First of all: I am a 3D shooter only. In the Netherlands, bowhunting is forbidden and illegal.
I started one year and a half ago with traditional archery. As on the most tournamants woodies only are permitted, I started with POC's. After a short while I started to build them myself. Did the upmost to end up with a FOC of 8,5% (9% is considered to be ideal) Ofcourse I took care that everything else fitted the bill too. I shoot very good with them. Won already some prices on some National tournaments.
Since they decided that for the Dutch National Traditional Championship carbon is allowed too, I started with carbon.
I shoot with a very light mildly R/D longbow, 38#@29",which is my drawlenght.
I ended up with Goldtip Entrada 15-35 Ultralights, which I bareshafted extensively till 35 yards. At their full lenght of 30" they needed a 125 grains fieldtip with the normal insert of 14.6 grains and a weight adapter of 20 grains. The adapters are very easily installed with the wrench, great system!
However, I ended up with a FOC of 20% and that's very close to EFOC.
I was worried how these arrows with their high FOC's would behave on tournaments, were we sometimes face distances of 70 yards, and were 50 yards is quite common.
I also heard that arrows with EFOCs would glance off less on targets and would be less sensitive for small branches and leaves.
I also changed my 16 strands FF string for a 6 strands ultra SBD string. Altogether I gained 20 fps in speed, shooting around 190 fps now. I also installed a bowquiver to reduce handshock and gain stability.
So far so good.
Than I started to practice with the carbons and to my astonishment, I didn't notice any difference in aiming. I expected the carbons with the EFOCs to hit the target lower, but I couldn't notice any difference. I shoot purely instinctive, split finger, and two eyes open, focusing on the target.I can even shoot my woodies and carbons through eachother, hitting the target every time, isn't that odd???
Even on long ranges like 50 yards or more, no difference! People warned me that these arrows wouldn't be suitable for longer ranges, but on the contrary! Last Sunday I shot my best 3D round ever with these arrows. We had to hit a target on 70 yards, it was a big bison. I shot it with my first arrow right in the kill! Amazing but true.
Of course I can notice the difference between the slower flying wood (170 fps) or the fast flying carbons (190 fps) Woodies are way more forgiving were carbons take advantage of every small form-mistake you make.
And now some myth-busting :readit: :
I shot three important tournaments with them and as glancing off the targets concerned, carbons with EFOC do it just as easy as woodies with a 9% FOC.
As for sensitivity for small branches and leaves: I can't notice any difference between my woodies and carbons. Carbons with EFOCs get deflected too!
As for deeper penetration: on an ethafoam 220 pack my carbons penetrate in the best case about 1/3 inch deeper. For accurate measurement I really shot the different arrows very close to each other at the same distances.
As for consequent shooting and deadly acurate shooting: carbons all the way, as long you don't make any mistakes in your form. In that case you will get punished hard.
As for staying in one piece: indeed, carbon won't break. However, when a carbon arrow hits a thick branche and bounces away, or bounnce off the target dissapearing with a speed of over the 190 fps in the woods, you'd be most luckey to find it back again. On the three tournaments I lost two carbons. I would say I loose as an average one woodie per tournament.
I know I won't be concerned for a too high FOC anymore, getting the right spine is much more important I think.
Just wanted to share this with my fellow-tradgangers.....
Very interesting.Thanks for the information.
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
And now some myth-busting :readit:
Well, I wouldn't call that "mythbusting" but rather, your opinion through your experiences. My mileage varies quite a bit from yours, in 3D and especially in hunting situations. I'm sure, at least from my experiences, that increased FOC has appreciable benefits.
Spine trumps all for sure. What is the weight difference between your woodies and carbons?
For real competition "not close range 3D" EFOC is a definate killer of tradjectory and extended range shooting.
Even in hunting I've yet to see any real advantages.
I shot what ever FOC the arrows I made came up with for more than thirty years then this EFOC craze came along,so I set up a set of arrow with around 25% EFOC.
The only thing that changed was my point on distance,where I lost around 15-20 yards.
You can imagine how that effected my 65-80 yard field archery shots.
For people that shoot beyond 20-30 yards,,,EFOC is a bad joke.
QuoteOriginally posted by Earthdog:
For people that shoot beyond 20-30 yards,,,EFOC is a bad joke.
