I hear it all the time...."Bow is forgiving, fast, no hand shock, STABLE...."
Just what does "stable" actually mean?
Thank you
I always figured it meant well balanced.
When I say stable I am saying that a bow is all of those things really. A "stable" bow is easy to be consistent with, does not have more handshock or vibration that the shooter is comfortable with, is balanced, and is comfortable through the entire shot.
Like anything else it is opinion and experianced based and it comes down to what works for you.
I agree with Randy, and would add that it would feel like it stayed where it was pointed through the shot and did not feel like it was easily torqued or moved or wobbled once the draw was started, if that makes sense...
As you shoot many different bows it becomes easy to see that some bows stay on target while other bows have to be held on target. Usually bows with good center mass weight and good design are the ones that stay on target by themselves.
To me that is stable.
Mike
Randy, Jake and Mike are spot on with what I think about in a "Stable Bow".
:thumbsup:
Think of it as a relationship.if your in love all things are just perfect and comfortable.thats what a stable bow is "in love".
Simple, it's the bow that when you are at anchor, it points easily at your mark.
When I use the word stable I mean that even though my release or form isn't perfect the bow always seems to hit the mark. I have a few bow's I can turn totally sideways and they still shoot a perfect flying arrow. I think we are all saying the same thing.
I have one bow that I could not part with that does not seem to be affected by release, angles, has virtually no jump on release, stays on target without trying when shot, is fast for its style length and draw, it seems to shoot itself at my draw and can shoot a wide variety of spines. It is a Hill style longbow. The result is the most accurate longbow I have ever seen and I tillered it myself to boot. The most stable recurve I have ever shot was a Jack Howard, shoot one and you will understand stability.
Back in the day (say the 1950's or so) bows were frequently referred to as "sensitive" or "stable" (stable also meant "forgiving"). A sensitive bow was a bow that simply amplified your shooting/form errors making your misses more off target than a stable bow which was more forgiving of shooter error. That was Howard Hill's biggest complaint about recurves and his reason for not shooting them.....they were not stable enough for him to shoot accurately or so he said. Both recurves and longbows have come a long way since he said that.
To add a little detail, longer bows are usually more stable than shorter bows because the more acute string angle on shorter bows amplifies form errors. For example, unequal finger tension/pressure/placement on the string will pull one limb tip a little further than the other. Likewise, torquing the bow will tend to pull the limbs out of alignment. This happens to both short and long bows, of course, but the effect is greater on the shorter limbs. Limb width and thickness also affects stability. A narrow, thick cored longbow is more difficult to pull out of alignment than a thin cored, wide recurve limb. A number of other design features also contribute to a bow's stability or lack of it, for example amount of limb reflex/deflex and placement of the bow limb butts on the riser behind or in front of the grip pivot point, etc. Riser shape (fit) and mass (heavier is usually better) also affect stability. In short, stability has to do with shot repeatability and consistency. A stable bow will accommodate little errors in form, as others have already noted, and still shoot where one aims.
I have talked to some well known bowyers about stability. Generally, they figure a bow with more mass weight in the riser is more stable. As an example, a phenolic riser would be considered more stable than a wood riser because it is heavier. It makes sense that a heavier riser will be less affected by little form wobbles. But the sum of the parts makes the whole bow stable or not, like Orion said.
CB: I agree with you about mass weight but limb design and materials have a lot to do with it.
Stability has many facets when talking bows. The first and easiest to register is overall bow geometry. Bows with properly deflexed handles/geometry increase the distance between the push point on the grip and the combined centre of gravity of the entire bow, the greater this distance is and the heavier the mass of the bow then the greater the rotational mass of the bow and the harder it is to torque the bow from a bad bow hand position. Reflexed risers/ geometry place the push point on the grip back into the bow and so closer to the C of G and so easier to spin and more sensitive to bow hand torque.
