same. With natural the variance is much wider. Foam is just another step forward in materials like actionwood and actionboo were, same as fiberglass was at one time.

On the Hoyt website they talk about dry firing their newest FOAM CORE limbs hundreds of times in testing. That should provide some insight into the longevity of foam core limbs.

QuoteOriginally posted by Curveman:
[QB] Foam is foam and so has voids in it

None that I have seen. Are you sure about that. I know its man made but the quality control is actually pretty incrediblw. this is a space age product. Designed to make snowbords. LOL

As tp tje bemefot tp bpwuers/ It is much higher priced than any other core product I know of. The bvenefit is its consistancy pr homogenous character, smoothness of draw and physical lightness compared to wood lams.

I think as Bro Paul said, You protest too much    :deadhorse:

Foam is a very general term. I use foam to shave with. Were talkin about the "foam" material used in carbon foam limbs, not the foam in your seat cushion, or the foam in the peanuts used for shipping.
Curveman do you have a reference for your claim of Hoyt foam failures? Or is that just more bliss?

Border is building a complete composite limb with no wood now. Sid said no foam. However I would venture that they are using a carbon foam composit with carbon instead of glass. I have not seen it however. Does anyone know? Steve

The foam I use is syntatic foam with glass microshperes.

By definition a foam product has air or another gas entrained in the final product. That is what makes it foam.  In the case of "solid" foams that is a small amount of air / gas bubbles but it is there.  Modern solid foams are very consistant.  Then again any modern process has a certain amount of reject material.  That is just the nature of manufacturing.  The real question is how much of the reject makes it past quality control at the plant.

After talking with  several Bowyers about modern materials, some of the limb failures are more to design than the modern materials. And double carbon limbs not working well in some designs, not necessarily to the foam core. After all, Hoyt can dry fire there latest double carbons an unprecedented number of times, repeating myself there.
But I don't have problem with a guy just not feeling well about space age materials in bows, most of the Bowyers can make you some damn good wood limbs if that is what you feel better about. I still have some very cutting edge bows with plywood core limbs. And I shoot them too.

my foam has no voids,,,,,,,,,,, so far.I've had wood cores over the years that had voids, you could not see until you have a problem, Lot of it on tempered Bamboo...... I can understand some not liking a core different than wood,Thats fine, just don't forget your wood cores have fiberglass or carbon over them,and a high strength expoxy holding them together. All OLY limbs with wood are maple, our standard wood core...And it will preform with Foam...Feel is less than good. I'll build you what you want, but I'll be shooting foam as long as I can get it, for me its a NO brainer,and I can make it look pretty with wood or skins.

Here's an update on my Border limbs (you can also check my thread on "why I like ILF hunting bows"). I got an email from Sid and he talked a lot about the DAS geometry vs. Border geometry. It occured to me that my Winex limbs worked best at zero tiller. My Borders were positive 1/8" tiller. I set them for zero and the feel and follow thru I was looking for just fell right into place. Now I am wondering how (or if) much better those limbs would be with foam cores. But, I have to say, now that I have them figured out, thanks to Sid's help, they are every bit as good if not better than my 5# heavier Winex limbs.

In addition I have a few things I would like to add about the whole idea of ILF limbs, modern technology and why I think it is a great thing. My wife asked me about 6 years ago to set her up for hunting. Long story short....got her a DAS recurve, set it up with carbon/foam ILF Win&Win XQ 1 limbs set at 46# @ 26" and shooting a 500 grain arrow she was able to get a pass thru on a mature black bear. The advantage of the high tech carbon/foam limbs and the research done by the Japanese on their target limbs when put on a shorter hunting riser that is properly designed has my wife shooting a bow that performs more like a bow ten pounds heavier being shot with a 28" draw. The inherent stability and speed of the limbs make it possible for her to hunt with a modern recurve that far surpasses anything I have seen since my dad got me my first lemonwood longbow in 1951. Most of the disclaimers I see about modern technology come from people that seem to me who want to avoid the inevitable...that things change over time and that improvements can happen. Change is hard for some to accept but even Howard Hill had his longbows backed with fiberglass when he heard that it would improve the cast of his bows. And once he did it it was all he shot. Bear and Pearson have numerous patents on improvements in designs, manufacturing processes, and new materials, that I am sure all of are happy for them doing so.

