What is YOUR Preference for Your Traditional Bows? ALL Kinds!!
Just Out of Curiosity....Oh Yeah, i forgot, and Which String for Which Bow??
I always shoot flemish, just cause I like the look. I can't tell the difference shooting either though.
There's no option for 'Don't Care'
I trully don't care, one way or t'other. There's no difference I can see/feel/hear between endless or flemish. They both work for either longbow or recurve.
flemish.. Because it sounds Traditional
I shoot mainly flemish on all my longbows,but shoot an endless on my Harrison HSS.They are easy to make sitting and watching TV.I do like endless dacron on my older recurves.I do make all my strings including the endless strings.
Well they both have there pros and cons. I love my flemish strings for the simple fact that they are adjustable. But on the flip side sometimes when unstrung they can untwist, but that is a easily fixed problem, just use a string keeper or loop it over the bow.
Endless strings cannot really be adjusted, but that is something I like about them, they will basically always stay the same!
QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Shelton: Well they both have there pros and cons. I love my flemish strings for the simple fact that they are adjustable. But on the flip side sometimes when unstrung they can untwist, but that is a easily fixed problem, just use a string keeper or loop it over the bow.
Endless strings cannot really be adjusted, but that is something I like about them, they will basically always stay the same!
You can adjust an endless string just as easily as a flemish. You can twist them up & down in exactly the same way.
For me, I give a slight edge to flemish for adjustability and quietness. Endless are easier to make the same from one maker to the next, and easier to be consistently the same with for some folks.
Almost forgot--there's gobs of fables floating around about both--I've even seen where warranties would be voided if you chose one over the other. Go figure...
Flemish because that is what I can make. :) I also think they are stronger and since I shoot small strings that is a plus for me.I know they are quieter. :D
Black Swan used to reccomend endless strings in non stretch modern material. I use flemish on my Back Swans and they shoot fine...
On the other hand, I have a 86lb Kramer HH style longbow and it loves a well made flemish style dacron over the endless fastflite string it came with...
I have an endless on mine but it came with the bow. It must have been cheap material because it stretched like it was made out of the waist band of an old pair of underwear. It stretched so much that when I twist it up to my 8" desired brace height, it wants to start twisting back at the looped ends. So I have a flemish string that should be coming in the mail today made of low creep fast flight material. I bought it from a string maker with a lot of years experience and a lot of postive feedback about his quality.
For accuracy, which do the Olympic shooters choose? Endless, I think just about exclusively. Maybe there is an accuracy difference that I cannot shoot well enough to see. I'm sure they try to maximize accuracy as they are not into looking trad but rather shooting their best. That said, I love flemish twist....just 'cause :)
Consistency is why Olympic shooters choose endless. There's less room for error, and easier to get the same string from different makers, although 99.999% of us will never be able to shoot the difference (myself included).
I prefer the Flemish for the simple reason that I make my own.
Otherwise it doesn't matter to me. I've shot both and haven't noticed a difference.
-Mack
flemish are just too cool to shoot anything else. ive found no reason to shoot anything else
I shoot Flemish Twist, mostly because I make my own & haven't gotten my lazy butt to make a endless loop jig yet.
Endless for simplicity. Flemish are always getting longer and longer.
Properly made, flemish will have more initial stretch but once shot in they will be the same.
Flemish because that is what I started with and know how to make.
my bow came with a flemish so thats what i shoot if it came with an endless thats what i would shoot. it dont make any dif to me or the bow as they do the same job. just my two cants worth
I've never shot an endless on a trad bow. The flemish looks more traditional and that's what Chad makes.
By the way, I need to get a couple made pretty soon. Hey, Chad ......
well i think the jurry has a verdict : endless loop strings are for girls ....
lol jk :dunno:
I like flemish because they are easier for me to make. My jig is much smaller and takes up less room and I can twist up a flemish quicker than I can make an endless.
But I guess I just like the looks of a flemish better.
QuoteOriginally posted by robtattoo:
There's no option for 'Don't Care'
I trully don't care, one way or t'other. There's no difference I can see/feel/hear between endless or flemish. They both work for either longbow or recurve.
I agree with Rob. I like both, but my old, arthritic hands like making endless ones better! I've built jigs for making both and can make either, but I seem to do mostly endless of late...not because they are better, but because making them is easier on my hands.
properly made, neither string type is superior to the other.
i prefer endless only because replicating string length is far easier than flemish.
other than that .... :wavey:
only the cool guys shoot endless. Anybody can get a flemish string.
:D
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
only the cool guys shoot endless. Anybody can get a flemish string.
:D
good point, charlie! :thumbsup: :laughing:
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
only the cool guys shoot endless. Anybody can get a flemish string.
