Just wondering on your thoughts. Does anyone own/shoot the carbon/foam cores?
Thanks!
I won't shoot anything else as long as I can get foam.
Wondering as well, I have a Classic Hunter with bamboo and am on the list for another sometime next year and am holding off making a decision on limb material.
Think of it like this. Foam does everything that bamboo does, just better. And it weighs less. :D
I wouldn't go back to bamboo.
Foam, period, end of story. If I can get it in a new bow I'd jump at it. Love the stuff.
Would someone please explain the type of foam used in the limbs and how it is applied? When I hear foam core, the only foam which comes to mind is polyfoam for packing or kids swimming noodles.
Thanks.
Bamboo, walnut or foam. Smoothness is all string angles and limb geometry not so much the core material. Take two identical bows and put them on a bow scale-one foam, one bamboo. I'll bet you a dollar for doughnuts they'll measure the same incrementally, all other variables being equal. Smoothness is measurable. People's minds are very suggestable. Maybe you would pick up 2-3fps-that I'm not sure of. (X-wood weight to foam etc.). Extra speed I don't care about. I'm shooting XP30's when I know the HEXV Border limbs are faster because I like the wood veneers. I also am shooting a longbow now which is slower thatn my recurve. I know I wouldn't trade my current set-up just for foam but maybe I would try it if it was the same price. I'd bet that some of you foam guys would also buy the next latest core material saying again how much better it is than foam. I'm for science and studies-what can be measured.
all wood and glass for me.
I have 2 Bamboo Shrews, SS & CH, and honestly dont see how they could be any smoother, even at a 30" draw.
Eric
I have the carbon and foam classic hunter. I have never shot a bamboo bow so I cannot compare them. The foam/carbon combo in a 70 pound bow hits hard, doesn't weigh hardly anything and is smooth and stable enough for me. I like the shrews enough that I haven't shot anything else in the past 5 years and I have liquidated almost all of my other bows and only keep shrews to shoot now. If you find something you like you might want to stick with it. I don't think you can loose either way.
Not in shrews, but owned both in multiple Morrisons...x2 what Bob, Rob, and Jeff said. Not only better "feel" to me, improved performance is a plus, and seldom does anyone mention the stability with temperature extremes. Bamboo definitely fluctuates a measurable, and sometimes remarkable amount with dramatic temperature changes...foam simply does not. Typically, most builders offer foam as an upgrade for a very marginal amount...and well worth that small expense in my opinion.
So much good info. Thanks. My question was specific to the Shrew Bows. The decision I will have to make in a few months is weather to purchase a bamboo or a carbon/foam shrew.
I do have a few Morrison bows with the carbon & foam, and they are indeed excellet.
I guess as curveman stated, its all about the gerometry of the bow although I do think materials will play intot he smoothness factor.
Hmm being a wood lover with a bamboo limbed longbow, I have been wondering on this myself. How does the lighter limb weight impact the vibrations of the bow? Doe is lessen it due to the foam, or does the lighter bow have more hand shock?
I like the wood limbs for the added beauty to the bow. Then again you could skin carbon / foam limbs to make them more attractive.
JC, you may be right-I hadn't really considered how temperature changes might affect the materials in question. Any physicists who can answer this one? I'd been told that with glass or carbon bows, the wood is mostly just along for the ride so to speak-self bows different story. Not having done all the experiments myself I can only learn from reading a lot about the tests of others. For a small price increase-what the heck?....but does foam present problems in terms of breakdown over time? I guess I too often read about the latest and greatest (pick a subject) that later presents its own problems or didn't turn out as promised. (Heroin was given that name as it was thought once to be the "hero" of pain medications)! Maybe the data is already in on this one? I do note however that it appears that the Korean Olympic shooters have been going back to wood core bows from synthetic or so I have read-I follow that sport almost not at all but nobody cares more about such things as those Olympic shooters.
You can still get the wood limb vaneers on the Shrew carbon foam limbs. I am in the same boat, my Shrew order is due up real soon. After talking with Gregg Coffey the other day about this, I think I am going to give the carbon foam a try. So BowZen, in a few months I will have some feedback for you. I have a couple bamboo limb Shrews now and love em.
I have owned two bows with foam in the limbs. One was a longbow with carbon/foam. I sold it because I do not shoot longbows well. Later on one of the limbs simply broke at a 90 degree angle for the new owner while at full draw. I have no idea whether this was caused by either the carbon or foam or maybe neither. I now have a recurve with the glass/foam limbs and do not really care for it for two reasons. The bow shoots great but has a distinct metallic sound when shot and I simply like wood limbs for the aesthetics. I see no major speed improvement over bamboo but I must say I have done no chronograph tests.
I am aware of a bowyer that has extensively tested carbon foam limbs and has not had dramatic improvement. I am with curveman, sometimes we convince ourselves something is better simply because it is new.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Kissner:
I am with curveman, sometimes we convince ourselves something is better simply because it is new.
And sometimes it might really be better...but it still may not be for everyone. If said bowyer did not get an improvement using carbon and foam in his design, I offer he may not have been using it to it's fullest potential.
You might be right JC. I certainly am not into technical stuff. I will leave that to younger and smarter people. I have very limited experience with foam and probably shouldn't have said anything. Everybody that knows me knows how opinionated I am but I've spent a lifetime being this way and even my wife has given up trying to change me! :)
I have shot a few of both. I am on the shrew list and right now, and it will be carbon, foam, uniwelt, and wood veneers under clear glass. I see no reason not to go with this combo. The last one I shot like that blew me away with feel, performance, accuracy, ..................
I got both in multiple brand bows. It's funny as some I like the design in carbon foam & other I prefer bamboo. Guess that's why I have a couple different bows ;) Doc
A couple Doc???
