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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: jhg on July 13, 2010, 11:56:00 PM

Title: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: jhg on July 13, 2010, 11:56:00 PM
This past weekend I was able to scout a new spot that is inside a designated wilderness area. These places are pretty cool, because they usually have some pretty good stands of old growth, even if there might be signs of pre wilderness protection useage- like open range cattle operations, small mining claims or trappers cabins. Thats part of the charm- knowing they are protected and what is there, whatever it is, will always be there to be enjoyed for those of us who wish to walk into them. They have designated trails, but the idea is to "leave no trace" when you go off them.

Anyway, I was bush-wacking along and came across a 2-3 foot wide and over two mile long trail. It originally began as just flagged, as far as I could tell, one or two yrs ago and then has been improved over that time- most recently this 4th of July weekend. Some of the trees these guys cut down where as big round as my leg. They blazed a lot of trees too and cleared out anything on the ground around several wallows.
It was pretty wholesale alteration with no regard for others using the area. Or other hunters, for that matter, interested in feeling the special excitment of hunting game in a mostly untouched place. I counted at least 50 live trees they axed before I gave that up.
The trail led right to a turnout at the end of a 4 wheel drive access that was on the edge of the wilderness. I checked the map and the trail is not on a boundry, the nearest being over two mile distant. And it is not a right of way. The trail was to access the wallows (without having to be bothered by the usual woods stuff) Like branches to duck under or fallen trees to step over.
I was pretty upset to find this kind of thing since these places literally belong to all of us. They won't retain what is so special about them if we all just decide to go into them and rules be damned blaze, cut and prune or litter our way to an easier hunt.

I plan on contacting the regional office for that area and hope they catch these jokers. I consider this kind of thing the same as poaching. The authors of the trail in question are stealing something from us, while giving our sport a bad name. In general they make a mockery out of the efforts most users put into keeping an area like this "no trace"
I know the forest will reclaim itself- but, well, you get the idea. Don't be like them. We all deserve better.

Joshua
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: straitera on July 14, 2010, 12:12:00 AM
Get in line son. There's too many to be sure that think the rest of us owe them. Sad. Let enforcement handle it.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on July 14, 2010, 12:22:00 AM
Let the forest service know and they will sort it out. I would bet on an outfitter of some kind.  Most slobs who would do that kind of thing would never make that much effort to do it.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: rappstar on July 14, 2010, 12:29:00 AM
Its possible that it was the forest service blazing a new trail for some reason.  Especially since they were using axes.  There are teams of people living in the wilderness all summer cutting/maintaining trails with saws and axes.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: OkKeith on July 14, 2010, 01:18:00 AM
I agree, it's rough to see others abuse a thing we have high regard for.

Most USFS rules and regs are the same across the country. If it is a wilderness area, no gas motors of any kind can be used, even by Forest Service personel unless a wildfire status has been issued.

An emergency dispensation can be granted to use modern equipment to cut firebreaks though, if I remember right.

Talk to your Regional USFS personel. They will know if it was an authorized cut, but most likely have no idea about it if it was an illegal incursion.

Again, I agree with you. Some people have no respect for our natural resources. Unfortunatly I see it everyday.

OkKeith
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: String Cutter on July 14, 2010, 04:18:00 AM
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Eugene Slagle on July 14, 2010, 06:07:00 AM
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: jhg on July 14, 2010, 08:36:00 AM
Hopefully I can contact them this week. I will drive up and show them the trail if need be. Otherwise its in their hands.

On a side note I did see a cow elk and some large bear scat... big scat means big bear right? ;0)

Joshua
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: John Scifres on July 14, 2010, 09:09:00 AM
Don't plan on contacting them.  Do it.  Right now.  Send them an email with the above post and the location.  I have found some things on public lands and have been pleased with the responses of the authorities.  If you can locate the spot on Google Earth and save a screenshot, or better yet email a placemark to them, all the better.  Thanks for helping protect our heritage.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on July 14, 2010, 10:29:00 AM
Getting a good GPS coordinate to them if you have on is always a big help too. Our local Forestry Service personnel take this stuff very seriously.  I know of several local prosecutions for similar incidents here.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Longbowz on July 14, 2010, 02:37:00 PM
You may find though it was the Forest Service that did it in the process of building a new trail.  I've had a couple places ruined by them in the name of "improving" access.  I can't see an individual flagging then clearing a trail like you described.  

After all the forest belongs to the Forest Service and you are the intruder. At least that's the way they act sometimes.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Bjorn on July 14, 2010, 02:39:00 PM
If this has a connection to Archery and Bowhunting I must have missed it.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Keith Zimmerman on July 14, 2010, 03:47:00 PM
Contact the Forest Service.  Let them handle it.  It is a shame that people do things like this in areas that are supposed to be kept natural.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Steertalker on July 14, 2010, 05:30:00 PM
As mentioned earlier, it quite possible was the NFS.  Last year they came right through the area, designated wilderness area,  I was elk hunt in on dirt bikes.  They were hot rodding around doing donuts and jumping moguls in the meadows.  When confronted they said they were taking pictures of and checking out the trails.  To say the least I was disgusted with them.  

Good luck reporting it but I doubt it will do any good.

Brett
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: MSwickard on July 14, 2010, 05:34:00 PM
If it is Wilderness area (no motorized vehicles even for the FS).  Ok on FS land that is not designated "Wilderness".