As I previously posted, my mileage varies quite dramatically from that opinion. I shoot over 30 yards and EFOC is anything but a bad joke.
To each, his own.
Beyond 20-30 yds, EFOC certainly has is benefits from what I have experienced. Mostly regarding penetration, which is not really in question here, but I would assume that even the arrow staying on a true course despite wind and other factors that come into play at longer distances, EFOC would shine!
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Spine trumps all for sure. What is the weight difference between your woodies and carbons?
My woodies are 12GPP and my carbons 9.4
Since this forum is dedicated to hunting; the results that most on here are looking for pertain to a hunting situation where more than 50 or 70 yard shots are not taken. Your observations are interesting, but I'll stick with EFOC.
QuoteOriginally posted by Earthdog:
For people that shoot beyond 20-30 yards,,,EFOC is a bad joke.
As I posted before, my milage varies a lot!
"Even on long ranges like 50 yards or more, no difference! People warned me that these arrows wouldn't be suitable for longer ranges, but on the contrary! Last Sunday I shot my best 3D round ever with these arrows. We had to hit a target on 70 yards, it was a big bison. I shot it with my first arrow right in the kill! Amazing but true".
Dutchman: I have found the same to be true. We have a pond in back of our house and a game feeder. It's about 70 yards from my back door. I have killed two squirrels from that distance with EFOC arrrows. They work as well as lighter arrows at those distances....at least for you and me.
The ONLY way to get more FOC balance (while using the same shaft) is to add weight to the tip. Doing this requires a higher spined, or just shorter shaft.
More weight= less speed= more trajectory arc.
More arc= more margin for error the longer the shot is.
There is a point (and it's different for each and every bow) that a bow will impart the MAXIMUM amount of energy to the arrow. The only way to find this "magic spot"is chrono the arrow and keep track of the speed and the weight of the arrow.-then do some math..(Mass X Velocity works well for this. No reason to overcomplicate it)
FOC and EFOC setups...think of the balance point on your arrow as a "swivel" The closer the balance point is the the tip the more leverage the fletching has to do its job.
The best target shooting setups are altogether different from the best hunting setups. Don't get me wrong, you can target shoot with your hunting setups...and you should, BUT there IS a better setup for strictly target shooting than the best hunting setup.
Close range Hunting is all about efficiency and accuracy.
Target shooting only accuracy.
If I were target shooting only I'd use a light and fast setup that I'd never use on an animal, cept maybe a frog.
My rambling 2 cents
"FOC; highley overrated????" Not for hunting
in fact iv found benefits across the board
I have been using high FOC bordering on extreme FOC shafts since I learned how to taper wood arrows in the mid 90's, you could say I fell into it as a result of reducing spine by tapering a bunch of shafts.
I have made and used timber shafts with over 20% , they are a bunch of work with large tapered diameters, hardwood footings etc. Weighting up carbons is a lot easier and I have 1 set with 25% FOC and another set with 18%. I much prefer the 18% simply because the EFOC shafts being parallel are massively heavy and have a very high trajectory. This is not the fault of EFOC but of the arrows thick walled parallel design.
In my experience for 3d tournament or Bowhunting a matched, tapered set of arrows with 15% to 18% FOC works a treat and gives me better accuracy through cleaner arrow flight when combined with all the other factors a quality set of arrows has. Extreme FOC or low FOC means little on it's own as other folks have eluded to.
Lots of lessons in the past in regards to FOC and most other crazes that sweep archery. Look at the number of primitive cultures that use high to extreme FOC arrows, often in conjunction with extreme length by western standards. Look at the EFOC used by medieval arrows and crossbow bolts. Why would folks from ages past waste time and resources on survival tools that did not work
regards Jacko
Foc does NOT change trajectory. Only arrow speed, drag, and arrow momentum can change trajectory. EFOC can actually flatten your trajectory slightly by stabilizing the arrow faster so there is less drag. With higher foc you can also use smaller fletchings to get the same stability. The optimum foc is 50% not 9%. 50% foc is impossible to achieve because the shaft and feathers have to weight something but higher is better. The balance point of an arrow pulls it so changing the foc wouldn't change trajectory until we account for archers paradox and drag, then higher foc flattens trajectory. Lower foc does not help in any way. The reason people used to use low foc is to get a lighter arrow that still could tune. Now that isn't necessary that we have carbons even if you want a 2-3gpp arrow. Ol adcock is setting flight records with efoc for the reasons mentioned. Efoc is better for both short and long distance shooting. Efoc is more forgiving to form errors(like bigger fletchings except efoc flattens trajectory). If two arrows have equal length, fletching design, weight, and dynamic spine the one with more foc will recover faster, fly faster and flatter, and be more stable. These are the facts not opinions. They are based on physics. Saying that low foc shoots flatter than high foc is like saying the earth is flat.
