Hey everyone! I was eating a steak today and looked down at my knife and a light turned on. My knife was serrated. It got me thinking about serrated vs smooth broadheads.
Now I've read the Ashby reports. searched this site and others for an answer to no REAL conclusion.
Ashby did show that smooth edges are the best for penetration on fiberous buffalo hide. I've also read that serrations INCREASE drag through the meat.
The serrations I see on heads are big "teeth".
I'm more interested in deer.
I took a couple 200 grain grizzlies I have. Put a smooth polished hair popping edge on one and a filed edge on another.
I tried a few edges first for a filed edge. I used a fine checkering file ( that didn't work well..too coarse an edge) I tried cutting teeth with the thin edge of a 6" mill file by running it perpendicular across the already sharp edge to cut some teeth then resharpening the head...too coarse of teeth again.
Lastly I tried an 8" double cut bastard file. I just filed it sharp keeping the file pointing toward the tip so the teeth would face forward like a hacksaw blade. This method got an interesting edge. It wasn't consistent in tooth size or placement but I tell you what...IT wanted to slice me quick. It was NOT shaving sharp but it did want to grab my thumbnail.
So I took my polished broadhead and my rough edge head and glued a 6" piece of arrow in them. Then I drilled a hole in a small board so I could put the mounted broadhead sticking up from it.
I put my broadhead holder on a digital scale, tared it up and started the experiment.
Took a couple fresh beef steaks from the fridge and started to gently push it down over the heads while recording the maximum force used to push through the steak. I forget the cut of this steak. It was a cheapy that had the grain in parts that ran long through the steak and other where the meat was cut perp. to the grain.
I tried to keep lowering the steak at the same rate for each test the best I could.
I made 10 cuts with each head. 5 across the grain and 5 with the grain.
Ave force required to punch trough was this..
Smooth polished edge 660gms cutting with the grain. 795gms against the grain.
Rough toothed filed edge 680gms cutting with the grain.
695 gms against.
It seems the polished edge would "split" through the fibers easily but didn't want to cut through them as well as the toothed edge.
Also, this was interesting!.. When cutting across the grain the rough edge cut a 1 1/16" slit consistently. While the polished edge cut a 15/16" slit. The polished edge must have been using force to push the fibers out of the way rather than cut them.
I purposefully did NOT resharpen the heads between cuts in order to see if one dulled quicker than the other. I couldn't see any real evidence of one dulling quicker than the other.
I was worried the rough edge might get a build up of fibers stuck in the teeth but that was not the case. These steaks were only about 5/8" thick. The results might be more conclusive with a 5" roast but I not poking one up. Looks like I'm having fajitas as it is!
SO...that's my story.
My question is...Does anybody have any real world experience using a rough head like I described vs a polished one.
BTW I did alternate the steaks on each blade in case one steak was tougher than the other.
Thank you much!!
Before you go there check this out.We have been down this road many times.And it will never be agreed upon,So shoot what you like.BTW I asked the same thing and this was the thread.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=084135#000000
Thanks must've missed that one!
That was a while ago and if you read the whole thread it gets crazy toward the end.Take what info you can from it and come up with what you want to use.As long as your satisfied with it thats what matters you hunt with it not us.
:D
i read a very interesting article once in a medical journal at a doctors office about this- basically it said in big words that the capillary action of flesh is determined by trauma- meaning the smoother and faster a wound will bleed a tremendous amount more than a duller more tearing wound because the larger a trauma the more the body will try to fix it with coagulation and antibodies because more responses are triggered- interesting article- now my blades are shaving sharp- my two cents
Here we go :biglaugh:
I find that the Grizzly file that has no file grooves on the narrow side cuts a sharper serration than one that has the file grain on all four sides. I have found that on cow hide that the serrations that I do cut the full blade width and take less pressure than a smooth shaving sharp edge. I would like to advise that there is a vast difference from a broadhead that starts out shaving sharp and serrated with the two sided file than one that is filed but not shaving sharp and then raked with the four sided file. On a good hit they all will work, and all of the arguments have their merits. If using a standard Hill and the file sharpened edge instructions from Hill is done and seems quite keen and you do not have the ability to get that broadhead shaving sharp go ahead and use it. But experiment to find out how keen you can get that edge to decide what your sharpness standard is with it. That is the one nice thing about the single bevel, it can be made sharper with either technique than a standard Hill, but I have killed a bunch of deer with the standard sharpening instructions.