As I age (I'll be 67 before this season ends) I am grateful for the advances that allows my wife to  hunt by my side and allows me to continue to use trad equipment rather than having to resort to compounds, crossbows or firearms.

You can look at advances in technology as undesireable or you can look at them as offering you more and perhaps better choices. I like having choices and I also like equipment that performs at high levels. So, my hat is off to guys like Bob Morrison, Sid at Border, Jim Belcher and all the others who are taking the risks and delving into doing things differently and hopefully coming up with more efficient "toys". Their investments in time and money can only raise the bar in regards to the improvement of the functioning of modern archery tackle.

OFFENSIVE POST REMOVED BY TERRY GREEN

The limbs are sealed to protect from scratching and wear not to keep moisture out in the Black Swan case. The limbs have nothing in them that will absorb moisture. Where I hunt humidity can run from non-existent to the high 90s and temperature can swing 30-40 degrees in a day. When we changed to carbon foam the bow prices didn't change a bit so the benefits come at no extra cost to the customer. I hunt, I don't shoot OLY, so the things that matter to me is how the material will function in my use and I like how the foam functions. The draw feel is a nice side benefit. Spend your money how you like and get a bow that fits you. Try some of each and you decide which is better for your situation.

Boarder Bows is now banned from Trad Gang....I've had it with this guy and his schillers who spam this site.

Sid has blatantly advertised over and over on this site and has been asked over and over not to.  He has never offered to sponsor this site yet demands free advertising.  This has been going on for years.

Now he is calling out sponsors of this site.  That's it.

No more Sid...no more boarder threads.  I've had it.

Ouch, What did I ever do to you Sid?? How smooth is a leather seat compared to Vinyl, come on give me a number????? Moisture absorbtion, not passing though a varish finish, You are wrong on that one and I feel you know that.. I really don't care that cores anyone uses. I will shoot foam until something better comes along. The foam and Carbon I use is available to anyone and everyone, Are any of your???

Bob....he's gone. Don't expect an answer cause we are manning all new registrations also.  I cannot believe the audacity of some folks.

Funny too how some here made comment after comment and never even shot a foam core bow....or at least never owned one for any particular time.  Wonder if there was a hidden agenda like there has been in the past.

:clapper:    :clapper:    :clapper:    :clapper:

Terry, I know what your saying. Thanks for a great site that will not put up with any Bull Ship..  :clapper:    :clapper:

I didn't see the post but I do know that to this point the conversation has been really gentlemanly. Although  ,, I did suspect an agenda but for the life of me can't figure out why. I will say this. Bob convinced me from a thread on this site to give foam a shot. I am thoroughly impressed and I am no novice. I have been a bow shooter for well over 50 years and have a lot of experience. The fastest limb I have ever built or shot is a double carbon , foam core limb I built. The first shot I took I could not believe how easy and soft the pull was. The arrow shot clear through my foam block. (new) I thought , hit a soft spot. Sbhot again. zipped through and hit the fence. This thing is unbelieveable. I am in 100 percent agreement with Bob Morrison and am completely impressed with the product. I am not a person that just jumps out and starts pushing a product or hypes something up. This is just a good product. period. The lighter a limb is at any given weight , the faster the return is. As to the longevity , I believe that would be relative to quality of product and application. Like Carbon , I am sure that some limbs are not foam friendly. It is brittle. Therefore I won't use it on my Talon Static with tight curves. I don't use carbon in that tight curve limb either. Sure wish I could but nothing doing. Anyway, Kudos to you Terry. I did not push my bows on here or send shills here although I have come here for a long time. Its just not right and I respect what you are doing. I waited until I was sure I wanted to be a sponser before I put the money down. Now I am glad I did and your action confirms my decision. God Bless You, Steve  :clapper:    :clapper:    :clapper:

