As some of you know, my son Cade has started bowfishing with me this summer...
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=090056#000000
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=090410#000000
He's having a ball, and is shooting pretty well, hitting several fish already. The problem is he's shooting very marginal equipment and is having a hard time getting the arrow far enough into a fish to get the barbs to hold.
So I'm looking ideas to optimize penetration.
The Muzzy heads we use are great heads, but even with a brand new "Trocar Tip", the barb hasn't made it in yet.
I've since found another old, different kind of bowfishing tip that may work better with some modification.
I've also been working on a couple ideas that I've had.
Here's one of them...
Driveway marker from Home Depo...on that I tapered the nock end and glued a nock and installed a slide stopper....
• (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/curt/P1070860fishpnt.JPG)
Then I took a screw-in wood adapter and glued and pinned it in place(11/32 taper didn't fit real well on the 5/16 arrow, but I got it work). Then mounted an old Bear razorhead on a 100 gr. steel adapter. Everything mounted spins about perfect...
• (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/curt/P1070857fishpnt.JPG)
• (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/curt/P1070858fishpnt.JPG)
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Not a perfect solution, but it should penetrate way better. My hope is that if he does get this thru a fish, the slit won't line up(hopefully) with the barbed ends and he might land his fish.
With the screw-in adapter, just unscrew the point to take the fish off, the screw back on.
My buddy "Glenbo" was been busy in shop as well with some arrows, bh's, and a welder :thumbsup:
All ideas,input and experiences are appreciated guys...we need help!
in ny is it legal to bowfish with a four barb tip? i'm wondering if you add a carp tip barb to that setup if that would help. another thing i was kinda thinking about was that if he was shooting a 3ft arrow like you normally do, what if cut his arrow down he might get more speed out of it. don't know if that would work but its just a thought.
Curt, one thing I've found that makes a difference is how far the point has to get in before the barbs hold. Thats one reason I like the Muzzy Shureshot point. It has the shortest point to barb distance. Something to consider. That broadhead modification looks great, but it looks more likely to cause an accident on a slippery/chaotic boat deck, especially with a little guy around.
Curt, Could you possibly put the Muzzy point to a grinder,and make a flat "spear" point as opposed to the "diamond" tip???
Just a thought..... Good Luck!!!!!
Nice mod. on that setup. I'm curious why the driveway marker? What about grinding the muzzy point and shortening the barbs some. I think you're on the right track with the cut on contact idea though. Skippy
That's exactly what I used for my boy's bowfishing arrows. The only real difference is that I made the barbs a little more "pointy"... that way they snag on stuff and won't come out very easy at all.
He'll get in past the barbs with that set up.
:thumbsup:
I had the same problem with my son when he was small. One problem I came across is when you modify a broadhead they come out of the carp as well as they go in. Steel force has a head that looks something like a four blade criscrossed broadhead that might work with lower poundage.I don't know how these heads hold up to a rocky bottom.
RB
Curt, my girls have beem bowfishing with me alot this year, they are shooting a bear tigercat 35@28, they are only pulling it 23-24" so maybe 26#s, they are using a glass fish arrow cut to 25", with a modified talon tip [ kustom king ], I cut off half the barb [ barb lays flat against arrow ], and got the screw-in tip as sharp as I could. They have lost a few and missed alot, but both have landed fish this way, about 2-3" of penetration, fish have to be close and shallow, but worth a try. Todd
Great idea but, I have to agree with owlbait. Having that sharp of a head in a slippery boat is an accident waiting to happen.
Guru
I think Kustom King still has some of the fish points I like (talon).
They have a single heavy wire prong and it is loose so it folds back until it passes thru a fish . The prong is very long and will likely hold a whale, but I think cutting it back a bit , maybe even in half, would work even better for Cade. If nothing else, take a look at the design, I like it myself.
ChuckC
I use Muzzy Carp heads when I fish. I'm using a 45# bow and had problems last year holding fish. I took some pliers though, and shaped the barbs a little differently. I squeezed them closer to the shaft, and then flared the ends just a bit until the point looked similar to an innerloc point. Now I get pass throughs to the other side all the time.
One thing too, I use Muzzy's 6 sided carp tips instead of the Trocar things.