:D
:saywhat:
:rolleyes:
:biglaugh:
lmao :bigsmyl: :campfire:
Well, I guess I got my Answer!! :readit: Thanks Guys for Participating in my Poll!! :notworthy: :notworthy: :archer2:
Agree with James Wrenn, Flemish because I know how to make them.
i can go to bass pro and get a endless loop for the kids and wife ... but i get all my strings from flemish twist men . they only make strings for men. :biglaugh: :laughing: :archer2:
I prefer flemish. It is quieter, and if made properly it is just as consistent as an endless. The problem with flemish is most string makers don't know how to properly make one that comes our round as it should be. Too many look like 2 or 3 ropes wrapped around one another because they don't properly countertwist the individual bundles prior to flemishing the groups together.
Made right, the flemish is not only just as consistent, but it is also stronger than an endless.
I prefer flemish twist...from a good string maker...got to use wax and lay them in right. Then got to take care of it with regular waxing...
keep em sharp
ron herman
QuoteOriginally posted by Lee Dogman:
... Made right, the flemish is not only just as consistent, but it is also stronger than an endless.
not true ... both string types of equal string fiber and strand count will have the same breaking strength. since endless has served string loops, those
can be far more durable than flemish.
the following excerpt is by tim baker, taken from the bowyers bible, volume II ...
"Many archers and writers of the past and present have assumed the loop of an endless string is weaker than the string itself. the following argument is presented:
The loop is only half as thick as the main string, therefore only half as strong. For the loop to have sufficient strength, string thickness has to be doubled, doubling the entire string's mass in the process.
This seems to make perfect sense, and if my engineer friend, Dick Baugh, hadn't set me straight on the matter, the above argument might have stood. Many a fight, by the way, has been started down at The Bowmaker's Bar over just this subject.
It's easy to prove that an endless string's half thickness loop is as strong as it's full thickness body: Determine the strength of a strand of string. Loop it over a smooth hook of a pull scale, two strands hanging down. Pull on both strands, noting the scale weight at the breaking point.
This seems unfair, two strands against the loop's single strand, but the single strand will hold it's own. Breaking strength will be double that of a single strand broken in a straight pull. Almost! Minor abrasion takes place where the loop meets the nock, and bunching/crushing pressures lower loop strength just slightly. This requires loops to be slightly thickened, by thickening the whole string. A soft serving should be used to cushion the loop."note: hindsight shows that the sentence 'this requires loops to be slightly thickened, by thickening the whole string' should have been amended to 'this requires the loops to be slightly thickened, by padding the loops with a few extra strands'.
:nono: the bottom line is, do NOT think that endless spun bowstrings are inferior to flemish twist bowstrings.
if one digs in a bit, one will find there are many things about endless strings that are - IN SOME WAYS - better than flemish.
a bold statement? not really, not for anyone who's been spinning and twisting strings for over 50 years.
this is NOT to say that endless is "better" than flemish - that would be dumb. but there are things about each string type that bear understanding, and evaluating.
it's important to note that either string type is more than capable of getting the trad bowhunting job done - there are no advantages to either in that scenario.
ymmv, but it shouldn't if ya know the facts.
I used to shoot competitively and made my own endless strings. I double served the loop ends with a thin nylon thread which made the loops lighter and gave me a slight gain in speed. Endless strings are very consistent if you make them well and if you are a good enough archer you can tell a difference. My biggest problem with flemish strings is that they really stretch a lot before they "bottom out". A well made string is as important as a well made arrow, IMO, and for accuracy issues I believe the endless has the edge...at least in my experience. However, I tend to use flemish because I can make them easily and in hunting situations and distances the differences, for me, are nil. If I were shooting competitively I would be shooting lighter weight bows with endless strings made by me with about ten twists in them.
Rob,
When the number of strands in the string are equal, a flemish has at least twice as many strands in the loops and is therefore stronger than an endless string.
Even if no "padding" was added in a flemish a 10 strand string would have 20 strands in the loops while an endless string would only have 10 strands in the loops.
I have ran chain through cast iron weights and attached the weights to a string by using "S" hooks. Doing "weight drop" tests to simulate the shooting an extremely heavy bow, I found that the flemish string held up better. Endless strings almost always break in the loops where the hooks attach to the loop and broke before the flemish strings.