"For people that shoot beyond 20-30 yards,,,EFOC is a bad joke." How is EFOC a "bad joke"? Efoc preforms better in every category than low foc.
Hmm,
I recently read an article where the ultra long range shooters are all going to UEFOC arrows and finding that they are shooting new world record distances with them. EFOC and UEFOC's benefits all depend on what your trying to do and how. I noticed your carbons with EFOC are lighter than your woods. Those carbons will drop off later than your woods will, Mass and velocity determine trajectory, not FOC.
Flying Dutchman,
You're right.
Ragnarok Forge, you're almost all correct. Inertia(mass), velocity, and drag determine trajectory(drag is only a factor when not shooting in a vacuum). Higher foc stabilizes an arrow faster(assuming equal dynamic spine) reducing drag and flattening trajectory. This is why people are shooting new flight records with Efoc and UEfoc.
Flying Dutchman,
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm reading this correctly, you're light carbons with EFOC shot the same point of impact as your heavier wood arrows with normal FOC? If so, I'm not surprised, but just wanted to make sure that I understood your post.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jesse Peltan:
Ragnarok Forge, you're almost all correct. Inertia(mass), velocity, and drag determine trajectory(drag is only a factor when not shooting in a vacuum). Higher foc stabilizes an arrow faster(assuming equal dynamic spine) reducing drag and flattening trajectory. This is why people are shooting new flight records with Efoc and UEfoc.
So you're saying high EFOC arrows will maintain their velocity longer? Or, in other words, they lose velocity at a slower rate?
FrankM that is correct assuming not shooting in a vacuum. Higher foc gives the fletchings more leverage. This allows the arrow to straighten out faster reducing drag. Less drag means the arrows maintain their velocity longer. This also assumes equally tuned arrows the only thing different being foc.
Not positive, but I think the Olympic shooters use very high foc arrows; this is the reason for the tungsten points they use on their skinny carbon arrows. They shoot pretty far, I think.
I think they do too ( olympics ). I think they all use sights too...I think.. Having sights would take out a lot of the negative aspects of having a very arced traj.
I didn't read anywhere in this post that someone thought efoc made a less flat shooting set up.
I did say that the only way to get efoc when using the same shafts is to add mass to the tip. More mass=less speed=more arc.
Flight arrows are altogether different from target arrows.
This thread was bad enough when comparing hunting and target setups. Now we want to throw flight set ups in.
It's sorta like comparing 4x4 trucks, sportcars, and motorcycles. They all have their place and are fun, but I'm not taking a Maserati Edo Corsa across the rubicon.
The thread started as (more or less) as a question of whether efoc had a place in trad archery target shooting. I assumed (we all know about that) that he was speaking of trad archery w/o sights.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
Hmm,
EFOC and UEFOC's benefits all depend on what you're trying to do and how.
Nicely said
this thread is NOT about trad bowhunting, as the topic starter admits, since he can't be a bowhunter in his country of residence. but it's worth nailing the lid on all this foc talk.
you can think and say what you like, but some amount of positive foc DOES play a role in arrow flight and performance. i/we new this back in the 60's but really didn't know why.
i believe that you really want a good 13-15% foc to help get the arrow on course as it jumps outta the bow. any more than that depends on your own testing. and it's true that tons of game were killed with 10% foc arras. but that's no excuse not to pursue something that one might find beneficial.
for foc to work properly, you just don't bulk up the front end without thinking about attaining a proper arrow gpp. read that again.
here's a classic example ...
a 50# stickbow shoots a 500 grain arrow with 125 grains at the front. that's a nice 10gpp arrow and it shoots fast and flat.
replace that point with one that's 200, 250 or even 300 grains and now the arrow becomes 11.5 to 13.5 gpp. that arrow may track and hit like a freight train, but there will be a decidedly higher trajectory as the target moves out and away.
boosting the foc, for better flight tracking, means rethinking the arrow from the ground up. that's all.
if 10gpp is yer goal, and yer arrow is made up with a 375 grain back end and 125 grain front end, rethink the back end, make it lighter - in doing so, that alone increases foc. more so if you also increase the front end at the same time. a redistribution of mass arrow weight that might work out to a 300 grain back end and 200 grain front end for a total arrow weight of the same 500 grains, that now yields a dramatic increase in foc.
foc management is easiest to work with carbons and alums, very very difficult with woodies.
as jc has said so well on this subject, and i fully concur, YMMV.
