Im expecting to open a can of worms here, so here goes! When hunting elk, i understand that alot of you prefer the 2 blade heads over 3 or 4 blade heads, i realize this is based on the 2 bladers penetration qualities and im goin to jump on board for this season! Im new to elk hunting, but have chosen a Ace Express 165gr head for my elk hunting over the 160gr Snuffer i was goin to use originally! Im doin this for two reasons, but am a bit nervous about using a 2 blade head on an animal thats notorious for not being a very good bleeder anyway! Ive read many stories in Trad Bowhunter and other books on an elks' uncanny ability to almost quit bleeding even when hit good, as well as there being able to go miles with only a single functioning lung! Its a crapshoot in my mind because a better blood trail could almost certainly be attained with a multiple blade head, but then again it doesnt sound like it would amount to much if you only shutdown one lung! Any help or experiences to ease the uncertainty a bit would be greatly appreciated :banghead:
I took a 5x5 bull last year with a 175 grain Grizzly single bevel. I hit him back behind the ribs on the right because he was quartering away. I'm convinced the head and heavy arrow allowed for extra penatration and the arrow ended up in the left lung. Missed the right lung due to the angle. I was able to cow call to him and stop him before he ran too far. He stood in that same spot looking for my call for 45 minutes then slowely walked into the trees. He expired and crashed about 20 minutes later within 100 yards of where I shot him. very little exterior bleeding due to the lack of exit hole and the steep angle of the arrow.
Two years ago I shot another, smaller bull broad side but high with the same head. The arrow went through the upper part of the entry side shoulder blade and the head burried in his off side shoulder at a downward angle as I was above him. My arrow broke into three pieces when he ran. Took out the off side lung. He ran about 75 - 100 yards and stopped. I again cow called. He moved another 50 yards then beded. It took him just under 2 hours to die but he didn't move since I didn't push him.
All in all I'm convinced those two shots probably would not have turned out so well with a three blade head, perhaps they would have but I'm sticking with two blade heads for elk. Good luck. Make sure your heads are sharp and hit the cow call once your arrow finds its mark.
I won't get into the 2,3,4 blade thing but elk bleed like any other animal.Bears have long hair and a lot of fat so often,their blood may not hit the ground.
The other thing to consider is,in the West,unlike where you are,the soil,normally is more loamy and it is much easier to track,especially large animals running.
I would say,just use your best judgement on which broadhead to use and concentrate on getting it scary sharp.If you aren't perfectly sure that it is,get back here and get help till you have it and of course,like in hunting all game,practice and focus on putting that arrow in the pocket.It is just that simple.Part of that concept of "putting it in the pocket" is keeping your cool enough to pick a spot and hopefully you have practiced enough that form falls together,even when your brain is partially scrambled.
It is just like when you hunt bears,make sure you hit BOTH lungs.Good luck.
I have only shot one elk. Broadside with Magnus I 165 two blade. BH penetrated to the far shoulder and backed about half way when he ran. He crashed dead in less than 50 yards under 10 seconds. I like a good sharp two blade.
I agree with JimB, pick a broadhead you like, concentrate on getting it sharp and getting it where it needs to go and you will be fine. Last elk was with a 125 thunderhead three blade, 500 grain arrow out of a 52 pound bow at 19 yards...in one side, out the other.
Two holes will always "bleed out" better than one, no matter what kind of head you shoot, and a good sharp two-blade will penetrate deeper, all things being equal than a multiple blade head. Elk, being the large critters that they are, take a bit more to get through them, so your instincts are correct. Also, to maximize your two-hole percentages, try and take broadside or as near broadside as possible. Even on a quartered away elk, you could likely have to shoot through pauch to get to the "good stuff" and an elks stomach when full is like shooting into a hay bale. A lot of stuff can happen, and IMO, elk are among the toughest of critters on marginal shots, so using a two-blade that is scary sharp and taking high percentage type shots is always a good plan. That's how we do it!
