I love to tinker. But Extreme forwar of center is not something I have figured out. I've tried it a number of times. Maybe it is my shooting style, but normally, My arrows do weird things. I mess around with various sizes of cabon arrows. It seems that no matter what I do, my arrows show stiff. Even when I shoot a setup that I KNOW is too weak, my arrows will bareshaft left. (I'm a right handed shooter). I then procede to go up in spine, and still I get the same results. Maybe I just don't get it, but I have had pretty good luck with arrows set up the normal way. I do appreciate the fact that extreme forward of center penetrate better, but until I get it right...I'll just stick with my regular arrow recipies.
If a shaft that you think is too weak flies to the left, indicating it's too stiff, why would you go up in spine? Either need to go down in spine or add point weight.
Jon,
Here is my setup for my 46# Kanati:
ARROW length 30
shaft+feathers+nock wt 245
separate insert weight? 30
adapter weight? 100
point weight 135
total arrow weight 510
balance length 22.38
FOC % 24.60
draw wt 46
arrow wt 510 GPP 11.09
These shoot like darts. I am using a Beman ICS Bowhunter 500 shaft.
Hope this helps. These things shoot through everything and hit right where I'm looking. The Kanati is cut to center, which may make a difference if yours is not.
Russ
The best I can tell you, Jon, is to go with what the arrow is telling you, not what you think it should be. I say that because I've learned it the hard way (read my tag line).
I paper tune with woods rather than bareshafting carbons, but tuning is tuning; just a different road to the same place. Good Luck!
If your showing stiff go weaker in spine. I am shooting 600 spined arrows with 400 grains up front and they spine out perfect at 30 inches of arrow out of a 55lb reflex deflex longbow. They shoot like bullets, spine out perfect and are close to 30% EFOC. I spent a bunch of money on heavier spined arrows before I listened to what the arrows were telling me.
put feathers and a blade on on and see what it does
baby its something in your form / release
sry i ment maby not baby :knothead:
I hear ya Jon.....I've been pulling my bloody arrows out of the dirt for 25 years....didn't even know what my FOC was for most of those years.
I don't know how I've managed to kill anything without all the 'crazes' and 're-inventions' as of late.
Some exact FOC number didn't put that buck in your avatar....YOU DID. Keep putting stock in yourself, and don't worry about what's being touted as 'the latest greatest'.
Laser arrow flight, sharp heads, and accuracy is where its at Vern....KnowwhatImean?
Right on, Terry. There's no magic in this stuff. If it ain't broke...
It still drive me nuts. Out of one bow, I can get carbons with deflections of .600, .500, and .400 to fly perfect with feathers. I'm talking bare shafts through paper with bullet holes or holes to 1.5 inches. I suspect I could get an ACC 0.300 to fly at 50 lbs. Not willing to buy a half doz for 75 bucks to find out.
Bowmania
jonsimoneau i dit the same thing. i just wanted to play around with some new arrows this summer so i built one with High FOC too. it was hard to figure it out but i did it.
whats your draw length?
hers my set up. 53lbs@26.5 draw
easton axis FMJ 400 spine
28 in arrow 270 grains up front
100 brass insert 170 BH
wraps/feather
total grains right at 600
24% FOC
Sometimes what you know is not the truth.:)Sounds like the shaft you know is weak is not really weak at all.I would try a heavier point on the weak shaft to see what happens.Usually when nothing changes like you going to stiffer spines,means you are going the wrong way in your tuning or thinking. ;)
DO what works and the bow tells you. Dead is dead.
terry.. FWIW Richie is a awesome guy ,he knows his stuff and is a heck of a shot. his arrows are awesome i think 800 plus grains, fly like darts and could probably break a waterbuff sholder!
Richie i found a old recurve of mine when i was about your sons age. ill bring it to the HH if your going.. he can have it. he can fing some arrows with us.
Jonsimon whats your draw length?
I don't get the problem some folks have with folks screwing around with different arrow setups. To each their own...play, enjoy. Whatever works.
And the "dead is dead" argument is a red herring. Many of those same folks swap broadheads and bows like water. So if your bow made it dead or your broadhead made it dead, why change? You change because trying new bows and broadheads is fun for you. Nothing wrong with that either.
There is 25,000 gang'ers. Different things will trip different triggers...it is all good.
And back to Jon, what Orion asked is a good question...
You're missing my point. Dead is dead is saying don't get to caught up in what you read and go by what you see/experience. I like messing with the stuff, but I also don't tell a bow what it is going to shoot, I go by what flies best. The object in the end is to make meat for most of us, the rest is a way to fill the time between seasons.
I am assuming that Dr Ashby's study on EFOC has stimulated your desire to obtain ultra FOC.
Please note that Dr. Ashby places arow flight ahead of extreme FOC in his list of penetration
enhancing factors which he has listed in order of importance. Whatever arrow design you choose, you would do well to consider structual integrity and arrow flight before EFOC. Don't wait until an unexpected shot opporuntiy on a trophy at <5yards provides this instruction.
Jon,
I shoot a Morrison Cheyenne and Shawnee @ 46#. Your riser may have different center shot, but I would think a Axis or Beman 400, full length, with 100 grain inserts would be something you could tune. You may still need 200-250 grains of point weight, but it will out penetrate anything you've ever seen!
