what's is a good speed for a selfbow at 10gr/# for something in the 55#-65# range? i know there's alot of variables but i'm just wondering what the low and high end speeds would be in terms of judging the bows efficiency. whats fast and whats not worth hunting with?
A bow pulling 50# @ 28", shooting a 10GPP arrow, should be able to launch an arrow at a speed of ATLEAST 145fps, IMO. And that may even be in the low end, depending on the design.
Lots of variables-just like lam bows some selfbows can be quite fast-others perhaps not so much. To date I have made one sinew backed osage bow with recurved tips that is right up there with many laminated FG bows-but there have been lots of shavings along the way.
Elsewhere on the net you can find 'walk the talk' where some self bowyers are making bows that out shoot todays top lam bows.
i aim for anything past 140 fps ...
having said that I'm still in the " i have no idea what I'm doing stage " but I'm thinking in an "overbuilt " bow thats what I'll keep aiming for ...
If you are looking for speed self bows are not the way to go, they are short range killing weapons and out to 20 yards will get the job done. The above speeds are about right.
I'm not big on speed either for the selfbows that I make. I have seen a selfbow made by Brad Merkel (littletree) shoot through a chron at 170fps. The bow was 50# @ 27 (his draw) and the arrow weighed 525g. It was amazing.
100fps + bow weight w/10gpp
GENERAL RULE OF THUMB!
Mine shoot so fast that most chrono's cant register the speed...or is it the opposite, they dont register that slow. Anyway with selfbow dont get caught up in that crap. They kill like any other bow and arrow set up thats all that is important. At least to me. Hunt close and enjoy.
Two Tracks has the rule of thumb I've heard.
I shot one of my selfbows through a chrono once and was so disappointed in the numbers I never did it again. Now I can tell on the first shot whether it is a shooter or a good shooter. Both will kill any animal in North America with proper arrows and arrow placement so what difference does the speed make. If you practice enough with your selfbow so you know the trajectory you can put the arrow where it needs to go...even at sub sonic speed!
There is a subtle difference between a good and a WOW self bow. A good self bow will come close to the rule of thumb that 2track listed. A really good self bow will surprise you with performance. "Dry wood expertly tillered." Sounds easy but its not.
A buddy of mine who happens to hang out here brought some self bows down to the Calgary Archery center a while ago. I saw a couple of them shoot over 170fps. Draw weight was in the mid 50's and his arms are a little long so about a 29 or 30 inch draw. I was blown away!
I find a self bow to be QUIET.
That is what makes them so good and the fact they are very "simple"
As Shaun stated above, skilled people make some bows that perform. Brad Merkel is one of the best I know personally.
Sound or lack of is what I like about them.
Never seen what I would call a fast one if comparing to a good glass bow however.Never seen one shot through a crony yet that would break 160 unless they were shooting arrows under 10gns from it.Most were in the 140 to 155 range for the best ones.Of course these were bows used to shoot 3d and hunt with so had a number of arrows through them.They were not the one or two arrow flight bows you hear guys talk about being so fast. :)
thats one of the things that concerns me about selfbows is the change/stringfollow and the increased likelyness that it will break, i draw 30.8 inches and like to hold for several seconds.
this is not to good for self bows so ive been told. :campfire:
eric-thor make the bow longer for your draw and dont worry. Howard Hill I believe said something to fact that a little string follow is a good thing. Makes a bow a pleasure to shoot (me not Howard). Too much not good a little no big worry. Less effienct yes but again it is a selfbow and it has done its job since the pleiseten (? spelling). Hunt close and enjoy.
My old favorite, which I made in '95 and I shoot sparingly, but every year, is a 59# osage and shoots a 515 gr. arrow at 150 something feet per second. A sharp two blade at 10 yards is amazing. I'll shoot a deer or two every year to unwind after I've done my damage with my recurve.
thanks skinner but ill stick to my one bow philosophy andthats all i need for now. if i get on "servivor" the tv show i will be fashioning a bow and arrows asap . my tribe will not starve. i will servive.
eric-thor,
No offense intended, but if you are measuring draw length out to tenths of an inch, perhaps selfbows aren't for you :)
Some tricked out rifle loads can shoot upwards of 6000 fps. Why on earth would anyone want to shoot a compound bow at maybe 300 fps? Compound bows shoot over 300 fps, why on earth would anyone want to shoot a trad bow that shoots only 170? Glass bows top out at over 200 fps, why on earth would anyone want to shoot a selfbow at 150 fps?
