This thread was posted before but in the wrong slot, I did not get a chance to u'r read comments prior to it being deleted so If those who commented then wouldn't mind repeating would be appreciated.
I first posted my situation of broken bows in Aug 08 to try and gauge what was reasonable to expect in a bow. I still don't know! At that time 4 of 8 bows had bit the dust and most were bought off a mainstream website, as at that time I did not even realise one could look for bows here on trad but joined to try an find out why but am still no wiser and languish in no man's land surrounded by match wood & tooth picks.
I commented then "I suppose as with most of us hard earned money an decent intent wasted through unscrupulous means is a bitter pill." Many of the comments then were both given and received with consideration. So much so that I don't wish to deal with people outside of trad as everyone has been marvellous in providing both sound advice, tho sometimes on pedantic terms and general reliable knowledge. Seems I may be stupid if technically inept! But thanks to Rob I may work the pict thing out soon.
In Jly 09 I again had recourse to mention that 2 more bows "had gone the way of the wicked, to hell in a hand basket"
As again the sellers/archery shops would not even respond I approached the director of Samick, in this instance, in Korea and he eventually sent a replacement set of limbs for my son. Unlike more famous bowers who's bureaucracy knew no bounds in their denial of accountability the previous year. After they assessed, he reckoned it was a just faulty limb! Wow accountability, let's see why, remedy the process and move on. Terrific ethic! We since don't deal with those established entreaties anymore.
Then three more that went leg up. One, a heavy no name, I suppose to be expected! Then Nov 09, I bought custom made @71# a beaut, the hardwood raiser split and was sent to the bower for repair, this has been remedied and better than ever.
The other, a heralded high end make, Feb10. I had put through about 60 of a normal session of 100 about 3/4 evenings / wk. I have a couple types of arrow but they range from 800-900gn. I drew & Thwak! The string had peeled the string nock down about 2" and the limb tip (top limb)was two goal posts with tip hanging down between and string wedged in behind.
Three of the problems have been split raisers and the rest shattered limbs, usually the top one from the tip.
Now the most recent was strung on Feb 24th and on the 9th Apl this, another acclaimed bow@72# became the latest victim. Most annoying as in that brief time the wet season has prevented much practice at all, so I reckon about 18 odd sessions. The bottom limb snapped off the raiser, both bending at that juncture and the top laminates popping off the screw base holding the limb to raiser. This was my first longbow and the lightness and performance was great. So that makes 10!
It was previously pointed out by a fellow "The higher the poundage, the more stress on all parts of the bow, and the more likely that any minor flaw can turn into a big problem." But why do all these bows have flaws? Is there deficiency at manufacture? How much testing has been done on these bows? What's their life expectancy? How many shots can one reasonably expect to put through a bow/session an for how many mths before demise?
At least on trad there is at least hope sellers are genuine in their assessment of these bows. The last two being example of what I would expect/hope from all men. All sellers of course extol the virtues of their bow However accountability is paramount to trust and continued relations. When the deed is done most sellers get defensive as if they knew something but did not expect to be found, some don't even respond in the hope I will just go away. Some believe that once the buyer has put a few shots through a bow then that's the end of their responsibility as the bow is fine that first day, What sort of chicanery is this?
All bowyers reckon their bow had been adversely treated. No! That is not the case! So might it be that the bow has fault? At least one admitted it was the case. Whichever way! I'm pretty much over being duded an still no wiser so am little perturbed by the cold shoulder attitude given some. They may feel bad but assuredly they have lost naught, I have incurred the cost an loss. Please be mindful that the last 2 broken were suggested as credible alternatives so I'd rather get this right.
I don't get it! So I hope the collective expertise here may. Are these bows not meant to be used in this manner? Is one expecting too much in performance? I tend to think that this is no longer "bad luck"! As to replacement limbs, is there reason to expect the same won't occur again? when a bowyer reckons there is no fault in the first place. In fairness to bowyers tho, they can't tell what happened to a bow before I got it but in one instance I contacted the original owner and the next, both experienced traders, whom I bought it from who both said it had had light usage only and no misfires. Now I'm asking round to see if there are specific bows that won't bugger up? What bowyers can make definitively usable heavier bows? And am getting the sort of info I wanted at the start. Thanks heavy hitters!
