I was talking to a wheelie guy I know who has the coolest, newest, fastest mechanical arrow launching device he could find. He mentioned something about being able to shoot a deer or even an elk straight from behind (through the poop shoot), pass clean through, and get an efficiently killed animal.
This got me thinking... Would any of you figure that'd be a good bet for hunting (let's keep it to deer and elk for the sake of this argument)? Also made me wonder, since I'm still really new to all this, what about straight on shots. Would you just aim into the chest and is that an ethical shot? What about a bedded animal? Would you give it a shot or wait until it stood up? My first inclination is, probably not the best idea-poor angle and/or limited path to vitals. Would a broadside bedded animal be an exception or would the shoulder pretty well cover it all up?
Looking forward to your thoughts and experiences.
Jeremy
Next time you see him, ask him if him how much gutting he's actually done of animals and how much tolerance he has for eating fecal matter. This sounds like he's spinning a whopper.
i agree with tsalagi it sounds like crap to me to :biglaugh:
You need to ask him where he buys his BS Grenades. That is a CRAZY thing to tell someone.
That is so ridiculous. He had to have been bs-ing. The hole in through the pelvis is so small, and then to penetrate several feet. It doesn't even seem like many compound guys are getting passthroughs anymore with their 5 gpp arrows on broadside shots.
I have heard the same thing before from a couple of compound shooters. It seems that some people who are trying to sell fast bows are stretching the truth to sell them. His statement shows his complete ignorance of an animals anatomy and the abilities of archery equipment in general. I find it best to leave people that foolish to their dilusions
With any bow a straight on or bedded shot is a very low percentage shot. I know a couple of guys who have taken straight on shots at elk. All of them were at less than 5 yards. One fell 30 yards away. I got a phone call and we tracked the other one for hours and bumped it twice. We never did recover that elk.
shot at a deer extreme quarter away,as soon as I released deer turned straight away arrow went right up the poop shoot,45 yards with a 70 pound compound,325 grain arrow 2 blade rage,deer ran 70 yard death run and fell over,under 15 sec. death,did not pass all the way thru but large blood trail,lots of arteries in the rear end of deer,not something I would do on purpose but very quick kill,frontal shot saw elk taken with longbow at 10 yards arrow went right to feathers,elk down very fast,will they work yes but small target and large margin for error.
I"d like part of your action. Unless he has a 90# bow & 1000gr arrows it ain't gonna happen.
I hate the thought of it because there is a lot to injure- but in fairness, I think a shot in the rear end can be absolutely deadly. There are major arteries on either side of the "shoot." If you hit the shoot you have a dead deer for sure. If you shoot low- there is major blood flow in the "organ" that will take an animal out in seconds.
We saw a young guy last year shoot his first deer ever. Hard quarter and it turned as he released the arrow. It hit next to the "shoot" but high. That arrow penetrated with the head sticking out up through the armpit. The deer did not make it 50 yds.
I would never take the shot- too much margin for error.
Dan in KS
For the original poster. Never take any hard angling shots or poop shoot shots. They are an unethical low percentage shot for any archery gear. The animals you hunt deserve your respect and a clean death. If you don't kill an animal with that type of shot it will either be run to ground and eaten alive by coyotes, or slowly die of blood poisoning which is far worse.
Only inexperienced or foolish experienced hunters would knowingly take that type of shot. You destroy / contaminate a lot of meat and potentially leave the animal to die a horrible death.
I shot several deer head on years ago w/compound. What I noticed is from a treestand I hit the spine every time dropping them in their tracks. From the ground I shot 2 they were 110lbs does and the arrow came out their rear end. They only went about 30 yards or so. I don't think it is the best shot to take so I stay away from it now. Most of the time I have found if I wait I will get the shot I want.LCH
QuoteOriginally posted by Horner:
You need to ask him where he buys his BS Grenades. That is a CRAZY thing to tell someone.
not only is this funny it is also true :smileystooges:
Thanks for the responses guys, and thanks Ragnarok-pretty well reinforced what I was already thinking. Interesting thing that even the ones posting successful kills with straight on/away or severe angles say they wouldn't do it again or intentionally (in the cases of the animals turning at release).
I think this would be the part where I'm supposed to learn from those wiser and more experienced.... :archer2:
Thanks again, all
Jeremy
I've seen several deer killed quickly with hindquarter shots. In an old hunting magazine years ago, Fred Bear recommended the hindquarter shot as a quick kill, with the deer standing straight away. The hindquarter is full of big blood vessels. In one case, I saw a button buck killed by an arrow that didn't even penetrate the animal. The broadhead cut enough blood vessels on a grazing shot to put the deer down in sight.