I did this about 10 years ago and I don't remember at what point the strings failed, but if you want to know the particulars, I am willing to repeat the tests and report the exact findings. I don't remember what material I did this with either. I don't think there would be much difference in dacron strings since one doesn't typically pad the loops on a dacron string, but I would still favor the flemish just because of the higher loop count in the loops. I suspect I used dynaflight97 in my tests since it is my favorite material, and if that is so I suspect my flemish loops had more than double the loop count since I pad loops and would have most likely tested the products in the manner that I would use them. If that was the case, then admittedly my flemish strings had MORE THAN double the string count in the loops due to the loops being padded, but I don't believe that is cheating because that is also how I make them for bows as well. What I do remember is the flemish held up better and that part stuck in my mind.
When I make a flemish dynaflight of 9 or 12 strands, the loops have splices added to them to bring up the loop count to 30 strands. A flemish 30 strand loops is CERTAINLY stronger than a 9 or 12 strand endless.
Again, I am talking about when two strings are made properly.
Again, the biggest problem with flemish is finding someone that knows how to make them properly by
1. counter-twisting the individual bundles after
2. adding loop padding, but before
3. flemishing the groups together so one ends up with
4. a round finished product that doesn't look like 2 or 3 ropes wrapped around one another.
I of course do this in every string I make, and I believe Chad (LBR) does it properly as well as we have met and discussed string making, but far too many string makers do NOT do this properly.
QuoteOriginally posted by Lee Dogman:
Rob,
A 10 strand endless has 10 strands in the loops.
nope. a 10 strand endless string has 5 strands in one loop and 6 strands in the connecting loop.
A 10 strand flemish has 20 strands in the loops.
When the number of strands in the string are equal, a flemish has at least twice as many strands in the loops and is therefore stronger than an endless string. In some cases a flemish has even more than double the count should "slices" are added in.
nope. physics tests have proven that given the same number of main body strands, of the same fiber, in an endless and a flemish string, they both break at the same tensile strength.
When I make a flemish dynaflight of 9 or 12 strands, the loops have splices added to them to bring up the loop count to 30 strands. A flemish 30 strand loops is CERTAINLY stronger than a 9 or 12 strand endless.
nope, not at all so. do some physical tests - i did because i was skeptical.
also, yer also talking about padding a flemish - endless can, and should, also be padded! i use 8 strand dyneema'02 endless strings for my 55# longbow, each loop is padded with 6 strands and served with soft #4 nylon.
Again, I am talking about when two strings are made properly.
now i can give a 'yep!'. :)
A correction in my post is indeed needed.
The flemish has not twice as many as an endless, but twice as many as the BODY. Meaning a flemish 10 strand string would have 20 strand loops.
While an endless has not half as many as the flemish, but half as many as the BODY. Meaning a 10 strand endless string would only have 5 strand loops.
This only further illustrates why I found what I found.
The endless failed quicker in weight drop tests.
I never padded the loops on an endless string by adding strands to the loops. I padded the loops of an endless string by just serving the loops twice. There is a reason this industry standard for endless strings. I have never met a maker that padded the loops of endless strings by adding strands to the loops. Every endless string maker I have met padded endless strings simply with extra serving material. It would be difficult to add padding string to the loops on an endless string with extra strands in the body because when you SERVE over "added strands" the strands don't want to lay into the body. Splices under a serving want to follow the serving tool as you serve it and have to be added WITHIN the body strands and then the body twisted to keep them there while serving over them to prevent them from following the serving tool as you wrap over them. Since loops are served in a string with no twists to hold such splices in place, I followed industry standards and simply double served them as that was "industry standard." Even if someone could serve over such padding, it wouldn't do much as it isn't "tied into the weight bearing load" as padding a flemish does since such padding is NOT held in by the weight bearing body strands, but just "served into" place. I know when a serving is added, I can use my own arm strength (without impact) to pull a strand through about 20 wrapps of serving as when we tie the end of our servings. I believe in time that even if padding was added in the loops for 6" down it would still pull out given time and impact of shooting repeatedly.
The flemish is stonger not because it has twice as many as an endless...but because actually FOUR TIMES as many strands in the loops.
QuoteOriginally posted by Lee Dogman:
A correction in my post is indeed needed.
The flemish has not twice as many as an endless, but twice as many as the BODY. Meaning a flemish 10 strand string would have 20 strand loops.
While an endless has not half as many as the flemish, but half as many as the BODY. Meaning a 10 strand endless string would only have 5 strand loops.
This only further illustrates why I found what I found.
The endless failed quicker in weight drop tests.
