Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: kawika b on July 15, 2006, 05:19:00 AM
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i read about this on another trad site. anyone here has experience footing carbons? any tips?
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yep - i foot mine with brass inserts and steel adaptors - plenty of strength and weight up front. :p :saywhat: :D
seriously though - i cant see any reason to use other materials like wood - whats the point?
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The "footing" he is referring to is a piece of aluminum shaft glued o the point end of the arrow. It is really an "outsert" type of thing. The aluminum sleeve serves to reinforce the shaft where they tend to break the most, in back of the insert. The setup also does away with mushrooming of the point and insert when you hit a hard object like a rock or hardwood tree (I have lots of shagbark hickory on my property). It makes even the toughest carbons moreso. I've been doing it for years and it has never failed....that is to say, when using a footed carbon I have yet to have either the breakage or the mushrooming happen. If you do a lot of stump shooting it is a very good idea.
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Dr. Ashby and I have been playing with footing carbon shafts for awhile now, in fact he's in the bush testing some as we speak. It appears many of the broadhead failures where bone is encountered in realty start as shaft flexing/failure just behind the head. The best footing would be shaped just like they are in wood arrows, transition from stiff to weak over 4-6". Just running something inside (or outside) that stops abruptly just moves the weak area from one spot to another.
A combination of aluminum and or carbon could be used and done in a telescoping way to transition the stiffness and would make the shafts even toughter then they currectly are. There is a company called Aerospace Composites that makes carbon tubes and solid carbon rods of various sizes if someone wants to experiment with it. Their web site is: http://www.acp-composites.com Something we've seen too using existing "tuned" shafts, the added weight up front doesn't effect tuning much cause it also stiffens the shaft for a net trade off. Helps in getting very high FOC balance which is a good thing too. Something to play with that appears to have huge benefits, if for nothing more then stump shooting! :) .....O.L.
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I use the axis 340 with 2 100gr inserts inline and when I have an arrow failure it's always from a field point bending on a hard impact and starting a splinter that runs the length of the shaft, I'm going to try a small sleeve like your describing, the combination should make for a very tough arrow.
my arrows weigh 655gr. and fly great.
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What size alum. shaft would fit over a goldtip?
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Mike:; That's hard to say. I've gone to a local proshop to see what fits. Often they will give you their leftovers from trimming shafts. I have a fairly large selection of old bent alluminms and there are often many bent ones in the lost bucket at most ranges.
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I've been slipping 2117s over the business end of my Beeman 400s. Like Bill stated, just pick up a few bent or broken arrows in different sizes at a shoot, I use about 3", there great for stumpin and they come out of the 3D targets alot easier. I've even "footed" some of my busted woodies with them.
Gene
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I have just received a dozen Beman MFX Classic arrows and interested in "footing" them, does anyone know what size aluminum shaft would fit them..Thanks.
Gil
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By the way, The arrows are 400's and my 2117 are too loose.Thanks again.
Gil
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Gil,
2020s for the regular axis
2018s for the wood grained bemans
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Measure the OD of your shafts and then use the "arrow fitting chart" on the "how to" section here to determine what will fit.
Also, take a reloaders deburring tool to taper down the outside so there isn't a square edge hitting your riser. The taper gives it a smooth transition.
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Dan,
You must be an engineer :D . I did almost the EXACT same thing; miked the o.d. of the carbon but calculated the i.d. of the aluminum with (20/64)-.020 or .018" and ran them thru my RCBS power station...
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Gil,
Those alum shafts will give you just enough room for a nice thin layer of epoxy. If I was going to be home more than a day at a time in the next 3 weeks, I would post a pic of how they look finished.
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How are you attaching the pieces of aluminum? I'm interested in trying this, but I'm a little confused at this point.
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I have done this to my Axis 500 shafts. A 1916 shaft is a perfect fit. I use a 1.5" piece of 1916.
First I cut the 1916 to size and deburr the edges with reloaders case mouth deburring tool. I bevel the rear edge with the same tool. Then I slip the footing over the end of the shaft until it is just a hair beyong the end of the arrow. I use a few wraps of masking tape on the shaft at the base of the footing. (don't tape the footing to the shaft) I remove the footing and rough up the surface of the shaft with some sandpaper and wipe it clean. I mix up a small batch of JB Weld and run a generous bead of it almost to the end of the shaft. I then slip the footing back over the shaft and twist the footing, going back and forth on the shaft until the epoxy is pretty evenly distributed and the footing is up against the tape. Lastly I take 1 well oiled field tip and tighten it down. It crushes the footing into the tape and locks everything in place. Wipe off any excess epoxy and let it set up. Remove the tape after the epoxy is cured.
I have abused the hell out of these shafts and have never had a footing come loose. I broke 1 shaft by accidentally shooting the shaft into a piece of hardened steel. It broke mid shaft. Shots into rocks and cinder blocks have yielded no damage.
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Great description Jaeger. I used 24 hour epoxy.
Each spine takes a different aluminum; also, I found the plain 400 took a different shaft than the wood grained 400.
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Dan and Steve,
Thanks for the info.Will look forward to your how to Steve, if you can find the time.Thanks again.
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Jaeger,
Very nice instructions.I will try it as soon as I can find a 2018 here somewhere.
Gil
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I did this on some wood arrows so i could shoot the DART system.....i just hate the adaptors they sell but i never thought about trying it on carbons.
I think what O.L. said would be the best....having the alluminum cut like the hardwood footing for wood shafts are...just makes sence that it would spread out the shock.
O.L. have you done this yet? and do you have pictures of one of the shafts Dr. Ashby is useing? Could i do the two splice or would i need to do the four?
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Thanks for the instructions. I'll try this ASAP
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mikecc 2117 is what I use on goldtips. Works very well.
Ken
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I use 24 hour epoxy to glue the alum outsert to the carbon shaft. I have not had a carbon arrow break since I did this. I use them for stump shooting and hunting both. The alum shaft outsert also added about a extra 100 gr up front. No need for brass inserts etc.....Go to a local archery shop and maybe they have some alum that they have cut off when making up arrows. I think a 2216 will work. I use 1916 alum over some small dia carbons that I had in my shop and no longer the mfg had any outserts to sell me. so I made my own. The current carbons I think the 2216 would fit.
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For the 5/16ths dia. carbons which are GTs, Carbonwwods and a bunch of others a 2114 works perfect. Shawn
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Axis makes a carbon shaft that is wrapped in metal for the full lenth and they call it Full Metal Jacket. I have shot a few and they are heavy and tough but they cost an arm and a leg.The footing with left over al. sounds better. Tom
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They work well. It takes a little time to make them up but it's worth it. Makes 'em tough as nails!
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Has anyone lengthened and added weight with a footing?
ie: grind a field point square and epoxy it into the carbon shaft and then epoxy the aluminum footing with an insert over the end.
Would lengthen the shaft ~1.5" and add 60-maybe 120 grains before you glue on the footing.... Add a steel or brass insert vs the aluminum one and you're adding a bunch of weight up front.... Maybe as much as 300+ grains once you finally screw a point into the end.
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This works the other way to. I had some 100 grain brass inserts from three rivers and a busted 3555 gold tip so I cut the gold tip in 1 1/4 inch pieces glued the brass inserts into the carbon then glued the whole thing into some 2117s add a 125 tip now I can shoot them out of my long bow.