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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Robert Honaker on July 27, 2010, 02:33:00 PM

Title: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 27, 2010, 02:33:00 PM
Ok, I've been very successful with a recurve on the range and in the field over the years, but I have recently been in a serious FUNK with my shooting. I don't know what has happened. Been so bad that I have bought a couple new "high-end" bows hoping a new feel or grip or whatever would put me back on track. No LUCK. Although I did end up with a really nice Silvertip in the process.

My biggest problem is I always, no matter which bow, get a kick up from the arrow like the NP isn't set right. Always. It's driving me nuts for over a year now.

So here's the plan...I just layed out one feathered and one bareshaft 2018, 2020, 2117, and 2216  30" long. FP's of 125gr thru 250gr are ready.

I have never had anyluck with bareshafting but I have to try something or the upcoming season is in jeopardy. I won't hunt if my arra's aren't true.

I will be shooting my 58" Silvertip, 56# at my 29" draw, FF string, right handed, off the shelf with my brace at 7 5/8.

I will post any questions I have along the way and also progress. It may take a few days as I don't want to shoot enough at one time to tire and skew the results.
Here goes!          :knothead:      

PS. Any and all advice is appreciated.

Here is a static pic of my pre shot form. I hold for a couple secs.

 (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk223/emtp505/fuuldraw001.jpg)
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: lpcjon2 on July 27, 2010, 02:36:00 PM
I would go back to the basics of form.We all tend to get habits we don't realize.This is what I would start on first.IMHO
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: LongStick64 on July 27, 2010, 02:44:00 PM
I had the same problem until I switched to three under. You may be putting too much presure on the nocks.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: kevgsp on July 27, 2010, 02:45:00 PM
downward pressure on the arrow at full draw can cause the kick up, just a thought.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 27, 2010, 03:31:00 PM
I have tried three under...yuck. Just can't get the feel for it.

I may use two nocks though, one over and one under.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: KAZ on July 27, 2010, 04:08:00 PM
Robert - Just a quick observation, I do not own a Silver Tip however 7-5/8" brace height seems low to me... I shoot my Black Widow @8-5/8". If it were me I would increase the brace height while monitoring feel, vibration, sound, and of course arrow flight. You'll need to adjust your nock height as you fiddle with brace height. Maybe start with 1/2"to 5/8" above horizontal to the shelf to the bottom of the nock-set. For split finger I would think this would show you a nock high leaving the bow but this should avoid false readings from hitting the shelf, then you can move it down as you dial it in. This setting will depend on your arrow/nock diameter so you'll just have to see. Shelf build-up and Bow Limb Tiller also affect your nock travel so if necessary we could dive in deeper. If the Silver Tip really likes that low of a brace height and tiller is decent then many other variables exist, High FOC can make nock point settings much more critical and a tighter window of forgiveness... Enough for now, let us know if we can help with specifics.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: xtrema312 on July 27, 2010, 04:30:00 PM
My first thought is arrow sliding down the string or index finger pressure on the arrow.  Check the arrow shaft with your eyes at full draw and move the finger pressure some to see if the arrow is flexing down.  To fix try getting the index finger up a little above the arrow at the draw, put a little more pressure on the middle finger at the start of the take up of the string, and use a good deep hook.  Also watch the string torque with the lower fingers if you cant.  This also cause shelf hits and nock high arrow kick.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 27, 2010, 05:50:00 PM
KAZ, I been up as high as 8 1/4 for brace. I asked Beth at Schafer and got a reply that 7 1/4 to 7 1/2 would be pretty close on that model. It is quiet there.

Just got in from shooting. As usaul bareshafting proves useless to me.  Every bareshaft hit 8 - 10in low of fletched out to 30yds. Started at 1/4 nock to 3/4in. I was always midline, but still horrible kick-up. Not one time did I ever have a bareshaft hit above a fletched.
2020 was best with 150gr pt, but when I put a broadhead on it sucked. That was at 9/16 NP.

9/16 seems to be the best, but bareshaft dives there too. Even tried 3 under.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: bornagainbowhunter on July 27, 2010, 05:59:00 PM
You might want to video your shooting.  This will let you pick it apart in slo-mo to see where the problem lies.  If you have the same problem with several different bows, not being critical, its is you or your form.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: tecum-tha on July 27, 2010, 06:15:00 PM
I don't get what your problem really is?
Is it erratic arrow flight with a bow and arrow combination that worked great before?
I think it is more a new "nice looking" bow.
What was the old bow and arrow combo that worked great?
Are the arrows riding up and down and nock point adjustments don't help? What are your arrows doing?
Are you shooting with a tab or glove?
Did you check for a string groove in your glove or tab that hooks into the string leading to an uneven release? (Not all fingers in the same line?)
Different arrows will only help for left and right shooting problems. Can you group arrows within reason?
Did you ever try a tab with a finger seperator?
Try this:
Nock point 5/8 of an inch above square. Take care how you place your fingers on the string and "pull" bow for about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch.
Like that you lock your fingers in place and get a consistent hand position. Then raise bow arm and pull normal into your anchor point.
Concentrate on a good follow-through....
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: MSwickard on July 27, 2010, 06:33:00 PM
Robert

Set your nock point so you nock the arrow above the nock point.  If you are getting some downward pressure on release, this will keep the arrow from sliding down the string.

