Trad Gang

Do any bowyers honor the warranty period for other than the original owner?  That is the kind of service I look for.

Many of them will work with second/third etc owners b/c most bowyers are good folks, but really I don't think that there should be an expected obligation. After a bow has been passed around/sold a few times, who knows what abuse that they've undergone? I've seen some amazing generosity and willingness by multiple bowyers to 'make things right' several years after the bow was sold, but that's not always the case, nor should it be. It's generally best to discuss with the bowyer and work something out that is FAIR to both parties and not just 'no cost' to the owner. Bowyers have bills to pay just like the rest of us.

Exactly the same experience as David above.

If there is a problem with a bow I built due to workmanship or faulty materials, it is my job to make it right, regardless of who owns the bow at the time.  The reputation of my business depends on it.

David and Bjorn, appreciate your input but my bow is 6 months old and the riser is cracking from fade out to fade out.  My high end bowyer ($1000+ single piece) suggests he will super glue and refinish the area at my expense.  I worry the wood was not totally dry and will continue to crack.
The above response is the kind of bowyer I am looking for.

I don't know who your bowyer is, but I do know Chad Holm, and he will make it right if there is a problem on his end. Great guy, and he builds one of the best bows around.

Allan

Chek-Mate's "official" warranty is with the original owner, but they have taken care of bows well outside the warranty.  No doubt in a situation like yours, unless it was obviously your fault, you would be getting a new bow asap.

It's pretty sad that your bowyer won't stand behind a bow that's 6 months old, but it happens.  Happened to a friend of mine too--for his time and trouble and about $1,000, he has pieces and a splinter in his hand from a shattered riser.  He was the original owner too.

Hope it works out for you. Most will do everything possible to make it right. On the other hand, it's getting more difficult for bowyers to stand behind their products as much as they would like since there are some unscrupulous folks out there who abuse their bows and then expect the bowyer to come out of his pocket to fix it.

IMO if you bought the bow used you obviously saved some money in doing so over buying new part of what YOU sold for that little bit you saved was the obligation of warranty.

With that said there are great bowyers who stand behind their products %100 and they can usually tell if the problem stems from abuse or failure in material or manufacture.

Bill

I have 2 Traditional bow as you can see below. I think that either of the bowyer's that made them would stand behind their work. I too find it hard to figure why someone would not stand behind their work that was only 6 months old. But again I'm sure there are those out there that are looking for a way to shaft someone too. It's like I say about everything; It is only a few who mess it it up for the many. I sure hope you get your bow repaired. I had a wheel bow one time that I had to go round and round with the manufacture about before they would stand behind their work. It was deer season too. It worked out in the end. Good luck.

To answer your question, yes. Dan Toelke goes above and beyond what is expected in his customer relations. He has gone out of his way to help me on several occasions.

QuoteOriginally posted by easyup:
my bow is 6 months old and the riser is cracking from fade out to fade out.

That's a materials problem, plain and simple.  The wood was either not properly seasoned, had a fault to begin with or was ill-suited to the use it was chosen for (ie bocote has a tendency to crack with normal seasonal changes)

Though the bowyer shouldn't be under obligation to replace the bow free of charge (afterall you didn't buy it new) most of the bowyers I've dealt with would try to fix/stabilize the crack w/o charging you more than for shipping.  If it couldn't be fixed a few I know would offer to replace it for the cost of materials.  It's their reputation and that definitely sounds like a material problem.  

Did the bow show any signs of a crack when you bought it?

"With that said there are great bowyers who stand behind their products %100 and they can usually tell if the problem stems from abuse or failure in material or manufacture."

Yep--generally they can tell, and won't be offering bs excuses as to why there was a failure.  I know CM has repaired/replaced bows in the past in which the damage was questionable, even helped folks out that admitted the damage was their fault.

Unless the bow was dry-fired or something along those lines, it really shouldn't matter if it's changed hands 15 times.  The bowyer got paid in full by the first owner--any losses were taken by the customer(s).  When a bow that's 6 months old fails, something was very wrong, either in the build or how it was treated.

I know that most warranties are only for the original purchaser, so technically the bowyer isn't obligated to  do anything...but in the long run they are only hurting themselves by not taking care of a situation like this.  That kind of stuff will shut down a shop sooner or later.

There are some real gems out there that go out of their way to support their customers. That being said, I had a very high end bow, I was the original owner and my top limb was twisted right out of the box. Bowyer asked me to bump them back. Well after two weeks of trying that, let's just say, I will not be his customer anymore.

Well I think a 0ne year warranty should cover the product,not just the person that bought it.After a year it is up to the bowyer to do what he fells fits the situation.Not an always fix this type of thing but on a issue to issue bases.Any defects that should be addressed by warranty work most likely will show up before a year is up anyway and most times much quicker.After that it is usually something caused by the person shooting the bow.

I don't worry too much about warranties on bows and it would not be a deciding factor on buying one or not for me.I can tell when it was built right to start with and am capable of fixing anything that might go wrong later on.I certainly would never hold it against a bowyer that would not fix something outside the warranty period or if I bough a used bow.But that is just me.   :)  jmho

I am not going to be too quick to make any kind of judgement here as their are too many questions. If the bow is only 6mos.old,did the previous owner sell it as is? how long has it been in your possession? Do you know that the previous owner was telling you the truth about condition of bow? Did you get in touch with the previous owner about this problem? If the bowyer policy is warranty only to the purchaser why would anyone expect him to fix for free. Remember buyer beware.

I am the second owner of a Wes Wallace "Royal" longbow. When the tip came apart he fixed it with no charge. I did pay shipping and since the bow was 10 years old(?) I paid to have it refinished. Wes Wallace is one of the first I will call when a new bow is needed.

From some of the comments regarding bowyers not warranting their bows to another owner, the bow still being in the warranty period, would you feel different if the product was different?

Ford, GM, toyota, Honda etc warranty their products for the full warranty period so why wouldn't a "custom" bowyer do the same. Many people buy a custom bow rather than a "factory" bow for the quality and performance advantages???

in this case it may be a hard lesson but if you can afford it I would purchase another bow from the names mentioned above, and keep 6 month old "custom" and bring it to very 3D shoot I went to.

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
Yep--generally they can tell, and won't be offering bs excuses as to why there was a failure.  

The other side of the coin is sometimes someone has abused the snot out of one, expects the bowyer to take care of it and the bowyer who's already making very little on the bow has to come out of his pocket. Enough of those will shut down a bowyer just as fast as not standing behind a warranty for the "good" customers. As said, one bad apple can spoil it for everyone else.

I certainly wouldn't want to be a bowyer today with the way I've seen folks use/abuse their bows, especially the high performance ones.

The difference between Ford, GM, Toyota is their warranty states it is transferable, while most,if not all  custom bowyers state to original owner. Two different circumstances, with auto's buyer usually having a period of time to register their name to qualify for remaining warranty. I realize what you are saying but a deal is a deal if you accept the offer. I am still curious about the guy that sold the bow to him.