Just because you have an arrow that is EFOC does not mean it is automatically properly tuned to your set up, and the more you increase distance the more poor tuning is going to show up.
If your EFOC arrows are flying poorly at 40 yards you have a tuning problem.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Just because you have an arrow that is EFOC does not mean it is automatically properly tuned to your set up, and the more you increase distance the more poor tuning is going to show up.
If your EFOC arrows are flying poorly at 40 yards you have a tuning problem.
yes, arrow flight always comes before foc, efoc, uefoc and lmnop. :laughing:
Quotequote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bjorn:
Just because you have an arrow that is EFOC does not mean it is automatically properly tuned to your set up, and the more you increase distance the more poor tuning is going to show up.
If your EFOC arrows are flying poorly at 40 yards you have a tuning problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes, arrow flight always comes before foc, efoc, uefoc and lmnop.
Yes of course...but EFOC and UEFOC are very good methods by which arrows can be tuned properly and promptly.
Mike Walker,
"Interesting,thanks for sharing and good shooting.I'd be curious of your 3D results/scores with carbons and normal FOC,say around 12%......."
Not that you asked me but.....from my experience going from 650 gr. and 15% FOC to 830 gr. and 32-34% FOC my 3d scores have significantly improved.
However, there may be other reasons for that that I haven't learned yet but certainly would like to find out.
Didn't mean to butt in.
Flying Dutchman - Since the overall weight of your carbons is much lighter than the woodies, they leave the bow faster, but would also shed their velocity faster, which may account for the similar trajectories. other factors such as fletching drag, shaft diameter (as it relates to both drag in flight and how the arrow leaves the bow - a slimmer arrow has it's centerline closer to the riser and rest, resulting in different flight), also affect trajectory.
Since your carbons are lighter than the woods, they would be expected to deflect easier, and also wind drift easier, and penetrate less. EFOC will help penetration, lessen wind drift and deflection, the overall arrow weight is still less, and overcomes the gains of EFOC. The "lever" advantage described above still works and your carbons with EFOC will require less fletching and fly better than those same arrows without EFOC.
Now, if you added 15% weight to the front of your woodies, it would slow them down, and they would lose some trajectory, but also become more stable in flight and penetrate better.
Look at it in extremes; if you try to shoot an arrow with extremely low FOC, such as with no point or insert, the arrow will often be very unstable and difficult to control - start adding point weight and the arrow gets more stable. At some point the FOC would become so high as to again be unstable - bullets are defined by their sectional density, and a very short, fat bullet preforms poorly, too. Imagine if there were a fiber stiff enough to be an arrow shaft the size and weight of the tread, with a flat coin at the end for a tip - it would have extreme FOC, but fly very poorly.
With two arrows of the same overall weight but differing FOC's, (within reason) the higher FOC will be a more stable and easier to shoot arrow and will maintain it's velocity and penetration better.
Roughrider your mistaken about foc. Higher foc is always better for stability as long as the arrows have the same dynamic spine. The reason an arrow without a tip or with too much tip weight is unstable has to do with tuning not foc. Tuning trumps foc. Tuning really trumps everything arrow weight, foc, etc. 50% foc is optimum but impossible so we have to settle for less. I think 40% will soon be possible for normal arrow weights. It's not foc "within reason" it's tuning. Higher foc is better than lower foc as long as that's the only variable changed. If tuning changes the arrow will be unstable no matter how much or how little foc it has.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
Flying Dutchman,
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm reading this correctly, you're light carbons with EFOC shot the same point of impact as your heavier wood arrows with normal FOC? If so, I'm not surprised, but just wanted to make sure that I understood your post.
I am not quite sure what you mean with this? To shoot the same point of impact?
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Walker:
Flying Dutchman,
Interesting,thanks for sharing and good shooting.I'd be curious of your 3D results/scores with carbons and normal FOC,say around 12%.......