Mike
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on July 27, 2010, 06:57:00 PM
Another vote for get your form right and your probably torquing the arrow away from the nock or torquing the arrow into the nock.  I struggle with this with the same results and had to retrain myself on the right finger "hook" tension on the string without squeezing my fingers together on the arrow.

If you were shooting great and now it sucks it is the ground connection, not the equipment.  Focus on your form and definately video.  Video review is helping me solve the problems I have been struggling with.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Buckeye Trad Hunter on July 27, 2010, 07:24:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by KAZ:
Robert - Just a quick observation, I do not own a Silver Tip however 7-5/8" brace height seems low to me... I shoot my Black Widow @8-5/8". If it were me I would increase the brace height while monitoring feel, vibration, sound, and of course arrow flight. You'll need to adjust your nock height as you fiddle with brace height. Maybe start with 1/2"to 5/8" above horizontal to the shelf to the bottom of the nock-set. For split finger I would think this would show you a nock high leaving the bow but this should avoid false readings from hitting the shelf, then you can move it down as you dial it in. This setting will depend on your arrow/nock diameter so you'll just have to see. Shelf build-up and Bow Limb Tiller also affect your nock travel so if necessary we could dive in deeper. If the Silver Tip really likes that low of a brace height and tiller is decent then many other variables exist, High FOC can make nock point settings much more critical and a tighter window of forgiveness... Enough for now, let us know if we can help with specifics.
Black widows have such a high brace height because their design is a rear mounted limb system.  Generaly somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 1/2" is a good brace height for a regular front mounted limb design.

Are you torqueing the string (twisting your hand) while you're shooting?
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: mattmcdonald on July 27, 2010, 10:04:00 PM
have you tried just pulling back and relaseing fast i dont know a whole lot about it but it has helped me before i can be shooting poorly and do that and hit right where i want i think it just takes your mind off messing up
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 27, 2010, 10:09:00 PM
tecum-tha, yes had the same problem with a bow that I  used to shootgreat with. I know it's me. I suck.

My accuracy is still good. I can puttem in a 4-6in circle at 35yds, but always the kick up like I said.  

I used to shoot at 40- 60 yds and was very good. Not so anymore.
I know a new bow doesn't fix it. Just looking for a new feel to hopefully find my groove. That's a good excuse to get one anyways.lol
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: COMPOUNDLESS IN CONCRETE on July 27, 2010, 10:20:00 PM
Definitely use a nocking point above and below the arrow nock.  I use to get that little "hiccup" and had moved the nocking point to the extreme in both directions with no improvement, it would actually get worse.  I read on here about add a nock point underneath and tried it and it worked.  I use B-50 string material for both nocking points.

There use to be a video on youtube showing how much upward pressure is on the bowstring when a release is attached directly to the string.  I know, that is compound related but I think the same upward pressure is applied with fingers.  It showed how upon release, the arrow slipped down the string during release and bounced off the arrow rest or in our case the shelf.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Ray on July 28, 2010, 06:27:00 AM
Looking at your pic,you might try raising your knock point.Your form looks good but at full draw your arrow(to me)looks low on the knock end.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: chopx2 on July 28, 2010, 01:13:00 PM
In an effort to help the process of elimination:

Did you change anything? Different nocks, different rest/shelf material? Did you try rotating yout cock feather in? Did you check the tiller of your limbs?

Do you have or know someone who has a mechanical release? That would tell you if it is your string hand.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Grant Young on July 28, 2010, 01:47:00 PM
Robert- When my arrow flight suffers like you described and I check out my brace ht. and NP and they are fine, I have to figure it's me. I have always ( waay over forty years) had a tendency to let my ring finger get a little "lazy" and just go along for the ride. When that happens, my arrow flight suffers. To correct the problem, I make sure to get a good, solid deep hook with my third finger and the problem almost always goes away. I know that most of the time, our issues and cures are highly personal and its tough (for me,anyway)to promote my quirks at large but that may help a little.  Grant
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: tecum-tha on July 28, 2010, 03:42:00 PM
Ray is right, in the picture this looks a little odd.Did you change your grip style from a low wrist to a high wrist? That would lead to a difference in elevation of the front of the arrow at full draw. Did you change your anchor finger from middlefinger to forefinger?
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: M60gunner on July 28, 2010, 04:27:00 PM
I agree with xtreama 312. Ken Beck went over this same issue at the shooting clinic. I used to have a simalar issue until I became aware of my finger placement on the string.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 29, 2010, 10:24:00 AM
Thanks for all the advice guys.  I went way up on brace and the bow doesn't feel as "clean" there so I went back down to 7 5/8. Much crisper adn smooth there.