QuoteThe other side of the coin is sometimes someone has abused the snot out of one, expects the bowyer to take care of it and the bowyer who's already making very little on the bow has to come out of his pocket. Enough of those will shut down a bowyer just as fast as not standing behind a warranty for the "good" customers. As said, one bad apple can spoil it for everyone else.  

The good thing is word gets around, both about individuals who try to abuse a warranty and about bowyers who won't honor their warranty. The internet has made the traditional world a very small one when it comes to cons and crooks.  I guess it could happen, but I've never heard of a bowyer having financial  problems because they stood behind their products too well.  I can think of a couple that went under due to lousy products and/or lousy service though.

The only bowyer/company I have a close working relationship with is Chek-Mate, and although they have had a few folks here and there try to abuse their great service, it's never come close to shutting them down.  A bowyer that knows his stuff can usually tell what went wrong...and if there's any doubt, they are generally money ahead if they take care of it either way.  If there is no doubt, and the customer is just trying to yank your chain, well...you can tell them to take a hike.  In the case I mentioned I was there, and saw the first bow personally.  No scheme there, just a poorly made bow and no honoring the warranty.

CM doesn't have a bow that cost anywhere near $1,000 (as the one mentioned), they don't give any hassle over warranty work, and they have been going strong for 40+ years.  Must be something to it.   :thumbsup:

cbCrow is right--right or wrong, ethical or not, if the bowyer says the warranty is only good for the original buyer, they have the right to refuse to fix it for the second owner--doesn't matter if it's six months or six days.  To me that's morally corrupt, but legal.  Like someone said, buyer beware.

I still can't help feeling that there is something we aren't aware of concerning previous owner or condition of this bow. I usually reserve judgement until all facts are in. I don't start talking morals or ethics until I can make a honest assessment of facts which are not being presented as of yet.  :archer:

You are right again Crow...there's always two sides to every story.

Appreciate the frustration Easyup. LBR has a point. Not every bow has been abused. Then again some are abused and have no issue. Ask a few relevant questions and u'll generally get a few opinions. Opinions are like nether orifices, everyone has one! Regardless of the good intent in which this information is given there is nothing like real experience, which can be gleamed from many on Trad. I often throw a question at someone I perceive may have a clue on a subject or bow type. Most are quiet generous with their time, some don't respond. Don't take it personally as the ones who do can usually set u straight.
The reality is in most instances like this u'll have to bite the bullet, if u want to avoid further pain do more research. The time spent getting sound info from willing wise can save u thousands. I received the following from a bowyer and think it relevant as one I got ended up being for me someone else's shattered dream.
"A little perspective from a bowyers standpoint is that most consumers want the fastest prettiest bow. And there are enough fly by night bowyers out there that will promise the sun and the moon in order to get a sale expectations are unreal. The old bows of yesteryear shot 160 fps and where made out of black glass with a good maple core. New bows are made with some exotic wood and clear glass that has very little fiber in it in order to make it as clear as water. even though you try and put a finish on that is UV resistant you still have UV light breaking down the glues. Then the customer wants to use some new no stretch string with 6 strands just to gain another 3FPS that is a accident waiting to happen."
When u do go new unless u have a real clue advice from the bowyer should be a major contributing factor in the choice. With regard to bowyers or anyone providing a good or service The regular denial of accountability if fault is found will eventually bring a them unstuck. Once u have a few people with similar issues the bad taste left inevitably transfers to word of mouth which will take effect of course in the long run. Little comfort for those caught along the way I know

Guess I'll ask the obvious question (or maybe I missed the answer already given?).  What was the reason given for not fixing the bow?  Because you weren't the original owner, because it showed signs of abuse, or?

I didn't mean to sound like I was passing judgement on this particular case--I don't know either party, or nearly enough about it to have an informed opinion.  I just know such things happen, based on first-hand experience.

My curiosity is also piqued.  Anyone know of a bowyer going out of business because they backed their warranty too well?  Just curious.

Chad

I think this is a tricky subject, however, I have never gone wrong in business giving a customer the benefit of a doubt.

There are many bowyers out there now, and thank goodness for all the great sponsors on this website, there are many many people to choose to business with.  

I agree, there are two sides to every story, and that is true in many aspects of running a business.

Everyone one has to make choices.

Good Luck hope it works out.

I had one come unglued and split a few weeks ago.  The bow was 14months old and I bought it 2nd hand when it was 5 months old.  I do have a bow from the same bowyer that I bought new from him a few years ago.  I called him and told the situation at the time the bow broke and asked if anything I did helped it happen so I wouldnt destroy my other bow.  He said it sounded like too much moisture content and asked if I wanted the same woods, length, and weight in a new one.  I told him I wouldnt be buying a new one, he said no need he was replacing the one that broke.  I reminded him this was the bow I bought used, he said "That don't matter, I made it and I stick behind my work, your getting a new bow"  I was surprised and very grateful.  Some people just understand business and customer service, some dont.

Good Friends,
For all the PMs and the above, I will tell you the bow came to me from a Trad Gang member who sells a lot of this bowyers bows (he obviously has the money to play with lots of this bowyers bows) and I very strongly would support his integrity.  The bowyer routinely posts here.  I got the bow in perfect condition three weeks after he bought it new.  The bow was still on the bowyers site for sale the day I received  it from our fellow member.  It shoots as well as any of my bows (Robertsons, Black Swans, others by this bowyer, etc.) and is smooth as silk (carbon).  It is macassar ebony which is cracking and I recognize can be prone to checking; however, this is a split that started in the lower riser just a few days ago and now has moved through the shelf and all the way up to the fade out in the upper portion of the riser which has me worried it is not repairable as it is a drying issue.  The bowyer is free to expect me to pay for repairs for a 6 month old bow, which I consider risky, but fully admit this approach may be dead wrong and a fine approach to the issue.  However, I am free to look for bowyers who factor in this kind of issue in their business model and honor materials issues.

What rubs me wrong is when a bow fails with the 1st, 2nd, 3rd owner because of a workmanship defect and the boyer knows about it and doesn't stand behind his mistake. I have seen it first hand and it's just wrong.

Sometimes I think the problems really start to surface when a certain bowyer starts off making bows in a easy to manage pace, makes an excellent product, we all jump in line putting pressure on him to complete his orders and either he rushes and misses on a couple or he expands his business with more help and the quality control goes out the window. It's a safer bet to stick with someone who has adapted his business to support his customers or limits his business to only what he can handle.

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
My curiosity is also piqued.  Anyone know of a bowyer going out of business because they backed their warranty too well?  Just curious.

Nope, most are smart enough to make a change before that happens. I know of three who became much more "selective" about who they sold to because their 100% warranties began to become financial burdens. These were issues associated with abuse/misuse, not craftsmanship or materials.

I'm Just wondering what part of original owner is so hard to understand??????? In most cases there is a reason why you buy used, It is cost...
I'm sure you were aware of the warranty or should have been when you bought the bow used and accept the responceablity for your new to you bow, and not try to push it of on the bowyer as his fault you have a problem.... Customer service is for customers, doesn't sound to me that you are a customer to this bowyer or he would have fixed your problem....