I never padded the loops on an endless string by adding strands to the loops. I padded the loops of an endless string by just serving the loops twice. There is a reason this industry standard for endless strings. I have never met a maker that padded the loops of endless strings by adding strands to the loops. Every endless string maker I have met padded endless strings simply with extra serving material. It would be difficult to add padding string to the loops on an endless string with extra strands in the body because when you SERVE over "added strands" the strands don't want to lay into the body. Splices under a serving want to follow the serving tool as you serve it and have to be added WITHIN the body strands and then the body twisted to keep them there while serving over them to prevent them from following the serving tool as you wrap over them. Since loops are served in a string with no twists to hold such splices in place, I followed industry standards and simply double served them as that was "industry standard." Even if someone could serve over such padding, it wouldn't do much as it isn't "tied into the weight bearing load" as padding a flemish does since such padding is NOT held in by the weight bearing body strands, but just "served into" place. I know when a serving is added, I can use my own arm strength (without impact) to pull a strand through about 20 wrapps of serving as when we tie the end of our servings. I believe in time that even if padding was added in the loops for 6" down it would still pull out given time and impact of shooting repeatedly.
The flemish is stonger not because it has twice as many as an endless...but because actually FOUR TIMES as many strands in the loops.
respectfully, yer way wrong on the strength matter comparison.
in my vid on spinning a skinny endless string, i pad the loops before serving. double loop serving is a thing of the long past, dunno of anyone bothering to do that for a number of good reasons. loop padding is the better way to to. check out my vid (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000100)
Rob,
I will check out the video, but as I stated, I did a "drop weight" test and the endless broke in the loops using the "industry standard" type endless strings...which stands to reason since such strings had a lower strand count in the loops.
P.S. My "bold" text wasn't intended to be "yelling" but just emphasis on the main points. I hope it didn't come off rude. I was just trying to express the main ideas for those that choose to skim read.
OOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mult-tasking doesn't work when the wife and kids are talking to me. I need to stick to doing one thing at a time. I went back and read what I wrote and LOL...I too see several things wrong with what I wrote. My apologies for that.
A 10 string flemish has the same number of strands in the loops, but twice as much in the flemish (tie off). My bad. Doing too many things at once. I wasn't thinking. Still though, the flemish has twice as many strands in the loops as does an endless...and that the fact that I based my opinion on...and it was that fact that I recall explaining my observations in the "weight drop tests" I did some decade or so ago when comparing flemish to endless strings.
Again, my apologies for that error!
Rob, I watched your video, and you certainly make just as good an endless bowstring as anyone and better than most doing it the way you do.
The problem that I see though is you still only have 4 "full" load bearing strands in the bottom loop, as the "padding strands" are only held into position with a serving and are not load bearing strands. They are just padding strands. That said, I am sure they do increase the loop strength to some degree when compared to a non-padded endless (which is what I tested), but still just as your "whip" that you used to pull the tie off end of the serving back through when completing your serving...one can see that string can slip under the serving and move. Therefore, the padding loops although they may increase loop strength to some degree they certainly aren't likely to have "full" load bearing capabilities as would the main body 4 strands that make up the 8 strand string. All the weight of your bow is still on the load bearing strands...in other words, the 4 strands on the bottom loop is your "weak link."
The way a flemish is tied off, the greater the tension on the string, the harder and tighter the flemish is held together as the load further "locks" the flemish loops together. So again, I don't see the endless type having the same load strength as a flemish string. I am willing to test a padded endless string against an equal count flemish to see if you wish (only for the benefit of knowledge). I have nothing to gain or lose from such a test. The test I would recommend again would be a "wait drop test" to mimic the impact of a heavy weight bow being shot, as I wouldn't want to use a real bow since non-of us want to see a bow fail under dry firing or something.
In end, I think I (or someone else) would get the same results I obtained before when using a non-padded endless because...
Going back to a "10 strand string" instead of an 8 strand string...
1. A 10 strand flemish string has the full strength of 10 load bearing strands in the body and in the loops. The "padding isn't load bearing" and is just "padding."
2. A 10 strand endless has the full strength of only 5 load bearing strands in the loops as "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link." Again, the padding isn't load bearing. As I mentioned above, I do believe the padding will help to some degree, but the padding that is added to an endless string isn't likely to carry as much load as are the primary load bearing strands that run through the body of the string since they are only held in by a serving and aren't really bearing the load of the draw. In the endless, this padding is just that...padding.
Five strands just can't hold the load that 10 strands can hold. This again would explain why endless strings tend to break the loops, while flemish strings tend to fail in the body. The only exception I have seen to this is when someone had a sharp string groove that cut the loops...and I think both of us would agree that you can't blame a string for being cut by a sharp corner of glass on a bow that needed to be filed smoother, as that would cut any type of string.
If either bowstring breaks due to stress, it wasn't made properly to begin with.
Jason,
You have to consider how many people today are shooting "ultra light weight" strings...strings that people just 10 years ago would not have even considered shooting.
Lee,
Yes, which goes back to exactly what I posted.
Agreed.