The stabilisers on FITA bows are designed to increase the rotational mass with out making the overall mass of the bow over heavy and so bow geometry and weight are vital here and designed for maximum stability. Deflexed risers and external stabilisers to increase the rotational mass in a big way
The way the limbs are designed can be forgiving or sensitive to the archers shooting technique or should I say lack of it. LOL
For example - When you release the string the string rips your fingers out of its way and reacts to the resistance it meets as it springs clear. The string jumps left from the release, the bow riser has not moved (RH archer). This is the very beginning of paradox the fishtailing of the arrow as it leaves the bow.
Now if the limb tips are sensitive, easily deflected left or right then the string will go farther to the left as it pulls the limb tips accross, out of alignment compared to a limb that has greater lateral limb tip resistance. And so with any limb a clean crisp release will give you a central impact on the target and a poor release will increase the reaction and push the string farther left and so you get arrow left right dispersal at the target. A laterally resistant limb will hold these two reactions to a less left reaction a narrower band of string and arrow nock movement and so groups at the target will be less spread left and right. The greater the limb's lateral resistance, the greater the effect to control paradox. Since with this limb type the amount of Yaw from the arrow is reduced then the arrow speed variation is also less from a good and poor release and some minor improvements in vertical dispersal of arrows at the target will also be apparent.
Limbs that are vertically stable and this can be measured by gripping the string and pushing it up and down in the same line of the bow. The limbs that are more resistant to up and down movement will defend better top finger and bottom finger pressure variations from the release hand and reduce the porpoising effect of the arrow on its way to the target from a good even finger pressure to a heavy top or bottom finger pressure. Those of you with ILF risers compare this form of vertical stability. Wind your limbs fully out and fully in, the vertical stability drops considerably fully wound in compared to fully out and low stability here affects high and low spread of arrows at the target assuming that you have a release problem of the type indicated. On vertical stability this is less evident for short hunting bows but easily seen on a long target bows.
Now for those rare individuals with near perfect form these issues are less of problem as consisteancy solves these issues a hootershooter does not even register the above as issues but they are real and a slow hit is infinately better than a fast miss but modern technology and materials allows us to have both speed and stability but not all bows have both. Speed is the first thing that every one asks about but stability and a good natured performance is parramount.
Sorry this was much longer than I intended but stability is a big topic and not easily described in a few words
Sid, :thumbsup:
Sid said it best. No great surprise, considering his background.
Allan
Lots of GREAT INFO here!!!
Thank you all
What Randy Jake and Mike said. My PSA X sits in my hand after the shot and is really stable.
Personally, I have always found a traditional longbow with string follow (or straight limbs) to be the most stable. Obviously, the bow is light, with very little physical weight. Then a longbow with a little backset, 1/2 to 3/4" would be next. For me, a R&D longbow with mild curve is more stable than a shorter bow of the same design. What it means to me is the bow is easier to shoot because it does not exaggerate little shooting errors when they happen. Since my form is pretty good and I don't have to fight any shooting demons, it is easier for me to feel differences in the bows I shoot. If I find a bow that doesn't shoot the way I want, I'll get rid of it.
I think Sid pretty well covered it!
Hud
You are spot on with your observations. However there is an explanation as to why this is true.
When the Power source is in front of something being moved then it pulls it and when behind it, it pushes. Pulling is inherently stable and pushing naturally unstable take a car and trailer for example.
Well at brace height all straight and reflexed longbows at brace height with a continual curve along the limb in one direction, the string, the link from the limbs to the torsional force from the archers finger release) attaches to the limb by the nock and at this point it is fully behind the entire limb and so a longbow with continuous curve limbs pulls the string throughout the shot.
Take a radical recurve sometimes mentioned here as static recurve. At brace height the string attached to the limb nock is actually in front of the limb and so this type of limb pushes the string and depending on the cord ratio of the recurve (how big it is) the string may well be pushed over the entire length of the shot cycle. These types of bows have a reputation for being fast smooth and sensitive to shoot unless the Bowyer has taken extra special care to add stabilisation to the limb design to make the design work. Making a bow more stable makes it slower however if well designed and built it remains a very fast limb overall. For example the HEX5 due to the extra weight that the limb carries in the stabilising layers is approx 5 fps slower than if it did not have any. But accuracy, forgiving of shooting variations, is paramount and so stability is vital more so than flat out speed. Fast miss and slow hit but fast hits consistently are now available!