I don't shoot them that way deliberately, but I've come to expect a quick recovery if they're hit there unintentionally.
I would like to apologize in advance, but when I heard about the butt shot the first time it was euphemistically called a "Texas Heart Shot". I can't imagine taking a shot like this on anything that I didn't just plain hate. Seems your ruin a lot of meat and geez, what a painful way to die. I would feel bad if I accidentally made a bad gut shot.
Years ago Dan Quillian decided to combat the supposition that getting shot with an arrow is painful. He interviewed several people who had been shot with broadheads by accident, and without exception it was painless, including one poor guy who was shot in the butt. He felt the arrow hit him, but didn't know what it was and didn't feel it after the impact. He almost died, but there was no "suffering" involved.
There are many worse ways to go than a sharp broadhead.
I would guess the compound shooter was remarking about the increditable power his new bow can enforce.The newest generation of compounds are nothing short of remarkable and w/ a well tuned and good arro broadhead set up,I can see some of these bows easily acomplishing the feat.
As for head-on shots?
I would be more apted to lean towards the rump shot for reasons stated before.
Really - did he call it the "poop-shoot shot" - I guess I never really will, hear it all. Thanks for the humor.
My guess is he is someone fairly new to killing animals.I used to think lots of things about killing things untill I had shot a few dozen of them with arrows. ;) Give him time,he will learn.
QuoteOriginally posted by rraming:
Really - did he call it the "poop-shoot shot" - I guess I never really will, hear it all. Thanks for the humor.
I've always heard it called "shoot'n em in the brown eye"
Dave
Lots of folks have done lots of things that at the time worked, that don't mean they were the right or smart thing to do. The Texas heart shot has been talked about for a long time and I still do not understand why you would take that shot. I think it's part of that "I gotta get one mind set".
I have heard the rear shot being called the "Texas Heart Shot". I could never see myself taking it though.
Noone has awnsered your question about quartering towards! There is a small 2.5-3 inch hole between the front shoulder and that big bone in the front. And that is about it! I would never take that shot, but I am just givin you the facts.
I had a deer jump the string that ended up with a bad shot almost like a poop shoot shot. He was slightly quatered and grazing. There was no sign that he was alert or jumpy, but when I shot, he jumped, and I ended up hitting about middle of the ham just under the spine. That guy did not make it anywhere. He fell almost instantly. I had hit the big artery that runs under the spine. There was a blood trail about 3' wide. It worked, but in no way would i recommend it. Just like the straight on or straight away shot, they will sometimes work, but why not wait a minute and take a good clean shot?
Accidents happen, but why make a bad shot on purpose? If you have to question a shot, don't take it. The guy bragging about a poop shoot shot sounds like he is just bragging about his equipment. Maybe, he has shot there, but I think with any patience at all a fellow could let a deer turn broadside or let it walk before taking a shot like that.
We had a guy on here not long ago claiming with his 'aiming system' he could guarantee a femoral artery shot.....now get this, he lives in TX.
I wonder 2 things.....has he ever shot at a TX whitetail?.....if he has, where do you actually aim if you want to hit the femoral artery on a TX Deer?
Years ago back while i was in college i had several thousand acrs i could hunt that was full of deer.
One morning i had a herd of deer under my tree and i took a shot at the one that was over my left shoulder. She was quartering away and when i shot i hit her right through her anus.
She ran 20yds and fell over dead and never made another move.
I have shot 2 deer like this after killing over 200 deer with a bow and both deer fell in sight.
I would never take this shot on purpose but both times it happened i had a short recovery.
There are so many things that can go wrong when shooting at live animals and thats just part of it. Heck i shot a nice 10 pointer in college that i thought was a double lunger at 10yds and we never did find that deer.
That was 20 years ago and for the life of me i still can't believe we lost such a great buck.
Neither of those shots should be taken. Things can go wrong on broadside 20 yard shots, i could never take a lower percentage shot like either of those. That said i bet a modern compound could definitely shoot legnthwise thru a deer if the hole in the pelvic bone was centered. Ted Nugent wrote about doing that exact thing 15+ years ago in "blood trails". Ted said it was a sure killer as long as you could center the brown eye. I personally think its just stupid. If your off an inch and hit pelvic bone penetration will be stopped cold and now you've more than likely got a deer running around with an arrow sticking out of its A$#. Some may say Ted has done alot for hunters and sportsman........ maybe, but its my opinion that thats book sure hasnt done anything good for us.