Aside from the infernal nuisance of really getting to like a particular bow and its characteristics, I reiterate just how disappointing and frustrating spending thousands of dollars over the past years, to end up with match wood and fibreglass toothpicks, has been.
For those who would take time to consider evaluating I include the following to narrow the field of reason and do very much appreciate your all input in this matter.
Cheers
. Commenced shooting trad 06 with 65#. They were all 2nd hand and except for a herters magnum all broke (but although it seems bullet proof that maybe because it's not used anymore,) We did played with a 35# full length target bow that had been given us 05 which remained my sons until he grew out of it a year later. This remained our guest bow but later broke, we figure its use by date was up. Joined tradgang in 07 in the hope of gleaming what was going on and get better acquainted with archery
. One that my son broke an two I broke, of the next lot bought in 08 were new, all others 2nd hand. All mine are 70-78# since end of 07 (They seem to break when used consistently which made me think they were not made for more than a few practice shots at a time. Once I get the feel of a particular bow I tend to use it mostly, 100 shots/ session sometimes less if called away. Could it be that if one gets comfy one can start pulling the string back further with a flourish as if to drill it home therefore extending the draw but surely ½ an inch shouldn't matter?)
. Draw length is 28"
. I am one up 2 down split finger (but tried 3 under after reading a few posts and did not enjoy as much)
. Arrow weights are all 11-12.5gn/# . I make them up and have a grain scale. Since 08 only carbons and experimenting with heavy marigolds.
. Got a smack across the back of the head when I was a kid, for dry firing a bow, never forgot it or did it again.
. They are strung with a stringer seated well and later checked.
. They are stored level on an even rack in a cool dry room always
. Only the one that I am using consistently remains strung the others are loosed. if I go out to sea for more than a week it is also loosed
. There is no dirt and they don't get wet
. The bows we are using rest on a day bed while we retrieve our arrows
. No fast flights, all Flemish
. I always warm up a bow when I receive it with 20-50 short draw shots first off as most people selling higher poundage have tended not to use them for awhile.
. I always check with the seller about the correct brace height, then measure on a scale at the end of the first session to make sure it's the correct draw weight
. They are all TD recurves except for the last one was a TD long bow.
. When I commenced trad the fella at the archery shop said my stance and hold were fine when he measured my draw.
. When I had one built the bowyer spent some time with me going over the care of it which confirmed I was on the right track with the others that broke. He was pleased that me and my nephew hold the strain well and didn't snap shoot his replica English long bow at 90#.
Ok,
First, if the bows were bought new from the bowyer they should have a warrenty and the bowyer is obligated to fix them.
If the bows were bought used then unless the bowyer states he will honor the warrenty then he is under no obligation to fix the bow.
You say no fast flights, all flemish, ff can be used to make a flemish string. If the bows were made for modern strings then they should handle the string ok, if not, then they could break. If they were made for B50 material only that is what needs to be used on the bows. Most modern bows are made for ff unless the bowyer specifices not for ff. Two that come to mind are Schafer and Dale Dye.
As many bows that you have had break I would check my strings and make sure they are B50 if that is what is supposed to be used on the bow.
I have bows from as far back as the 1950's that are shot all the time and I have never had a bow break.
We would need to know the manufacture of the bow and wheather bought from the bowyer with warrenty or bought used with no warrenty to give any further advise.
Danny
You sir must have the worst luck of anyone i have ever heard of. Break one, gosh, bad luck. To break as many as you have....i am speechless.. :eek: :scared:
Given your terrible luck you might consider buying only new and bulletproof bows direct from the bowyer with no middle seller.
I am sure there are many that fit the description; two that come to mind for me are Black Widow and Fedora.
You have a 28-inch draw, right. How long are the bows you're shooting/breaking?
You've baffled me....in 30 years of trad shooting I broke exactly one bow...a bow-bolt takedown longbow that was improperly constructed. Your draw is not real long...the higher poundage thing is not necessarily true. A higher draw weight bow will have more mass in the limbs which should make it more durable not less. The string nock problem sounds like a classic case of fast flite being used instead of dacron...was this the case?
I believe that the limb tips need to be thicker on a heavier bow...were the tips very thin? Still, I should point out that the older models from Damon Howatt all had very thin tip overlays made of wood and I've seen fast flite used on these bows with no trouble. They were not made to take fast flite but they do...I think a testament to the overall quality of their construction.
