Trad Gang

I received a new bow a while back.
In order to get my arrow flying decent I had to put the string nock 1 1/8" high.
The arrow looks like it's going to shoot right into the ground when sitting on the shelf.

I've never seen a bow that needed to be set up this way.

Does having to do this mean the tiller is way out?

Thank you

What are the bows stats and what kind of rest and the arrow stats are needed as well.

It is a Siegework Creations GenIII. 46# at my 28" draw
The bow is 57" tip to tip when strung. It doesn't have a listed AMO length. It seems to want a 8 1/2" brace.
The arrows are 60-65 spine ash with 190 points.
Or 50-55 spine spruce with 125grn points.

I'm also shooting split finger.

I'm using a bear hair rest with some thin peel and stick felt on the window.


I don't have the spine perfectly tuned in.
Just thought it was weird to need the arrow nock soooo high to keep the arrow from porpoising.

Thank you

Oh..
A lower nock point just makes it worse.
It doesn't seem so far off that it sort of "came back in" if you know what I mean.

With a nocking point 1 1/8" high, something is definitely wrong. Can't help though. I shoot aluminum arrows.

Good luck.......no, 1 1/8" high isn't normal.  I traded the one I had off just so I wasn't reminded of all the hassles I had with him.

 :deadhorse:

do you know how to check for tiller on the limbs ?  I would look at the bows tiller and see if it is reasonable.
ChuckC

No I don't....yet

Lots of good info here on that though.
Just didn't want to have to test and work on a new bow.

As it so happens, I have a replacement bow being made. The guy wouldn't refund my money. The bow has other problems as well. I was to have had it 2 weeks ago   :rolleyes:

Just worried what new found problems might come up with the new one.

I was told by the bowyer that 1 1/8 isn't all that far off and might be the string.( which he supplied ).

Just seemed wrong.

Thanks.

been playing this trad game for better than 50 years & never ever heard of that.

I have a Bob Lee with a 1/2" high nocking point and I thought that was pretty high. You definitely have a problem-- those arrows sound a bit on the stiff side to me as well.....   :dunno:

did you try 5/8ths above the shelf ?
<>< <--------------------<<<<<<<

I shoot wood arrows, most bows nock at 5/8 for my tuning needs.
Nock height generally has to do with shaft diameter and shooting style................split finger, 3 under and not affected by tiller.
What do you mean by 'porpoising'?

I shoot split finger and generally set up my bows at 5/8" to 7/8" or more.  

I have a couple Widows at 7/8", so your 1 1/8" is only 1/4" from that.  If you are getting great flight, I would not fret over it too much.  Yeah, it may be a tiller situation and if the bowyer is "fixing" it, then fine.

Otherwise, it just seems we are making something simple soooo complex.   :archer2:

QuoteOriginally posted by Cory Mattson:
did you try 5/8ths above the shelf ?
<>< <--------------------<<<<<<<

Yes no good till way higher.
In fact I started at 0"

QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:

What do you mean by 'porpoising'?

The fletching moving up and down considerably when the arrow is flying towards the target.

Thanks

I would start from scratch.7-8" brace and 125 up front and center for the nock and adjust from that point.could the feather rest be hitting the fletching and making the arrow kick up high? maybe try a different rest use the soft velcro instead of the feather rest.

I shoot a high nock 3/4 to 1 inch but I shoot 3 under  so thats normal for me . Im interested in hearing opinons on why some people need higher nock points myself .

I would think it has something to do with tiller. I would think a experienced bowyer may have the answer, ssomeone who has run across this during developement stages. Any bowyers out there have any experience with this?

Do you get better arrow flight if you shoot this bow 3 under?

I am one of those guys that a high knock point works best for me, I have a few bows I'm sure over an inch. Most are 7/8 or just above.

I shoot split finger .... like Blackhawk says if they shoot OK at 1 1/8 just go shoot.

Also you can get arrow bounce having your knock too high.

Seems high to me. Would almost have to hit the index finger on release which would account for the porpoise. Try to set it about 3/8 to 5/8 above the shelf and shoot split, 3 under above and below the nock with the same arrow at about 20 paces and see what the results are

If you have a  feather rest, take it off and shoot right off the shelf. Get all the variables out of the picture.

Does sound like the tiller is off however

Good luck with the new bow

Sam

QuoteOriginally posted by lpcjon2:
I would start from scratch.7-8" brace and 125 up front and center for the nock and adjust from that point.could the feather rest be hitting the fletching and making the arrow kick up high? maybe try a different rest use the soft velcro instead of the feather rest.