Mike
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Steertalker on July 14, 2010, 06:00:00 PM
Yep..that's what I thought, too.  But apparently they can do whatever they please.  It was in the Piedre Wilderness area NW of Pagosa Springs

Brett
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: lpcjon2 on July 14, 2010, 06:24:00 PM
Put out an old trail camera by the turnout and get a couple of pics of them and then you have evidence, and that is what they are going to ask you if you have.Then they can have a good case.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on July 14, 2010, 06:49:00 PM
Bjorn,

I think the tie to archery is that he had the spot dialed in for his archery hunt and then the place got mowed like a lawn.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: jhg on July 14, 2010, 07:21:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
If this has a connection to Archery and Bowhunting I must have missed it.
I was scouting an area that I plan to bow hunt elk in this fall  and (the trail etc) is a interesting topic in regards to bow hunting wilderness areas IMO. However, if this is an off topic subject I will understand. Got riled up is all.


Joshua
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: PAPA BEAR on July 14, 2010, 07:24:00 PM
i was a national forest service employee when i was younger,whenever we cut hiking trails in wilderness area we were required to use axes and nothing gas powered.what color were the flags? that will tell you what it was if the usfs did it. i think orange was hiking trail and blue was survey trail but not real positive.
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: jhg on July 14, 2010, 07:30:00 PM
Of course we will find out when I get a chance to talk to them, but since the "trail" targeted elk wallows it has me tilting toward other hunters.

J-
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Silent Bear on July 14, 2010, 07:46:00 PM
Its sad that people have to do these things maybe someday these people will learn to respect nature for the necessities it gives us in order to survive but I doubt they will ever learn
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: mississippidave on July 14, 2010, 08:27:00 PM
I work for the Forest Service.....no machinery in Wilderness areas at all, even during wildfire.  I spent a week in the Black creek wilderness with a shovel and backpack pump ringing one out about two years ago.  A simple call to the local Ranger District will let you know if the USFS is building new trail.  Our policy right now is no new trails and closing some unneeded admin roads (Travel Managment Rule) so I would be suprised if they're building a trail in a wilderness...
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: mississippidave on July 14, 2010, 08:29:00 PM
Oh and I'll be in Unit 78 for the opener! I can't wait!
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: RC on July 14, 2010, 10:29:00 PM
Sounds like someone did a lot of work just to mark a trail. Probably something the Forest Service has going on.

 The folks around the swamps I hunt hang orange ribbons everywhere. I take them down.RC
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: ChuckC on July 15, 2010, 10:24:00 AM
RC  reading that made me giggle.  A friend came upon a trail that was marked, about every ten yards with long streamers of flagging tape. .. Right up to a tree that was trimmed and ready (shouldn't have been trimmed up like that on public).  He neatly removed most of the flags and replaced them in a large circle, bringing the person right back to the parking area.

Sorry, giggling again.
ChuckC
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: OkKeith on July 16, 2010, 12:35:00 AM
I understand the dislike of seeing flagging while bowhunting, don't use it myself, but I don't think taking it down is right.

Not everyone is good in the woods. Tampering with the flagging might get someone lost or hurt. I agree it's unsightly on public ground. I think I would rather see the flagging than sit in the stand with my bow and watch somebody blunder around in the dark, lost and scared. What if it's a young person just learning to hunt?

It needs to come down after season but if it's not against the rules to use it in the public hunting area, I would think taking them down would be. Just doesn't seem like the "higher road" type thing we talk about all the time.

OkKeith
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: KSdan on July 16, 2010, 10:38:00 AM
I agree with OkKeith. . . was thinking the same thing. . .

Not my preference, but could have been a young guy or even an older man with difficulty navigating in the dark.  It is no more wrong than shooting a compound. . .

Dan in KS
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: ChuckC on July 16, 2010, 11:51:00 AM
You can easily extrapolate and say that this was all garbage and they were leaving it in the woods.  If I dump trash on the ground. .  but promise to pick it up after the season. .  is that OK ?  

Using a compound is legal.  Littering is not.

There are a lot of ways to mark a trail that are less obtrusive and just as easy to follow.

If I put up these "trails" am I in a large sense alerting people that I have claimed a stand and to stay away ?

Food for thought

ChuckC
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: Andy Cooper on July 16, 2010, 12:02:00 PM
Obtrusive...just learned a new word!  

I get riled when I see trails into wilderness areas. The White Mountain wilderness area in the Lincoln Nat'l Forest in NM has several places where the 4 wheelers just went around the boundary signs.  :mad:
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: jhg on July 16, 2010, 06:49:00 PM
Well, to round out and close this thread I spoke to the district office today and they are on it. Have had trouble before in this area and will contact me if they need addition info regarding location. They seemed to know about where it was already.

Lets not forget that in areas like this the rules are clear regarding any alterations, flagging etc. so its an issue of whether one can hunt there safely within those rules or not. Ethically they should choose an area that accomodates their woods skill and physical abilities. In my experience most hunters are very good about keeping wilderness areas as they found them.
I am taking my bow scouting this time (saturday) and stumping.


Joshua
Title: Re: Its a shame- and it was one of us...(sort of)
Post by: OkKeith on July 16, 2010, 07:32:00 PM
Joshua,

Glad to hear that the situation is working out. Have a good time whacking those stumps!

OkKeith