I have hit three deer in the ham and all were recovered. I have also read that the percentage for recovering ham hit deer is the same as for chest hit deer - 70%. I have never aimed for the back end of a deer, all my experience is with accidental hits there. I would never take a frontal shot but may take a back end shot someday on purpose. I make each call as it comes up, so far only broadside and quartering away shots taken but I can only guess at the future.
In my younger days I made a shot on a very samll doe facing me... not a shot I'll ever take again. I know I killed the deer but I never recovered it I am ashamed to say.
I watched as the arrow flew true to it's mark into the lower portion of the white throat patch. The arrow totally penetrated the deer and she ran off leaving not one speck of blood. I searched every where I could for 3 days trying my best to recover a deer that was in my mind dead,
It was a stupid shot to take! It's wasn't only stupid for me but would be the same for anyone else.
I have learned how to make good decisions sometimes the hard way.. by making bad ones.
I hate it that it cost a deer its life to find it out.
That happened over 30 years ago and I remember it as if it were yesterday when I'm making arrow placement choices.
My true confessions!!!
God bless,Mudd
I do believe he's messing with you. You certainly could kill an animal that way, but I sure wouldn't. A straight on shot I wouldn't do either. You could aim for the neck I suppose, but if you miss there would be a lot of blood and no animal.
Deer & Deer Hunting Magazine did a survey some years back, interviewing successful bowhunters about shot angles. Their study showed that the same number of deer were hit and recovered that were quartering toward the hunter as quartering away. Quartering toward, broadside, and quartering away were all equally good, based on their data.
Sometimes things don't come out the way logic or personal experience suggests they will.
I live in Texas but would never take that shot(Texas Heart Shot). Actually passed on the 2nd. best buck I've ever seen with a bow in my hand that only presented me with a walking away shot at 10 yards. No way I could shoot an animal intentionally like that.Just not right. With that said, a good friend killed a deer(10 point)with his longbow a few years back with a deflected arrow. Severed the femoral artery and the deer bled out within minutes. Even though he killed the deer, he was not a happy hunter. Like Terry said "How do you aim for the femoral artery"? I'm not that good of a shot.
Lot's of good, consistent advice in this thread. I have intentionally, on one occassion shot a deer front on from an elevated stand. It was a 7-yard shot that I should have passed on (deer field dressed on state scales 265 pounds) but I got by with it. I feared the deer would wind me if I let him pass. I wouldn't do it again - too little margin for error. I mis-hit a small deer in Missour many years ago. I didn't even realized where I hit the deer (perfect broadside shot) until I recovered it in about 40 yards (very short trail). I had shot the deer squarely in the hind quarter (duh?). I was shocked 1). That I had missed so badly 2). That the deer was as dead as a heart shot so quickly. It was very cold that December day and I was bundled up more than usual -- you and I both know the probable cause for my bad miss.
I always give the same advice. Even if you take only ethical broadside, or sligthly quartering away shots, if you hunt long enough, eventually one of these perfectly ethical shots will go bad and result in a very long or no recovery. If you take risky shots (frontal,rear,running, quartering towards, etc.)'eventually' will come sooner and more often. I prefer not to feed the decomposers.
Another thing. One of my pet peeves (I find at 56 years of age my list of peeves is getting too long)is the "famuous" hunter/author that feels it necessary to "shake things up abit" and write controversial material. I won't name the fellow but he loves to write about long shots, odd shot angles, etc. I guess guys like these have to come up with different angles (no pun intended) to have an article they can sell.
By the way, regarding the deer lying down. I have never had an opportunity to shoot a deer lying down. It would seem to me that the shoulder and leg bones would be bunched up in front of the lung and heart area and make this a poor shot. I'd wait for the deer to stand before taking the shot. I wouldn't alert the deer to get it to stand though unless I could do so in an non-alarming way. I don't like shooting alert deer either -- enventually is waiting to rear its ugly head.
Sorry guys, another thing. "Wheeline" guys haven't cornered the market on ill-advised ideas. I'll never forget, in 1969 a veteran archer (I was 16) came in to camp with no arrows. When asked where they were he reported having shot all his arrows from a tree stand at at deer across a draw more than 90 yards away. This fellow wasn't a 90-yard shot. His excuse was that nothing dies unless arrows were in the air. Even at 16 I knew to tune this fellow out from that point forward when it came to bowhunting advice!
Interviewing people about events that happened in the past (especially hunters and fishermen) will get you the most inaccurate data you can possibly aquire. I know why hunting magazines and other sources do it, but people remember wrong, they enhance a good story, they lie. That doesn't mean you shouldn't ask, just understand the data will be skewed.
A perfect "poop shoot" will drop the animal quick and ruin no meat. Don't gut, go gutless and you are good to go.