I'm using a bear hair rest (rug rest)
I did try from a level position and worked my way up.
After I found it worked at 1 1/8" I tried putting the nock below level....just got worse.

Thank you for the input though.    :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by s_mcflurry:
Do you get better arrow flight if you shoot this bow 3 under?

Haven't tried that.

Have you measured the tiller?
Measure from each fade to the string on both top and bottom limb and compare the numbers it should be less than 1/4" difference.

QuoteOriginally posted by T Folts:
Have you measured the tiller?
Measure from each fade to the string on both top and bottom limb and compare the numbers it should be less than 1/4" difference.

Do you do this at brace or full draw? Or maybe both??
I don't have a tillering "board".

I'm sorry to show my ignorance here.
Do you measure the distance horizontally as an arrow would rest? Or do you measure the actual limbs from fade to limb tips?

Thanks

Measure it braced. Yes the same as an arrow would rest.

QuoteOriginally posted by T Folts:
Measure it braced. Yes the same as an arrow would rest.

Just did that. Comes out to 9 3/4" at the farthest point from the string. Seems to be pretty uniform distance comparing the top and bottom limb throughout their length.

This is sort of a different design for a bow.
Hard to see where the fades exactly are.

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Profile.jpg)

Thank you

Now where the riser stops at the very tip of the fade measure out to the string on both limbs

I had a bow that had a over 1" high nock and the tiller of the bow was way off.It had a negative tiller instead of a 1/8" to 3/16" positive tiller.Sure sounds like the tiller is off.

QuoteOriginally posted by T Folts:
Now where the riser stops at the very tip of the fade measure out to the string on both limbs

That seems to be right at the farthest point from the string.
Both limbs are within 1/8"
top is 9 3/4"
Bottom is 9 5/8"

Thank you for the input!!   :thumbsup:

Sorry to be a pain inna butt, but could you post a full-draw picture?
The more I look at the bow, the more I'm convinced that the lower limb is weak. 1-1/8" is waay high. Hate to be the first to say it, but judging by Siegeworks history with customer service & workmanship reall wouldn't be at all surprised if it's not a bow problem.

QuoteOriginally posted by robtattoo:
 but judging by Siegeworks history with customer service & workmanship reall wouldn't be at all surprised if it's not a bow problem.

I hear you loud and clear on that.
I'm getting worried I might be stuck with this one.
I was promised another but we'll see.
I'll try to get a full draw pic either late tonight or in the morn.

Thanks for the help all!!
  :notworthy:

You may want to try adding a nocking point below the arrow as well, so there are two.  Sometimes an arrow will slide down the string a bit as it is loosed.

rob  
click on the picture, , then using your window as a light box fold it in half and do an overlay.  Doing it that way is not perfect, but it seems to show the bottom limb is pretty close in profile to the top limb.

That grip is pretty severe.  Could the way you are holding that bow be putting wierd pressure on it, making it seem out of tiller ?

Also remember that when you are measuring for nock point, when you put the bow square on the string and on the rest.. the line at the bottom of the square represents a straight line.. .  for the bottom of an arrow.

You should factor in the thickness of the arrow nock before you tie in a nock point, and that starts you at dead even.  Go up from there.

Lots of things could mess with the nock height including a very long draw length, although I see you are saying yours is 28".  You are shooting feathers and no vanes correct ?
ChuckC

Also.. have someone watch as you anchor.  Is your arrow arm elbow in line with the arrow or are you really high or low with the elbow. . translating to maybe uneven stress or torquing the string with your fingers.  Maybe get another person to shoot the bow in front of you and see if it does the same things for them.
ChuckC

So.....the bowyer said that the string could be the problem????! I've never heard of that. I think that's an excuse. I've been hearing lots of negative things about that bow company as well.

arrows sound a little stiff.i shoot a widow plv 53@26.i shoot 60 65 spine.work really good for me,but your bow is much lighter.spine may be the problem.buy an arrow test kit and try that.cheaper way to go to find out if thats the problem.lots of luck,steve

Can't take a pic...no camera tonight.

I did notice that the bow stacks up quicker and doesn't want to let me draw as far when I place my string hand at the 1 1/8 high position.

If I lower my string hand down the string about 3 1/2 inches the bow will let me pull another inch or so without stacking.

Seems like the upper limb is bending to it's max quite a bit sooner than the lower.

The bow feels the "sweetest" when you place the string hand directly behind the grip or just a tad lower.