Owl, Yes we'd surely have to be extra careful with that point.
"distance from point to barb"....that's exactly why I went to Gander MT. saturday before we left to find the shortest possible. Muzzy was the best for that.
Chuck, I've been doing that as well with some other points I have. Havn't tried the Muzzy tip yet though.
I'll post some pix of what I've messed with so far...
Skippy, I didn't have anymore fish arrows that didn't already have pinned points that I wanted to take apart. The driveway markers make perfect fish arrows.
Thanx Charlie, When you said something about mod'd bh's on the thread a light bulb went off.
I'll sharpen the back to a point...
RB, I saw that Steelforce head in 3 Rivers yesterday. Looks great,but wonder about the 4 blades. Might hinder the penetration, but I was thinking about ordering one to try.Yeah, I know on a rocky bottom, it would get tore up quick. This would probably only used in a situation like we were the other night....mostly a muddy bottom.
Todd, That's exactly the advice experience I need!
I've been hesitant to cut his arrows short figuring that the weight might help. But I guess there's a trade off between a little extra speed.
Arrow should be more than heavy enough at 25", and it would certainly be easier for him to handle at the shorter length...I'll try it.
I have another Bear razorhead that I haven't touched yet.
Chuck, I'm gonna go check out those Talon heads right now.....
Ok, just to thinking about the "safety" of the sharpened head.....
How about if I only left the first 1/2" or so sharp, than ground down the edge behind the leading sharp edge so it's just a bit wider, say 3/4". Basically making the blade behind into barbs.
The leading edge should cut just enough for the prongs to pop right thru.
Gotta try it and see what I come up with....
Thanks guy, keep the ideas coming...he's/we're determined to land a fish!
I was gonna suggest the shortened arrows too! What about the Mzzy's trocar Gar point? I think it is slimmer and made for better penetration on the tuff scales on gar. Might help just a bit. Good luck!
when using Muzzy quick release style heads it is very important to squeeze the barb tight w/ the head for better penetration. The barbs get their holding power when then slip sideways and not from the ends of the barbs. Helps w/ tare-outs as well.
What if you bend the back of the blades a bit so it will cause the head to rotate as it goes through. May help prevent it pulling ou t the same hole.
You know, we look to the solids for weight, which is good for deep water penetration, but for shallow stuff, it is not nearly as needed.
As you said Guru, with lite bows there is a trade off. You need to have an arrow that can be launched.
Have you got any old, short heavy gauge carbon or glass shafts around that you can make into a servicable arrow for his "stalking". It appears that is the norm for your area. . make some that work for that purpose so he can win a few. No they are not as sturdy, but then again, maybe they do not need to be.
This is likely a great idea for a niche entrepreneur to develop a solid 1/4 " shaft or a very sturdy but not solid 5/16 that is lighter and smaller. And also maybe a slightly smaller head. . just for the kids. Rememeber, that head is not gonna need to hold up to an 80 pound bow jamming it against the rocks, only a 20 - 35 pounder. That is a TON diffrerent.
I bet a lot of folks would purchase a decent smaller arrow so their kids can join them and still have a great time.
Guru.. Using that Talon head. . can you grind those points a but to make them more stream lined. Also. The Talon USED to be made with a longer narrow point that is not a replaceable screw tip. I think it would be much better to tinker with. See if Kustom king still has any of those.
ChuckC
Guru
An example from the net. kitebuilder.com has shafts of solid or tubular fiberglass or graphite in various diameters including all around 1/4" size. You can purchase them at 24", 48" or 96", They are not very expensive. Don't know about shipping. I wonder how an old Beeman hunter outsert adapter on the end of one of them and a Beeman outsert nock on the other end would fare. Heck the outsert nock, if a heavy version (I may have a few I could send you ) could itself act as the rear piece for the slide tie system. You may have to make a slider. How tough is it to make a half dozen of those if you have access to a drill press ? Then take a 175 grain or more screw in field point and doctor it up to fill the bill. Maybe grind the sides a bit to make it penetrate better (just two sides) and drill a small hole thru it near its base, add a piece of very stiff wire in a manner as similar to the Talon as you can figure. He may have a useable arrow / system there for wade fishing at least. Now I am gonna go try to make one.