As mentioned the best idea is to let your elk bed and die in place with a good or bad shot. Most elk are lost due to being pushed. 2 blades that are razor sharp definately help with penetration which is needed for elk. I shoot razor sharp 175 grain Grizzly El Grandes on 584 grain arrows out of a 55lb r/d longbow.
Ditto what Mark said. Am I an expert? No. But I have killed fifteen of them so I do have some experience. Have I ever hit one and lost it? Yes. The one I lost and all the ones I have helped to track for other people that we didn't find got away because of a lack of penetration. If you hit them right just about any broadhead will do. But if they move or you have a bad release or something else happens you want some insurance. I won't use anything but a two blade. Take it for what it's worth. Gary
Have not heard from guys shooting the 3 bladed I am looking for a Bhead that works on Deer as well as elk/blackbear I really like the terminator 150 elite.. I have work weeks on end with the arrow to get it to shoot (bareshaft) out to 25 to 30 yards add the feathers and Bh and that arrows shoot better than good.Now with that being said ,shot placement is the key with any sharp BH ,Hope I am thinking right, Shooting widow 51@28 525gr
I used 2-bladed heads for years, they did the job fine. I switched to the 3-blade Wensel Woodsman when they first came out and will never go back to a 2-blade.
I use them for Blacktail deer and elk, and they open a gushing hole that I personally prefer over what all the 2-blade heads ever did.
Here's an old pic of a bull I shot with a 125 gr WW, complete penetration and a total mess...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/treekiller/trophy%20photos/2002Bull4.jpg)
Just wanted to add I have several of the new Phoenix heads I'm going to mount up and if they fly as well as my WW's I'll be giving them a go at elk in about a month!
We are all victims of our experiences, and it seems that it's quite possible to draw different conclusions from similar/same events.
Me, I have given up on two blade heads while others, as you have read, will only shoot them. Fair enough.
I encourage you to use a "heavy" arrow, take close broadside shots. I really don't care much for quartering away shots...hitting the stomach that's full of wet grass/forbs...is a recipe for disaster with any broadhead. ( If you question this go shoot a gunny sack filled with soggy grass clippings and get back to me with your results.)
For many reasons lots of elk are shot high resulting in a broadhead in the scapula. It's doubtful to me that any BH will get through the center section, perhaps it's possible near the edges. Would I swap out some potential small penetration advantage of a two blade head over a three or four blade head? No.
Just suppose you got an extra 3-4 inches of penetration with a two blade head and took out one lung while a three blade head just stuck in the scapula. Chances are you will never find that bull unless you are hunting in the snow and even that's very chancy. So would you as bow hunter prefer an elk with a sore shoulder vs. one that has damage to one lung that you would probably never recover? Neither choice is great but one is defiantly better than the other.
Stay away from the scapula!
Perhaps a "Dr. Asby" set-up with a single bevel head would bring better results but I am not inclined to go there. Hopefully we will get some real life experiences this fall and that may change some thinking.
Incidentally all meat packing houses as a matter of course check very carefully before sawing any of the major bones, broadheads and meat saws don't get along together very well.
Elk are really no different than other critters, take out the goodies and they are down in 35-85 yards. If you don't hear or see him fall its best to wait at least four hours before taking up the trail. A "pushed "animal can cover an incredible amount of real estate in just a few seconds.
Despite what others may say never leave an elk lay overnight, it will definitely taint the meat.
Consider using a smaller three blade head like a Woodsman. They work for me and Treekiller. (Hi Ron...any info on my Mt Emily tag?)
Good luck...your mileage may vary!
Bob
No 2-blades here & I'm a slow learner! (grin) I've taken several elk with 2 blades & little to no blood is ever found, all died & were recovered but not without a decent search & a bit of hair pulling!
We've taken the last 8 with 3 blades & 2 blade with bleeders & the results are night & day! Lots of blood for tracking & this is important in the thick stuff where the ground is not readily seen for long stretches, you need blood on the undergrowth for good tracking! My favorite head & setup is a 500grn total wt. arrow tipped with a 3-blade Magnus SnuffereSS 125grn. I've loaded the front with up to 20-75 grains, all did well. We shoot 55#-60# bows.
