Ok...so shoot me. I'm going to try hard to up my FOC. After talking to Doc Ashby he convinced me to try to get higher foc. I'm only 23%.
We laughed that it seems we begged for heavier carbons... now we have them, but till we get all the EFOC front weight, we've now end up with some very heavy shafts. Mine are over 615 gr. and I need mroe front weight and stiffer spine.
I'm shooting GT5575's now, but can't seem to get more'n 275 front weight w/out going weak. My riser is cut 3/16 past center and I shimmed it out 3/16 to center.
Not a lot of shelf left! :)
If anyone knows of a reasonably affordable STIFF , but lightweight carbon shaft, I'd like recommendations?
Thanks!
You could try a GT 75/95 Ultralight and you can use a heavier point to get more FOC.I find that tapered carbons are alittle easier to get more FOC,like AD Nitro Stingers these are stiff and light weight.Nitro stingers come in 4 spines sizes I believe,a yellow label real light for lighter weight bows.Then orange label is alittle stiffer,then green label alitte stiffer and the stiffest is the gold label.
John,
I appreciate that information. I will put that data in the grist mill as others chime in so I have some varied options.
I'm a big fan of OL Adcock's posted "Bare shaft planning method" of tuning arrows.
I've got new limbs coming that are a bit lighter than current ones, but they're carbon/foam core, so they might just require even stiffer spine than what I have now!!!
So many variables. :) And we thought that stick bows were "simple". They are...but they've got a lot of things to tinker with! Gotta love it!
what weight are you pulling?
Avoid wood grain or camo shafts.They add extra weight that you don't need.
When I jump from 5575's to 7595's,I get a lot more FOC but also quite a bit more overall weight.I went from a 5575 weighing 585 grs to a 7595 weighing 709 grs.Most of the weight increase is in front.I believe I went from 21% to 28% FOC.
The GT Entradas are light weight and cheap.It is what I use when I don't want to shoot a log for an arrow.
Hello David
Looks like the CX maxima in 350 is about 8 grains per inch and has a deflection of about 0.350 so its pretty stiff.The 55/75s are around 0.400 or so I believe and are weaker spined.
I think you need something with around 0.350 spine deflection since the 55/75s spine a little over 0.400 and get too soft wiith over 275 grians up front and also the lightest grains per inch you can find.To be stiff enough to shoot out of your bows and still be somewhat light with the EFOC you are seeking.
Maybe around 7 grains per inch of shaft and approximatly 0.350.Not sure if something like thats out thier.Maybe in more of a 3-D type carbon vs hunting style carbon
I just checked the CX website a bit ago and the maxima or maxima hunter? was lighter than most the other ones they had per inch with the stiffness you were looking for.
that one would way approximatly 225 grains as a bare shaft cut to 30 inches and no insert, knocks or fletchings.
I like the GT Ultralight Entradas. I have used the 400's for a 53 lb bow and got 33% FOC and I think 650 gr.
I also use the Entrada 300 for my 71 lb. bow. They are 32.9% FOC and weight 820 gr.
Thanks, Guys. Yeah, JimB, the wood grain or camo really ads the weight.. :(
I've never paid much attention to the deflection but am now... As Eric pointed out...the CX might be good or any other that is around the .340-.350 without adding a lot of gr/inch. Even the black GT 7595 are only 8.9/inch at .340.
I'll have to pay more attention to the CX Maxima.
Richie, I saw that there are several "ultra light" types now on GT's website. I have to see what deflection they are and all that but some are down to Eric's thought of 7.4 gr.
Larry, I'm not pulling much weight and dropping down with the new-to-me limbs on their way soon. Thing is that after researching a lot years back and consulting OL Adcock, I learned that the amount of riser center cut (or past center) really requires much stiffer spine.
I had shafts that were shooting weak bare shaft for me and were shooting really, really STIF for friends. I was pulling then 54# and they were shooting 67#. Difference? Mine was a recurve cut 3/16 past center and they were shooting 13# MORE weight, but out of a longbow cut 1/8" SHY of center. Big difference. More center cut requires stiffer spine per draw weight!
Beman ICS Bowhunter 340 is 9.3 gpi, same as your 55/75, and they dont any more affordable.
Eric
Only other difference on those bows Possibly Dave other than theirs being cut 1/8th shy of center and the 54# er being 3/16th past center.Is that I am thinking thier bows are more traditional longbows being 1/8th out from center and not as effecient as your Morrison curve which is a more high performance bow?
Strings could play a role as well if they were shooting a fat string or possibly B-50.Or vice versa.
Draw length needs to be considered too in the equation.
Your right though about how the deep the sight window is cut into the riser effecting stiffness of the arrow needed and that is quite a bit of difference between what bare shafted weak for you and stiff for them out of bows with a 13 # difference.