Ok, let's understand each other right. I dind't make these EFOCs on purpose, it was the outcome of bareshafttuning.
Now for wood: it's very difficult to change the FOC for wood. I lacquer the last 10 inches of my shaft, just for finding my arrows easier back and make it easier to follow in the flight. It's white with purple, just as my fletching is. With these shafts I use 100 grains field tips, giving me a FOC of 8,5%, which is a perfect value for 3D. After bareshafting I found out that a shaft of 5/15 40-45 at a lenght of 30,3 inches does the job.
I can look what I did on the same last two 3D tournaments I shot. I shot the last one with carbon's EFOC and the former with woodies and 8,5 FOC.
Tournament one: on 32 targets 266 points with wood (8.5 foc), and on 31 targets 338 points with carbon (20 foc).
Tournament two: on 20 targets 335 points with wood (8.5 foc) and 360 with carbon(20 foc)
The time-frame between the same tournements for number one was one year and number two was 3 months.
Keep in mind that the tournaments never are the same, they are re-build every time and always totally different. They tend to have the same level, however they become more difficult each time. Especially since we have a National Championship here..
Don't look to much to the points, since we have a totally different counting as you do, especially the second tournament.
So it is obvious I improved. Especially if you consider that the same tournaments become more difficult every time.
However what caused this improvement?
Am I learning? Yes!
Gives the higher speed of carbon me an advantage, especially for targets at 45 yards and further? Yes!
Gives the higher speed, consisticy and straightness of carbon me an advantage in shooting trough tiny holes in branches/leaves? Yes!
Gives the fact that carbons are always straight and weigh all the same give me an advantage? Yes!
Gives the EFOC me and advantage? I don't know.....
And to give you guys an idea how our tournaments look like: her you see me in action and yes, it was hot! We always try to imitate real bowhunting as close as possible. The only thing is that our distances are bigger. This deer was at 25-30 yards. Just needed a single arrow(woodie,8.5% foc)to shoot it in the center-kill.
please post images no wider than 640
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6428/sonjapirardbakkerv2.jpg[/IMG][/IMG]
Good pic Dutch. Good shooting too.
Not that you should but...Ain't now way you're gonna get a picture on this thread any bigger than 640.
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
Flying Dutchman,
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm reading this correctly, you're light carbons with EFOC shot the same point of impact as your heavier wood arrows with normal FOC? If so, I'm not surprised, but just wanted to make sure that I understood your post.
I am not quite sure what you mean with this? To shoot the same point of impact? [/b]
I apologize. By that I meant that they hit the same at various distances, as opposed to one hitting lower than the other.
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Spine trumps all for sure. What is the weight difference between your woodies and carbons?
My woodies are 12GPP and my carbons 9.4 [/b]
So you dropped 120-150 grains of arrow weight and got better penetration?
I'd say that's a huge vote for EFOC right there.
Jeff....have you already forgotten the carbon arrow history???? :readit: :D
More a vote for carbon shafting really than some FOC number. Remember how carbons were found to out penetraiting heavier wood arrows about 8 years ago before all the FOC stuff?????,....
Based on several factors, i.e., more dimentionable stability causing less 'noodling' at impact....faster recovery from paradox,...thinner shafting than most wood arrows...and even more dimentional stability when the shafts became radial wrap/cross weave.
Carbon arrows out penetraiting heavier wood arrows is not 'new'.
Again its what you need in an arrow that counts, for hunting im very excited about the efoc, im shooting a 510 grain arrow with 225 up front, its has proved to b a great hunting setup, but for 3D i dont need it to pin a target. Accuracy is key and being confident your arrow will go where you need it to.
"Gives the EFOC me and advantage? I don't know....." Yes EFOC gives you an advantage. It's like shooting bigger fletchings, it's more forgiving. But instead of adding drag to do that, it adds leverage and reduces drag, resulting in flatter trajectory. The carbon itself recovers from paradox faster than wood but efoc carbon recovers a lot faster than low foc wood.
Very true, Terry. I'm also fairly sure there's a diameter difference...yet another variable.
FD seemed fairly underwhelmed by the difference in penetration..I was pointing out that with that much weight drop, he should have seen LESS penetration..so don't be disappointed there wasn't a larger change.