ElkNut1
Put me down as agreeing with the fellas using 3 or 4 blade heads on elk. I have seen the difference in blood trails. That being said, I recommend anyone shooting 50 pounds or less to use a 2 blade head. Elk in my opinion, go down easier and quicker than a deer with the same type hit. They don't seem to have the adrenaline pumping as much.
I plan to try the Centaur Big game head with a 600+ arrow. The two deer I shot dropped in site and I coul dsee the blood trail from my tree stand all the way to them. I use the sindle bev and the holes and shaped like a football/ halfmoon.
I'll throw in me two bits. In my experience during ten years as an outfitter for elk and mule deer in utah,(eighty % of my clients have been traditional bowhunters) the majority of poor hits (aprox 70 percent) have been too far back.
On a hit that encounters bone (greater than a rib) a two blade head may be superior. But on anything in back of the goodies I feel that a three blade head is better. So I play the odds that way.
That much said, if a hunter is shooting much less than 50 lbs, or has a short draw, I do recommend a two blade head.
The main things as noted above are to have your broadhead shaving sharp, and to put it through the boiler room. Right in the crease and 4/5ths of the way up is perfect. Hit them there and you will have a great blood trail and an easy recovery no matter what kind of head you use. (Excepting expandables)
I personally us a woodsman mounted on a 125 gr steel adapter and an axis arrow. Total weight 600 grains. Two years ago I shot an elk at 36 yards (not usually recommended). The arrow took the elk quartering away, went in just in front of the third rib forward, and exited the opposite shoulder. Over thirty inches of tissue damage, and then out the other side. It hung by the fletching end and then fell along the track. I shoot a 60 lb longbow at 29.5 inches.
Good luck ya'll and many great hunts
I personaly think for elk the best thing is to take out both lungs no matter which broadhead used. Any elk that I have callapsed the lungs they didn't go far at all,3 with in sight. An elk can cover alot of ground with one good lung. I had one that went around 500 yards on one lung hit with a 2 blade/bleeders on a steep angle with the lung clogging the exit wound leaving no blood. Were you hit them has as much to do with the blood trail as the broadhead in my opinion. A high hit lung will not leave as big of trail as lower hit in the lungs. I think that there are lots of veriables to leaving a good blood trail. I think with the right set up you will be fine with 3 blades. I shoot a 550 gr arrow at 29.5" @ 57 lb at my draw I think it will push any broadhead throught with "good shot placement". I have two elk tags this year I will have 160 gr snuffers and 160 gr grizzlys. I am a broadhead junkie so I need to know personally how they will preform. I bet both broadheads will do fine and if I'm a good hunter this year I can see how both do. :laughing:
3 blade without a doubt.
Aram- 4/5ths up?? Sounds kind of high to me?? No??
QuoteOriginally posted by bob@helleknife.com:
Despite what others may say never leave an elk lay overnight, it will definitely taint the meat.
Despite what you say, this is not always the case. I have recovered 4 elk that had to sit overnight and the meat from all of them was not only fine, but absolutely delicious. Situations vary. Exactly how long it sits, the outside temperature overnight, how good you are at butchering and getting the meat cold once you find the animal are all critical to the time in which an animal must be recovered. Your all-encompassing statement is definitely off the mark.
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As for the broadhead, I've always like two-blade heads. On good hits, there will usually be no problem finding the animal. On bad hits, I prefer the better penetration, but I'm sure that a 3-blade will work better in some situations. It's all a matter of which hits you're most worried about.
QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
Aram- 4/5ths up?? Sounds kind of high to me?? No??
Up the crease and no more than 1/2 way up for me. 4/5ths is practically on the spine.
If elk are like deer- 4/5 up could be ABOVE the spine!
I shoot for the bottom 1/2 of the animal and like to aim right in the crease of the shoulder where the leg joint breaks to make the lower shoulder. If I hit low with this aim I hit the heart / low lungs. If a bit high I will hit high lungs. Back a bit is mid lungs. If you hit 4/5 up the animal your gonna hit meat and maybe spine not vitals. Based on his stated experience, I think he typed that number wrong.