I have a Shrew with bamboo and one with carbon/foam. Both are nice, same weight, but the carbon/foam does seem smoother, don't know about quicker. I liked the Morrisons I had with bamboo over carbon/foam - but then most days I don't have a clue what I am talking about.
Don't feel bad Bill as opinions are what this forum is all about! It's all part of the fun and camaraderie in my opinion. If tradbow shooting was more popular then no doubt we'd have some real scientists doing just the controlled variable tests we'd need to answer this question definitely.
If you look at the top Korean limbs (Olympic) as I mentioned you will see a push back towards wood cores. You will also see foam-wood core options using both in the same limb. Why? My engineering friends tell me that foam can have its own problems/weakness as a material due the little "voids" in it. Maybe that is why you see wood/foam combos in some of those Olympic limbs? There were a lot of bowyers that were at least historically applying the carbon wrong to limbs as well so JC may well be right on the application end with the foam.
I have to say though that some of this discussion reminds me of what seems to happen with compound bows. It seems like every 6 weeks Matthews is coming out with a new limb geometry and new materials and stabilizers that report-ably are "revolutionary" in design etc! Clearly they want you to believe that what you have is no longer suitable so you need to buy the "_________" bow! :D
QuoteOriginally posted by Irish:
A couple Doc???
I have a Shrew with bamboo and one with carbon. Both are nice, same weight, but the carbon does seem smoother, don't know about quicker. I liked the Morrisons I had with bamboo over carbon - but then most days I don't have a clue what I am talking about.
:biglaugh:
That's an example of what I am talking about though. I'd like to see a blindfold test to determine whether anyone could tell which is smoother and I mean a bow the tester had never seen or handled before! The bow scales say "no." I would bet that the bows Jeff talks about have different string angles etc. which is why the different core materials have differing favorably ratings depending on the bow.
I don't know anything either Irish-I have to ask about 9,000 people to come to a conclusion on anything! I use to think I was indecisive but now I'm not sure! :biglaugh:
Carbon and foam are applications of two different materials, not necessarily done in conjunction with one another. While some builders and shooters have not seen the benefits of carbon because of the type of carbon or the way it was applied or some simply don't like it at all for whatever reason, I think foam as a core material should be judged on it's own merits. If you take the arguable and admittedly small improvements carbon may give to a limb out of the mix, it's awfully hard to not choose foam over bamboo for a core. I challenge you to shoot both, with just glass and no carbon, and see what you think. I'll bet you'll choose the foam for multiple reasons...I simply cannot find a single reason NOT to like it...and the price is typically within $10-$20 for that option. The carbon though, I won't make that bet. It definitely has aspects that not everyone likes or wants, and there is definitely a give and take with it's characteristics...unlike foam in my opinion. Carbon is not for everyone for sure, but I'm convinced foam is a superior core. I know the original poster asked for Shrew opinions initially, but I think the benefits of foam will be seen no matter what the design/model/maker of bow.
One last thing, after approximately 18-20 custom bows built to my specs from various bowyers, and another probably 30+ purchased used from various sources, I have learned the most valuable lesson I think anyone can learn about buying a custom bow. Do NOT buy ANY bow without shooting a representative example first. Carbon, foam, carbon/foam can be debated all day every day and still not amount to a pile of horse exhaust to the guy plunking down his hard earned money without shooting it for himself.
I'm no expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. ;)
I should of said the Shrew and Morrison had foam-carbon Sorry I stayed at a Holiday Inn once also, obviously did me no good.
I have found in heavier weight bows that there is a drastic difference between foam/carbon and bamboo. Carbon/foam draws much smoother and would seem 5-10#'s lighter than pulling weight. This is on 70# plus bows.
I like em both.My cousins Shrew will be finished next month and his philosophy was go with the bamboo cause its served him well with 3 of his other bows.Make your best effort to shoot both before you order.Either way you got a smooth bow coming your way.
Definitely foam cores. I have a Morrison Cheyenne. It came with a set of boo core limbs at 53@28 and I then bought a set of foam core limbs 52@28. No comparison. The foam core limbs are much smoother to draw, faster and don't have the sharp recoil after the shot.
No-brainer for me.
I'll stick by my first comment... The three designs that I've tried them with were night and day improvements with the Foam Cores.
I haven't tried the foam cores with a Dakota yet as I like my Cougars to much with the boo cores, and it would kill me to have to sell them to get a new bow!
But, my Shawnee Dakota boo cores are gone and all I have for them are the foam core and/or carbon foam and Uni-Weft (which is the ultimate to me).
I've also owned several Shrews in the past with actionwood and boo cores. I got to shoot a carbon foam w/Uni-Weft at the Solana last year... and they are simply a different animal all together! Would love to get a Carbon Classic with that configuration to fill that "short" bow need. I'm also thinking hard about a PCHX Widow to fill that need too...
Hopefully the Widow boys are "tinkering" with the foam cores too... hint, hint, hint...
Jeff, I did ask the Widow Boys about foam and carbon a while back. They said not working on it. But you never know what will come out of Nixa in the future.
owned both in the shrew and could not tell any diff...
I have the first foam core Shrew and the first foam/carbon/uniweft Shrew, and I also have a bunch of bamboo core Shrews. The foam/carbon/uniweft Shrew Classic Hunter that Jeff Berberick was talking about shooting at Solana is my bow. The bamboo core Shrews are great, but the foam core Shrews are better. I think you would be doing yourself a disservice not to get the foam/carbon bow. And Gregg will automatically use the uniweft too. I have two more Shrews on order and both of them will have foam cores.
I also have to agree with the other folks here about the foam core Morrisons being better.
Allan