Hey guys,
I'm looking at my next bow being a longbow that's optimized for longer range shots where limb clearance is not an issue, such as spot and stalk hunting or treestands where there's enough room for a long bow and longer shots are more likely. The bow would be between 66-68".
I'm not asking which bow is best, just looking for opinions on what bows I should look at that would be useful in these types of situations. I was thinking something with a long riser.
I've been looking at the 21st Century bows, as well as Big River. I would like to consider the Fox Triple Crown as an option, but they're out of my price range. Was wondering about a Mohawk, but thought that may be the same kind of situation I was in with my Northern Mist where it was a bow that shot really well, but that I really wouldn't find advantageous in different hunting situations than my 64" D/R longbow.
I would prefer it to string up to a "D" but that's not essential.
Any opinions on bows to look at would be much appreciated!
Craig
do add mohawk to your consideration list.
I was thinking that a 68" Mohawk might do well for this type of thing Rob...what length riser do they have?
A 66" Mahaska, I have 2 one46#@28 the other 54#, both are smooth and cast an arrow well. I also have a 66" Mikuta R/D @45# that really spits an arrow. Of course you can always go with a Hill 66"-72". Lots of bows out there that will fill your needs. You should shoot as many as you can and then decide.
QuoteOriginally posted by Arrow4Christ:
I was thinking that a 68" Mohawk might do well for this type of thing Rob...what length riser do they have?
i don't know what the riser/limb geometry will be, vince is working it all out now. mine is the first mohawk classic he's building, a kinda prototype with trapped actionboo cores/veneers, solid cocobolo riser and all overlays, black glass for back and belly, laced leather locator grip, fullerplast matte finish. strictly a ground hunting longbow. if it works for me, as i expect it will, there'll be another twin in the making but it'll be a t/d for flyout hunts.
Seven Lakes makes a very smooth 66 inch longbow. I sold mine and got a Mohawk and wish I had it back.
Ask Mike to trap the limbs toward the back, A bows powerstroke comes from the compression (belly) side. Reducing mass weight is very effective toward the back.
Joshua
There are a lot of guys around here building some mighty fine selfbows. Sounds to me like that would do the trick for you. Get a piece of Hickory or Osage and turn'em loose on it. Or better yet, learn how yourself.
If you've seen Howard Hill make those 100 yard shots, you know you need to get one of those Hill longbows. Just work on your split-vision shooting and get your gap down. Distance estimation is also key or you can get a range finder.
QuoteOriginally posted by Magwa45:
If you've seen Howard Hill make those 100 yard shots, you know you need to get one of those Hill longbows. Just work on your split-vision shooting and get your gap down. Distance estimation is also key or you can get a range finder.
magwa45, i sure hope you were joking with yer post.
trad bowhunters need to get SERIOUS about their shooting abilities and shot distances at game. ain't no one in their right mind should be taking 100 yard shots let alone half that distance with a stickbow ... unless they're THAT GOOD.
as to mr. hill and his long range kills, who knows how many critters he wounded or flat out missed. howard was good, but he was human and therefore not THAT good.
limit yer shots on game to the distances you have a high confidence in hitting the spot. the rest, let walk.
Should've mentioned, I'm interested in something with at least some D/R unstrung for extra performance. I like the idea of a long Mohawk or a 21st Century, tough decision. keep the ideas coming!
craig
Yep, get a Mohawk if you want a smooth shooting and hard hitting longbow. Quality is exceptional also. :thumbsup:
since yer asking for opinions ...
besides a nice 21st century nova, i've owned and extensively shot a pair of 21st edge longbows. the edge is an aggressive 'stealth' r/d longbow that has a braced 'D' limb shape. a fast longbow that's won world ifaa championships (why the 'ringer' edge longbow is allowed in ifaa shoots is another matter). the reason i got rid of the edge bows is that the limbs were like rubber band noodles when braced, and would 'collapse' too easily, or the string would pop off the tips. there are a few other folks making these kinda 'stealth' longbows and the limbs all exhibit that same kinda funky limb action when braced. i couldn't deal with that, so they all got sold.
a mohawk isn't as fast or hi-performance as an edge because it's a mild r/d limb design, which imo yields more 'stability' during release and follow through. yeah, i'm biased towards 'hawks.