Hey Zradix, thanks for the time and trouble for your experiment. I found it very interesting. If you have time to do more testing, please share your results. Thanks again.
speaking of broadheads,being a newbie I'm not sure where to post this question, but I want to hunt ground hogs. what should I use as a hunting tip?
rover you can't go wrong with grizzlies. i have also wondered about this question just never asked I thank Zraidix for his testing i learned alot from it thanks jake
QuoteOriginally posted by rover brewer:
speaking of broadheads,being a newbie I'm not sure where to post this question, but I want to hunt ground hogs. what should I use as a hunting tip?
The Talons look pretty mean to me.
check this out. They have screw in ones as well.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=087183
QuoteOriginally posted by rover brewer:
speaking of broadheads,being a newbie I'm not sure where to post this question, but I want to hunt ground hogs. what should I use as a hunting tip?
I would highly suggest broadheads for anything larger than a rabbit. I've seen too many blunted-type small game heads bounce off raccoons and groundhogs to ever use them myself for those species.
Groundhogs are tough. Use a broadhead.
thanks for all the help, I'm surprised by all the replies, I think I'll order the talons they look nice and mean, will they fly like a field point,they look like they will.
Send me a dozen fresh 16 ounce ribeyes and I'll help with broadhead testing too!
Fascinating approach to an interesting topic. Well done sir! :thumbsup:
Rover... a BIG broadhead is the way to go on groundhogs. 160 grain Snuffers are about perfect. Tough as nails and easy to field sharpen to boot.
Max carnage for groundhogs... they're tough little beggars.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/charlie/SilexGroundhog.jpg)
Now talking about serrate edges, try this... use that coarse file to establish your edge nice and sharp.
Now use a KME (free hand if you want) and touch it up with a very fine stone... hard Arkansas or fine ceramic. Best of both worlds and nasty wicked sharp!!
QuoteOriginally posted by rover brewer:
thanks for all the help, I'm surprised by all the replies, I think I'll order the talons they look nice and mean, will they fly like a field point,they look like they will.
Hi rover brewer,
Yes, the Talons fly just like your field points.
They have a nice combination of blunt force and a 3/4" cutting diameter on blades that can be sharpened and resharpened.
I took 7 raccoons with the same head this season.
Stan
Just an update,got my talons in. The gang at red feather are great,I could not find a way to include my member no.# so I call and left a voice mail, I got called later they had already sent the order and included the extra talon they check the tradgang site just to make sure if someone forgot to put in thier member no#.Now thats good service.I picked talons over broadheads because I'm still a newbie and talons are cheaper to loose than broardheads.
QuoteOriginally posted by rover brewer:
speaking of broadheads,being a newbie I'm not sure where to post this question, but I want to hunt ground hogs. what should I use as a hunting tip?
QuoteOriginally posted by rover brewer:
thanks for all the help, I'm surprised by all the replies, I think I'll order the talons they look nice and mean, will they fly like a field point,they look like they will.
Rover....if you are talking about a ground hog....like the one that predicts spring, he will LAUGH at that Talon when it bounces off. Save yourself some grief and use a broadhead for ground hogs. They are built perfect to take a blunt arrow shot better than most....they are like a big catcher's mitt....and they will 'roll with the punch' from a blunted arrow, unless you make the perfect head shot.
I think Talons are great Small Game Heads no doubt...be carrying them this afternoon....but I DON'T consider Ground Hogs small game head compatible.
Email me your address and I'll send you a few old Broadhead just for those ground hogs.
There is a difference in serration and SCALLOPING an edge. Serrations are more random, like saw teeth that grab and tear the material (although it's a fine tear) where scallops just look like waves, all the same, one after the other. Their idea is that although the tips of the scallops may get dull, the edges down in the "valleys" stay sharp because they are relatively protected from dulling. Kind of like a good steak knife never needs sharpening.
Simple, serrated edges cause more damage to cells close to the ones being cut. The smoother and sharper an edge the less cells get damaged by the same cut.
The trombosites in damaged cells are respomsible for blood coagulation. This is why a razor cut can bleed for hours while a seriously deep scrape by a sharp piece of metal or whatever will stop bleeding fairly fast.
Bottomline. BOTH will penetrate. BOTH will cause enough damge to kill. The sharper smoother edge will have a MUCH HIGHER chance of leaving a decent & lasting blood trail.
Terry thanks for the offer I did some spring cleaning and have found some old broadheads,I am going to try the talons out for myself and for red feather, I've got 99 acres and plenty of groundhogs,will be sure to post my findings.