Trad Gang

Just cut a pineapple with my old serrated kitchen cleaver.  Went through effortlessly.  Got me to thinking about broadhead sharpness and if an edge with micro serrations has any advantages over a razor smooth/sharp edge.I have NEVER sharpened the cleaver and it still cuts without any problem.  Just food for thought.

jf

Where the heck did YA get a Pineapple in South Dakota.  ;)

This could be a recap of the sharp V razor sharp.   :scared:

what's that?

I read a study on this topic in a archery mag a few years back! They did a study on the effectiveness of a serrated edge. They concluded that the serrated edge isnt as effective killer of game as a razor edge! The wound channel as well as arteries and veins have a better chance of recovery than they do if they were cut cleanly by the razor edge! The clean severing cut from the razor edge seemed to get the nod as far as blood trails and internal damage was concerned! They did note that the ridgid file sharpened broadheads were a good compromise but did not use that edge in the test which spanned 3-4yrs i think! Notice how they arent around like they used to be)serrated broadheads)!!!

Take the serrated knife and try cutting thru a chuck of RAW meat.  then do the same with a very sharp blade.  Serrations are great for some things, but I don't believe that raw meat is one of them.  Sure   they will cut it, but a razor edge excels.
ChuckC

I spent a lot of years using both straight edge and serated edge knives while hunting and serving in the army.  If you want to cut a rope, fibers, or something that takes a sawing action use a serrated edge.  If you want to cut flesh quickly, cleanly, and with the least resistance use a razor sharp straight edge.

If you are considering a serrated broadhead, better check your state game regs--they are illegal in some states.

Chad

I'll stick with the same kind od blades surgeons use,

I guess I was not referring to the serrated edge, as much as a filed edge.  My error.  I would not knowingly use a serrated edge. Thanks for all the input.

jf

What does a butcher use?  There's yer answer.

the chef

Warrior u changed it on me!!! I wasnt bustin your you know what, just informing! The micro serration or "teeth" like some people use are an excellent killing edge! Its easier for me to achieve that type edge than it is a razor edge as i dont have any fancy sharpening tools, just a Grobet file and a Jewel Stick! Im not just using this edge because im not the best broadhead sharpener, but because its a long lasting edge thats very aggressive and tears at arteries and veins and does alot of damage to an animal! Fred Bear and alot of the old timers loved that edge, and for good reason! It works!!!

I have shot deer using the Fred Bear method, the Louis Armbruster method, the Howard Hill method, my own with a shaving sharp edge then light serration, and just plain shaving sharp.  To be bluntly honest if it is a keen edge it will kill a deer. Not saying that I wouldn't go for the smooth shaving sharp razor edge and more foc balance if I were going after a cape buffalo, but for what I hunt I have seen very little if any difference.  For the fellow that cannot get a shaving edge but he can get a keen filed edge or a keen Howard Hill method sharpened edge, it has been proven to work for better archers than most of us, so do what you feel the comfortable and are the most able to work with.

This all boils down to personal preference. Both a filed edge and a smooth razor edge will kill quickly....if you shoot a big game animal in the chest cavity, does it really matter which causes faster clotting?

My own preference is for micro serrate edges. I get that by using the KME system and don't progress past the coarse stones.

My own opinion is that the serrate/filed edge is more durable on softer steel blades. The finely polished razor edge more appropriate on harder steel... where it can last.

Whatever you chose, get them as sharp as you can.

ChuckC is right on.

Shoot Pinapple with both and see  ;)  I like the filed/serated edge myself.

Super sharp straight edge is the only way to go

The only objection I have to a polished, razor edge is that most BH's won't hold that edge when subjected to less than optimal cutting conditions.  Muddy or wet hide, I've seen what happens to a razor edge on the butchering floor.  I worry about my heads holding an edge all the way through a critter.

I'm a duffer compared th the guys whose opinions you've already heard, but for me I use a rough diamond hone and stop right there.