It's all good. Shoot what makes ya happy and gives you confidence. Pyramids that took decades and longer to build stand longer than today's houses built in less than a month.
Speed and Selfbows shouldn't be in the same sentence!
When the compound was created, it was for the ease of holding and shooting!
I enjoy selfbows for the part of building and shooting something of attachment to simplicity!
I have taken more animals with them, than any!
Speed, that was something folks took in the 70's and 80's for........!
i'm not speed crazy i was just curious to know what an average was so when i make one i'll know how it fares. thanks. can't wait to have a go at making one.
Ozy, can't wait to see the one you build! If like the points you knap, it will be a looker!
You will enjoy :bigsmyl:
lots of learning to do. i haven't tried to make one yet. i've got some wattle staves to have a go at. i'll get to them soon. i suppose you could say i've started my primitive journey the other way around, having started by learning how to make a primitive arrow. now i need to make a bow with sinew string. oh yeah and then go hunting.......
wow, this thread is too old!
ok, so in the last 6 years i've made a selfbow, rawhide strings, primitive quiver and bamboo arrows.
i've recently been tuning the arrows and they all ended up between 550-600gr.
i shot it through the chrono today and the 550gr arrow was averaging 146fps with my 26" draw, however i'm not entirely sure what the draw weight is yet. at a guess it's at about 50-55#. i'll try and measure it accurately tommorrow.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_4925.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/IMG_4925.jpg.html)
oh, the bow is brigalow, an acacia species.
Great job on that journey! Your short draw length is what nips a little speed from you. If you shot that same bow with the same draw weight at 28", you would pick up a lot of FPS. Maybe 10.
Looks nice. Any close up pictures of the bow....and accessories?
Nice Clint!
I have always seen an average of 150 fps on most selfbows. A high performance string material works great for these bows. Not just for speed!
But I know, not primitive.
A shark beside that bow, would be a cool pic!
selfbow speed is irrelevant,,, the number one thing I look for in my selfbows is finding the perfect flying arrow, sound I hate when selfbows make that clank sound (weak shaft, low brace, tiller favoring the opposite side)
I will be hunting with a 46# selfbow my guess its shooting 140-150 but it hits within 6-8" at 20yds, bare shafts a 45/50 woodie with 125gr point pretty dang good,,, it loves the cock feather in though for some reason.
honestly with a selfbow forget speed they will never be considered fast, hit where your looking with good arrow flight and be done with it.
Looks great Clint!
Good work!
I can't wait to see the pic of the first critter you take with it.
Bisch
I am a tool maker by trade . I have had to work to close tolerances for years .
In the past several years computers have taken away the craftsman from my trade .
I enjoy making walking sticks and canes . The only measurements are when I need to fit a rubber tip .
I also make knives , all freehand . I could make an awesome blade with the CNC equipment but it wouldn't have any character .
Where am I going with this ?......
Traditional Archery is supposed to be about getting off the moddern speed buss , high tech , steel your life away craziness .
Forget the calculators and just find what you like and relax and enjoy it .
If your bow shoots like a slow pitch softball but you can hit what you are aiming at , it's all good .
This life is to fast now , so just take time to smell the pine pitch .
Sorry , just venting , and just an old farts opinion . :campfire:
One of my favorite bows is an osage self bow that Pearl Drums built for me. I have never chronographed it but I know a fast bow and there are no flys sitting on the arrows coming off that string. It shoots as well as any bow I have ever owned and is a thing of great beauty in all respects. Chrono it? not happening/. I know it will do the job within any distance I will shoot an animal and that is all that matters performance wise. But , like I said, I know the difference in a fast bow and a slow bow. This one is fast.