Bob, I understand perfectly and I did not check the warranty.  I, like many on this site, move through a lot of great bows because I like to work up a good arra, get it shooting as good as I can and move on, maybe wierd but I like it.  I started this message as bowyers can run their business anyway they want and that's fine with me.  I just wanted to know who will back their product for subsequent owners (me and the guys I pass bows on to) and from the number of PMs and posts I know their are other guys out there that pass through a lot of bows and are likewise interested in the "different" view of a warranty.  Thanks

Easyup,I feel for you and can understand your feelings, but I still feel you could have made an attempt to get in touch with the bowyer to find out his warranty policy before purchase. This thread brings up,to me, the subject of responsibility. If we buy used can we expect the bowyer to extend his warranty for us. How long? How many buyers? Who made the decision to buy, not the bowyer because I'm sure he would rather sell you a new bow, you did! When you buy from another individual you basically" plop down your money and take your chances".  :archer:

The bow is 6 months old... assuming the riser is cracking due to faulty material (which seems to be the case) It would be a bad business move for a bowyer not to step in and take care of the problem. This would be a good step in gaining potential customers..or losing potential customers once the word got out that the problem wasnt taken care of.....anyone that steps thru your door should be a customer...whether they purchase or not...

Spot on JL.  I've had gobs of folks contact me, needing help or information on bows they didn't buy through me.  I've never refused to help, even though it cost me time, and sometimes money.  For one, I try to treat folks the way I'd like to be treated, and two, people remember good service.  It always pays me back in the long run.

There's been a few (very rare) occassions that I didn't help with other things--it was when it was obviously an attempted scam.  You can be courteous without being stupid.

It's a mix of technicalities vs. realities.  Technically, if a warranty is only good for the original purchaser, then technically the bowyer shouldn't be held responsible, regardless if it's his fault or not.  Technically, it would be the buyer's responsibility to find out up-front if the warranty was transferrable and/or if the bowyer would honor the warranty for any amount of time if the bow changed hands.

The reality is anyone expects a bow that is 6 months old to hold up.  The reality is if you pay top dollar (new or used), you expect top quality, including top service.  The reality is the bowyer can save some time and money up front by sticking strictly to the warranty, but loose much more in the long run.  The reality is word gets around, good or bad.  That is, again, if the problem could be due to materials or workmanship.

Just my opinion, based on several years of owning/operating a traditional archery based business.

Spot on Jacob, I saw it first hand, guy bought a bow that was a couple of months old. The bow blew up because the Boyer made a mistake when building it. This boyer knew there was a problem but because it was in the hands of a 2nd owner he didn't fix it. I Understand the warranty is for the first owner but this was the Boyers mistake (which he knew of) and no fault of the 2nd owner.

So what is the right thing to do in this case?
Only buy new?

Why Have a warranty at all if it means nothing????? How about being about to lower the price of the bow by $150 and have a 6 month (Not 7) warranty period? If it is workmanship or material it is going to blowup in that time frame. with the $150 maybe you could buy an extended warrantee. I get offeres all the time to extend my Truck.

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
The reality is anyone expects a bow that is 6 months old to hold up.  The reality is if you pay top dollar (new or used), you expect top quality, including top service.  The reality is the bowyer can save some time and money up front by sticking strictly to the warranty, but loose much more in the long run.  The reality is word gets around, good or bad.  That is, again, if the problem could be due to materials or workmanship.

The reality also is that sometimes customers abuse bows: shoot super light arrows, don't string them properly, hot car trunks, etc. etc. A cracked riser could be materials, and it could be because of prior abuse. It's a tough call to make...and again I wouldn't want to be a bowyer in today's economy with lots and lots of used bows floating around with who knows what done to them...6 months old or not.

And you are right Chad, word gets around....but a few disgruntled folks thankfully won't ruin the reputation of a very good bowyer that has many hundreds of satisfied customers in their corner. I don't know of a bowyer who is out of business because they didn't warranty every claim that came through...anyone?

I do know of multiple who don't build anymore (or at least don't sell on Tradgang) because they are flat out crooks, not because of a few customers who may have an axe to grind for one reason or another...but those guys don't last long outside their own little circles anyway. But that's another story.

QuoteThe reality also is that sometimes customers abuse bows: shoot super light arrows, don't string them properly, hot car trunks, etc. etc.

Sure that can happen--word gets around about those people too, and a bowyer should be able to tell if a delamination or crack was due to a dry-fire or a dry glue joint.  When you have gravel imbedded in the riser and the customer says "I don't know what happened, it just broke" it wouldn't be too smart to take that person's word for it. You can be courteous without being stupid.  In my experience, the scammer backs off immediately once you call their bluff.

One of the best owners in the business (now retired) once told me about his bows "If it doesn't have tire tracks on it, we'll take care of it".  That's customer service, and it kept him piled up with orders for something like 40 years, until he retired.

My experience, although limited to only 15 or so years as a retailer, is the scam artists are few and far between.  I can think of as many scam bowyers as I can scam customers--maybe more.  I can only think of one that is still in business, and it looks to be a sinking ship (as it should be, IMO).

Like you noted, there's a lot of competition out there.  Who are customers more likely to go to--someone who is confident enough in their work to warranty it regardless if it changes hands, or if it changes hands the warranty is immediately null and  void?  The bowyer is money ahead in the long run by taking care of the customer under even questionable circumstances, even if the bow changes hands.  My opinion of course.

Again, I don't know the details of the particular case mentioned.  I don't know the guy that started the thread, I don't know who built the bow, and I don't know the circumstances.  Just stating a case in general.

Chad, I can't help being confused by your last port. Your use of the words reality and technically are in the wrong spots. If you substitute "in reality" where technically is than you would be right. I say this because a warranty is a real, defenseable,lawful document not a technicality! The only question I still have a problem with: is the guy who sold him the bow technically responsible, or is just the bowyer. You can't have both ways because I say the previous owner may have some liability here, if he knew anything. I have no horse in this race but wonder about motives of some.  :archer:

Bob, Recalls happen for a reason, If you found that something you did was causing bows to fail, why should it matter who owns it? I remember you posting a problem you were having and offered to fix it. Was that only if the bow was with the first owner?

A not-so-hypothetical example: Let's say you design a 52" bow specifically to maximize the draw length of those with 27" or under draw lengths. Let's say you sell 150 of those bows directly to customers who order from you. Over time, for whatever reason, let's say 25 of them end up in the hands of owners who draw 28+". The bows start failing over time...some quickly (for those guys with 30" draws), some longer but all 25 fail. 25 guys come back to the bowyer and all want their bows replaced or repaired for free. Bowyer has a 100% policy prior to this, so either the bowyer chooses not to honor all the claims or he's waaay out of pocket to the point where he's going to have to change it anyway. Danged if you do, danged if you don't. That's not a bad bowyer, that's not a bad design, that's simply an uninformed customer of the 2nd or 3rd or whatever hand bow.

With such a relatively small # of custom bowyers out there and such a very large # of customers statistically there will be a lot more abused bows than bad bowyers...from the previous admission that "word gets around". That happens a lot faster and reaches a lot more ears about the 50 bowyers that it does with the 50,000+ customers.