As to your question about how long a bow should last....I have bows that range from brand new to 50 years old and they stand up to my 31" draw. I regularly shoot a 30 year old Bear recurve with no trouble. I intend to use a 40 year old model this hunting season and I have no reservations at all...
It really sounds like rotten luck but then you would have the worst of any bowhunter I've ever heard of.
Good Luck
Paul, that's truly amazing. You might double-check the strings as Danny suggested, and you might also make sure that you're measuring the brace height from the proper point as recommended by the manufacturer. I can't imagine what else might be responsible for that many failures! I'm a bow abuser, and the only failure I've had in the last 40+ years was from using a FF string on a Dacron-only bow, and it cut through the tips.
I am totally speechless.
I can't imagine breaking 10 bows.
If I'm ever around you please remind me to not allow you to shoot mine...lol
God bless,Mudd
I shoot 75# all the time and have never busted one yet. Only issue I can see is the Land Down Under is not known for it's cool temps and stress on heavy bows is great. I think it is time for a Widow. I'm not a Widow fan but they are built like a Brick $hit House and should stand up to just about anything on earth.They have a warranty and reputation that stands behind their products.
WOW, I'm stunned! Maybe you could try an aluminum riser bow like the Hoyts or the Daala.
I have 2 Hoyts, and they seem to be really tough bows. If your stuck on wood, then i would try buying new. That way, you know what your getting. Good luck!
I can't believe the rotten luck you have been having. I shoot bows around the same poundage that you do, never had one break. Thank the LORD. I could not imagine having 10 break, I would be gun shy. About the bowyers, I like my Robertsons. Hold up great. I too am a bow abuser like Don stated. I toss mine on the ground when pulling arrows, let my kids shoot it, hunt in all kinds of nasty weather, and drag them in and out of the woods several times a week during season. They never fail.
I smell fish! Nobody breaks that many bows for no obvious reason and if he is, it's because of operator error. Not trying to be judgmental but something is wrong with his story. I've been shooting for 35 years and only broken 1 bow. Either you are doing something wrong or you have the worst luck in the world. Either way, I wouldn't want to stand next to you in a thunderstorm.
I am curious to as to how long the bows are. If you are buying short bows they are under a lot more stress than longer bows. Add in the heat in Oz and the poundage and that could be the problems. I would only buy direct from reputable well known companies. Black Widow as mentioned above, or another that provides a top notch warranty.
I can relate to your store but in a lesser degree. I've been shooting since the 50s but recently had 2 bows break in the last 7 months. One, a 1965 Bear Kodiak 41# delaminated on a shot. The other a late 60s Hoyt Pro Hunter 50# bottom limb broke in half on a first shot of the day. I have a dozen bow to shoot, all are 60s recurves by Bear, Hoyt, Tice and Watts, Browning. I am retired so shoot almost everyday 50-80 arrows per session and draw 27"-27.5".
Do I have bad luck? Am I abusing these old bows? Now my friends who sold me the bows are saying they don't want to sell me anymore for fear I'll blow them up. I hear the same crap "I've been shooting for 40 years and never had a bow break, what's wrong with you?" These are unfair statements in my opinion.
Sorry to hear about all your bad luck.I've never heard anything remotely like it.In 45 or so years shooting recurves,I have never had one break and may have only seen one break.No way to predict when it might but 10 for 10? That's serious bad luck or something else is wrong.
It sounds like you store the bows properly but how were they stored by the previous owners?How much heat did the encounter during shipping?I wouldn't expect a manufacturer of any product to honor a non-existent warranty for a product that you bought used and no telling how many owners it had or how it was handled.
" No fast flights, all Flemish"
Go back to Danny Rowan's reply.Because a string is Flemish does not tell you if it is Fast Flight or not.There are many,many Flemish,Fast Flight strings being made and used.If you are not an experienced string maker,the only way to be sure that you have a Dacron string is to order it yourself.Some of the damage you describe sounds exactly like what I have seen where people have blown up tips,using FF on non FF compatible bows.
As others have already said,if you want the insurance of a warranty,buy a new bow from reputible maker.At any rate,you really have to stop that bad streak of luck or somebody is going to get seriously hurt.Good luck to you.