Both work well and will kill well too. We all have cut ourselves before. If I cut my finger with something razor sharp after I'm done cursing myself, and have held the direct pressure for a bit the bleeding stops and it almost seems as if the cut has been glued back together. That doesn't happen with a blade that has been file sharpened. The flesh won't mend and it just keeps bleeding. That's what I want from my broadhead!  :thumbsup:

I've cut myself on a hack saw and i've cut myself on my razor sharp kitchen knives.  I know which one had me at the hospital...  the razor kitchen knife.     ;)

Yes, that I undrestand. But we aren't really talking about hack saws or chain saw chains. The question is about two different types of really sharp blades. I can shave hair of my arm with a file sharpened Brodhead. Yet its not polished smooth to that razor sharp edge.

QuoteOriginally posted by Drummer@Home:
If I cut my finger with something razor sharp after I'm done cursing myself, and have held the direct pressure for a bit the bleeding stops and it almost seems as if the cut has been glued back together. That doesn't happen with a blade that has been file sharpened. The flesh won't mend and it just keeps bleeding. That's what I want from my broadhead!   :thumbsup:  

An animal can't apply direct pressure to the wound like we can so... just something to think about,

Ron

You guys are funny   :banghead:   Yet, alas each to their own

The way i understand micro serrations as opposed to smooth edge is that the micro serrations have no support in any direction and soon fold/collapse under pressure of cutting.  A smooth edge has support all along itself and holds its edge for much longer.

Yes, a micro serration will take hair off, but that's because the hair goes between the serrations that act like tiny scissors.  If micro serrations were any good at shaving properly then all razors would have them.

I've never lost a single animal because I didn't sharpen my broadhead a particular way.

Never seen a bit of difference in useing a file sharpened head or one polished up like glass.If they are sharp enough to cut a rubber band and pop a few hairs on my arm they will do the trick.With a broadhead you are adding one thing you don't have with a knife edge..speed. jmo

Are scalpels.. or something sharper, obsidian...even slightly serrated.  NOPE

Smooth as glass.  

Why does a razor nick keep bleeding so much after shaving your face?  The cut is so fine that the homeostasis mechanism in the body doesn't recognized it as quick and begin to clot.

Of course both will kill a deer.  But when discussing what is best for bleeding a deer it is as smooth a razor as possible based on plenty of factual data, regardless of one single opinion in the mix.

I'm not sure what you guys mean when you talk about a "durable" edge, doesnt it have to last just one shot? I have always hunted with freshly sharpened heads. Are you saying that just going through the hide will dull it? My experience is limited to deer and small game, although I plan on taking my first hog this year.

Not getting sucked imto this one again.  

My thought's exactly!

I own an inspection laboratory that has inspected razors from the top makers in the world and when you sahve with one what you're actually shaving with is a micro sized burr.  When this burrs begins to breakdown it leaves gaps on the razors edge and those gaps are what pulls your facial hair.  I'll set one up at some point and take a high mag picture for you all to see if your interseted.

Sharp is sharp no matter the method. Both razor sharp and file sharp do the job effectively. Choose your poison. I don't think that either method is going to up your odds of a kill as long as the head is SHARP.

QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
This all boils down to personal preference. Both a filed edge and a smooth razor edge will kill quickly....if you shoot a big game animal in the chest cavity, does it really matter which causes faster clotting?

That's my thought on the subject too. If the deer is alive long enough that the wound has a chance to start clotting, I obviously didn't put my arrow where it belonged.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uncle Buck:
I'm not sure what you guys mean when you talk about a "durable" edge, doesnt it have to last just one shot? I have always hunted with freshly sharpened heads. Are you saying that just going through the hide will dull it? My experience is limited to deer and small game, although I plan on taking my first hog this year.

It has to last one shot passing through dirty hair, flesh and possibly touching bone.

None of my broadheads will hold a scalpel polish through that kind of abuse.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
If the deer is alive long enough that the wound has a chance to start clotting, I obviously didn't put my arrow where it belonged.

Dang, you ARE as smart as Charlie says you are    :D

Nice post.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.  Honestly!!

I have never lost a deer to a dull broadhead. I have lost 2 to poor shot placement.  In 30 years of hunting, that ain't all that bad.

Lots of opinions.  Thanks again.

justin

Let's say you stab someone with a knife that has not been sharpened for a long time. It's not necessarily dull, but it ain't sharp either. Some veins will be opened, others will just collapse, making the blood clot. With a razor sharp knife, all veins and arteries that the blade passes through, will be sliced open and blood will be allowed to flow freely. So, I'd say get them as sharp as you possibly can.

QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
[QB] Are scalpels.. or something sharper, obsidian...even slightly serrated.  NOPE

Smooth as glass.  

WRONG!

Every cutting surface has SOME type of serrations. Or else it wouldn't cut. Weather they are large, medium or microscopic....metal, flint, obsidian, agate, all have razor sharp edges......ask my band aids.

I have talked to Richie and he is a super guy. I'm going to disagree with him though.

Fido dog,
Ok...that is probably true.  I guess I am just thinking naked eye serrations.


Here is the best information I have seen but would love to see others as well.

 http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/ashby_getting_an_edge_on_success.pdf

direct pressure of the shaft on the wound and shortened clotting time created by a sharp but rough, ragged cutting edge; can result in hemorrhagic sealing, or near-sealing, of even substantial wounds; significantly retarding onset of physiologic shock and ensuing
collapse. At the best this means a longer blood trail of lesser degree. At the worst it means an animal mortally wounded and not
recovered

According to (the man)Doc A, let me be the first to say I may be worong on this one.   :knothead:   Sharp but rough cuts still seem to hurt more though

QuoteSharp but rough cuts still seem to hurt more though

No doubt there.

From what my pea brain can muster and what I read, I think that is why the rough cut may clot quicker.  The body is well aware it needs to mend the situation.  The super fine cuts we get seem to bleed more because maybe they are less detected by our system and clotting takes longer.

QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
 

QuoteSharp but rough cuts still seem to hurt more though

No doubt there.

From what my pea brain can muster and what I read, I think that is why the rough cut may clot quicker.  The body is well aware it needs to mend the situation.  The super fine cuts we get seem to bleed more because maybe they are less detected by our system and clotting takes longer. [/b]

I cut my leg while slicing a piece of Balsa wood for a model airplane when I was younger. I didn't even know it until I noticed my jeans were red. I still can look at the scar 25 years later.

That's not really the question, though.  The question is, does that polished edge hold up on it's trip through the animal?

I don't think there's any question that a scalpel edge cuts better than a file edge.  The question I have is, for how long?  It's not like you could discard your scalpel and grab a new one once past the hide of an animal (which is what a surgeon would do while operating).

Maybe I worry too much, but my experience while butchering is that a polished edge gets dulled much, much faster than a rougher edge.

That's true a filed edge does seem to hold its sharpness longer. Unless a Deer is feeding away from you and you aim for the bull's-eye and aspect a pass threw out the nose??   :scared:   Never mind that wont work   :banghead:  Just kidding

Like I said, it's entirely possible that I worry too much...

QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
  The question is, does that polished edge hold up on it's trip through the animal?

Yep....is sure does...shot animals with Aces, WWs, Abowyers, Simmons, Silver Flame, and MANY Zwickeys that were sharp enough to shoot at another animal after passing through one.

Thanks Terry.  I've dulled a polished edge on a knife by walking too close to a muddy carcass...

It seems like regardless of how small the serrations are, they are small bumps on the edge of a blade and would be more vulnerable about breaking off.  The smooth polished edge is all one continuos blade. As Terry points out, It really has nothing measureable to break off or dull as it slides through an animal.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Maybe I worry too much, but my experience while butchering is that a polished edge gets dulled much, much faster than a rougher edge.

My experience from 7 years as a chef, and speaking to many butchers, is that a straight polished blade holds up far better than a rougher one.

In the catering trade it's all about speed and time.  If a rough edge was more efficient and lasted longer then caterers - chefs butchers etc., would have realised this a long time ago and would be using these edges today.  They don't, they use smooth sharp edges for everything except bread knives, because they are the most efficient and last longest between sharpenings.

Just my opinion from working in hotels and restaurants.

Cut up an ox heart with a serrated blade and then do it with a smooth polished razor edge, the razor edge will whiz through it without any effort while the serrated edge needs continuous sawing action.

freefeet,

That's not been my experience at all.  I keep my kitchen knives sharp, but I also have a steel handy for touch ups.