Ok, I'll try to post the pic again:
"And to give you guys an idea how our tournaments look like: her you see me in action and yes, it was hot! We always try to imitate real bowhunting as close as possible. The only thing is that our distances are bigger. This deer was at 25-30 yards. Just needed a single arrow(woodie,8.5% foc)to shoot it in the center-kill"
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/7449/schijffa2large.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
Flying Dutchman,
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm reading this correctly, you're light carbons with EFOC shot the same point of impact as your heavier wood arrows with normal FOC? If so, I'm not surprised, but just wanted to make sure that I understood your post.
I am not quite sure what you mean with this? To shoot the same point of impact? [/b]
I apologize. By that I meant that they hit the same at various distances, as opposed to one hitting lower than the other. [/b]
Now I understand, thanks! Yes, they hit the same.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Spine trumps all for sure. What is the weight difference between your woodies and carbons?
My woodies are 12GPP and my carbons 9.4 [/b]
So you dropped 120-150 grains of arrow weight and got better penetration?
I'd say that's a huge vote for EFOC right there. [/b]
No, I wouldn't say that. My KE stays the same. I think that when the Ke stays the same, the penetration also stays the same. With lighter arrows the speed increase, but the mass is less, resulting in the smae KE as with lower speed and more weight.
i.e.: 6*4=24 and 3*8=24 also...
Flying,
Well, that's not how things shake out in every test I've observed. Less weight means less penetration every time.
Terry had it right, though. The switch from wood to carbon is likely the largest part of the gain.
I also think that the biggest gain is in the switch from carbon to wood, I totally agree!
But I am confused about penetration. For a 3D shooter it is not really imporatnt, as long as the arrow doesn't faal out of the target it's OK! I am not into physics, so please correct me if I am wrong... Less weight means higher speed and higher weight means less speed... I thought that penetration was a a result of combination of speed and weight????
Shortly said: the heigher the KE, the heigher the penetration???
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
First of all: I am a 3D shooter only. In the Netherlands, bowhunting is forbidden and illegal.
I started one year and a half ago with traditional archery. As on the most tournamants woodies only are permitted, I started with POC's. After a short while I started to build them myself. Did the upmost to end up with a FOC of 8,5% (9% is considered to be ideal) Ofcourse I took care that everything else fitted the bill too. I shoot very good with them. Won already some prices on some National tournaments.
Since they decided that for the Dutch National Traditional Championship carbon is allowed too, I started with carbon.
I shoot with a very light mildly R/D longbow, 38#@29",which is my drawlenght.
I ended up with Goldtip Entrada 15-35 Ultralights, which I bareshafted extensively till 35 yards. At their full lenght of 30" they needed a 125 grains fieldtip with the normal insert of 14.6 grains and a weight adapter of 20 grains. The adapters are very easily installed with the wrench, great system!
However, I ended up with a FOC of 20% and that's very close to EFOC.
I was worried how these arrows with their high FOC's would behave on tournaments, were we sometimes face distances of 70 yards, and were 50 yards is quite common.
I also heard that arrows with EFOCs would glance off less on targets and would be less sensitive for small branches and leaves.
I also changed my 16 strands FF string for a 6 strands ultra SBD string. Altogether I gained 20 fps in speed, shooting around 190 fps now. I also installed a bowquiver to reduce handshock and gain stability.
So far so good.
Than I started to practice with the carbons and to my astonishment, I didn't notice any difference in aiming. I expected the carbons with the EFOCs to hit the target lower, but I couldn't notice any difference. I shoot purely instinctive, split finger, and two eyes open, focusing on the target.I can even shoot my woodies and carbons through eachother, hitting the target every time, isn't that odd???
Even on long ranges like 50 yards or more, no difference! People warned me that these arrows wouldn't be suitable for longer ranges, but on the contrary! Last Sunday I shot my best 3D round ever with these arrows. We had to hit a target on 70 yards, it was a big bison. I shot it with my first arrow right in the kill! Amazing but true.
Of course I can notice the difference between the slower flying wood (170 fps) or the fast flying carbons (190 fps) Woodies are way more forgiving were carbons take advantage of every small form-mistake you make.
And now some myth-busting :readit: :
I shot three important tournaments with them and as glancing off the targets concerned, carbons with EFOC do it just as easy as woodies with a 9% FOC.
As for sensitivity for small branches and leaves: I can't notice any difference between my woodies and carbons. Carbons with EFOCs get deflected too!