Low cord ratio recurved limbs the string is pulled over the initial part of the shot and pulled the rest!
Longbows that have reflex shown at brace height only the very last part of the shot cycle and so are not as stable theoretically as a continuous curve types but tend stable all the same. Really short longbows suffer from stack in the main and more acute string angles on the fingers. Having a smooth release is more difficult and so increases the amount of lateral movement on the string as the string grips the shooting fingers more. Greater variation are experienced from a good release to a not so good one.
Traditional Flat D shaped longbows the limbs leave the riser in a straight line this places the bulk of the limb mass forward in the bow and brings the C of G of the bow forward towards the grip. The grip itself projects back towards the archer and so towards the C of G and so bow hand torque issues start to be seem HH eventually made his some risers central in the bow and not towards the belly as in earlier models if you read his books. This would improve the handling marginally.
Sorry for the late reply I was visiting Ann's mother in Hospital and that's a 2.5 hour drive from where we live and so I could not finish this during the weekend
Sid, thanks, as usual a wealth of knowledge. Most describe stability as feel and shoots good. Your posts help explain WHY that happens.
Thank you Sid for taking your time to help in educating us.
My thought processes caused me to have to read your posts more than once to "get-it" but it's getting clearer each time I re-read them.
I think about my definition of stable a little differently than some but it most likely means the same thing in the long run.
I love shooting bows that I don't have to give a second thought. I like to enjoy my shooting and if I have to concentrate on the bow I lose some of that enjoyment.
I can usually figure out within a shot or two whether I'm going to get along with a bow or not.
I have found that recurves with that kind of stability are not as available to me. Most of the older Bear bows seem to work out fairly well for me.
I went from recurves to r/d style long bows. It was getting easier for me to find that stability with these bows but their design variations from bowyer to bowyer made some of them harder to shoot.
One of the characteristics of some r/d bows doesn't even seem possible but sure feels real to my senses and that is perceived(felt) weight during the draw. I have shot some r/d long bows that felt as if the maximum draw weight was on my string fingers almost immediately. It didn't get any heavier out to full draw but it sure isn't comfortable pulling all the weight of the bow all along the length of the draw.
I started moving toward my love of long straight limbed long bows when I picked up a 72" n-t-n bamboo backed hickory composite. I didn't spend a fortune for this one either, its was $55. It made me aware of something, something that didn't hit me between the eyes but being a slow learner I guess it finally dawned on me exactly how much time I found myself picking up this bow to shoot when I was just wanting to give myself a treat or just unwind watching arrows fly.
There were a bunch of higher end bows hanging out in the shop at the expense of this ugly duckling. It made me decide to try a HH Big 5 which I loved. I traded it for a different style of HH since I couldn't afford to just add bows without giving up some others.
I almost feel as excited about trying out as many different HH style bows as I did when I 1st began this archery thing in my life.
What I need is about 6 months of unlimited shooting time with every HH style long bow on the market..lol I think I could settle on some bows that I would love shooting and maybe, just maybe this journey would take a different turn. I would get to go on to level 2....lol
Sorry but like Sid said, its not easy to explain in just a few words. I pray I haven't muddied the waters beyond what's necessary to convey my thoughts/feelings about how important that "stable" thing is to me.
God bless,Mudd
PS: Sid prayers for Ann's mother and all who are affected.
I wish Sid had more time to chime in more often.
Thank you, Sid
Sid
Was this statement you made in your previous post correct?
"Low cord ratio recurved limbs the string is pulled over the initial part of the shot and pulled the rest!"
Just wanted to clarify this as being correct.
Thank you!!
Hud
Many thanks for your good wishes we certainly need them as Ann's mom suffered a stroke on Monday and we dropped everything to get there and Ann has been at hospital every day while I try and hold the fort. We spent the weekend there.