Try it
ChuckC
Curt, I ran into the same problem with Joe when he first started, he would not get the penetration. All we had were scales and pullouts, that homemade point will work but time will be your best bet, when Cade gets some more size he will pull more pounds then the carp better look out.
Curt, send me your address I've got a couple of Talons already cut and screw-in point sharpened, I'd be happy to send one to you guy's to try out. Todd
Owl, the "trocar" gar point if what he used the other night, Came up with scales against the beginning of the barb 4 times.
Lowebow, Thanx for the tip! Makes sense....
Jason, My Dad said the same thing last night when I ran the BH idea by him. I wonder if it would cut down on the penetration though....
Chuck, I actually bough two fiberglass shafted driveway markers yesterday at HD. They are the kind with the round red reflectors on top. I thought they'd be great for what I need but have to come up with a way to get point system for the front, and a slide system. Should come out of the bow with some steam, thin dia. and solid shaft should penetrate very well.
Outsert idea should work for a screw-in point system, but I wouldn't even know where to get something like that these days. I could taper the back end and use 1/4" glue-on nocks.
1/4' slide would take some figuring....
Let me know how it comes out Chuck...
Yeah Jim, I know he needs to be a bit bigger/stronger....but there's no holding him back now, so I need to figure something out. He's shooting well enough that he deserves to land a few...
Thanx Todd!
Guru,
What about a single "flipper" style barb. We use it in Hawaii for diving. You could mount it near the tip. It lays flat for better penetration and once it opens, it holds really well.
Ryan
I agree with ChuckC, try the talon point. I didn't know the name of it, but it's the one he described. Another thing Guru, I read somewhere on a bowfishing site that those driveway markers are very brittle, not the same as a fiberglass arrow. Tell Cade not to worry, we've all reeled our arrows in with a scale stuck to the tip.
Curt,
You might wanna look into this: http://www.amsbowfishing.com/product_info.php?products_id=343
It appears as though AMS is making a "Mini Arrow" which is 26" long and comes with a special point and is lighter in weight for slower speed kids' bows. I've been looking for something like this as well, but I haven't tried one yet.
QuoteYeah Jim, I know he needs to be a bit bigger/stronger....but there's no holding him back now, so I need to figure something out. He's shooting well enough that he deserves to land a few...
I hear ya Curt, when he does it will be awesome :thumbsup:
Good luck Curt,
I understand your pain watching cade hit but not recover. I was thinking along the lines of Jason by twisting the BH blades a bit to hopefully not allow the BH to come easily back out the same slit.
I have taken some tips that are on the market to the grinder to get them sharp after some pass through shots on the Wall kill. After a while I was shooting mushroomed tips. They usually sharpen up nice.
Obviously safety will be an issue but i would look at putting small barbs on that BH if you still plan on using it. I would use the style mentioned earlier about the barb being bent in and flaring out at the tips.
Good Luck Cade with your next shot!! :thumbsup:
Curt,This might sound a little crude. but back when we were kids used to take a finish nail drill a hole just behind field tip and glue it in.Shape it with pliers,Landed a lot of carp with this set-up.Plus its cheap and those rocks are tuff on arrows...ED
Curt, Now that Ed mentioned something, I remember using nails after the cheap barbs broke off when I was a kid. I cannot remember the stats, but I do recall it working most of the time. Of course we still had pull offs but I do now as well so whats the difference?
Here are some examples of my set-up. Very simple and effective.
In Australia, we have some strict rules in relation to bow fishing. All of the fish taken here have been done taking these rules into consideration.
The arrow I use, (the only one!) is an Osprey twins barb with 3 inch rubber flights. The flights do help in stabilizing the arrow out of the longbow. not such a problem I am led to believe with a compound.
(http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=19719&id=116644151688145#!/photo.php?pid=313698&id=116644151688145)
sorry dont quite know how to do the photos! If you click in the icon and follow the link you will get to the photo I want to show.
Cheers
This what the head looks like now. Sharpened back edge to a point, took down the blade width by grinding down the sharp edge, just leaving a 1/2" leading edge to cut, and flipped about 3/8" of the back end of the barbs...