If this was a 3 piece I'd think I flipped the limbs.

This bow seems to have a high shelf. Meaning it is up quite a bit from the physical center of the bow. I know a little is normal but this one seems a bit much. You can see this in the pic.

Thank you everyone!!

Something is wrong with that bow............James

I've bareshaft tuned hundreds of bows, and the only times I've seen nocking points this high was with short recurves that were designed for an elevated rest.

Also, it's possible to tune for decent arrow flight when the arrows are too weak by raising the nocking point. I suggest trying some stiffer arrows, or reduce point weight to see if that helps.

You mentioned that you didn't have the spine tuned in- you really need to get the spine right before you can get the nocking point right. If that doesn't help, I agree with James- there's something wrong with the bow.

My thoughts are...

1st. Don't buy a seigework's product, but you already did, so let's work with what you have,

2nd. ALMOST everyone measures tiller by looking at the "deepest part of the upper limb and lower limb," but that is incorrect. What you are looking for is the point where the limb goes from the working section to the non-working riser. By "riser" I do NOT mean the center block of wood the riser is milled from. Instead, I am referring to ALL OF the non-working portion of the bow. You have to measure from where the limb STARTS to work...hence..."FADEOUT." This is where the "riser" (non-working part of the bow) fades out to the limb (the working part of the bow).  Some bows don't have a "deep part" for example...

 (http://www.21stcenturylongbow.com/images/Bow%20%20-%20model%20500%20braced.jpg)

And, MANY BOWS have a "deep part" in the riser that is a non-working section) of the bow and has nothing to do with tiller or upper limb. Therefore this is isn't where you properly measure either. For example, if you look at this bow, you can see the "deep spot" on the lower limb is just below the grip and considerably above the fadeout, yet the upper limb doesn't have such a "hallowed" spot on the riser. This bow may "measure" an inch so of different tiller when looking at the "deepest" measurements, but if measured properly from the fadeouts it may measure even to 1/4" (depending on the design of bow and shooter)...

 (http://www.yeoldearcheryshoppe.com/images/wright_stalker_recurve.jpg)

The proper way to measure tiller is to measure at the fadeouts.

3rd. Make sure your fletching isn't hitting the bow. For the sake of time, try shooting "cock feather in" and see what happens. If it shoots better that way, you need to turn your nocks so you don't have a feather pointed down.

4th. I suspect that if you are already that high, moving 3 under wouldn't help as that would further work the lower limb. HOWEVER, using a stick on arrow rest to raise the arrow might help a lot as that would further work the upper limb...and this is what I believe you need in this situation. Also, I suspect that if you get your hand OFF the grip and only hold the bow by the throat of the grip, that too may help a lot.

5th. I wouldn't change how I shoot to accomidate a poorly crafted bow. I wouldn't sell it either. I would either want a refund, retiller the bow myself, or I would give it away to a kid to use as a yard plinker.

Sorry...but these are my thoughts on the matter.

QuoteOriginally posted by Lee Dogman:
My thoughts are...

I would either want a refund, retiller the bow myself, or I would give it away to a kid to use as a yard plinker.

Sorry...but these are my thoughts on the matter.

Thank you for the info.
I really appreciate it.

Refund isn't going to happen.
Guy already told me " new bow in 3 weeks or I'll instantly refund your money"

It has been 5.5 weeks now. Wants more time and will not refund....Not a man of his word if nothing else.

Anyway, I didn't start this post to blast anyone.
I still have a dim glimmer of hope I might get the replacement....someday.
Just puts me in a bad spot. Do I try to fix a bad bow.
I wish I would've ordered a Maddog. I just was looking for an inexpensive decent bow.
I have never-ever had dealings with a place like this.


Thank you for the help everyone!!!
  :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:

If you retiller it yourself, only do so AFTER you are 100% sure the merchant won't help you...otherwise, they will use your alterations as an excuse to not stand behind their work.

Also, if you do retiller it, be sure to tiller from the working fadeouts, and not from a non-working section, as that top "hook" in the riser above the shelf doesn't appear to be working the same as the lower half.

Thank you for the wise thoughts on the matter.

I have a flat shelf Ben Pearson that has a rediculous high nock point. Even it isn't that high though. 1 1/8  would make me think you would have to hold the bow at an odd angle to get the arrow anywhere close to hitting where you want. Hmmm.....

Weird thing is it does shoot ok.
I can hold a decent group with it.
Just feels weird.
The top limb is maxing out and the bottom limb has a couple inches to go.