Again, I don't know it that's the case on this one or not, but in general it's irresponsible to vilify any bowyer over a relatively small number of denied warranty claims or even unhappy customers (relative to the number of bows he has in circulation).

Maybe technically isn't the proper term--perhaps "legally" or something similar would be better?

Either way, the reality is : who expects a practically new bow to crack?  You don't buy a practically new truck and expect the engine to blow.  On the other hand, if the bow (or the truck) is several years old, you know up front that a problem is a possibility.  That was my point.

The guy that sold him the bow may have known about the problem, might have even caused it, but is he responsible?  Legally, I'd say not--couldn't prove it if he did know anything, and I'm assuming he didn't offer a warranty.  Morally, I'd say yes.

This is where, IMO, the bowyer should step up.  Send him the bow, and if after inspection he determines (honestly of course) that the failure is likely due to moisture content, a dry glue joint, or anything else that could be considered a material or workmanship failure then the bow should be fixed or replaced free of charge.  If it's obvious the bow was abused, then the bowyer should be able to determine that and let the fellow know the details, so he can try to hash it out with the seller.

No horse in this race for me either, I just hate to see someone get a raw deal--it's a blight on all of us that are in this business.  I do have a bit of experience to base my opinions on--15 or so years with a retail archery business,which includes selling hundreds of bows and dealing with some warranty work--half or more of it taken care of even though it was outside the warranty.  I even got one bow fixed for $50 when the bowyer wanted $250 for the same repair--and it was obviously the bowyer's mistake!  I did buy the bow second-hand though, so no warranty.

Like I said, I think I can name as many or more con bowyers I've learned of over the years than I can think of customers (thousands upon thousands) that have  tried to con me.  Almost all of them have been exposed and/or are out of business.

If a scenario like the one JC presented were to ever happen, to me it's a simple answer.  Overdrawing a bow = abuse, and shouldn't be covered.  Ignorance is no excuse.

What do you do when a bowyer who has a following puts the screws to you for $1,000?  Should it depend on the people that like him?  Should you just be quiet about it, because the guy has a lot of people that really like him that are well known, or would you feel obligated to warn your fellow archer lest they be the next victim?  

Say you remain quiet, but then start learning there's a whole lot of folks just like you out there.  Now what?

What percentage of customers is a bowyer (or any business owner) allowed to cheat before it can be made public?  1/1000?  1/100?  1/10?

Quote...it's irresponsible to vilify any bowyer over a relatively small number of denied warranty claims or even unhappy customers (relative to the number of bows he has in circulation).  

I just can't agree with that, at least if I'm reading it right.  Chek-Mate has literally thousands upon thousands of happy customers and bows in circulation.  I not only shoot their bows, I have an intimate business relationship with them and consider Marc (the bowyer) to be a good friend.

That being said, if I were to find out he had gotten into the habit of intentionally cheating customers--1 out of 10 or 1 out of 10,000--I'd take my money elsewhere, and I'd warn everyone I could about it.

On the flip side, if he thought I was doing the same, he'd yank my dealer status so fast it would make my head swim.  

Maybe I just misunderstood your post?

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
If a scenario like the one JC presented were to ever happen, to me it's a simple answer.  Overdrawing a bow = abuse, and shouldn't be covered.  Ignorance is no excuse.

Exactly Chad. And it has happened, more than once with more than one bowyer I know.

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
Wat do you do when a bowyer who has a following puts the screws to you for $1,000?  Should it depend on the people that like him?  Should you just be quiet about it, because the guy has a lot of people that really like him that are well known, or would you feel obligated to warn your fellow archer lest they be the next victim?  

Say you remain quiet, but then start learning there's a whole lot of folks just like you out there.  Now what?

What percentage of customers is a bowyer (or any business owner) allowed to cheat before it can be made public?  1/1000?  1/100?  1/10?

I certainly wouldn't remain quiet; by word of mouth take every opportunity to warn those that ASK about said bowyer. I wouldn't go whining about it in "public", and I wouldn't do it in private unless the conversation came up specifically. That's what they call "class" where I come from.  Simply because "made public" is a black hole.

What if the situation you present is compounded by a bunch of guys who really don't know the whole story, the real entire story from both sides, who don't care to hear the other side of the coin because they have their mind made up? Now you've got a bunch of "public" bashing by one group with an axe to grind. In my opinion, "Public" ridicule of the bowyer would have to happen through a 3rd party...presented enough evidence of dubious business practices and something will happen. That happens on Tradgang through admin, in the real world through the better business bureau, and in the courts of law, typically in small claims court. Otherwise, there is no way to know if it's 10 guys with a real problem, or one that has whipped 9 more into a fury without all the facts known by everyone who reads their "public" statements.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Warranty is the warranty and that is the way it is, Original Owner Only..
Which really isn't a problem being we are not taking any new customers for custom bows and plan on taking care of current customer for years to come. So I guess there is one less custom bowyer you all have to choose from. It's a shame and you will lose more, most will get tired of this type logic and find there is an easier way to make a living. Some should not be in business anyway, No Liability  insurance and don't pay there Fed Ex. Taxes.

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:

QuoteThat being said, if I were to find out he had gotten into the habit of intentionally cheating customers--1 out of 10 or 1 out of 10,000--I'd take my money elsewhere, and I'd warn everyone I could about it.  [/b]

Yep, if I had proof and knew for certain both sides of the story and it was plain cut and dry cheating, I agree completely. I would warn everyone that asked about them by word of mouth. Seldom however are all the facts in before folks jump to conclusions.

And if they pulled your dealership, would or should they "publicly" proclaim you are no longer a dealer and they did so because you are crooked? I think not. I'll bet they've got too much class for that.

Quotein the real world through the better business bureau, and in the courts of law, typically in small claims court.

It ain't that easy.  I have a friend, who is in law enforcement, who got a raw deal not too long ago.  State laws make a big  difference in what you can or can't do, and going across state lines even further complicates it.  In his case, he's stuck--for now anyway.  Good thing for him is, as a LEO, he has other means.

I guess I just have no class.  I won't wait for 'ol Joe to come up to me and ask "what do you know about this specific bow?"  I've been in situations where I asked "Why didn't you tell me that sooner?????"--could have saved me a lot of money, headache, and even heartache.  I see it as a "Do unto others" situation.  I'd want to be warned without having to go down the line asking every single individual.  If Joe gets on a message board and says "Can anyone tell me about this bow", I'm most likely going to tell them just what I know.  If it's someone I know, I'll definately tell them--via pm if it's not board-appropriate.

I understand where message boards have a fine line to walk.  I've helped moderate on one since before TG came into existence.  We tend to let all the good word in, and keep all the bad experiences out.  That's not giving folks anywhere near "both sides of the story", but I know you really don't have much choice.  

On the other hand, individuals can share experiences in private--IMO you should give your fellow archer a "heads-up" when you learn they could be making a very expensive mistake.

I also understand agendas.  That's when it's up to the idividual to separate the wheat from the chaff.  If they care about the purchase, they will do a little homework.  It's usually not that hard to check someone out--both the bowyer, and the people giving advice.

Again though, I'm not referring to this specific incident--I still don't know squat about it, who is involved, etc.  Just putting out my opinion, based on my experience.

