I shoot three under and from previous conversations with many bowyers, I think I remember that both recurves and longbows should have a 1/4" POSITIVE TILLER.
I was wondering what impact shooting an even tillered bow would have? Would it adversly impact shooting characteristics since you would have a stronger bottom limbs and a weaker top limb?
Thanks in advance! :archer:
Most bowyers that tiller for 3 under tiller even.
Just tune the bow like any other. I have only had a problem with a super short 54" bow. Could never get short bows to shoot well for me with any method.
buckster, I believe that what you are saying about the positive tiller is the way most bows are made for split finger shooters.
An even tillered bow is made for a 3 under shooter specifically.
with that said, a three under shooter can shoot a bow that was tillered normally (for split fingers) just fine.
Usually the nock point is just a tad higher than on an even tillered bow.
Barry,
I'm interested in this very same question since I started shooting my Das three under. From what I have gathered, for shooting three under you want an even or 0 tiller.
However,I know several three under shooters and they shoot normal tillered bows with no ill affects. Like smallwood said, Usually the only difference is the nocking point.
JOHN
From experimenting with my DAS bow, I've found that it shoots best 3 under when tillered 1/8" positive. YMMV, of course. It's nice to be able to adjust the tiller, isn't it?
Thanks Dave,
Yes it is nice to be able to adjust the tiller!
I'm still in the experimenting mode. I'll have to give that setting a try and see how the Difference feels. Are you shooting a 17" or 21"?
Mine is a 17" riser. I have 45# and 55# limbs to make a 62" bow. The poundage is also adjustable, of course. Since it is a very functional bow, but (and I hate to say it) a very ugly bow, I find that it has become my main hunting bow, since I don't care if it picks up dings from hunting with it or being mishandled by TSA agents.
I wonder if there are any bowyers out there that could chime in...someone who has done some testing?? I have ordered 5 custom bows for 3 under and still have to shoot a 3/4 np...noise is still an issue with most of them to.
bshunter, have you checked the tiller on them? I have also ordered bows in the past that where ordered 3under and not tillered even. Shooting an ilf longbow, my wives, I was able to play with the tiller and even tiller is much quieter!
Yes ,if they are tillerd for three under they are much quiter.
I also shoot 3 under and just bought a Centaur from the classifieds that was tillered for split fingers. I emailed Jim Neaves yesterday and here was his response for his bows (which I think is pretty standard for most bowyers).
"If custom ordered I will usually go just a slight bit more positive tiller on the top limb for a three under shooter (around 1/4") but I have taken my standard 1/8" to 3/16" standard tiller and shot three under with perfect arrow flight."
Thanks everyone, I set my DAS up the same way McDave. I think what Smallwood said about most bowyers tillering EVEN for 3-under is right.
I also think the design of the bow and other factors would come into play.
Thanks for all the great feed-back and Happy Easter!
just my two cents worth.....that PCH that I got sent to me for my trip....I took it out of the box....strung it....never checked the nock height or brace height....
Just strung it and shot the arrows I made up. I was shooting it to get back to the FEELING of shooting a bow only.
Well everyone that has been around me or have shot this bow combo...IS IMPRESSED PERIOD.
I still haven't checked the nock set and I did check the brace height yesterday and it was 8-1/4"
so I read the info on her and twisted the string and shot it some more...still beautiful flight....it ended up at 8-3/4"
still quiet and right on target (anything that wasn't was me).
So I re-adjusted it to 8-1/2"....left it there...all seems good with this bow.
Other bows might be more finicky, but not the one.
I am totally impressed to say the least.
Jer Bear
Referring to Tom's post above: "If custom ordered I will usually go just a slight bit more positive tiller on the top limb for a three under shooter (around 1/4") but I have taken my standard 1/8" to 3/16" standard tiller and shot three under with perfect arrow flight."
This is also essentially what Black Widow does. If a customer orders a bow tillered for 3 under, the bow will have MORE positive tiller than if the bow were ordered for split fingers. This is the opposite of what everyone is saying here! Most bowyers will say that a bow tillered for 3 under should be even tillered, or perhaps a little bit of positive tiller, but LESS positive tiller than for split fingers.
At first, I thought I was misunderstanding what BW was saying, but I had them clarify it for me, and what I am stating above is correct. I also believe other reputable bowyers are correct when they state that an even tiller, or small positive tiller, is correct for their bows.
I wish someone could explain to me why it could go one way for some bowyers and the opposite way for other bowyers.
Three under shooters pull more on the bottom limb therefore it needs to be a tad stiffer to recover with the top limb, hence the positive tiller. Some bows are very forgiving so it is not a big deal and can be tuned perfectly with simple nock point adjustment.
"Three under shooters pull more on the bottom limb therefore it needs to be a tad stiffer to recover with the top limb, hence the positive tiller."
That would be the reason for having MORE postive tiller for a 3 under shooter.
I assume there is an equally valid reason why other bowyers make their bows even tiller for 3 under shooters. Does anyone know what that is, and where the twain shall meet?
I have always gone more positive tiller with 3 under, it is quieter than about the 3/16ths-1/4 inch tiller I usually go.
From what I was taught , at full draw you want pretty much equal tiller. In other words if you at pulling harder on the bottom limb you need to have more positive tiller to achieve this. On shorter bows (52 inch or so) you will need more than say a 66-68".
Done thousands of bows this way without a single complaint except on a 52" where I only gave it 3/8ths positive tiller and he never got it to settle till I took it to 1/2 inch, then he had it dialed and it was quiet.
Why do people give positive tiller in the first place if even if shooting splitfinger (could it be that even with split you are still slightly pulling harder on the bottom?) how would going even if pulling 3 under is working the bottom limb even more?
