Just got my Jaguar Takedown speed tested. Did it just a couple of times:
o157 fps w/528 gr., KE = 28.89, Arrow FOC 13%
o174 fps w/409 gr., KE = 27.49, Arrow FOC 13.3%
My draw is 27" at 51#. Brace height is 7 1/4" though Martin recommends 7". Both arrows have 5" feathers, bow has B50 string.
Around here, there are some wild pigs, some get pretty large. Quartering shots have been recommended to me as well as shooting smaller pigs. I think for Boar you need a KE of 42. Is there a way to increase my KE for boar? Or is this bow just inadequate. I've been playing with online calculators, but can't get the KE to go up when changing arrow weight and changing fps to correspond.
What you NEED is a sharp broadhead put in the right place. Your bow should be able to do that if you can put the arrow where it needs to be.
I agree with centaur. The latest whiz bang articles and charts are interesting but when you start paying attention to them and deciding that your bow won't kill you're doing yourself a disservice.
Guy
sharp broahead, good flight. like they said.
I`ve said this several times. My Buddy John Bookhart has killed 100`s of hogs with a slow 45 @ 28 longbow. He shoots dacron strings and big broadheads. He recently did start shooting vpa 200 grain heads.
Exactly what Centaur said is the key.We often tend to make a simple thing hard. I shoot around 53@27 out of longbows mostly slight r/d or Hill style and know I can put a Big broadhead in the lungs of a mighty big pig.No worries.RC
Look at the shot placement pictures at the top. Most people try to hit a hog in the same place as they do a deer. The result is at best a liver hit, it is usually a gut shot. No 3-D target that I have seen has the scoring rings over the vitals. If you use a sharp, cut on contact broadhead, you should find your bloody arrow about ten feet the other side of where you shot the pig. Bill
click here for low ke bow & hog hunt (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=087141#000000)
Sharp broadhead + good shot placement==dead hog!
frank, all the reply posts so far are aces in my book. don't sweat the techie stuff, accuracy on the critter's right spot is most important of all.
Wasn't Izzy's piggy taken with a 46#. Seems a lot of hog guys shoot <50.
KE is a nice thing to compare bows and arrow weights, bow speed mostly, but it is a poor predictor of arrow penetration. Beware of folks who tell you need a KE of such and such for pigs, or deer, or whatever. They're probably wrong about a lot of other things as well. As already mentioned, a sharp head and good arrow placement will get the job done.
Izzy\\'s hog hunt with a "lightweight" bow (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=086224;p=1)
Here's Izzy's hunt.
You guys are sharp! Why do they post those so-called charts for hunting? Are those really for compound people? Seems to me as though it's inaccurate information.
KE means absolutely nothing to the penetration ability of an arrow. KE is a measure of stored energy in the arrow in flight. It says nothing about how well that arrow will penetrate. Impulse and momentum are what determine pentration.
Focus your energy on getting the heavier arrow and bow system in perfect tune and put that arrow in the boiler room. That pig will die, no matter how large if you do those last right.
The KE charts are designed for selling compound bows. Speed sells lots of compounds. KE is based on speed.
OK, do you think I should consider momentum? I was looking for a Momentum chart around that lists out recommended momentum for different animals like the KE charts but haven't found any.
Sorry about the techie questions, I have an engineering degree. Makes me anal. LOL!
Shoot about 10 grains per pound. Get your broadheads shaving sharp. Then concentrate on putting that broadhead in the right part of the animal.
That's really about all you have to do. Thousands of dead animals back it up.
Guy
Whoa! Seriously?! I've been barking up the wrong tree all this time?
Frank, point it at a hog, draw back, release string. Go start grill. Relax! H
Millions of animals were killed with bows and arrows, atlatls, spears, and/or rocks before man ever heard of KE, FOC, etc. Terry recently had a thread on here about trad archery not being Popular Mechanics, and it is true. Most of us do this because it is challenging, but is also technically pretty simple. If you are into charts and graphs and tables, they are certainly there to be looked at, but the bottom line is Sharp Head+Stuck in Right Place=Meat On the Table. Pointy sticks kill efficiently when tipped with sharp blades placed strategically in an animal's boiler room.