As for deeper penetration: on an ethafoam 220 pack my carbons penetrate in the best case about 1/3 inch deeper. For accurate measurement I really shot the different arrows very close to each other at the same distances.
As for consequent shooting and deadly acurate shooting: carbons all the way, as long you don't make any mistakes in your form. In that case you will get punished hard.
As for staying in one piece: indeed, carbon won't break. However, when a carbon arrow hits a thick branche and bounces away, or bounnce off the target dissapearing with a speed of over the 190 fps in the woods, you'd be most luckey to find it back again. On the three tournaments I lost two carbons. I would say I loose as an average one woodie per tournament.
I know I won't be concerned for a too high FOC anymore, getting the right spine is much more important I think.
Just wanted to share this with my fellow-tradgangers.....
imho, yer strictly talking from a targeteer's perspective and yer not taking into consideration bowhunting, which IS different and what trad gang is all about.
everything in your above post is about TARGET archery, not bowhunting. i was a target archery junkie for nearly 20 years, lots of naa and nfaa tournaments over those years with freestyle fingers recurves (lotsa hoyt bows).
a lot of what you say is very apropos to the target scene only and has little or nothing to do with bowhunting reality.
penetration is not the game for punching paper and foam. so, forget about efoc, that's not a means to a target archer's goal. think instead, arrow/bow/archer tuning and stay with arrows thar are 7-9% foc and between 8 and 10 gpp. that's it, period. leave the higher foc (13% or lots more) for bowhunting, where it makes more sense and does more good.
EVERYTHING about archery is an 'experiment of one' - your form as it applies to your tackle. form is everything, and you are unique. it's nice to talk techie but that ain't really where it's at.
so yeah, penetration is about weight and speed (and sharp points, too). but that's all about hunting and not target archery.
same speed arrows but different weights? weight wins the penetration test.
why is this target archery thread still here?
I've found that EFOC is tougher through bushes and foilage than my non-FOC arrows when out stumping. I went out yesterday for the first time since September, and was surprised when my GT EFOC plowed through Pine branches, right after my non-FOC GT repelled off them!
Jesse,
yes, tuning does trump FOC, and about anything else. The arrow has to be tuned to the bow.
I disagree though that an extremely light FOC is not unstable - if 90% of the arrow weight were in the rear 1" of the shaft, I don't think it would be very stable in flight, regardless of the tune. Same for my example of outrageous FOC. From my experience, there becomes a point of diminishing returns - though I don't know if it's possible to get too much FOC with todays materials without going to a 600 grain+ tip and an arrow weighing over 1000 grains.
I shoot 30" Full Metal Jacket 300's with 250 - 300 grain heads and they fly great. I end up with about a 700 grain arrow that gives me 10 gpp - a set up I like. may try more FOC just to see what it does, but have shot through the last 5 deer I shot with that setup - and into the ground 20 yards beyond the last two.
"why is this target archery thread still here?"
Ha! Ha! You teasing us Rob?
Rob,
Quotepenetration is not the game for punching paper and foam. so, forget about efoc, that's not a means to a target archer's goal. think instead, arrow/bow/archer tuning and stay with arrows thar are 7-9% foc and between 8 and 10 gpp. that's it, period. leave the higher foc (13% or lots more) for bowhunting, where it makes more sense and does more good.
Could you please expound on that. I know nothing about the target archery scene.
What is a target archer's goal?
Why would you say low FOC for targets?
Thanks
"penetration is not the game for punching paper and foam. so, forget about efoc, that's not a means to a target archer's goal. think instead, arrow/bow/archer tuning and stay with arrows thar are 7-9% foc and between 8 and 10 gpp. that's it, period. leave the higher foc (13% or lots more) for bowhunting, where it makes more sense and does more good." Efoc has advantages in both so saying to stay in the 7-9% foc range doesn't make sense. Efoc is not all about penetration, but also about stability, how forgiving the arrow is, and flatter trajectory. All which help both target shooters and bowhunters. In fact penetration is just a small part of efoc. Most of the benefits are shared by both target shooters and bowhunters.