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
It ain't that easy.  I have a friend, who is in law enforcement, who got a raw deal not too long ago.  State laws make a big  difference in what you can or can't do, and going across state lines even further complicates it.  In his case, he's stuck--for now anyway.  Good thing for him is, as a LEO, he has other means.

That's interesting, I wouldn't have guessed an LEO would have had that much problem...I know I haven't. If you did the transaction over the internet, and you have evidence, presenting the evidence to the internet fraud department of the local LEO of the crook has tended to do very well for me. Paying by postal money order and having it shipped by post is even better...Postal inspectors get it done...at least from my experience.


If Joe gets on a message board and says "Can anyone tell me about this bow", I'm most likely going to tell them just what I know.  If it's someone I know, I'll definately tell them--via pm if it's not board-appropriate. Seems to me like you are saying exactly the same thing I did, with just as much class as I think possible. The guy asked about the bow or bowyer specifically, you pm'd him...same thing I would. But you didn't start a post talking bad about the bowyer and you didn't post a public response bashing the bowyer, you did it privately. Or am I misunderstanding?

On the other hand, individuals can share experiences in private--IMO you should give your fellow archer a "heads-up" when you learn they could be making a very expensive mistake. Absolutely...and again, I thought that's what I said.

If they care about the purchase, they will do a little homework.  It's usually not that hard to check someone out--both the bowyer, and the people giving advice. Again we agree.

I still don't know squat about it, who is involved, etc.  Just putting out my opinion, based on my experience. Hey look, we agree again!   :biglaugh:

Ok--whew--I just misunderstood. My bad.

No bad, just different margins on the same page. Communicating about things folks are passionate about is often not the easiest thing to do.

I agree w/ Jacob,a warranty is a warranty & should be for the bow regardless of who owns it,IMO.Any bowyer worth their salt would stand behind that,not hide behind a play of words!As far as buying used for the sake of cost I disagree, I for one think it's ludicrous to wait on a list 1-2 yrs. & maybe more for a bow. Lets face it you can't tell me these "highend' bowyers can't put out at least 2 bows a wk.if not more! Do the math their making a pretty good living.Bottom line,stand behind your product! if not for your customers where would you be.

Great thread! Thanks to everyone who participated. This only proves to me the concept of ; we may not agree, but we can dicuss it rationally. Thanks again.   :archer:  


"An open mind is the doorway to Knowledge"....Me

Warranty is a warranty...and if the bowyer clearly says for original purchaser only, that's the warranty. No "play on words", but the words are specific for a reason. If a bowyer's warranty doesn't specify, then yes, they should warranty the bow no questions asked, indefinitely. Seen a warranty lately with no stipulations? I know I haven't.

If you don't want to wait, by all means take your money somewhere else. Some are willing to wait to get exactly what they want, hence the "custom" in custom bow. And they are not bitter about the wait, because everything comes at a price...you want a specific way, you'll have to wait in line like everyone else.

Show me a rich bowyer. None of them are doing it to get rich...make a living yes, but they aren't rolling in it by any means.

Is the customer the guy who originally bought the bow, or every single guy that has owned the bow? How is a bowyer to know how many idiots abusing the bow there were between the original purchaser and the poor innocent guy at the end of the bow's life who's stuck with a blown bow?

So Joe, let me get this right,original owner is not a play of words to protect the bowyer? when this bow is only 6mos. old? regardless, stand behind your product! & in your post "how many "Idiots" bought this bow".Are you saying that people buying used are idiots? nows who's playing w/ words? & your a moderater? It's called tunnel vision. A couple K or more a week? I'd say thats pretty good in these economic times

1) No it's not a "play on words", the words are there for a reason and specific. The bowyer is not saying anything unclear like "it's warranted for a little while"...ambiguous and meaningless. "For the original purchaser" is clear as crystal and not a "play" at all.

2) Read carefully, I said "idiots abusing the bow". The implication is "guys abusing the bow are idiots" when read in context and in it's entirety. Tunnel vision is wanting to read something into a post that isn't there.

3) So you know a bowyer clearing a couple of K a week...after income taxes (which he pays double since he's self employed), after fed taxes (which he pays because it's tied to hunting), after liability insurance (which he carries to protect himself from accidents caused either by his own workmanship/materials or improper customer care), rent or mortgage for his space, tool/equipment costs, materials, and most of all time? Which one? I'm pretty close to 3, two that run with the big dogs, and they ain't making that for sure.

I have bought plenty of used bows, didn't abuse them but I bought them used my own risk; informed and aware of the warranty if any. If something happened (and I've had a few of those) I went humbly and respectfully to the bowyer, asking if there was anything he could do to help me out. I've gotten more than I expected with that approach.

A bowyers reputation is far more important than his warranty any day.
Once you start dealing with paper and policies and not people you are going to get &^^%$#!

Very well said Joe. I'm not sure of the mentality of anyone crying about the price of a bow being to high, getting a thread going maybe hoping to get the prices lowered????It Does work on some in the hobby,,, not the business. Some warrantee bows for a year may build 20 a year and pay nothing but materials,14 month no problem I don't have anything else to do anyway.Try taking you car in with 40K on it that has a 36K warrantee, Good Luck..
Shame on anyone that even thinks they are entitled to warranty work on a custom bow that was not built strictly for them.Like buying a pair of custom made boots on -bay wearing them for a week and decide they don't fit and call the builder and want him to change the size to fit you   Free.......... and them get a little nasty with him also, Good luck with your boots that fit the origional owner perfect....

To all of those out there who feel that the bowyer ought to honor his warrant to a 2nd or 3rd buyer irregardless I pose this question; if you bought a set of tires off your buddy who just wrecked his car but didnot hurt the tires and they are still under warranty, would you go to the dealer if you had a problem?

QuoteOriginally posted by Bowbldr:
Try taking you car in with 40K on it that has a 36K warrantee, Good Luck..

So Bob, what if your "Car" only has 20K on it? It still under the Manufactures warranty? They Fix it.....The Bottom line is if a Boyer knows he made a mistake when building a bow/bows, and ships them with this flaw should he not fix them? He knows theres a problem, what should he do? Say nothing and hope nothing goes wrong? Only fix the ones that are still with the first owner? It was a manufacturing flaw, no ones fault but the boyer. In today's world it's called a "Recall".

Could we see a picture of said damage?  H

Crow...if there was a manufacturer defect..the answer would be yes...if the tires were worn badly from my buddy not rotating..i'd give him some grief too..lol..

Most new cars have a transferable Warranty, Most bowyer do not. Bottom line is if your bowyer made a mistake and ships it to you anyway, you need a new bowyer. If he knows there is a problem you get it corrected before you ship anymore bows..... Manufactoring flaws should never leave the shop...What most don't know is wood, it can be perfect for 6 months and then develope a crack or grain lines show up. Most of the time doesn't hurt the strength of the bow, sometimes it might.and until it adjusts to your area, this can happen . And then you call your bowyer and he can sand and refinish.
Recalls would be for a bad batch of glue or glass, None of which rarely happens. A dry joint will not last past tillering in the shop.