Frank, For your techie side take a look at the ashby (sp) report archives on the forum page, they list all of his research with KE VS Momentum and Penetration. Momentum is the key with our equipment
Cool. I checked Ashby's stuff about KE, but didn't get to the Momentum part. I'll do that. Interesting stuff. :)
Need a recurve chart that says:
Small game: xx slugs min.
Medium game: yy slugs min.
Grizzly, etc: zz slugs min.
Thanks guys! Oh, note to self: put down the friggin' calculator.
Your built-in calculator will do just fine: put one hand on the bow and the other hand to the string. Be sure their is an arrow in between.
Best of all, that calculator doesn't need batteries, it'll work fine on hamburgers and sunshine.
If you need more decimal points take off your shoes.
Guy
It really is quite simple, isn't it, good luck ...
Thanks guys. I did some quickies. Got this:
TPI 1.17
TPI 1.01
Now, the only way to increase TPI is by increasing momentum.
Note to self: put down the calculator. ROFL!
Hello
so far, like said the tradgang fellows training & sharpening are the keys
to be even more confident put weihgt, almost 10 grs/pounds and play with EFOC and probably a good & strong bilame
it's good for your mental and it's good also to pass trhough pig
Personnaly with my 27 draw i'm shooting a 49 pounds recurve, very very light configurtaion for my country *, but i read many things on TG, i ask questions sometiems and my arrows are 700 & 720 & 750 grs configurations with EFOC and every things work well like that !
i learn that the most important bowhunting with a trad bow is not the bow but the arrow including the broadhead of course !
* (where 10 years ago if you was not shooting a 70 pounds mini with a trad you was not a real man. Now all this guys have back, neck, arms problems)
Go kill a hog! On the big boars, you just need to be patient for the perfect shot angle.
QuoteOriginally posted by FrankM:
Thanks guys. I did some quickies. Got this:
TPI 1.17
TPI 1.01
Now, the only way to increase TPI is by increasing momentum.
Note to self: put down the calculator. ROFL!
yup, forget all that crap. it's no big deal to build or buy a 10gpp arrow with 15% foc and get them to fly well. hone yer accuracy at sane hunting distances - this is by far the most important aspect. get the bh's real sharp. pick a spot.
now stop typing and get out and practice! :D :thumbsup:
I shot a 203lb boar last thursday with a 46lb recvurve. He ran 25yrds. Broadhead was supersharp and shot was perfect. I know he would have gone alot father if shot in the guts with a 60lb bow. Got a pic of him on highlights page. Don
we dont need no stinkin charts! JUST pratice.sharp heads will cut everytime.
I asked my 50# bow an arrow combination not long ago and I'm going to give you the advice I got in short form. Put a sharp broadhead in the right spot and bring back pictures to show.
Frank, give your brain a rest. I too have an engineering degree and like you said we engineers can be anal at times. Many times, at first glance, we come up with an elegant if somewhat complicated solution to a problem.
Upon reflection for a few moments we usually come up with a much simpler solution.
Stick, string , sharp broadhead , tuned arrow- one of those reflective moments.
Enjoy, leave the math on the monitor and enjoy life LOL
QuoteOriginally posted by centaur:
What you NEED is a sharp broadhead put in the right place. Your bow should be able to do that if you can put the arrow where it needs to be.
QuoteOriginally posted by Grey Taylor:
I agree with centaur. The latest whiz bang articles and charts are interesting but when you start paying attention to them and deciding that your bow won't kill you're doing yourself a disservice.
Guy
QuoteOriginally posted by acadian archer:
Frank, give your brain a rest. I too have an engineering degree and like you said we engineers can be anal at times. Many times, at first glance, we come up with an elegant if somewhat complicated solution to a problem.
Upon reflection for a few moments we usually come up with a much simpler solution.
Stick, string , sharp broadhead , tuned arrow- one of those reflective moments.
Enjoy, leave the math on the monitor and enjoy life LOL
Yeah....what *I* think you NEED....is to go hunting... :campfire:
QuoteOriginally posted by FrankM:
You guys are sharp! Why do they post those so-called charts for hunting? Are those really for compound people? Seems to me as though it's inaccurate information.