Anyway, this is an interesting topic and I am a relative greenhorn with carbon compared to guys who have more experience testing all these parameters in search of the perfect carbon arrow and EFOC.
I am happy and impressed with what I have experimented with so far but have not shot as much weight up front as many guys do.I will be looking into it more.Especially for larger game.I am probably looking at trying a 0.350 or so deflection arrow with more weight up front soon.
Checked CX, GT and Beeman's sites tonite. Nobody has much that is below 8.2 gr. in the .340/.350 deflection.
GT Vapors are below that, but I've never heard of them or how they hold up... don't want something that is fragile as that would also defeat the purpose.
Eric, if you get into some .350 Maximas and want to split a dozen...we should talk! :)
We'll have to hook up by phone one day when the boy is not missing his dad and chat about all those other variables on bows! :)
I shoot the Maxima 350's out of 60-65 pound recurves with 100 grain brass inserts and 200 to 250 grain points. Bare shaft well for me when cut to 29". Kinsey's is close to you and sells by the half dozen. I believe Lancaster Archery does too. Not cheap, I think they are about $65 per half dozen, but I have found them to be very durable.
Regarding arrow strength....
My GT Ultralight 300 has a 3" 2117 footing under a 1.5" 2317 footing, 100 gr. brass insert and 330 grain field point. Like I mention, 820 gr. at 32.9% FOC.
Today I shot that arrow with 71 lbs. into a 3/4" sheet of steel. The brass insert collar and field point shaft broke off. The arrow is 100% unhurt. I feel sure it was due to the protective footings. And now it is good to go.
Victory makes the V-Force HV shafts really, really light, and there's also the CT Cheetahs, close out Easton Lightspeeds, GT ultralights, etc.
Ultra-light carbon shafts are out there, but they are very brittle and will crack in all the wrong places. Keep a good eye on them always...
Can't beat the ICS bowhunters for the money, though now that CX raised the cost on the Terminator Lites.
Looks like the maxima cut to 29.5 with fletchings and nock approximatly 35 grains would be 260 grains.Add 300 up front for 560 grain finished arrow.Maybe a 50 grain brass insert with 100 grain screw in steel broadhead adapter and 150 grain head glued on.Or 75 grain steel screw in insert,100 grain brass insert and 125 grain glue on head.
Its 65 grains lighter anyway than your currant setup and gives you alot of weight up front.I have no idea what % forward of center this arrow would have?
Sure Dave we will have to chat it up sometime and I will be in the market for some arrows in late summer as hunting season approaches and if we can pair on a dozen that would be great.
I am kinda looking at these CX piledrivers a bit right now.But that would be a really heavy arrow loaded up with EFOC.Heavier than what we are speculating about here anyway.10.5 grains per inch or so.
Some of these lighter GPI shafts may very well be very durable when the front end is reinforced as Richie is doing with his.
Carbon Express maxima. Enough said.
Doc,what kind of total arrow weight are you wanting?I think with 7595's you would be looking at 700 grs or a little over.
I have a 53# recurve cut 3/16" past center and am shooting Vapor Pro 300's out of it.That sounds incredibly stiff but they have 430 grs up front.The Vapor Pro 300's are 8.2 gr per inch-lighter than the 7595's (.340).I ended up with a 714 gr arrow and I think about 29% FOC.The heavy weight isn't as bad as it sounds.When I drop from 714 grs down to 620 grs,I only gain 10 fps.
I have been also eyeballing CT Panthers which are a continuous taper shaft,.340 deflection and I think,8.7-8.5 gr per inch.The inside diameter is parallel,not tapered and they use the standard inserts and nocks as other 5/16" shafts like Gold Tips.They are more expensive at up to $120 per dozen,depending on where you get them.
Last yr. a guy posted on here that he was using Forge Extremes,31% foc and total wt. of 595g.
fwiw and imo ... carbon shaft/arrow spine is subjective at best and lots really depends on how you shoot yer arrows - what your form and physique brings to the shooting equation (important!).
for some folks, messing with front end weight can really make arrows fly BAD. for others, a difference of 200 grains is almost meaningless. dittos for shaft spine.
it all comes downs to trialing/testing. there really is no substitute.
imo, all the arrow making theoretical formulas are at best ballpark attempts.
what works best for me, and maybe not you, is using a much weaker than suggested carbon shaft spine and LOTS of front end weight.
i want a hunting arrow to be at least 10gpp, for good flight, a quieter bow on release, good penetration. if i can distribute a good part of that weight to the front of the arrow, i find the arrow 'tracks' better - i dunno if that efoc thing aids penetration.
for me, it's not rocket science, it's whatever seems to work best ... for me.
as always, ymmv.