Quoteif you bought a set of tires off your buddy who just wrecked his car but did not hurt the tires and they are still under warranty, would you go to the dealer if you had a problem?  

From a wreck?  Probably wouldn't buy them to begin with.  Now, if the buddy bought them, drove them a few hundred miles, then decided he just didn't like them, I would.  If the tread flew off before I had 1,000 miles on them, then yes--I'd be asking the dealer for replacements, and I think I'd get them.

I already said, if it was a case where there was no obvious abuse, I'd replace the bow.  I've done it.  I've helped people get bows replaced that didn't buy them through me to begin with.  Chek-Mate was the one that took the big hit--it didn't cost me much money, mostly time and phone calls--but they take care of their customers.

They do that not because they have to or are held to it by their warranty, just because they feel it's the right thing to do.

Thanks Bob for your input....

Chad & Mark, amen brother. TD out.

interesting thread

I don't feel it's fair to expect a bowyer to honor a warranty that does not exist. Most bowyers clearly state that their warranty is for the original owner or buyer and if you bought it from the original you bought it without a warranty. Most will take care of problems with someone who is not the original owner and that is to their credit but it should not be expected.

First, I don't think cars are a realistic analogy. Do you know how much profit a car maker makes on a car? They are a monstrous corporation, they build the warranty costs into every single unit...over hundreds of thousands of units. They also have residual and alternate income related to the sold vehicles that helps offset the warranty costs. We are also talking about a distinct difference in materials, production methods, technology etc. that play a huge role in the warranty process. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

Since Chad mentioned Checkmate, Checkmate's warranty states 2 years...clear. They have no stipulations other than that...but there is still a stipulation. But that does not make them any more or less noble than any bowyer who clearly states his own terms. If I bought a used Checkmate 2nd hand (or more) and it failed in less than 2 years, I would EXPECT a new bow (or free repair) because of their warranty. But if another bowyer offered a 5 year warranty, I would be foolish to expect them to match it. They might for whatever reasons at the time but they certainly wouldn't do it every time for every customer or that would not have their 2 year stipulation. The problem is not with bowyers adhering to their clearly stated warranty but with some people who expect a bowyer to adhere to someone else's warranty.  If you don't like the stipulations of a bowyer's warranty, don't buy the bow. But if he clearly states his terms and sticks to them, he's no more or less moral than someone with different terms.

I'll also differentiate "customers" from those that simply buy bows 2nd hand (or 3rd,4th etc). Is a bowyer's customer the guy who originally ordered the bow or the guy who bought the bow from the guy who originally bought the bow? Where do you draw the line? Again, if a bowyer clearly states where he draws the line and adheres to it, there is no morality/amorality to the line he chooses. There are PLENTY of bowyers out there with stipulations on their warranties (show me one that doesn't) and they still have a backlog of customers and most a SERIOUS backlog of return customers. Obviously, there are much more important things to many customers than the warranty stipulations that are the minor differences between bowyers.

QuoteOriginally posted by JC: Warranty is a warranty...and if the bowyer clearly says for original purchaser only, that's the warranty. No "play on words",

Absolutely right.The original owner has a contract with the bowyer; nobody else does.  Anything the bowyer chooses to do is a matter of his discretion.

I know of a number of bowyers who will go out of their way to help anyone who has one of their bows, but they do it because they're good people, not because the warranty, as above, requires them to.  

And, in my rarely humble opinion, there's nothing unfair, immoral, or even fattening, about announcing the rules by which the bowyer works in advance and then operating by them.  That's the essence of fairness - the rules are known in advance and everyone operates by them.  

But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

Actually the CM warranty is 2 years against defects in materials and/or workmanship, after that it's at the descretion of CM...technically it's for the original buyer, but I've never known of them sticking strictly to it if someone had a problem.

Very interesting post. And in the end I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one.

Bottom line is... it was a "second hand" bow and Bowyer clearly states warranty is to "Origional Owner".

If you want to have a warranty "Buy New"....if your trying to save some $ by buying used, read the Bowyers warranty           :readit:          and then decide to "Buy or Not too Buy".  The choice is always the buyers, and he should be aware of the consequences should they arrive.    

Try  asking the guy your buying "used" from if he'll stand behind it for a given period of time.[ other than the breif inspection period most of us sellers or traders give]           :wavey:

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
Actually the CM warranty is 2 years against defects in materials and/or workmanship, after that it's at the descretion of CM...technically it's for the original buyer, but I've never known of them sticking strictly to it if someone had a problem.

I certainly wouldn't expect them to stick to "it's for the original buyer" since the warranty on your page doesn't mention anything about that. If I had a mat/work problem before the 2 year mark and I was not the original owner, it would be expected for them to take care of it because of the stated warranty. I'm sure they do the same as all other good bowyers, adhere to their warranty as a minimum and everything else is at their discretion on a case by case basis.

Most all bowyers are willing to work with owners of used bows, but they shouldn't be expected to do it for free if their warranty says otherwise. And with the right approach and attitude, I've found what they charge for work on their bows outside of the warranty period is exceptionally fair.

Boy, there are a lot of different perspectives out there. I can see more than a few bowyers will probably be clarifing their warranties after following this thread.  If I sold a bow to a customer and they leant it to their buddy, he shot it and it broke, I'd still fix it.  If he sold it to his buddy, how much difference is there?  If it is still within the warranty period, I think the repair is "warranted". Those it sounds like the problem is within the wood (a natural product) and may be no fault of the bowyer, just bad luck, I think it'd be good business to make it right.  
  Tell you what Easyup, send me the bow, if I can't repair it (at no charge), I'll build you a Stalker Recurve out of similar wood for no charge.  Only problem, for you, is I don't build one piece bows, you'd have to suffer with a take down.  Oh, and I'd send you back the other as well.

You custom build a 54" bow for a man or woman max. draw 26", Lets his buddy 32" shoot the bow? and blows it up, your going to replace it free ???? Don't quit your day job. That thinking will put you out of the bow business.
  Truth is most bowyer that build bows for a living will work with 2nd and 3rd owners. Depending on there attitude when talking with the bowyer. Be a Demanding A$$, Warranty is the Warranty fix it yourself... Chances are Not being an A$$ and demanding you will get it fixed, not free but at a better price and sometimes shipping only..
  I've been building Custom bows for over 20 years now and plan on doing the same until the Lord tells me it time to go. I have many customers that will never have a problem getting there bows worked on, Way past there 2 year warranty, Not free. Most of my customers understand you have to charge to stay in business.

Interesting thread.  I would never expect a bowyer to make a free repair on a bow I bought second hand, no matter how old it is.  I was not the bowyers customer.  I did nothing to compensate the bowyer for his time and craftsmanship. I buy used bows to save time and fit my budget.  I am accepting the risk and fully understand "let the buyer beware".  I do appreciate the responses from dealers on this issue. Tradgang is an amazing place with a bunch of amazing people.

isnt ebony prone to crack if it hasnt been dried completely before finishing? seems like ive read alot of problems with ebony as a riser wood...maybe the wood wasnt dry enough before it was sealed...

All Recurves have a full replacement cost warranty for the first year, handles for two years.  A fifty percent replacement cost for limbs during their second year.  Damage to limbs from dry firing or improper stringing is not covered.  