Well this is goin just as i expected! Like i stated in an earlier thread, i have 3 heads that id be comfortable hunting with right now as i can get them sharp and they shoot well... a 160 Snuffer, 160 STOS, and 160 Ace Express! Im leaning towards the Ace as its kinda a friendly compromise between the other 2 heads, its got a wider cut than the STOS, but not as wide as the Snuffer! Ive always been a lower vital shooter just like 'Forge, lots of heart/low lung hits, blood always seems to find its way to the ground that way!!!
Straight Arrow,
Sorry I gored one of your sacred cows.
Imagine this scenario.
You go to your favorite N.Y. steak house. The waiter is attentive, polite and working hard for his tip.
"Good evening Mr. Arrow, nice to see you and the misses again. Tonight's special is a prime fillet of beef. About sunset on the day of the harvest, with temperatures in the high 70's, we shot the beef in liver about sunset. We let the steer wander off to die and then we let it marinate in the bile until several hours after sunrise. You will also be pleased to know that the bears and coyotes didn't take more than 40 lbs of meat. The morning sun kept the critter warm and the legs had just obtained "lift off" before we quartered the beast. As luck would have it we made it to the packing house just before they closed for the day".
Me, I'm ordering the fish.
Sure it's possible that the elk could lie in its bed and die right before sunrise and the meat would be "ok". But why even go there?
"I have recovered 4 elk that had to sit overnight." Few if any elk "have" to sit overnight. It certainly is easier, more convenient to find them in the morning...but HAVING to sit over night...not for me. It's simple, if you have any doubts, don't shoot.
Hunting in the evenings is great and you can get in to lots of critters, just be prepared for that almost dark shot and the work that goes with it.
Should we someday meet on the trail I'll fix us dinner. You bring the veggies and I'll supply the meat
Good luck this season.
Bob
Used to use two blades on everything, but when the Woodsman's came out, I tried them and haven't used anything else since, at least here and in Africa. I might try the non-vented ones next time I need some more, as my son uses them and likes them. I also use heavy arrows, 700 grain carbons out of a #65 longbow, and haven't had an arrow not penetrate out the other side on at least five elk.
BTW, as far as leaving elk out overnight, the two times it's happened to me (gut shots), I was disappointed in the meat quality. Either tainted or full of blood. Some guys I hunt with have had bad experiences with the meat as well. I try to avoid it.
KSdan, you are absolutely right. The number I meant to type was 2/5 of the way up.
My apologies for the confusion. Aram.
I shoot 160 gr Snuffer mounted on A Laminated Birch arrow that I doctor up and the finished arrows wiegh in the high 700 grains! I have never had a problem with penetraion (all passthrough) or blood! My cousin and I were discussing this just the other night and after many years of archery guiding elk hunts in Montana I am convinced that most problems arise from shot placement! In all the elk I have seen archery killed I would say 85% or more were actually shot a bit high and a bit to far back even though proven deadly the placement sure dont help the trail any, I personally think if a fella shoots then broadside and a bit lower in the chest this makes for a messy vlood trail that Ray Charles could follow no matter what head is used!
Aram- actually by your post you sounded reasonable and knowledgeable so I figured there must be mistype. 2/5 sounds right. I usually think below half on deer. I assumed elk must be similar.
Thanks for the input
Dan in KS
Hello Mark B & Mark U,
I have used both two and three blade broadheads successfully on elk numerous times, and continually change my mind regarding which type is best on elk. Currently, I have compromised and use a four blade Eclipse hoping to get the best of both, the penetration of a two blade and the blood trail of the three blades. With whitetails the four blade broadhead has preformed great, hopefully and it will work well on elk for me this fall. However, more important to myself then the type of broadhead is where it hits the elk, the flight of the arrow (Has it over come paradox is it flying straight on impact?), and the weight of the arrow. Without all of these things being correct it doesn't much matter what broadhead you use.