At what point in feet per second, if it were possible via new, as yet unknown manufacturing techniques and materials, to build a traditional styled bow (be it long, recurve, hybrid, etc.) that could cast a 600 grain arrow as fast as you wanted, would it become unethical to use that bow?
In other words, when does the term "traditional archery" become invalidated by technology... even if the bow looks "traditional"?
IMHO I feel"Traditional Archery" is not using mechanical devices and sights,expanding heads,and wheels.But more of a marriage of the mind and body with the bow and arrow to achieve a spiritual encounter with nature and the essence of a hunt.
Why would it be unethical if it were a traditional bow? i never knew we had a speed limit, but i never really cared how fast the bow i shot was unless #1...i could catch the arrow before it hit the target..or #2, it wasn't powerful enough to kill what i am hunting, and that has more to do with momentum and not speed. :)
That being said, you design a traditional bow, that will shoot a 600grain arrow at my every day poundage (48 to 50lbs) that can be shot with control and consistency, that will shoot say 250 fps, i will be happy for you to send me a prototype to test for you! :D i might even buy one!
Off season. :rolleyes:
Speed is the same hype they use to sell wheelbows,tradition I think is more about the things of the past that make bowhunting great,as far as speed is concerned Jack Howard made about the fastest recurve Ive ever owned,most stable as well,sure wish I still owned it but 30 years is along time to hang onto a bow,always miss the best ones too late after youve sold them.
I don't see anything "unethical" about legally shooting a deer with a 7mm. I doubt any bow will be faster than that.
Electricity does NOT *fit* with traditional archery....
Shoot straight, Shinken
I'm glad that bowyers have developed to the point that I can get the same perfomance out of a 50# Carbon R/D longbow vs a 150# English Yew longbow. Nothing wrong with that and it's still traditional as far as I'm concerned :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
What Jason said.
QuoteOriginally posted by pdk25:
Off season. :rolleyes:
:knothead:
There is Traditional archery, then there is Primitive archery. I shoot traditional. Maybe someday what I'm doing will be considered Semi-primitive. I am and will be shooting a semi-modern traditional styled bow. (not a cut out aluminum riser, nothing wrong with em in my book by the way)
The modern definition will change daily. Just like I shoot an "OLD" 1958 bear that was the newest and greatest at that time (or one of em).
Someday someone will be shooting a 50 year old Shrew that "Only" shoots 200fps instead of the newest and greatest shooting 300fps.
It might be naive to say this but, I think bows of traditional design are not going to get too awful much faster do to limitations of materials for quite a while .
It's all relative to the times.
I think there are 2 very different terms being used to describe a bow or style of hunting on this thread.
Traditional= see above for my opinion.(for what it's worth)
Ethical= clean kill however it's done
Legal=legal cause I bet it's going to come up
An unethical choice would be one that wouldn't allow for a clean kill.
I'm not sure I understand the point of your question. There's nothing wrong with someone using their intelligence and ingenuity to design something that is more efficient. And that's really what we're talking about. You won't be finding anything that is more effective, though. You can get a complete pass through on a deer with a 40lb selfbow.
So, if someone designs a 30# bow that shoots as hard as a 60# bow, is that good or bad? Good, I'd say. As long as someone doesn't strap sight on it, they'll still have to utilize the basic skills it takes to shoot a selfbow.
I don't think that would be possible, though. In physics, there are limitations.
I like to hunt with bows where I hold all the weight. Call it what you like. I also like to hunt with the most efficient bows I can so that I know that I am doing all of my part to get a clean kill. I practice diligently and stay within my self imposed limits. I don't need a title for it beyond bowhunting, the rest comes down to personal choices. Do what fits within your ethos and is legal and we can get along fine. :)
Trad, primitive, Hi-tech,Osage limbs, carbon core, bamboo backed, fiberglass,B-50, D-97,450 plus. If your out there shooting 3-D's, hunting, stump'n and have'n fun,"THAT'S WHAT MATTERS",just have fun and do the best you feel you can.If you feel your set-up isn't up to par then change it. If your happy slinging an arrow at blistering 147 fps have at it.....just enjoy the thing! :saywhat:
I don't think that technology kills tradition. I feel the problem lies in why we often use technology; to make things easier, spend less time and be less involved in developing skills. We can see this in trad archery. When the big trad kick hit a little over 20 years ago everyone was after wood shafts and many were learning to build arrows. Then we bought arrows that were built, then we realized we could go to carbon and that was easier, etc. etc. I would recommend we don't look at technology but look at why we are using it.
interesting question, it is kinda like synthetic flintlock muzzle loaders designed for PA's traditional muzzle loader season!?