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I've also cut his arrow down to 25", much better for him to handle...
Whatta ya think?
Not sure how the tack weld(or whatever it is Bear used to hold the front of the blade)will hold up. Definitely not for rocky bottoms either.
Looks like he 's gonna get a chance Friday night to try it out.
This is another old fishing head I had laying around. Nice small, sharp point. I filed down two sides to make it a little slimmer. But the shoulder of the bards is still pretty substantial. That seems to be what's hanging up on the scales
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Curt
How about the Steel Force Carp Fish Tip it looks like it would get the job done. Blake
Last year I commented that someone needs to come up with bowfishing arrows spined for different draw weights. I didn't get many positive responses, in fact I got a few negatives, LOL!
This thread is one of the reasons why I would like to see it happen.. I went/going through the same thing with my kids and think the penetration would improve greatly if the arrow matched the bow.
Looks like AMS is thinking the same thing and coming out with their version. I opted to take 2018's and mount all the stuff on it like a fiberglass arrow for my set-up and use a 45/60 carbon done the same way for my daughter.
You will be amazed how much better the arrow flies when it is matched to your bow. ;) The only thing I don't like about my modified arrows is that they aren't as durable as solid fiberglass.
BTW I should get a patent or some capital to get some "proper" fishing arrows produced before some other company runs with it. :goldtooth:
Nice looking Curt. I think that will do the trick for sure. I'm wondering how that fish point would work if you cut into the tip and placed a sharpened edge in there as wide as the shoulder of the barbs? Kinda like the front portion of your bear head just epoxied into the tip.
Just bought some cutting wheels this morning for my Dremmel to do just that....pix later...
Curt, let's try the Muzzy reel with the lighter 150# Spectra line. I know the AIMS retriever has very little drag but the cord gets wet and is pretty heavy. Maybe the light line will reduce drag and could increase speed/penetration. Does his bow have a stabilizer screw in? If not, we can do it like I do for alligators. I'll hold the reel while he shoots.
Anyway you look at, we ain't coming in on Friday until that boy boats a fish. We may have to launch Cade at the fish, but we're getting him a fish. :eek:
good luck on Friday. I hope Cade gets to land one of those fish. I can see the endless smile on his face already.
just be very careful when unscrewing a sharpened head with a fish flopping around on the other end of the arrow. that would be my concern with that type of head.
Terry, I'm just afraid he might not press the button on a spincaster.
As far as the safety thing...I'll be helping land anything he shoots, and will handle it next to the boat for sure.
Bet this one will work...
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A little crude, and not sure how long it will hold up(it's JB Welded in there), but I think it will cut just enough to allow the barbs to get in.
That aught ta do the trick. Only one way to find out. Good luck! :pray:
Curt, Looks as if you got it figured out.
Looks good Curt.I think either of the two should do the job.
Curt, My guess is your last prototype will be the best.I am just guessing,but I will bet the cut down broadhead will want to plane when it hits the water. :dunno: GOOD LUCK to you and Cade.
Bill
Thats the ticket Curt. Exactly what I had in mind.
Curt, where did you get that made? We might want a couple for Bill Langer's boy for alligators?
Also, bring along the forms we were talking about.
Looks like it will work :thumbsup:
Terry, That was made in the good ol' USA....in my shop, by me :thumbsup:
Can't wait to see the coming pics! I tell you what Curt...it's impressive to see the amount of work and effort you put out each outing to ensure Cade has the best time possible.
Good for you Man, good for you. :clapper:
Curt I 2nd the Muzzy spincast reel with 150# line, that is what I use and I know I get better penetration on deeper, bigger fish with that lighter line. I always bend my barbs in close to the body just leave them wide enough to pivot around the shaft and they do penetrate much better and leave a smaller hole as well.
Those little black river pts are small,but the barbs are very thin and will break very easily and do not hold fish well at all, we use to sell them as our cheapest bowfishing arrow, but they just broke too easily to continue to offer them.
I just wish I could post some pics of the original Muzzy fish head prior to the wire barb version, you would be suprised what it looks like!!!
How'd you guys make out lastnight?? Curious minds want to know.