Roughrider, Foc is like efficiency. You want your bow to be 100% efficient(50%foc arrows) but it's impossible. A more efficient bow will be quieter, faster, and have less handshock than a less efficient bow. The only problem comes with how you get that efficiency. If you use an extremely reflexed riser to do so you give up stability and defeat the purpose. If you add too much weight to the front of an arrow it's out of tune and won't fly well defeating the purpose of having the arrow fly better with more foc. You're right about the foc being so low that no matter what you do it won't fly well but not about the foc being "too high". It's like having a bow that's "too efficient". Stability comes from the center of drag being behind the center of mass. There's two ways to accomplish that, adding more drag to the back or moving the balance point more forward. If the foc is so low that the center of drag isn't behind it or only slightly behind the balance point, the arrow will be unstable. If the foc is so high the center of drag will be way behind the center of mass so the arrow will just stabilize faster. Foc CANNOT be too high. If you had shafts that weighed 20grains but were stiff enough to tune for a 400-600grain point the arrows would be super stable not unstable. If you want, pm me with the detials of your arrow setup(gpi etc) and I'll see what would give you similar arrow weight and more foc.
Flying Dutchman, penetration comes from momentum and drag. Less drag or more momentum results in more penetration. Kinetic energy is how much force the bow imparts on the arrow not a measure of penetration. This is why the ke is so similar for both arrows. Momentum is the measure of how much force it takes to stop something, drag is the measure of stopping force. When you put them together you get the distance it takes to stop something or penetration.
I'm going to save all of this thread. When they start shooting deer in the olympics - I'll read it then. H
a target (fita, ifaa, naa, nfaa) archer doesn't care a fig about penetration. it's an ultimate consistency game. the form rules are more rigid than hunting in order to promote better uber consistency. hunter's don't have the luxury of standing upright, with vertical bow, careful foot stance and timed draw/anchor/hold/aim/release.
since formal target game venue marks are at distances waaaaaay further than practical hunting distances, arrow tracking is important for both stability and wind penetration considerations (not target penetration). hence, the 9% nibbs instead of 7% that were popular in the 60's & 70's. some fita archers go much higher, and their bows are in the hunting holding weight class.
imo, designing and building an arrow for formal target archery is lots different than that for a hunting arrow.
while some fita archers are holding good hunting weights of 50#, most are in the high 30's to mid 40's. reaching 50 to 90 meters with low trajectory is the name of the game, then add in consistent accuracy in outdoor weather conditions. with a 40# holding weight, you want the arrow speed needed to reach out and touch that gold with as low a trajectory as possible. 8-10gpp, for an arrow weight of 320-400 grains - not exactly built for hunting penetration even if the foc is above 15%.
as in the topic starter's case, there are archers who treat 3d as a formal archery event and will use 35-40# bows ... some even go the freestyle route with a stickbow. i see no benefit of efoc for that kinda archery. imo, once you get up to around 15% foc, that arrow is gonna track just fine and, in my own testing, i found no flight benefit of rebalancing the shaft for more foc.
if you treat a 3d event as hunting practice, then none of this thread matters at all. use yer hunting holding weight bow and heavy arrows with whatever foc floats yer boat and have at it. as you should. because you're a trad bowhunter and not a target archer.
Thanks.
It appears the major difference is shooting distance.
I still would think that high FOC would benefit the target archer as the arrow penetrates the air at those long distances.
I was just thinking that no target archer on the planet wants to be more accurate than "we" as bowhunters should want to be and low FOC is not the best accuracy for me.
That is why it's odd to me that people shoot their "3D" bows at a hunting type 3d shoot.
For us, 3D shoots are a simulation of the hunt. It's sad we are not allowed to hunt here. I personally see such 3D shoots in the woods as a good practice for hunting. We too selden have the luxury of standing right-up with a vertical bow. The tournament builders always do their best to give you a shot that is as difficult as possible.
As for time-frame: on the last tournament I was, there was a so-called hunting trail. In a natural mace (small trees/bushes) you had to find three different targets (all animals) and try to shoot them. The time you were given for that was only 45 seconds. I can tell you that wasn't easy!
I train as much as I can, because next year I want to go to the south France, where you can actually hunt with the bow.
I see 3D shoots as an excellent preparation.
But I am very well aware of the fact that hunting is something different then target archery. But before I go on a real hunt, I want to know how EFOC flies for me.....
fd - if yer simulating hunting, why with a 38# holding weight?
Since I shoot only for two years now. I've been told it is not wise to overbow yourself and to start with 35 lbs. New bow of 45# is already ordered.