Close shots a hard quartering to is the same as a quartering away shot, except you get guts after cutting the major organs we are trying to destroy, however that is a very close shot with zero margin for error. Quartering to put in in front of the near side leg and that is a dead critter.
Most shy away from quartering to shots because most folks are accustomed to aiming behind the near leg, that is backwards for a quartering to shot. Just like on a quartering away shot you aim for the armpit of the offside leg. I have killed two pigs from the ground with hard quartering to shots out of two shots attempted, both collapsed where they were hit. But those were lucky scenarios where I was well hidden and at full draw when the pigs came over a rise and within handshake distance. I have probably passed on 50+ shots that didn't "feel right".
Coming straight in is almost an impossibly opportunity as the animal must have its head very high to tuck it under the chin, you must be laying on your back, or the critter coming over a rise.
If you have 100 encounters with animals within 10yards, maybe one will give a good clean opportunity for a frontal shot or poop shot, and even then should only be considered, let alone taken if you are beyond confident or your shot.
For most, including me 99% of the time, quartering away and broadside are the only shots to take...
Let me add that I am considering those types of shots as possibilities only rarely when on the ground level where the arrow's path is straight "stem to stern" thru the animal's body. From a stand or elevated position further complicates the impossibility of the shot.
QuoteOriginally posted by Zbearclaw:
A perfect "poop shoot" will drop the animal quick and ruin no meat. Don't gut, go gutless and you are good to go.
I have heard and read that bursting the bladder and spilling urine on the meat will "taint" the flavor of the meat. I am not sure what you mean by go gutless, but I am fairly new to all this.
You do not open the gut cavity, you basically skin the deer from the spine and remove all the meat without opening the gut.
Then when finished you can pull the tenderloins after all other meat is removed. A poop shoot shot, in my humble opinion, is no more a risk to meat damage than a quartering away shot that also goes through the back of the gut on the way to the heart/lungs.
just as with every thing in this world...if it sounds fishy, it usually smells fishy too.....don't do it......
I would not shoot an elk straight on. I have skinned a few and there is only a small hole to go through below the neck. If you miss that the rib cage slants back so you would have to go through several ribs to hit the vitals. Very poor choice for a shot angle. Gary
My buddy shot an elk in the chest from the front 6 years ago. He watched the arrow completely disappear, left it for 4 hours and never did find that elk. If you see him don't ask him about it. He's still a little sensitive about it. He'll never do it again.
Deer yes you could. I have seen a deer that was shot this way. The deer spun as the arrow was released and the arrow went in and traveled along the spin. The broad head came out looking like it had been serated (sp). It wasted very little meat, you don't eat where the arrow went in and it came out the front chest just off center so just a little rib meat. The deer dropped right in its tracks.
I still would not shoot any animal this way.
Dave
This one might go on the list of "sure, you could... but why would you?".
Sounds like a bulls eye shot to me! I mean Bull Crap LOL wouldn't do it for anything.
Personally, I would pass up either shot due to size of the target. I wouldn't even try those shots with a rifle. I have too much respect for the animals for what I feel is a risky shot placement.
Stan
Although I am not advocating it, and would never try it with my longbow, a straight on shot is very deadly if the shot is good.
My father use to be a dang good shot with a compound and shot 80+ pounds with heavy aluminums and muzzy broadheads. He had a buck approach facing him and then the buck stopped and looked backward towards the way it came leaving the neck/chest wide open. My father was confident in his shooting ability and rightfully so. He drew, shot, and put the arrow right in the middle of the chest. That arrow passed through the deer and exited just infront of the left ham. He hit lungs, heart, liver, stomach, and intestines. The buck fell within sight, was gutted quickly and no meat was lost.
So it can be done and is effective, but you better be a good shot to attempt it.
Can we spell FOS, boys and girls? Yes, I thought we could.
I have learned that keeping the shots to those that would fall into the "text book" category have the highest rate of success. Why do anything else?
Good point twostrings.
Why cause yourself grief.
In passing up a low percentage shot, the WORST thing that can happen is you walk away with a close encounter, a memory, and probably a lesson in better bowhunting.
Big difference in what you CAN do versus what you SHOULD do.
"In passing up a low percentage shot, the WORST thing that can happen is you walk away with a close encounter, a memory, and probably a lesson in better bowhunting."
I couldn't say it any better....
Guys that make statements like that are only demonstrating their lack of experience and/or success.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sam McMichael:
Can we spell FOS, boys and girls? Yes, I thought we could.
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Thanks everybody-some great advice and pretty fun to read, too :) .
Jeremy