And he will fix other bowyer bows for free or he will build you his bow for free and send you the old bow back to boot.    Sounds like a plan, Not a business plan..
 This is one of the main reason a full time bowyer is reluctant about 2nd and 3rd owners. WHO HAS DONE WHAT TO THE BOW????? Wife said to get a Vasectomy or else... Real Doctor want $2500 and your wife said she could do it FREE. No warranty either way,,, so which way do you go?????  :bigsmyl:

Can y'all not get that if the warranty states it is good to the original buyer only then the second buyer has no warranty.  Every other remedy is a matter of opinion. If I bought a bow second hand I would contact the bowyer and try to work out what is fair for both of us. He works for a living just like me and I don't like doing things for free that I am not obligated too. I have had a couple bows crack and no troubles with the bowyers, but I was in my warranty limitations.  It does not matter what we think is right or wrong when we agree to certain stipulations, and when we buy a used bow we agree to have no warranty per the manufacturers specs. Everyone should know that the majority of trad bow makers warranty their products to the original purchaser.

This happened with fly rods some years ago. Lifetime warranties came out, and soon after rod prices doubled. Sure it is nice to have a fly rod shut in a car door and get It replaced for free, but if there was not this warranty I could buy 2 for the same price and have a backup. These warranties are built into the cost. You get what you pay for, and they are all to the original purchaser. A used rod is worth a lot more if it has not had the warranty card filled out and can be passed to the new owner.  I am all for lowering the price and having say a six month or a year warranty.

Bottom line you pay more for new and you get more via a warranty. You also have to pay the 11 percent fed excise tax that you don't pay the second time around.  To answer the original post question, Dan Tolke is the only one I know of. There may be more, but I am sure most will repair or fix anything out of warranty at a modest price.

Ebony, Gaboon is probably the most likely to develope cracks, Macasser Ebony next. There has been a shortage of Macasser for a couple years now, You can get wet stuff and your looking at 2 years min. air drying, it need to be Maximum 12%
And at 12% it can stll develope cracks especially in drier areas of the country. Your Bowyer will be able to refinish the bow once it has stabilized in your area, with no structural problem at all.

Cracks can also develope in all woods no matter how dry they are, ITS WOOD. We check all of our woods with a moisture meter before we use it, anything over 12% is stacked  until it is 12% or less with a new clean cut to fresh wood.
2 different woods glued together will change at different rate also making a line that you can feel, also not hurt the strength at all. We do have risers that I warranty 100% free from ever cracking or breaking of any kinda....Metal...

QuoteI certainly wouldn't expect them to stick to "it's for the original buyer" since the warranty on your page doesn't mention anything about that. If I had a mat/work problem before the 2 year mark and I was not the original owner, it would be expected for them to take care of it because of the stated warranty.

Not to veer from the topic, but why would you expect them to honor my typo?  That's not CM's site, it's mine--if anything, it's my responsibility.  I've got a lot of typos, misprints, and flat-out goofs since I had my site reworked, and haven't had a chance to address nearly all of them.  Thanks for bringing that one to my attention.  I'm currently having to reside in a different state due to sickness in the family, but will get that taken care of as soon as I get time to discuss it with my webmaster.

What if another CM dealer has the correct warranty stated?  What if a dealer doesn't state anything?  Going by the logic presented, wouldn't it be up the buyer to do their homework and find out direct from CM what the warranty is?

Due to recent posts, even someone as slow as me can put 2 and 2 together and see that some of replies and opinions are far from unbiased--unlike mine and several others who didn't have a clue who was involved.

Now that I figured some of it out, I think I'll step out of it, except to correct any mistakes about CM or something I've said.

I agree with Gene.

Matt

This should help, Easyup bought a Morrison Riser 2nd hand. I'm pretty sure he lives in Arizona, It's dry there and I sure it has dried more and opened up grain or has developed a crack. I offered to fix it for a nominal fee, but we couldn't come to an agreement.

I real think this thread has helped a lot of people realize they need to check warranties and not to expect anything more than what is in that warranty, being sincere and not demanding will help in getting you problem fixed. Otherwise you will probably have to fix it your self.

Sorry Chad, I misunderstood. It seemed as if the website for Checkmate Bows was recurves.com and just assumed that was THE website for Checkmate. Maybe there should be a link to their actual website. But, if yours is the website that represents them, and they allow and have approved that representation, I would expect them to honor it.

Yes it would be up to the purchaser to do their homework but in this case, I did. I googled Checkmate bows and got recurves.com as Checkmate bows...at the top of the page it says "Checkmate Bows", not Chad's bowsite or whatever other name. The sight looks like it is THE site for Checkmate bows. Until you just said that, I honestly thought it was their site. So if I were a new buyer and looking for Checkmate, I would have thought I had found their website and their warranty is clearly stated there. So if there were a warranty claim that went awry because of your posted warranty, I wouldn't care who honored it, as long as someone did for the Checkmate Bow. I would have assumed it would be Checkmate themselves since they work through you the dealer.

Sorry to hear about your family, I pray everything works out for you and them.

I'm not sure about others being biased or you and several others being unbiased...I gave my opinion as what I believe with warranties in general. Whether that's Bob's bows, Checkmate Bows, Black Widow, or who ever...the warranty is what's stated. Nothing more, nothing less. Not everyone sees that and not everyone believes that a bowyer is entitled to his own warranty, with whatever stipulations he decides to make. One warranty being different than another does not make one bowyer "better" or more honorable than the other. It's business and as long as they adhere to their clearly stated warranty, they are all equally good and honorable.

I think the end result is, check the warranty if you are buying any bow, used or not.  If you have questions before buying a bow, it's always best to talk to the bowyer directly. Be an informed consumer and you can't be a victim.

That said, I think those that disagree will continue to disagree...the discussion was an informative one and all parties involved did a good job of carrying on the discussion without turning it into something that would get pulled. I think we have run it's course and if anything further needs to be discussed I think it is best done in private.

Topic reopened because Chad feels I closed it prematurely without allowing him to discuss the wording on his website (note, not Checkmate's website).

Chad, the floor is yours.

Like I said, when I figured out more on who the discussion was about, I got out--except to correct any misinformation about CM.

 

QuoteIt seemed as if the website for Checkmate Bows was recurves.com and just assumed that was THE website for Checkmate. Maybe there should be a link to their actual website. But, if yours is the website that represents them, and they allow and have approved that representation, I would expect them to honor it.

I can understand getting that impression at a glance, but it seems obvious to me that, if you read over my site, I'm not the bowyer.  I talk about the bowyer (Marc) and the company in third person--not like it's me.  CM has never had a website--might one day, but they don't at this moment.  My site represents MY business--CM doesn't pay for it, and as long as I keep it honest they don't much care about what it says--the same as with any other dealer.


 

QuoteYes it would be up to the purchaser to do their homework but in this case, I did. I googled Checkmate bows and got recurves.com as Checkmate bows...at the top of the page it says "Checkmate Bows",...  