There we go Rob! That's the kind of opinions I'm lookin for :)
ttt
I hit the milk bottle at 80 metres the other week with my 70", 78# Howard Hill Wesley Special.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Kleinig:
I hit the milk bottle at 80 metres the other week with my 70", 78# Howard Hill Wesley Special.
ben, did ya need to buy a milk bottle hunting tag? :D
Were you aiming at the milk bottle?
The road frontage on my property is 340 feet. I set my 24 inch square bag target at one end the other day and walked to the other end. Shot 6 arrows, hit it twice and the other 4 were walking in short. If I wasn't too lazy to practice that range, I believe I could hit it pretty consistantly, and I'm far from a good shooter. Either one of those two that hit would have killed a deer. The others would have run him off. I wouldn't shoot at anything I wanted to kill at that distance. But I wouldn't judge someone else who thought they could make the shot that did. Doing so makes you sound kind of pompous and judgemental, at least to me.
The most forgiving and accurate longbow that I have ever shot was a 68" 51 lb. slight r/d reverse handle bamboo custom made by Mike Ballenger. It had the belly side wider at the ends than the back, no shock, no vibration, and very tolerant of arrow spine, it shot pretty quick as well. I gave it to a friend who has since been very successful with it. I bought it from a nearby archer used and I have never seen another one like it, but it is a great bow.
for almost all, if not all trad bowhunters, 'long range' (whatever the distance is that you can't at least group arras on a pie plate) is just fun stuff but hasn't a thing to do with hunting. :readit:
Before I post this I want everyone to understand so as not to take it the wrong way! I realize that good shooting is in the hands of the shooter and not the bow and that a great archer can shoot a crappy bow much better than an average archer could shoot a great bow. I also realize that any quality bow will outshoot almost any archer, and certainly myself!
However, what I'm looking for here is something that's exceptionally and inherently forgiving and stable for hunting situations where longer shots are more likely and I need all that forgiveness/stability I can get. Something that I'll use in more open situations than the longbow I already have, which I find exceptionally suited to close/mid-range shooting where quick pointability is more important to me. My goal in traditional archery has always been to be a proficient shot out to 50 yards, and I am not there yet, and don't expect a bow to get me there...but I want ultimate confidence in the forgiveness and stability in this particular bow to shoot out to the edges of my current effective range.
Craig
The bow you shoot best at twenty yards will be the bow you shoot best at fifty yards ,IMHO.
HATCHCHASER,
I agree with you, but I still feel that different bows are suited to different situations. For example, I may carry one bow because it's light, points quickly for quick shots, and shoots flat through brush...but I may have another bow that takes me longer to get a shot off, but is more stable and forgiving for those longer shots where limb clearance is not an issue.
Craig
21st Century has been in hands that won more titles than any other brand of longbow.That should tell you something about there shooting qualities. :)
Mohawk. bentpole is biased too :saywhat: :goldtooth:
QuoteOriginally posted by Arrow4Christ:
... what I'm looking for here is something that's exceptionally and inherently forgiving and stable for hunting situations where longer shots are more likely and I need all that forgiveness/stability I can get. Something that I'll use in more open situations than the longbow I already have, which I find exceptionally suited to close/mid-range shooting where quick pointability is more important to me....
HAH!
fall in line, there are thousands of archers or would-be archers asking the same things you are. if there was a direct magical answer to your question that would give you precisely what yer asking for, the answer could only come from ... God Almighty.
getting the opinions of others is fine as long as you realize the onus will always fall on you to do the final testing and verification of such cliams. a don quixote quest if ever there was one. trust me - been there, done that, SO over it all. the arrow trumps the bow, and you the archer trumps all of your gear. the bow is far less significant than either.
we are all different entities and little experiments of one, and one man's ceiling is another man's floor.
good luck on your quest - you may find the journey somewhere between agonizing to enlightening ... it all depends on how you wish to view your expedition.
My 66" and 68" Howard Hill bows will do everything that you are asking a bow to do. I have actually started practicing 40 to 50 yd. shots, not for hunting, but for 3-d shoots. Occasionally a club will set up a large 3-D target(buffalo, elk, carabu, etc) at longer distances to challenge the participants and to provide a different perspective. I happen to believe that you can improve on your shorter shots by practicing the longer ones. Problems with form, release, spine, etc are magnified and more easily recognized at longer distances. Good luck in your search.
Rob,
I understand that, and I was hoping I made that clear with my introduction to the post, but I guess I didn't. I realize there is no one bow that does all these things best, which is why I'm simply looking for opinions on which bows to look at and try out for what I'm looking for.