When carbons came out everyone that shot them was getting more foc than in the past with wood or aluminum arrows.Even with the light weight points the foc would be higher.Now I know that more is considered better but personally when you get to the point of having to build your riser out so far you are running out of shelf space I honestly think you are not gaining anything.Doing that to just add more point weight is counter productive when you are already shooting enough weight to kill most anything you most likely will hunt.Sometimes we take stuff other than FOC to the extremes. ;) jmho
QuoteOriginally posted by James Wrenn:
When carbons came out everyone that shot them was getting more foc than in the past with wood or aluminum arrows.Even with the light weight points the foc would be higher.Now I know that more is considered better but personally when you get to the point of having to build your riser out so far you are running out of shelf space I honestly think you are not gaining anything.Doing that to just add more point weight is counter productive when you are already shooting enough weight to kill most anything you most likely will hunt.Sometimes we take stuff other than FOC to the extremes. ;) jmho
my 50-55# longbows are all 1/8"+ shy of centershot and my overly low spined 29.5" arrows (ics 500's) have 400 grains up front and no flight issues at all, even without fletching.
the most important part of the arrow/bow match up relationship is you, the shooter.
First, thanks for all the great advice and suggestions by all posters.
Second, special thanks to several for the PM's and kind offers to try varied shafts.
I'll follow up with a over-arching comment to some of Rob's thoughts re: variables. I'm not looking for a formula to put together arrows. I'm looking to learn what arrows are out there that are lighter in weight while still stiff in spine, yet...durable. I want it ALL! Greedy-gut that I am! :)
I am looking for what 90% of you are providing. Input on what durability, combined with spine and overall weight of varied arrows are out there.
I stumbled into GT's many years ago and ended up getting a SWEET deal on 3 doz 5575's I've had untouched for years!
Indeed. Steelhead (eric) also addressed the variables from bow to bow along with Rob's contention of shooter-to-shooter. I've done quite a bit of research (?) with amount of center cut and effect on spine and listened to some whom I trust THEIR research.
Many factors. I have a great set up in my 5575. I don't really want to go over 600 gr. I have now.
I'll be shooting new (to me) longbow limbs for my cheyenne, 45@28 and draw about 47# on them, I'm guessing. Bob tells me they'll spit an arrow with the Carbon/foam core. So I may still be in the same "speed" (relative indicator of performance) as with my current bamboo 48# (50# for me) Recurve limbs.
I like a quiet bow and get goofy to get it. I have become very interested in quiet arrows as well... leading to smaller fletching....which leads to greater FOC to accomodate the smaller fletch... Aayyyeeee! :)
It can be a dizzing ride. Which is why I came here to ask the question: What carbon shafts out there are durable, yet stiff & light?
GT5575 (black) run about 8.9 gr/in. CX Max about 8.2 gr/in. Many of the other suggestions run higher or about the same. You've all given me new ones to research and measure against one another. My GT's are relatively tough. They break, but not easily.
I'm convinced, the more a bow is cut to or past center, the stiffer an arrow spine is required. Makes sense to me. The string is imparting a more direct push and there is no energy spent wraping around the 1/8" shy of center riser. No need for the shaft to be flexible (lower spine/deflection) to deal with the increased paradox.
James, the reason I shimmed out the sideplate was that I learned that the closer to center shot or beyone (Like C-bows)a trad riser is cut, the more critical release becomes and the less forgiving the set up! Ouch! Which is why "they" shoot releases, I guess? 3/16 is a lot past center. It DOES allow a great leeway of tunability, for which I'm grateful, but it does require some effort...and different shafts than I have perhaps!
So I'm striving for a) forgiveness, b)quiet bow and c) quiet arrows. I like weight when shooting the lower poundage to enhance penetration. At 50# now, and 620 gr.---I'm way above 10gpi.
I know not everyone of us agrees on spine vs. center shot, vs. EFOC etc, I am espousing my opinion--- that for me, with my li'l bit of understanding of physics, I believe an object in motion tries to stay in motion and the more weight, the more that is so...
If uncle "Arty Ritis" is going to affect the draw weight I can manage, and i want to hunt, I'm going to try for a reasonably heavy arrow set up. It is what I believe and believe in. Long heavy bullets in single shot pistols of my past tended to move slower but printed the same elevation and delivered more energy on target...they didn't loose as much energy nor drift as much... so in my pea-brain, same with an arrow.
If I'm going to shoot for a reasonably heavy 600 gr. arrow in a 47-50# bow, I'm not going to ignore the EFOC stuff when adding weight... and then desiring quiet flight, I lean toward smaller feather stuff...but to do it...I'm going to need to find a stiffer arrow and not so heavy so what weight i add, I can do up front.
Again, thanks for the great offers from various posters who sent PM's. I'm deeply touched.
Some of the arrows mentioned this last go a round, I've not seen in a while...locally. I'll have to keep an eye out for them or contact some of our sponsors!