Ok, I just "Googled" the term "Chek-Mate Bows" and just on the first page it lists no less than 5 dealers (I think one or two are former dealers), including Git-R-Done, who is also a TG sponsor.

 

QuoteI would have thought I had found their website and their warranty is clearly stated there.  

On the FAQ page?  Like I told you, my site needs a lot of work--I don't think I even have a direct link to the warranty.  It's worded clearly,but it's in a short answer version and you have to hunt to find it. I include a detailed version when I ship the bows.  I'll review it when I get home and probably revise it due to this thread, and I plan to add a detailed version to my site also.

 

QuoteSo if there were a warranty claim that went awry because of your posted warranty, I wouldn't care who honored it, as long as someone did for the Checkmate Bow. I would have assumed it would be Checkmate themselves since they work through you the dealer.  

I think "assumptions" are what got this whole mess started to begin with--a guy assumed that since his bow was nearly new, it would get fixed for free.

I'm not "the" dealer, I'm "a" dealer.  The following information is also on my site (there's a link at the bottom of each and every page):

"Typographical errors will not be honored and are the responsibility of the purchaser."

CM shouldn't be held liable because I goofed or because you didn't read the disclaimer--but that's never been a problem, because they go above and beyond on warranty work.

I appreciate the opportunity to straighten that out.

Chek-Mate and Martin have both repaired 2nd hand bows for me, FREE OF CHARGE and HAPPY to do it!  

Bought a beautiful used Chek-Mate Crusader that promptly developed a small riser crack due to the change in wood moisture as will happen with any bow as mentioned above. Called Chad (again, I bought it used from another party) to see if I should be concerned about it as it was very small, prompt response from Chad was "send it to bowyer, they insist!"  All I was out was shipping one way and basically got a new bow a few weeks later!

In the case of a Martin Stick, the tip was damaged while being shipped from the seller to me.  They did not even blink when I asked if they could repair it for me, I offered to pay but they flat out refused.

Warranties are one thing, proof in the pudding is another.  That is just some of my direct experience with such issues and you can bet I'd recommend these two companies to everybody I know, all day long!
   :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by LBR: I can understand getting that impression at a glance  

Yep, that's all I did...glance...saw the banner at the top in big letters that says "Check-mate bows".

 

QuoteOk, I just "Googled" the term "Chek-Mate Bows" and just on the first page it lists no less than 5 dealers (I think one or two are former dealers), including Git-R-Done, who is also a TG sponsor.

Google it without the hypen....yours is the first one and the only one on the first page of that search. Lemme know if you get something different.

 

QuoteOn the FAQ page?  Like I told you, my site needs a lot of work--I don't think I even have a direct link to the warranty.  It's worded clearly,but it's in a short answer version and you have to hunt to find it. I include a detailed version when I ship the bows.  I'll review it when I get home and probably revise it due to this thread, and I plan to add a detailed version to my site also.

Yep, You don't have a direct link to the warranty, it's right there on the FAQ. I think a detailed version would be a great idea, just to clarify things for your potential customers. I wasn't saying anything about your site needing or not needing work, only reporting what you said on your site.

 

QuoteI think "assumptions" are what got this whole mess started to begin with--a guy assumed that since his bow was nearly new, it would get fixed for free.

No what got this whole mess started was someone not reading the bowyer's warranty. I read the warranty on your page, that's all I was going by. If someone who didn't know checkmate from adam, which I don't, saw this big banner at the top that said "Check-mate bows" after googling checkmate bows, I think it would be a very fair and reasonable assumption to come to the conclusion it was Check-mate's site or at least authorized by Check-mate and any warranty info there would be their warranty because it was represented as such.

 

QuoteI am not "the" dealer, I'm "a" dealer.

Now that you've said it, that's clear.

 

QuoteThe following information is also on my site (there's a link at the bottom of each and every page): "Typographical errors will not be honored and are the responsibility of the purchaser."

Again, I didn't scroll down, on a 15" laptop that lower area doesn't show up...I clicked on faq's on the left and clearly saw Warranty on the middle of the page. Personally, I don't think leaving out a clause in the warranty is a typo...a "5" instead of a "6" is, but an entire phrase was left out. I'm sure not intentionally, and you did clear up what their warranty actually is, but I don't think that could be considered a "typo" (your mileage varies).  Obviously, sometimes folks are going to have different definitions of words and their applications. Doesn't make much difference now since you're changing it to the actual warranty.

 

QuoteCM shouldn't be held liable because I goofed or because you didn't read the disclaimer--but that's never been a problem, because they go above and beyond on warranty work.

Now that we know your site is the official Check-mate one, that's clear...it wasn't before you said it. If they always go above and beyond on their current warranty, they should consider changing it to what they actually do...if it's above and beyond the current (which is a pretty good warranty already) it would be an even better  selling point than they have now.

 

QuoteI appreciate the opportunity to straighten that out.

No problem, it's been a good discussion that I think has opened a lot of people's eyes where warranties are concerned.

So what have we learned from this post?

1. Be sure you read the boyers warranty and understand it.

2. Some boyers are willing to fix manufacturing defects/flaws even if the bow is with the 2nd or 3rd owner. (Note. still under the time line of the original warranty and no abuse is found).

3. Some boyers will only repair manufacturing defects/flaws with the Original owner.  This is stated in their Warranty.

4. When dealing with Boyers/customers Respect goes a long way....

5. When buying used, be ready to bite the bullet if something goes wrong with your bow.

In the end I can see both sides of the fence. I still feel that if a defect/flaw/workmanship is found before the Original warranty time is up it should be fixed no matter who owns the bow. NOTE if abuse or mishandling is found to be the cause then thats a different story. In the end it comes down to what THAT Boyers warranty states.

Mark

QuoteNow that we know your site is the official Check-mate one, that's clear  

There is no "official" Chek-Mate site..  :banghead:

QuoteGoogle it without the hypen....yours is the first one and the only one on the first page of that search. Lemme know if you get something different.

Only got two dealers that way (myself and one other).  I can't help it if someone misspells the company name......  :knothead:

I know there isn't an official CM site, you said that already....I said yours wasn't...and it's not. There we both repeated ourselves for nothing.    :D  

Here's what mine comes up with on the first page...your site is at the top, the others are forum references or software downloads.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/recurvhuntr/Stuff/Screenshot2010-04-29at62723PM.png)

Yep, my fault for misspelling it....bet no one has done that before looking for their bows    :rolleyes:

Just as a Reality Check, it wasn't a Check-Mate bow sold by Chad, that was the subject of this thread....It was a Morrison, correct?

Yes Bob posted about it.......

Chad sure seems to be catching a lot of flack just trying to explain how Check-Mate treats their customers.

I wasn't giving Chad flack...just pointed out the CM warranty he had on his site; he and I had a discussion from there. There was some confusion, at least on my part, about the warranty stated and CM's actual warranty. He wanted to clarify things he said just as I did. Looks like that's been done. I thought both he and I responded in an appropriate manner, as did everyone else from what I read.

Yep, it was a Morrison, as Bob said. However the discussion started with so many generalities much of what was said was in regards to warranties in general. Other than the CM confusion....which Chad cleared up.

I think Mark summed it up well in his post a few posts above...