Yes you can get good flight with even tiller, problem is they are usually louder (even reverse tiller bows can have good flight with the nock raised high enough.
Ever listen to a good string walker shoot a bow, extremly loud and that due to the bottom limb and top limb not being in time while shot. The reverse is true with shooting a release, most bows are noisy untill you bring the tiller closer to even tiller then they settle down
What do I know....to each their own and do what works four you.
I do and have shot 3 under for at least 15 years. I have 1 long bow that was built for me that I specified for 3 under. My other bows, recurve and longs, were 2nd hand bows that I tuned to shoot for me. All my bows hit where I focus when I do things right. I wouldn't worry about the minor difference in tiller,if it is a bow you like, it will tune for either and it will be sellable or tradable in the future.
I am sure that some bowyers out there make their limbs the same length from fade out to fade out and others I know for a fact build the top limb anywhere from 1/2" to 2" longer than the bottom limb. Variations such as these may determine how much tiller a particular style of bow may need to shoot split finger or 3 fingers under properly. An even tiller may work fine for some bowyers, as for me 1/8" to 1/4" more distance from the top fadeout to the string will handle just about any style you want to shoot with slight nock height adjustment. Hope this helps, maybe some other bowyers who go with the even tiller theory can explain their thoughts.
thanks, Jim
I would like to hear the theory of some of the bowyers that go equal tiller?
Marc
Interesting post. I recently started mess'n round with three under and was impressed with the accuracy. However, not so impressed with the increased noice level. I was telling a friend about my experimenting while at the range a few days ago, so he thought he would give her a go. His comment after putting two arrows through his Widow....too loud.
Everything I read and was told said to go "0" tiller for 3 under. Today I was talking to Marc, at Chek-Mate, {Cujo} and this subject came up.
He asked how I set the tiller on my ILF bows."0" of course.
I just went downstairs and shot a bow at "0" tiller, then changed it to 3/8" positive.
Much quieter!!
Thanks Marc.
Pete
This is awesome feedback gentlemen, thanks SO much.
MARC, Good to hear you chime in here buddy.
I just ordered a LH Checkmate Hunter III from Chad recently, so be sure to work your tillering majic for me 3-under, and I requested a small grip for my girlie man hands.
:archer2:
Here is my take on even tiller for 3-under.
First off, the pivot point of the grip is below the center line of the bow and the 3 fingers pulling the string are also below the center line of the bow.
Those 2 factors are going to result in the string contacting the lower limb faster than the top limb which causes an imbalance in limb timing.
The main function of tiller is to help both limbs return to brace height at the same time, resulting in less noise and more of the limbs efficiency imparted to the arrow.
I would think that an even or negative tiller would be more beneficial as it would make the bottom limb weaker and therefore slower,allowing both limbs to return to brace at the same speed.
Don't know if that makes sense, but that is my take on it anyway. :)
Don
Alright Don ! Finally someone that knows a bit about geometry and physics The more positive tiller theory does not hold water ! And I don't mean this as an insult to any Bowyer, i want to make that very clear !
To keep it simple just take any length of bendable wood and place its center against your knee with your hands at each end and try and bend it , if all things are equal dimensionally the wood should bend at the center , are we all agreed on that?? Then move the wood off center against your knee and again bend it , voila, the wood bends more on the longer side, so to make it bend equally you have to weaken the shorter limb.This is actually called the" static balance" of the bow. The actual tiller is a moving ( dynamic ) and called the " dynamic tiller ".
As Jim alludes to, when he tillers more positive " sometimes you might have to make some adjustments to the nock point",you shouldn't have to.
When I switched to 3 under in the 80's , i was shooting Silvertips and Paul recommended i send them back for rebalancing. it just happened i was going out west for a vacation , so i brought my "
'Tips and visited Paul and we rebalanced to "o", by weakening the lower limb.The bows were instantly quieter. JMHO.
The best way to see is try an ILF with adjustable tiller , try it both ways. My money will be on the more pos tiller..
Marc;
I agree that an ilf Bow would be a good test , as long as it was done with high speed photography to show the dynamic balance of the limbs in recovery, this would also eliminate any bias or placebo effect. Jack howard , Earl Hoyt and others have already done this and even recommend 1/8 negative balance on short recurves.My money is still on buying bows with negative tiller. by the way Marc ,i do like the looks of your Bows !
if the archer is pulling with equal pressure on all three fingers the lower limb would have to be stiffer to keep the limbs timed.
most people have less pressure on the third finger and are in fact pulling just about the same as a standard pull so even or slight positive tiller works for a lot of three finger under shooters.
black widow is tillering on the assumption that the archer ordering the bow is pulling equally with all three fingers.
So does it change if your primary pressure point is further down the string? I shoot 3 under, and most of the weight is on my middle finger, with a little weight on my ring finger, and very little weight on my index .. . as evidenced by the nifty calluses I am developing.
I am having a bow built currently, and curious what I should be looking for in a tiller. I recently bought a trees shadowhawk that shoots good for me, but we had to raise the nock point, and it has a very definate 'twang' in my hands.
With all due respect the pivot point is above center line!
I shoot 3 under and have been able to get good flight and low noise out of bows originally made for split. It seems to me the 3 under shooter is moving the 'center' of the pulling force down the string versus where the center would be if shooting split. As a result, the upper limb should be worked less to get the same draw length. Hence a lower tiller, perhaps zero, would be in order. Make sense?
I pulled up this thread doing some research as I have recently switched to 3 under. I shoot a couple Widows tillered for split. I ended up having a 5/8 nock point and noisey bows when shooting 3 under. I talked to Roger at Widow today and asked him about the tiller. He advised they will tiller the bows evenly for 3 under and it should fix both the noise and high nock points.