Believe me I agree that the arrow is the most important piece of equipment when it comes to lethality and accuracy! And I am very meticulous with the arrows I build for myself and even more so with the arrows I build for others.
Craig
it used to bug me that trad 3d shoots would have foam game out past 35 yards or so - totally unrealistic in the real world of trad bowhunting. but now i think, good - a humbling experience to show us all that trad bowhunting means getting in close and knowing yer consistent accuracy.
A bow that is really good at the longer stuff, I shot one but never owned one, is the 66" Stotler recurve. I don't even know if they are still available, but they really put out an arrow with authority. Taking long shots is fun as long as it is reasonable or small game where you either hit or missed anyway. I shot a pheasant once at 76 yards, point on with my Schulz. I love stump shooting at my maximum ranges, that pheasant just happened along on a day when I was having more fun stump shooting than deer hunting.
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
...made by Mike Ballenger. ...
Another won over by Seven Lakes I see. Under-rated bows.
Joshua
Thanks for the advice Mike...I've already picked my favorite recurves after going through quite a few and I really prefer longbows, at least right now. My favorite bow is a fairly high D/R longbow at 64" with a locator grip. Just want something with that longbow feel that I can pull out in different situations.
Craig
I was shooting at the oval with two mates: Dave (shooting a PSA) and Matt (shooting an ACS). I'd actually been missing the milk bottle all afternoon at only 30 metres, but only by an inch or two. My mates kept joking about how my Hill bow (to them) is about as comfortable as putting a string on a gum tree and trying to launch an arrow from it. When Matt put the milk bottle out at 80 metres, I told them, "Fellows, to shoot this target, you need a Hill longbow. A Hill longbow is the only bow capable of hitting targets at this range, because of the magic put into them by Howard after that 185 yard elk." I aimed way-up above that bottle, and for about five minutes the arrow sailed beautifully through the air, and finally smacked the milk bottle perfectly! I let-out an Indian war whoop, and packed my bow away, as I'd run-out of good shots. My mates were dumbfounded, and they missed.
In a D shape longbow I like my 66" Mohawk...its a real nice shooter when I feel like sooting that style of bow. Lately I've been partial to my Toelke Whip and Pronghorn but I wouldn't hesitate to use the Mohawk..don't have my Big Five any longer but that was a nice shooter too
You mentioned Big River.
I love mine and the only problem I have with long range shots is me!!! :knothead:
I know they are not as main stream as Mohawk but if you order one today, John will probably have it done in 3 weeks. He builds bows because its a passion not a job. Every one shoots like it too.
One of my personal favorites for long shots is a 21st century. I have a good friend that has a 66" stotler. With his method of aiming compared to his other bows he will shoot high. He shoots at 50 and 60 yards frequently. He aims lower when using the stotler. I'm sure there are other bows that are comparable or maybe better.
Seriously, I know I can make a 40 yard shot, no problem. Using split-vision, 40 yards is my point on. Just put the arrow tip on the target and when I do my part, I can hit at 40 without fail. Just have to practice it regularly.
I would look for a fast and stable longbow which can cast light arrows (8-9 grains/lbs) without handshock or vibrations. It should deliver over 190 fps with 9 grains/lbs.
In this way you will end up with a hybrid design. Like Fox triple crown or Cari-bow Peregrine.
You could also consider to use a fast string (like SBD strings) and use carbon arrows because they are light, weigh all the same, have the same spine tolerance and have no differences between them. At long ranges a small difference will be magnified. A fast string and 9 grains/lbs should get you around 190 fps.
Then you have to train a lot on long distances, because it is not only the bow, its the archer too!
I shoot here in the Netherlands 3d only. I shoot till 55-60 yards, so I know where I am talking about. By now I can hit easily the yellow circle at 40 yards (training). I shoot with a mildly R/D longbow, buth with the measures I took (fast string/light arrows) it shoots around 190 fps now.
However, I need the kind of bow I just mentioned. So I ordered myself a Cari-bow Peregrine for this purpose. It's really fast and dead quiet in the hand i understood. At our 3D tournaments, there are always branches in the way, you seldom have a free shot. A flatter trajectory (faster arrow) helps you to shoot trough the holes. When you would have a slower bow (bigger curve) you would only hit the branches and miss the target.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the input!