I didn't have a chance to shoot yesterday. Today I will put a nock above and below my arrow and see what happens.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 29, 2010, 12:43:00 PM
Shot this AM and made a unexpected discovery. This does not make sense to me.
You guys pretty much convinced me it was my split finger release cuasing the problem.

So first I added a nock under the arrow to eliminate any slippage. No dice. Same problem.

Then I simply shot an arrow three under and presto...perfect! So I'm pumped and keep shooting and I get better and better withthis method. I'm  shooting as good as ever.
So I decide since I'm doing three under I don't need the extra noc onder my arrow.
WRONG!!!
Right back to the extreme kick as bad as ever! So I put the nock back on and shooting good again.?

How in the world is my arrow sliding down the string with a three under hold? I even noticed that my bottom nock point is  sliding down the string after I shoot a few arrows. It's clamped fairly tight, so must be quite a bit of down force going on here.

I'm shooting great and I aint gonna change a thing, but would like to understand what's going on here.

Thanks everyone for the input and helping me along.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: chopx2 on July 29, 2010, 12:48:00 PM
Strange...Wonder if you aren't putting upward pressure on the arrow and pinning the arrow nock against the string nock preventing a clean release. By adding a nock below I wonder if it keeps your fingers from sliding up and pinning the arrow nock...yes a definate swag on my part, but I like mysteries
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 29, 2010, 12:50:00 PM
I must add  that I can now bareshaft using three under and a double nock point and very good results.
I have never been able to do anything good with bareshafting till now. Kinda neet to see that it actually works.

Ended up with a 30in 2117, three 4in feathers,150 gr BH.  Nock at 5/8 and braced at 7 5/8.  Total arro weight 550gr.

Three under makes my bow sound louder, but that's ok with me.  :archer:
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 29, 2010, 12:54:00 PM
chopx2, what's stranger than that is why can't I shoot split finger since I now have a nock above and below my arrow ?
I should be able to adjust NP to shoot split..correct?  Can't to it for some reason, but like I said ....not changin a thing.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: kbetts on July 29, 2010, 12:59:00 PM
An extra feather would help straighten out that long arrow with a bh.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 29, 2010, 01:03:00 PM
Arras flyz like lazers now  :archer2:
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Brian Krebs on July 29, 2010, 01:30:00 PM
no wonder I went through target panic while I was shooting competitively- read this whole thread; and then realize just how many things we can do wrong !

this is the scariest thread I have ever read.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: chopx2 on July 29, 2010, 02:26:00 PM
"Ignorance is bliss"

From Thomas Gray's poem, Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College (1742): "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 29, 2010, 03:27:00 PM
Didn't mean to scare ya Brian.    :D
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: RocketDog on July 29, 2010, 04:18:00 PM
If this is the case with all your bows, it must be a hitch in form -- unless you have a major setup problem with every bow.

Your brace height is probably good, and a nock set of around 7 5/8 is probably good.

Unusual string pressure from either your index or ring finger can make an arrow do weird things.  If you have recently started relaxing your ring finger after reaching anchor, that is likely the problem.  Go back to keeping your finger tension steady all the way through the shot.

Riser hand reaction to recoil can move the end of an arrow.  Your reaction might be moving the bowarm up instead of steady or down.

If you have a new glove that is not broken in it can wreak havoc with arrow flight, or a stiffer glove than you were used to.

Review, by book, video or coach, EVERY part of good mechanics from nocking the arrow to hearing the arrow hit the target.  Go through your own form, develop a repeatable sequence for what you should be, and are, doing.  Memorize that sequence so you can do it without thought and refer to it when something isn't working.

I have had moments of similar funk, but never lasted more than a couple days, and I always blame it on age!
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: RocketDog on July 29, 2010, 04:33:00 PM
Oops!  I missed page 2 before posting.  This is truly a strange thing.  Many folks like 3 under, but it is tough for longer ranges.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Robert Honaker on July 29, 2010, 05:21:00 PM
I went back out and shot a few and everything is great. Even screwed on a 2020, had to drop down to 100gr broadhead, but flew awesome.
I can cant, shoot vertical, snap shoot or hold a few seconds and it's all good.

I really like the 2020, skinny, but heavy walled. I think that's what I'll go with this year.



Life is good.
Again, thanks for the advice everybody.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Overspined on July 30, 2010, 12:35:00 AM
I think you should move your index finger about 1/8" up from the arrow so you are not placing pressure on the nock. Just don't touch the arrow with the index finger. Not too much, just a tad. My dad had the same problem but I just stood behind him and could see the arrow flexing at full draw (it flexed down). This caused the same problem you are experiencing. On the first shot that he moved that finger off of the arrow, perfect from there on...give it a try.
Title: Re: In a funk (going for the reset button) STRANGE DISCOVERY
Post by: Overspined on July 30, 2010, 12:39:00 AM
I see you fixed the problem, and it is apparently the pressure you are getting on the nock in some way or another. Glad you fixed it, but when you decide to go back to split   ;)  try what I mentioned. Generally 3 under is louder and tougher to tune, ah you have heard it all before.