I bet some old geezers were sitting around a campfire talking about this very topic before the introduction of fiberglass, or compound bows? "What's next" is always something that crosses my mind, and it is always a concern. We went from bows, to rifles, to faster bows, and even further to more accurate faster rifles. I am like all of you guys and I stride to make as clean of a kill as I possibly can, but really where do we draw the line when it comes to "fair". When does technology create a scenario when hunting is no longer fair?
Good mind food Konrad!
QuoteOriginally posted by ron w:
Trad, primitive, Hi-tech,Osage limbs, carbon core, bamboo backed, fiberglass,B-50, D-97,450 plus. If your out there shooting 3-D's, hunting, stump'n and have'n fun,"THAT'S WHAT MATTERS",just have fun and do the best you feel you can.If you feel your set-up isn't up to par then change it. If your happy slinging an arrow at blistering 147 fps have at it.....just enjoy the thing! :saywhat:
I couldn't agree more! It's just an academic (did I spell that right?) question.
Konrad....I wasn't trying to say anything against your post or thoughts. I just think we all tend to think to much and not focus on the enjoyment of watching an arrow in flight!!! :thumbsup:
It always amuses me to see someone try to define "Trad" on the Internet.
Look back in history and we have always been obsessed with speed,(Or as they use to call it before $99.00 chronographs... "Cast")
Read any of the old books from the 1930's and earlier and they were always in quest of the best.. Nothing has changed.
If your bow doesn't have wheels or string holding devises... Its Trad.
Relax and enjoy the ride.
Well, first their gonna have to figure out how to make a bow that is 100% efficient, and that'll be easy compared to making one 101% efficient. So as they say "it aint gonna happen".
Eric
Yikes man- wouldn't it be more satisfying to just get a mirror and study the lint in your navel?
Every guy that has ever built more than one of anything has always tried to build the second one better than the first.To think striving for better performance in todays bows is new or wrong is way off base.It is normal and very traditional for man to seek for "better", be it in performance or overall quality in a product.
Ethics has nothing to do with what you use,how fast it shoots or what it is made of.It is all about how "you" use it.
Earl: If your bow doesn't have wheels or string holding devises... It's Trad.
James on Laptop: Every guy that has ever built more than one of anything has always tried to build the second one better than the first. To think striving for better performance in today's bows is new or wrong is way off base. It is normal and very traditional for man to seek for "better", be it in performance or overall quality in a product.
Ethics has nothing to do with what you use, how fast it shoots or what it is made of. It is all about how "you" use it.
I like and agree with both equally,
K
I think Uncle Gene said it best in his last book. Something about not overwhelming the deer with too much technology. Let's face it...deer do not much care about the latest and greatest technology. I'm not against gun hunting...I just don't wanna do it anymore. I'm also not against compounds..since I used one years ago, but I gotta say...the compounds of today are much more advanced than they were even 15 years ago. There are alot of compound hunters who could easily "bring home the bacon" with traditional gear, but many have never been exposed. My dad did not deer hunt with bows. When I started...I did not even know you could get traditional gear at the time. I've said it before, but the writings of Gene and Barry Wensel changed my life. Not just how I hunt...but my life. Good stuff!
QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
I like to hunt with bows where I hold all the weight. Call it what you like. I also like to hunt with the most efficient bows I can so that I know that I am doing all of my part to get a clean kill. I practice diligently and stay within my self imposed limits. I don't need a title for it beyond bowhunting, the rest comes down to personal choices. Do what fits within your ethos and is legal and we can get along fine. :)
Well said, Dave! You pretty much summed up my feelings too. :thumbsup:
We live in a time where hunting has become a BIG business. Hunters have and will be bombarded with anything that gives them an "edge over the game". The modern world produces blister pack outdoorsmen who want instent gratification every time they are on the water or in the woods. Everyone here knows someone who needs all the new toys of the year to be a more proficient killer in a shorter amount of time. As Traditional archers we pride ourselves in doing things the hard way in order to savor the entire hunt, not just the outcome. If you look at what the stick bow industry has produced in the way of techno/cutting edge products in the last 10 years you will find nothing has changed. The bow/string/arrow improvements have done more for the longevity of the gear then its overall use. Yes, I agree we see a few more feet per second and a fast flite string will outlast a b-50 and a carbon arrow will take more punishment then a footed ceder shaft. But this still has not given anyone greater ability then they had 10 years ago. The bottom line, its not what you hold in your hands but what you hold in your heart.
Running Buck i totaly agree !!!!!!!!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by Foxtail:
Yikes man- wouldn't it be more satisfying to just get a mirror and study the lint in your navel?
I did (wasn't satisfying).
Was "traditional" though (all cotton) ;)
For me, technology doesn't kill traditional archery. I enjoy better designed widgets and probably always will.
Complication is what kills traditional archery for me. Keep it simple and it doesn't make me a bit of difference what's in the lam layers. A bow, a string, an arrow and a target. What else do you need?
There are more effective tools available to us other than a stick and string...it's a matter of choice, and ethics has nothing to do with it.
I sho0t bows to hunt. I went back to trad bows 18 yrs ago cause they made it FUN again! All I shoot at 3D, etc, is practice to hunt.
I hunt cause I love deer meat. And I love the excitement when a critter steps out and I get to watch it unobserved: chippy, fox, coon, turkey, deer or bear. It's a God-rush. I love the "juice."
I embrace what technology I can so I can shoot the best possible combo of bow and arrow I can, invest the time I can to improve my abilities...and then embrace some technology to help me minimize whatever human error I might induce inadvertently.
I respect the animals too much to ever let pride forbid me embracing some technology until I'm so good, it doesn't matter.
:laughing: Yeah, that's funny!At least the last part! :)
Oh, on that note: Thank you Bob Morrison for coming up with a foam core, carbon limbed longbow set-up for my Cheyene riser. I now have decent lethal power at my constantly reducing draw weight to keep me in the game a bit longer! That THAT, Arty Ritis! :)
Well, look at ted nugent. he shoots a compound bow but it has no sights or stablizers or anything and he shoots fingers.
The answer seems to be that FPS can be unlimited as long as the bow looks "traditional". Standing 20 feet away from 2 shooters, one all super duper and the other all self bow and wood, both with the "traditional " look, I would dare say that the guy that will impress the most is the one drilling the "bull". And when we go over and talk to the "winner", we'll all want to know about his equipment. Arrow cast may, or not, be evident but the grouping will be the most impressive. If you need/want the newest and bestest - go for it, if not - go for it. As long as it "looks traditional", it'll BE traditional.
Actually. . . I wonder if those guys before fiberglass would have cared or would even have rolled their eyes and said "what next". Everybody was looking for an advantage, a way to get or be better.
I really don't think that even the initial advent of the compund bows caused that response, other than they are heavy and loud and ugly.
I think that it is more recent, since compounds (Mfr's) have been striving to make it easier and easier for anyone to shoot a bow and making them faster and faster and with more and more let off.
ChuckC
"In other words, when does the term "traditional archery" become invalidated by technology... even if the bow looks "traditional"?
Never.
Words have no "inherent" meaning. If the masses say something is "traditional" then it is traditional. After all our current concept of "traditional archery" is only an artificial construct. We can enjoy it only because of the thousands of humans before us who followed the "tradition" of seeking better ways to do things and took advantage of them. We are able to practice traditional archery only because of our modern lofty and comfortable vantage point that technology has brought us.