God bless, Steve
i make the rawhide stings with a flemish loop one end and a bowyers hitch at the other.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_5157.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/IMG_5157.jpg.html)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_5160.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/IMG_5160.jpg.html)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF3445.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/DSCF3445.jpg.html)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF3443.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/DSCF3443.jpg.html)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/DSCF3444.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/DSCF3444.jpg.html)
the quiver is axis deer hide that i bark tanned and stitched with rawhide lacing.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_5172.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/IMG_5172.jpg.html)
Clint, your equipment is so camoed as to be invisible! Well done!
I love that quiver!
Nice looking bow too. Did you scale it yet?
I fully understand the anti speed thing and admire that mindset and view. But (there's always a but!), From the bowyer's point of view, the Chrony tells a story. It sets a bar to be bested not by others, but by himself. Before a chronograph became something within the reach of nearly anyone, bowyer's sought cast as their measure.
I have only one self bow (not built by me) and when I got it I couldn't wait to chronograph It. It's nominally 38# @28", but that depends on if it's strung and scaled immediately or shot for a bit first. In any case, it flung a 525 arrow at 137. My slowest bow, but still a favorite to shoot.
Love that handle. Looks a fine grade gunstock. That quiver is special too... and seems to disappear even when out in the open. Thanks for the pictures. This outfit evokes an appreciation for this primitive side of the sport. Good luck in the bush with it.
The wood looks like some older Osage! Very nice!
Quiver looks cool, too!
What is the black hair/fiber on the top limb? Horse hair?
The 1st one I made turned out 53@28 and shot a 500 grain cedar at 172.
Real nice bow. Selfies are a kick in the pants to shoot. A good self bow is stronger than most people think. My hickory stick is about 8 years old and still gets a 590-600grn arrow to 160fps. 58 at my draw. And I bet thousands of arrows through it. I once had to wack a coyote in the head with it . Hurry up and get something with that bow.
I never had the pleasure of shooting one but sure hope to. I watched a man shoot an Osage once and couldn't believe how it would spit an arra! I guess the most attractive attribute in a selfie is the quietness. One of these days I'll hunt with one. 172 wow!
When I first made and then hunted with my selfbow I thought shooting out to 20 -25 yds.All the deer ducked the string. Now I just set up 12 to 15 yds with good success.Bow speed doesn't register on the chrono which starts at 140.
At close range, the diff between a fast and slow selfbow, or any bow for that matter, is less than the reaction time (yours) to the result. And the quiet nature of selfbows, can lessen the quarry's reaction time as well. Lots can affect arrow speed. If you like how it shoots, then use it.
Never choreographed one of mine, but they seem to be fast enough to get the job done.
frank- that just a rough tillering string that is longer than needed so i tied a timber hitch. i've since made rawhide strings for it.
Clint, one of the biggest performance boosters for a selfbow is just a skinny FF string. Grab a couple FPS for doing almost nothing.
Your bow looks great, and the quiver? Awesome.
Anyway, I generally am looking for as close to 150FPS as I can get at 10gpp and my short <26" draw length. My experience is that my best selfbows shoot 10gpp at about the same speed my vintage glass recurve shoots 11gpp or so. Sinew backed recurves have matched the glass bow. Laminated wood bows have also come very very close.
I'm sure a high performance glass bow would blow them all away.
My first self bow was from the lilac bush, I was four, I killed a dove with it that was on the neighbors fence. The next one was a lemon wood with recurve sort a tips, so slow that I didn't dare to shoot it into a strong breeze. The next one, lightening hit the neighbors ash tree and stripped off a long chunk. A farmer that made bows out of osage fence posts came and explained that lightening fried ash makes a good bow wood. He made one for himself and for me a Hill style with a sinew backing, 38 pounds at 26". The local bunnies should have declared that day a day of morning, it was deadly. The fastest self wood bow that I ever shot was an old yew. Almost a flat limb, with a sinew backing. It had been in use since the 20s. It was on its fourth generation. They let me take a few shots with it. Fast, silent, stable, accurate, the bow had it all.