Honestly, I think they mean well. For whatever reason (and I suppose there are some valid reasons) Ke figures have become somewhat of a benchmark for bowhunters. While I appreciate the desire to promote that people not go afield "under-gunned," Ke tables at times have no basis in reality.
The fact is that people have been recreationally bowhunting (as opposed to bowhunting for survival) for over a hundred years. As a group, we figured out what it takes to kill animals long before Ke charts, FOC charts, momentum charts, or any of the other popular "this versus that" platitudes that are promoted as Gospel these days.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Yeah....what *I* think you NEED....is to go hunting... :campfire: /QUOTE]
You are so right. There's a pig problem y'know. They're tearing up the landscape. Eating too many acorns, killing the trees in San Diego. Yup, I'm going green! Save the planet! Kill a pig!
<<10gpp arrow with 15% foc and get them to fly well. Stick, string , sharp broadhead , tuned arrow.>>
Have all of that now except foc is 13%. Now, to tune the arrows with my bow at 10-20 yards. Adjust FOC if needed.
You are wise, Master. Grasshopper has learned. :)
I don't have an engineering degree and the physics formulas make my head hurt but if you like to delve into that stuff Frank,play with the formula for momentum and see how increases in weight affect momentum and then see how increases in speed affect momentum.Forget KE.It is a poor indicator and the results,on paper,tend to favor faster bows.
Stick around here awhile and you will find out that many,many people are blowing through,elk,moose,bears and tough African game with setups like yours and lighter.
Large pigs have a formidable shield so shot placement is everything.There is good infrmation on that,here on the site.There isn't an animal on planet earth that can take a hole through both lungs.
Yeah, did that. Got this:
Max TPI: 132-112 fps w/680-800 gr., M = .40 slug-fps, TPI = .40 * 3.53 * .9 = 1.27
The arrows with the most "hit" are 680-800 gr. for my bow. The speed worries me though, 112-132 fps seems a little slow. But, if I buy a Quinn Stallion that goes 30 fps faster, I'm gold. LOL!
I am so devious. :)
Heheh :) I'm a member on several similar forums and this type of debate come up over and over. Truth is...KE is totally inaccurate. If you calculate the KE...you'll end up believing you can hunt Cape Buffalo with a .22 rifle...(do the sums if you don't believe me)
Momentum is a better indicator...HOWEVER, the indicators for minimum need to hunt animal X are MOSTLY meant for the case where YOU DO NOT HIT THE RIGHT SPOT.
So...if you shoot at a hog and hit it on the shoulder bone..you'll wish you had more...you might wish you had more even if you had 70-80lbs @28" if the shot is "perfectly wrong" :) If you hit it perfectly...you can kill that same hog with even less than what you're using.
I know several guys who got clean passthrough kills on Black Wildebeest using 45# recurves... A welltuned heavy arrow, razor sharp broadhead and good shotplacement...you can hunt almost anything with more or less 45#
I've shot a number of pigs of varying sizes. One of my best I took with a Hill longbow @48# at my 28" draw, shot a nice heavy 2018 and Zwickey 2 blade (double beveled even if you can believe it). Super penetration--from a tree stand--stuck out over a foot on the off side. Like they said above, sharp broadhead put in the right spot=dead pig. BUT if you get the shot just a bit too far back which is easy to do on pigs, you're in for a long trailing job. Just my 2 cents worth. Quit worrying about all the tech issues. You're way better equipped than any Indian and they fed their families for centuries without any idea that there was such a thing as KE. :D
David, I find it hard to believe that you got that kind of result with a double beveled broadhead :biglaugh:
Tounge in cheek, Guy
Frank your in for a ride, dont forget to take your brother, with you, as your sitting there and that big boar starts getting closer, and your heart starts pounding so you think the whole world can hear it in your chest.... That boar might start squealing like he was cast in the movie "Deliverance"... hit him in the sweet spot... :thumbsup:
Oh geez, Ned Beatty! Can you believe it? There is actually a compound bow called "Deliverance". Do you think they named it on purpose? LOL
Does that bow make "banjo" sounds when shot?