What kind of torque are you putting on the limbs?
Quote......"They are all TD recurves except for the last one was a TD long bow"
What brand bows are these? And what is the overall length? Are they all breaking in the same manner?
I guess you could break that many if the string grooves are cut incorrectly and you use too skinny of a string. Post some pics for us, especially of the tips.
I think I'd have figured out what the problem was after a couple of breaks, though. Ten is way too many to go through. It's highly unusual to break that many bows.
Have you considered taking up fishing :biglaugh:
At least you didn't loose any of them like me. The only bow I ever broke is one that I tried to tiller too extreme. Other than that in a lifetime of being a obsessive compulsive archer, I have only seen two bows break, both were stringing accidents by rookies. I need to go back and read what kind of bows these were again. There simply has to be more to this. Something is either happening to the bows when you are not there or there is an environmental situation. Do you store your bows under a high voltage microwave tower of something? Makes me wonder if I should start shooting with a full face motorcycle helmet.
QuoteOriginally posted by hunt it:
I shoot 75# all the time and have never busted one yet. Only issue I can see is the Land Down Under is not known for it's cool temps and stress on heavy bows is great. I think it is time for a Widow. I'm not a Widow fan but they are built like a Brick $hit House and should stand up to just about anything on earth.They have a warranty and reputation that stands behind their products.
:clapper: :clapper:
I'm betting those are fast flight strings and we are talking about mass-produced bows for the most part, i.e. Bear, Martin, Samick, etc.
To break one laminated fiberglass bow in a lifetime of shooting is bad luck, to break more than two, something is fishy.
Wow what bad luck. Are you maybe cranking the limb bolts down to tight? I know that will cause big problems. I've seen limbs split and risers crack because of it
One idea I've got was mentioned a couple of times, but not really brought out. I'm guessing all of these bows were likely purchased from the U.S. and shipped down under. I'm wondering if maybe they got too hot during the long shipping trek, which in turn weakened the glue that held them together. I'm pretty sure a bow setting in a shipping crate or in a truck out in the hot summer sun for a day or two, could reach some pretty high temperatures. Just a thought.
Perhaps less Vegimite :bigsmyl:
If we ever meet - please don't touch my bows. H
All of you bows have been take downs. Are you a compulsive bolt-tightener? How hard, and how often do you tighten the bolts?
Thanks all. Wow Danny! Had me off to the archery shop with all strings in hand. I am told that the only real way to find out if they are fast flight is that the fibres will burn green, also difficult to tell the difference between Dacron & B50 as they both burn orange, however he looked and reckoned they were all probably B50. Once I had them back home they all got the test and none burned green. Also the bows are 60 &62" tho the earlier 35# later used as a guest bow was 66" . I have an older Hoyt @ 56 or 8" but it has not been strung yet for this reason. I am mindful of the tightening of the limb bolts and they are just firm not overly tight, they are assembled on arrival and put on the rack, I don't think I have ever considered tightening them later but see what u mean. Only one of the earlier bows was ever seen to be loose and was destrung and nipped up. The bolts only get touched again when a bow is disassembled. The limb tips all seem appropriate.
Only a couple in 08 were new and one as mentioned was sent replacement limbs by the factory, the other was remedied by the bowyer. Of the last two through trad, third hand. I send the limbs to the bowyer cause if I were one I'd want to know. The first reckoned he'd previously only seen damage to limbs like that when a fellas son closed the truck door on the bow also the bottom limb was on the way out too. The other limbs, from the most recent victim that snapped at the raiser, are in transit but first response was that it had been left in the sun in a car causing it to delaminate. He should have them in a week so we may be a little wiser then.
Yes! The first few were the mass produced types and no names so imagined that was the real issue was the low quality but with these more reputable ones I think it a little fishy too when a non abusive history was established by the 2 previous owners. Yes! I have learnt my lesson and will be trying to buy new as, for a stingy bastard like me, it will be cheaper in the long run. U'r suggestions of what will hold up well and will put with the heavy hitter list but if I am doing something wrong surely that problem will carry over. But really it's a simple exercise with a string and stick so one would imagine if the sticks being flung are travelling correctly the process of pulling the string in relation to the bow must be reasonably right. The brace heights are correctly done. I want to be like Don when I grow up but perhaps not a serial abuser, but at least treat them like any other tool right now tho am a little tentative.