FD, I agree with most of your assessments except carbon arrows aren't an option right now for me because I build and sell custom wood arrows lol ;) I have been disappointed in the spine consistency of many brands of carbon arrow, and truly believe that well made wood arrows have the ability to shoot just as well...but it takes a lot more work! At least the first 4 arrows in my quiver are always matched exactly in spine and within 5 grains of weight.
I have basically narrowed down my options to a 68" Mohawk (maybe a 2 piece, thinking maybe that may give a bit more mass and stability) with all boo limbs or a 21st Century Lonestar...I know, very different bows, but I am attracted to both of them for different reasons. I'm gonna give Vince a call and see if he's got a lefty I can test out...
Craig
The Longbow is uniquely suited for Long Range shooting as opposed to any bow that encorporates a higher wrist placement. First, it is more stable but having the arrow above the midpoint of your hand is like shooting with an elevated rest and therefor aids in shooting longer distances.
Howard Hill and his buddies were great long distance shots because they simply practiced longrange shooting all the time. When Howard came to California with his wife they were on a huge cattle ranch up in Barstow. For those of you unfamiliar with this area of California this is high elevated desert and is very flat with few terrain features. Howard met and hung out with the Wilhelm brothers and up that way they basically had two things to shoot at: Jack Rabbits and Cow Pies (dried of course). Those jacks don't allow you to get too close but they cannot see an arrow coming at long range. Because of the lack of terrain features things like cow pies simply became the challenging targets and the farther away the more of a challenge.
One only has to read Pope and Young to learn about the many advantages they found in shooting at game at long ranges from a concealed shooting position. Yes, that was a different time for sure but their logic was still good even for today.
Bottom line is don't do it if you don't also practice it a lot!
QuoteOriginally posted by Arrow4Christ:
Thanks for the input!
FD, I agree with most of your assessments except carbon arrows aren't an option right now for me because I build and sell custom wood arrows lol ;) I have been disappointed in the spine consistency of many brands of carbon arrow, and truly believe that well made wood arrows have the ability to shoot just as well...but it takes a lot more work! At least the first 4 arrows in my quiver are always matched exactly in spine and within 5 grains of weight.
I have basically narrowed down my options to a 68" Mohawk (maybe a 2 piece, thinking maybe that may give a bit more mass and stability) with all boo limbs or a 21st Century Lonestar...I know, very different bows, but I am attracted to both of them for different reasons. I'm gonna give Vince a call and see if he's got a lefty I can test out...
Craig
That's funny. I must admit however that not all carbon is spine consistent when you test it that is. When you shoot it I can't notice much difference.
To tell you the truth: for my new bow, which will be 45lbs@29" I will use 5/16 50-55 Sitka Spruce shafts. I heard some great stories about Sitka Spruce; very consistent in weight, very straight and a 30 inch arrow with a 100 grains fieldtip will give me 9.6 grains/lbs. On my new bow that means over the 190 fps. That will do!
BTW: if you want more mass: I use a bowquiver for that!
Here you see me at a tournament shooting at a bear which was on 60 yards. Had it with my first arrow.... The hairs on my arm still rise when I think about that shot.....
I don't care much for the idea of commonly taking unduly long shots at game, but I do feel that long range proctice can be very beneficial to hunting. To get good at the longer distances, an archer has to really bear down and concentrate. Correct form, picking your spot, and releasing smoothly become paramount in developing consistency at the longer distances. Then when shots drop back into more normal hunting distance, the improved shot discipline often has you stacking arrows on top of each other. Besides, it is just plain fun to launch arrows at a ridiculously long range.
You are partly right. When you trained a lot on 50 yards, 20 yards LOOKS rediculousy easy. However, if you havn't practiced this distance some time and only 50 yards, you'll shoot all your arrows plain over the target.
Therefore I practice all distances during a training-session. I have really fun in shooting one arrow at 10 yards, second on 20, thrd on 30, 4th on 40, and so on. I repeat this many times. When there is a distance I am not secure with, I practice that a bit sole.
In this way you keep in touch with all the different distances...., for each distance has its own challenge....
I regularly shoot yardages out to 60 yds. I truly enjoy the long yardages just because its so very amazing to watch the arrow fly then as if by magic drop into the target and when I've done everything correctly they are centered.
As season approaches I increase the number of shots taken from 20 yds and under but I still allow myself the pleasure of watching the arrow fly from the non-hunting yardages too, just not nearly as many.
JWID
God bless,Mudd
You are wright, seing the arrow fly over a long distance and then, eventually hitting the target, is very enjoyable.