Thanks, guys!
Doc,
I've 4 (28") older PSE Carbon Force Hunter, black 300 shafts. They're .340 spine and 8.6 gpi - similar to the newer x-weave models. They're incredibly stiff for my 50# FF recurve with 300 grains out front. Shafts are yours to keep and try if you'll pm me your address. 3-rivers brass inserts fit them, so have at it... How's that for light, stiff, and cheap? Then if you like 'em, order some x-weaves. Also, GT Vapors are very similar if not identical to GT 55/70's in gpi/spine, but with a slick finish and as durable - same inserts fit both. Dick's sporting goods sold them as Vapor "monster buck" arrows,too. And yes, Cut-to-Center variances, make BIG difference in spine/tuning.
I now what you mean when dropping weight Doc.Been there,done that. :) I agree that a finger shooter can not shoot a full centershot bow.I just don't agree with building out a shelf farther than you have to or running out of room as you posted.While closer to centershot does require a stiffer arrow the arrow has to go through less paradox,straightens out quicker and in my oppionion aids in penitration as well.To me increasing paradox even more just to shoot a certain weight on the front is not really gaining that much in a hunting arrow.My goal is to shoot with the most centershot that works well with a stiff shaft and add the weight it takes to make it tune without having to build out the shelf to use a certain weight.Just my 2 cents of course.
I use a 500 Entrada shaft cut to 28.5 and a 200gn points.Gives me an overall weight of 425gns and a foc near 30%.That is 10gns lb for most of my wood bows and seems to work fine.I honestly think that for me to build out the shelves more just to add more point weight,adding paradox would give me no better setup for the deer I hunt.I think good foc is great but I do think that at times we might be giving up something else if trying to acheive a certain weight or FOC that might be just as important. jmo
If you are looking for a lite wt shaft Nitro Stinger Yellow's have a deflection of .350 and have a wt of 6.7 gpi.
Paul,
Thank you on the AD's. I had another recommendation for another of their shaft. I'm keep track of all these good suggestions. :)
James,
I have to take blame for a "tounge-in-cheek" comment...after living with such a deep cut shelf, coming out TO CENTER makes it look like there isn't any...shelf left :) :) Kinda like driving the expressway and getting off on a backroad and 50mph feels like 20!
You make a good sense argument. I started to shim to get closer TO CENTER because of wanting the most forgiving release under adverse conditions out hunting. I can see an occassional arrow do some whoopty whoop at 20 yrds about every 6th or 7th shot...and especially when tired. So gettign away from that critical point where an arrow "doesn't know which way to paradox" coming off the shelf when it's past center, well...just figured I can do without that.
All a crap shoot till the limbs show up, I get back in shooting shape after no place indoors and outside was too hostile this winter... then start testing all over again to build a new set up.
I've got some GREAT ideas and information on varied arrows from everyone's responses!
I failed to note Coilsprings great offer, my apologies, Tim.
Unfortunately, all who have offered varied shafts to try as has Tim, I'm drawing at least 28 1/2- 28 3/4...I tend to over draw on critters and settle so I ALWAYS want at least 1" extra shaft length to keep from slicing off my digits! :knothead: :rolleyes:
Tim, 28" shafts just won't cut it for this ape-armed ole fart! But thank you and others so much for all these generous offers.
GT 5575 and GT7595 are right around 8.2-8.9 gr/in in standard black.
I even KNOW i have squirreled away some 18 or more GlasShafts (fiberglass) that are cut 29 which equated in that # shaft to be 60# spine. They're now too short since I'm doing more back tension...and they're pretty darned heavy straight up!
With DST now in place, it'll still be daylight and I can find them in storage sometime soon and put them up on the Classifieds...maybe find a few BLACK GT7595's to try or trade someone some 5575's for 6 of the stiffer ones. :)
AGain, thanks for the reply, Tim and sorry I missed your kind offer. Mia copa.
No appologies needed Doc, just sorry they're too short for you. I was afraid they might be...
Take care.
Doc, try the Vapor Jets. Blackhawk made them and I think GT continues to make them now.
I shoot the 4000's. they are a 55/70 shaft and weigh in at like 6grs/in. Very, very light and very tough and consistant.
So light that with a 50gr brass insert and 250gr BH they only come in at around 525grs!
Robert, if they're similar to the GT 5575, then the weight isn't a factor, but spine is the critical issue.
I originally was looking to find a lighter weight, but STIFFER arrow than the 5575.
I just can't get enough front weight on them at my 29.5" arrow length to get what I want...
Sorry for the confusion. :)
Current set up is maxed out on point weight for 5575. I need to get a shaft that is stiffer, but I would like to stay around that 600 total grain weight and get 28% FOC.
Not easy when you're cutting shafts 29.5" to bop.