Ahh yes fishing!
I considered that as they were in a plane hold at some point the temp drop and as mentioned in a hot truck may have had an adverse effect, this seems concomitant and is still nagging but this has not affected all the bows other people have gotten the same way. With the ambient heat here, some of my compatriots also live in the tropics, NT an T'ville being even warmer at times, at least here there is 3000' elevation around and most evenings we get cooler air inversion which pleasantly corresponds with practice times
By torque do u refer to some sideways movement in the grip during the action of pulling the string?
With the last bow (short longbow @ 60") I commented to the seller that it appeared to me the string did not sit well in the groves but when the thing is pulled this was all seated well and I could see that was the diff in long bow limbs, however this bow broke bottom limb at the raiser not the tip.
I now realize that no one will buy a used bow from me and to offer me a try of u'r bow will be done with great trepidation. Maybe I should apply for a job as a crash test dummy for bowyers.
Appreciate u'r thoughts.
Some basic guidelines to better bow health/life-
#1 always use a bow stringer.
#2 don't leave your strung bow in a hot car or leaning up against a wall with all the weight on the bottom limb to store it. Hang it by a peg in the house and when transporting it, unstring it.
#3 try to replace your string about once a year, and inbetween replacements, try to maintain your strings by keeping them waxed.
#4 always try to shoot arrows that weigh around 500 grns or heavier to avoid stressing the bow too much. Really light arrows (example: 300grn arrows) will kill a bow with a situation simular to dry firing it. Never dry fire a bow.
#5 Yes, trad bows are very durable, but your equipment will treat you only as good as you treat it, so don't abuse it. :readit:
Thanks! #'s 1-5 DONE and DONE. My strings out last the bows m8
The comment about the thing left in a car was the last bowyers initial comment when I described the failure to him. My bows have not been in a car! If only # 5 were true I wouldn't be here.
So if no significant lateral considerations come to mind any further comment on bullet proofs will be appreciated, at least I can narrow the field.
Even the mods I approached with this are a bit miffed so thats why I'm here, I may not be any wiser but anything learnt today is a good day. e.g. yesterday I gleamed some on FF.
Cheers
It sures sounds like some type of glue failure from some type of extreme heat.
Or the worst luck of anybody I have ever heard of.
Me Too! Maybe in transit? Uncertain of heat generated by kinetics of usage? Surely not.
I have broken more than a couple throughout the years and not one of them from inproper handling (never one of my own make either). I like to shoot bows in the upper 80#'s and will only make two piece longbows for myself. My current go to bow is a 64" buffalo two piece with macassar and gaboon ebony with sheep horn overlays has received in excess of 5000 shots. It draws 86#'s at my 29.5" draw. There are no signs of wear to the TD or anywhere else for that matter. I have owned several black widow TD's up to 90 @ 28. Would never hesitate to build a heavy td or buy another from Black Widow.
Don't know that I would trust another TD system including 3 piece recurve in the upper 80 # category. Just asking alot from a threaded insert or screws.
Take a look at the last bow on my web. It is my personal 90#'er in td.
BIgJIm
Can't imagine it is heat. they ship lots of things that would be mush or dead in those heat situations.
bigjim
Thanks Big Jim. Had a look yesterday, stylish indeed.
GO Black Widow!
Hunt it
v e g E m i t e...... lol
Just out of curiousity, the bow that had the string pull down through the fibre glass at the string nocks.
Was that a take down longbow from a very well known trad shop.
I had a mate in Bourke who had a very similar problem. He was using the string supplied with the bow.
The bow was about 5 months old and broke while holding at full draw
I am not sure if its acceptable to talk about bow brands and problems here on the forum, especially if the bowyers are sponsors here.
If a few people were having similar issues it may start to tell a story.....
Outback don't encourage Hunt it, they might all start to wonder.
That issue has occurred to 4 bows the 2nd last being a TD Recurve is the one u refer to. Jeff Strubberg had it for the earlier bows but these last few were high end.
Re u'r pict. Is it that green there at the moment? There must be stuff hoppin/crawlin around everywhere!
divecon10,
Its just about always that green in Ballarat......but that picture about 10 years old