Like every one here archery means everything to me and shooting most of all. Here the enquiry rate is exceptionally high and takes all my time and only occasionally do I get the chance to read the threads. I would love to participate more but you all would get tired of me, Thanks all the same.
Yes on reading my post I could have written it more clearly it goes with the Maxim "Never enough time to do it right but always enough time to do it again".
Low cord ratio recurves those with open recurves lose their recurve action quickly and so most of the action is longbow with only a small recurve action. They store less energy as a result and stack quicker in the Draw-cycle. They are easier to make and easier to make reasonably stable.
To see how this works place an arrow on the bow mark the arrow where it protrudes from the back of the bow at the shelf. Now draw the bow but only until the string lifts off the limb surface, resting just on the nock shoulders and no more now mark the arrow again. The distance between is the recurve action and the rest of the draw is longbow type.
For conventional recurve limbs that you would find in ILF target limbs this recurve action extends to 20 to 21" of the early part of the draw (this for a 68" 25" riser target bow) High cord ration limbs like the HEX4 and HEX5 these are the only limbs we have data on the recurve action extends to 25" and 27" respectively. More energy and smoother. The actual distance will vary with bow length and recurve design. The distance from longbow action is in the main pull but when the recurves start that changes to push the limbs at this stage are under paradox forces.
High cord ratio recurves need modern materials if the are to be fully stabilised and so the materials are expensive and they are more difficult to make and so more expensive. They are exceptionally smooth to draw but they do work you harder over the early draw but much easier over the later draw they can be 5lbs to 10 lbs faster and so you could drop peak weight and still have greater speed.
For example OL tested a set of our HEX4 limbs approx 6 years ago he achieved an AMO of 205 fps. Many think that 200 is yet to be achieved. Bows have got quicker and have twice the torsional stiffness since then and so the journey into bow development is as it has always been in it's beginning with much more yet to come.
Very sorry if this came as a lecture not my style I'm a sort of intense individual and so without thinking my approach is direct often for some too direct.
My head hurts. Just when I started to think I was beginning to understand, Sid had to go and post. Thanks for showing me how little I know.
Josh
I have to read your posts more than once Sid but it's good information to have.
Thank you!
God bless,Mudd
Sid,
It is obvious you care deeply about the flight of the grey goose shaft and have a very good understanding of what makes an efficient bow.
When I shoot an older Bear Kodiak, from 1955 or 1957 and then a 1968 Super Kodiak, I understand why the company redesigned the limbs and handle. The early design has very good speed and is accurate if your form is near perfect. The 68 Super Kodiak has the handle (throat) ahead of the fade out, making it a "puller", less affected by torque from hand pressure; while the shorter limb and wider recurve opens later making it smoother for a longer draw and adding a little speed. The later design makes for a more stable bow and improves speed and durability for most of us. Although, there is loss of some speed, Bear stayed with the longer riser, shorter and wider limb design through their series of Takedowns; tweeking the design to improve stability, speed and durability.
We have not seen much change in speed in bows over the last sixty years, until the invention of the carbon products in limbs and the use of carbon arrows. However, the older I get the more I appreciate stability and durability in a bow.
Although, it is fun to shoot a bow that drives an arrow past the 200 ft/sec but I have grown accustom to the simplicity, durability and stability of a longbow. I will continue to shoot recurves and R&D longbows, but I know which one works best for me under most hunting conditions.
Thanks for the education on bow design, it helps to understand the benefits from the different designs, but I will never have your level of experience and knowledge.
Best wishes to your wife's mother for a speedy recovery.
Thanks to you all and sorry if what was written appeared involved.
In bow hunting shots are for most under 25 yards and so it matters little if the arrow does 180 fps or 210 fps the ability to strike with accuracy is there. using a heavier arrow at the same speed well it just gets better impact forces are greater the bow is more efficient noise and hand shock drop even further and the joy of shooting in creases. For those like me who are getting on in years the chance to drop a few pounds and still have the performance on tap is another joy.