Most of my bows are 50# and under at my 30" draw length. I've had very good luck tuning and shooting carbons in the 450 grain range with 125 grain heads, 9 to 10 grains per pound depending on the bow. Got caught up in the high FOC thing and tried to bump up my arrow weight by adding heavy inserts, adapters and points. Just couldn't get them to tune well. Finally came to the realization that if I want a heavy arrow I shoot aluminums, and if I want more speed I can kill anything in North America with my 9 to 10 grain per pound setup with carbons. At that point I quit worrying about it and just shoot what works for me. :)
The real answer lies in what you want. If it is an arrow the is reliable and will kill. Then shoot what your used to and be happy with it. If like me your looking for an optimized arrow then take the time and effort to find EFOC arrows and enjoy the journey.
I am shooting 584 grain arrows at close to 30% FOC. I also have a 654 grain set up ready for a trip to Africa once I get the money set up that is 24% FOC. It is a win / win in my book. But only in my book. You have to decide what is best for you.
Jon,
Stiff is good.
That means you can just keep adding weight till it flies correctly.
If its weak, the only thing you can do is back off the weight to get it to stiffen up.
EFOC! Don't need no stinking EFOC! Way - way - down the list of what's important. H
Jon - quit fiddlin' with your arrows - go find another wiener dog and train him - thats a MUCH better use for the off season!
R
I have found that carbon arrows can be shot at various F.O.C.'s effectively. Simple, find the most consistent grouping arrows at 15 to 20 yds and your done. Usually, 175 to 225 on the front works for me. The only thing i worry about is consistent arrow flight.
I am not missing the point. It is not about what you read. It is about what you experience. And that is what Jon's question is about.
Hence the red herring...
dont bare shaft tune with efoc heads...just doesn't work for most folks. Use feathers and just watch the arrow.
If bare shaft tuning isn't working, I'm not going to stop there 'cause that means things just ain't quite right. Feathers cover up a lot of problems, which is the point of bare-shafting. If the spine is perfect for the setup, bare shafts WILL fly straight. If they don't, there are problems still to be worked out, either in spine or some other aspect of the bow setup, like fistmele, side plate thickness, nocking point location, torquing the string, etc.
Hey Jon, i'm shooting the same specs as you out of a Tall Tines recurve. I have been shooting Beman MFX 500's, they shoot great... but with 250 gr. up front they still bareshaft a little stiff, and that's leaving the shaft long ~29.5", my draw length is 27"...total arrow wt. is ~550 gr..12.2 gr.per #. I would like to have a little flatter trajectory...so I picked up some 600's..looking to have the finished arrow ~10.gr. per #. I believe your findings are right on with what I've experienced. I see nothing wrong with playing around with different shafts to get the absolute best arrow flight possible...but when it's time to go to the woods shoot what you have confidence in!
Well. . . you can spend the summer trying to get perfect bareshaft flight...
Or. .
just add feathers to a reasonable set up and
" Voila " better arrow flight !
There is a reason that there are feathers on the back side of an arrow. Not certain what that is. . hmm let me think.
ChuckC
I just tune my carbons so they hit were I'm looking with the broadhead of my choosing. I'm not sure what the the heck EFOC is.
Yea, guys...I'm going to keep messing with it. Might find something I like. I get pretty bored when it is not deer season!
Just make the pointy end hit first. H
QuoteOriginally posted by Ground Hunter:
Just make the pointy end hit first. H
:biglaugh: :laughing: :archer2:
I guess I'm just a simpleton. I shoot my woodies pretty much "vanilla". Plain parallel shaft and a two blde Magnus BH. They shoot better than I can hold. However, I shot with Richie Nell at our state shoot (War Eagle, brother), and those big, heavy telephone poles coming off his bow went straight and hit hard.
Now, it has me screwd up a little bit, as I am beginning to develope an interest in more FOC. Other than heavier arrows with a heavier point, are there other woddy-relate tricks to know about?
Oops, I meant to ask if there are other woody-related tricks to know about. I never said I could type!
Jon,
I've been shooting carbons like this for a long time- in fact, since the poltruded shaft days.
Not because I started out wanting a lot of weight up front- but I was tired of " one shot and you throw away" a wood or aluminum arrow.
So I tested carbons. Hogs are tough on shafts- and I wanted something they might not be able to break. Carbons were great for that, but lacked enough weight...it was like dry-firing my bow with the typical 125/145 grain broadhead set up.
So I started buying really stiff carbons- because the stiffer the shaft the more it weighed- and had to leave them full length and keep adding weight to the tip until it flew right.
Never cut carbon arrows unless they are too weak, cause that's the only way to stiffen them other than taking off weight at the front.
That's why I buy the stiffest shafts I can get, and start bringing the stiffness down with point weight.
I just shoot the pigs, wash the blood off, resharpen, and put them back in my quiver. Don't misunderstand- they still get broken sometimes, but it was a certainty with wood or aluminum- my record is nine pigs with one shaft...that's cost effectiveness there!
I learned a long time ago that successful bowhunting is the elimination of all mistakes- one way to make things less complicated is to shoot one bow for everything, and the same arrow setup. Switching bow weight/arrow combinations to suit a particular type of game is fraught with issues about relearning the path of the arrow, etc which I personally find difficult, so for that and perhaps a few other reasons I shoot the same bow weight and arrow set up whether I am squirrel hunting or moose hunting...and its worked out pretty good for me so far.