I had to bite my tongue thru this entire thread, wondering the same thing Terry. I have two shrews, one foam and one wood. I love them both. To Mr. Morrison,The fact that you have shared your knowledge of foam carbon and uni-weft with other bowyers shows me what a class act you are sir. I salute you. Tom Bateman

I'm ticked about this entire thread! Geez, just look what y'all have done. Now I'm gonna hafta buy a bow with foam and carbon limbs...just to see what all the hoopla is about! Jeepers, y'all!

  :bigsmyl:      :biglaugh:

I did NOT have any negative agenda in starting this thread. I asked about foam core limbs not about any one manufacturer. I did not start this thread to bash anyone or any material used. I wanted an education.
Mr. Morrison I have a riser and a set of your limbs, and I really feel fortunate to own them. I actually sent in an order for a new riser today. I sincerly apologize if this thread has brought any negative response your way. Not my intention for this thread.
I do not have any connection to any bowyer or manufacturer of any type. My thread was not intended to be a mudslinging affair.
I was honestly curious IF there was a valid reason to choose one limb core material over another.
Mods
If this thread seems to have a hidden agenda. It was not my intent. Please delete this thread if you deem necessary. But I am centainly not going to accept any notion that I had an "Agenda", that there is unacceptable to me.

Peter,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I had no suspicion of your intent in starting this thread.  You had a really good question, and I was glad to hear Bob's thoughts (and some of the others).

Some of the rest of it was a little puzzling, though...         :dunno:

Well I missed all the fireworks but I will tell you this--After many years of shooting all kinds of bows the smoothest I have ever put in my hand are a Morrison and a Zipper, both with foam limbs.
I don't own a foam limb bow but I will pretty soon.

Peter, There was nothing wrong with your original post. No fault of yours it went a little nuts... Anyway I hope you got some good stuff from all the posts that were positive and not the negative (I don't really know but I did stay at a  Motel 8 last night)...

Yes I did and I appreciated all of the responses, I may not be an expert at how to make a bow but I'm a damned good listener.

Either way Bob, I have a m/o out today to you for one of your ILF riser's, keep up the good work.

Peter I certainly was not addressing you or the thread. I was wondering about the agenda of some of the answers. Sorry if you thought I pointed at you. This has as a whole been a very constructive and valuable thread in my opinion. I stayed at the same Motel 6. God bless you, Steve

It is 92 deg. here today and I just blew the foam off my beer! Whew. As far as speed goes,I had a limited test on a chrony. A little speed gain with lite arrows. Heavy arrows shot about the same speed.

I was just pointed to this thread.I did not read through all 5 pages of it,but to answer your question concerning longevity of foam core limbs.I will tell you this,in 3 years of use of foam as a limb core I have had ONE failure!That failure was not due to the core failure.
I have guys that are very competetive shooters shooting foam core limbs.They shoot over a hundred shots a day every day with no problems.
Hopefully this thread helps ease your mind.
Bill

From what I've read on this thread, foam cores seem to be the next greatest thing in bow making. Lots of people seem to love them and how they perform.

But my question; is anyone mourning the passing of wood? Compounds have all the warmth of barbwire. Will our recurves and longbows soon be the same?

I'm absolutely "NOT", trying to open a can of worms or start a fight. I just love wood in a bow; it's warmth and beauty bring tremendous joy in and of itself.

Fiberglass, carbon, foam and anodized aluminum can be put together, to make a very, very efficient tool, but, "FOR ME", with all the soul of an anvil.

Good luck to all of you this fall...and in spite of our governments best efforts, we still have the freedom to choose the bows we want to shoot and hunt with. I will always choose, for example, a Blacktail over a DAS, even if the Blacktail is slightly less smooth or efficient.