We butcher four to five beef a year and a dozen hogs or so for family and friends.  When I am skinning and doing the rough cutting on an animal, a stoned edge (and a slightly steeper taper) lasts many times longer between sharpenings than a mirror edge.  Now, when I get to the trim table and all I am cutting is clean meat on a cutting board, then a scalpel edge is great.  Less effort means fewer chances for my blood to end up on the table!

Can't argue with the experience in this thread concerning broadheads. If the head is coming out the other side still scary sharp, then that's all you can ask.

Posted this on another thread dealing with the "sharp" debate. Hope it helps.

I am a meat cutter by trade and while no doctor I would like to add. First off when I attended my meat cutting course our instructor taught us how to use his wheel grinder to sharpen our knives. Using this method I was able to get my knifes so sharp that the mere wieght of the blade on my leg would shave the hair right off. However another student in my course was never quite able to figure the system out, and as a result his blades rarely shaved hair. During our course we were required to "stick" live animals. These included Pigs, Cattle and Lamb. We each would have a set day when we would be the "sticker". I can say that without a doubt, the shaving edge caused more bleeding for a far longer period. When I stuck my critter the blood would gush out and when we pumped their legs after, very little blood remained to be drained. When my classmate stuck his he did not get quite the same amount of gushing, and pumping the legs always resulted in large spurts of blood. I believe this was due to his duller cuts clotting at a faster rate than mine before the animal died of blood loss. We each stuck our animals in the same spot with the same model of blade and our animals were often of same body size. We killed over 100 animals in our course and the results were always the same.

A jagged edge leaves a jagged edge on the blood vessels that it cuts. This means greater surface area, which is more area for platelets to stick to and begin forming a platelet plug (clot). Razor sharp hands down. Don't believe me...then go cut your finger with each type (make sure to hold both wounds open - you might get a false result if the razor cut is allowed to collapse) and see which stops first.

.....and if the razor edges doesn't bleed the most...you may need to try it again.

Jeff... edge durability comes from a combo of 'steel and angle'.  Not whether its serrated, micro serrated, or polished.

Yesterday i tested my kitchen knife.  Sharpened up to 1200 diamond stone and then stropped with jewellers rouge on leather for a sweetly polished edge that shaved without popping.

I then diced a whole bull's heart on a plastic chopping board, cutting down onto the chopping board on each pass.  Then finely diced two onions on same chopping board.  And then finely diced 6 tomatoes without any snagging or deformation on the skins of the toms as the knife went through them - which i think says a lot about the durability of a razor honed edge.

This isn't the greatest of knives either (£15).  From all my knives i think this one loses its edge the quickest.

For me the tomatoes are the ultimate test.  That a cheap kitchen knife can still do that to a tomato after the abuse of the plastic chopping board gives me a lot of confidence in sharpening my broadheads to the same level.

I have previously file sharpened this knife (when i haven't had time to sharpen it properly and just wanted to eat) and it doesn't hold up at all once the microserrations left by the file hit the chopping board, they just fold over.

Just my experience.

QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
.. edge durability comes from a combo of 'steel and angle'....  

I think this is a point that does not get mentioned a lot. I can use my own mis-sharpened Grizzlies as an example of razor sharp broadheads that lost that "edge" (literally and figuratively) on contact. As a woodworker I know when an edge is sharp and when an edge is done "right" so it holds that edge. I am fortunate in that this vocational experience helped me recognise that even though off the strop my BH was sharp, it was not really suitable for hunting.
My long winded point is its worth knowing what angles and what steels are best.
And if we are going to test edges cutting stuff in the kitchen why not use our broadhead instead. Then we'd know something..

Joshua

QuoteOriginally posted by jhg:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
.. edge durability comes from a combo of 'steel and angle'....  

I think this is a point that does not get mentioned a lot.  [/b]

Yep!

QuoteOriginally posted by jhg:
And if we are going to test edges cutting stuff in the kitchen why not use our broadhead instead.

No need.  My point was that a file sharpened edge isn't as durable as a polished edge - same blade, edge angle being equal.  It doesn't matter what blade you do it with you'll get the same results.

I meant to find out how well the BH itself holds an edge. I might do that, since I don't hunt a lot of other game besides elk and deer.

J-