Wood cores or bamboo cores are not going anywhere.Bamboo is still the standard in our limbs,foam is an upgrade.With the foam core all you will see is a gray core between the pretty veneers.Just as with the bamboo you will see a light brown core between the pretty veneers.You realy do not give up any beauty.We can even put a veneer over carbon if you were to so choose.I know Morrison will do the same.

Thanks for your reply...Zipper bows have some of the most beautiful wood combinations around. Glad to hear you feel wood and bamboo cores will still be available in the future.

I remember how quickly compounds went from wood risers and cores to the metal and plastic machines they are today.

If nothing else, maybe Zipper, Morrison and others can have a retro line of bows for those of us that are addicted to beautiful wood. But, my addiction is so bad, I can find beauty even in a 2X4.

Like Bill said, Wood is not going anywhere. Foam core is an option. I have built a lot of carbon limbs with super thin wood veneers over them and clear glass ground to .015 for a skin. they lose very little and look great. We don't need to mourn the demise of wood because of a core material. if you go to any of the bowyers that are on this thread and check out the websites you will see gorgeous wood and lots of it. Most of those on mine have carbon limbs with very thin veneers. Like paper thin. God bless, Steve

QuoteOriginally posted by LongStick64:
I did NOT have any negative agenda in starting this thread. I asked about foam core limbs not about any one manufacturer. I did not start this thread to bash anyone or any material used. I wanted an education.
Mr. Morrison I have a riser and a set of your limbs, and I really feel fortunate to own them. I actually sent in an order for a new riser today. I sincerly apologize if this thread has brought any negative response your way. Not my intention for this thread.
I do not have any connection to any bowyer or manufacturer of any type. My thread was not intended to be a mudslinging affair.
I was honestly curious IF there was a valid reason to choose one limb core material over another.
Mods
If this thread seems to have a hidden agenda. It was not my intent. Please delete this thread if you deem necessary. But I am centainly not going to accept any notion that I had an "Agenda", that there is unacceptable to me.

Never did those thoughts you just posted cross my mind......I sure hope you don't think I was implying anything toward you cause I wasn't.

I also DO NOT think foam cores will be the death of wood.....EVER.  No way.    :campfire:

interesting i didnt know anybody was using foam

Wow, I've been out of the loop on this one . . . spent the last day or so away from the computer having fun shooting my recurve and foam limbs:^)

I have owned a couple of Morrisons with foam cores and now own a Zipper ZSR with foam core evolution limbs. With the foam cores the bows were extremely smooth and the carbon made them very quick. My favorite core qood is on my Quest, custom laminated wenge, smooth and very vast. Foam is just another option and is a good one in my opinion. I like them all  :bigsmyl:

Geez, don't tell me I have to call Bob before the yard sale is over.
homebru

Peter,thank you for staring this thread and it has been very educational for me to know more about foam limbs.  More impressive to me is how many bowyers so openly sharing their knowlege (in other indsutry is like sharing trade secrets).  Hats off to all of you.  :clapper:    :clapper:  

For the longevity concern of the foam limbs, I agree with those posts that few models of the OLY limbs have design fault and made them fail more often than other models.  If that model happen to be a popular one for that particular year, the result is seeing massive moving away from that model to the next popular model, does not matter it is foam or wood.  Competive OLY shooters also must have lots of arrows going through every day practice.  100 to 200 each and every day.  That makes it easier to see a fatigue failure if limb design has fault.  That's how I think the information from those area got started.

Competition shooters also compete at variouse disatnace, up to 100 yards.  Consistancy of the limb performance makes significance for such long disance.  I would choose foam core in that situation especially when the temperature and moisture may vary a lot through out the same competion day.

I know that foam core is not natural material.  But it seems natual to me to choose foam core after seeing the benefits.

Thanks Ming,

As a note, the ILF Longbow  Morrison foam core limbs I bought from you are still going strong.

I have had great luck with the foam core limbs.  Had a buddy dry fire my bow and they did not crack either!  I have used them for a couple of years and find them to be very good limb material.  Not as pretty as the wood limbs on my other bows but they have their place

ttt