Trad Gang

I have a topic that I wanted to present to TG. I was at work the other day and 2 ppl I work with were having a "discussion" of sorts when I walked by. They were talking about baiting deer, hogs, bear, etc. Naturally 1 was for and the other against. Knowing that I was an avid hunter, well, I got pulled in.

    Now 1st off, Im stating baiting in the legal sense.  Where state laws LEGALLY ALLOW it. Not deer jacking!!!

    Well one was saying its totally immoral and that it is def not fair chase. The other, stated if local law allows then why not.  Thats where it turned to me.  

    Now I will say up front I do not judge hunters either for or against any form of legal hunting. There is just types that I do not personally care for so I will not do it. But to each is own.

    I stated to the person opposed to it "Have you ever hunted in a corn field, over a big fall of acorns, near a farm area where live stock are fed or an apple orchard?" Well my friend, you are hunting over bait. Natural, but it is still bait. He looked away because I know he has hunted corn fields and so have I.

    I then went on to say that, me personally, I would not use those deer canes or stuff like that that "chums" the area. That is just me.

    The opposer went on to say " you hunt with a recurve, isnt that sorta hipacritical."

    I stated def not. All the way back to early native americans, they used ways to "trick" the game. we are just taking what they learned and used it.

  I just wanted input from you guys. My take on things is if you are abiding by hunting regs and are enjoying yourself in the outdoors then it is a good thing. I choose to hunt with Trad equipment and put down my compound years ago bc that is what I like. But yet I still rifle hunt, bc i like it. If its not a certain person thing then ok... and good for you.  

    Those two guys were so embroiled in being right that I think they missed the big picture of being outdoors all together.


Good Luck All On The New Season


D

Any kind of baiting out here is ilegal. Your hunting not fishing.

QuoteOriginally posted by Thumper Dunker:
Any kind of baiting out here is ilegal. Your hunting not fishing.

Im only talking about legal states....

Dave  you are right on.  

We tend to divide things by arbitrary meanings.  If I put the corn there it is baiting, but if it accidently falls off the wagon while I am pulling it to the truck its OK.  IF it is still on the standing corn it is OK.

Likewise, if I bring in acorns from afar and feed the deer, it is baiting, if I hunt under a big ol oak tree that is loudly dropping acorns, it is not.

etc
etc
etc.

Not a whole lot different than baiting using sex scent or grunts or bleats or distress calls or any other way of attracting and stopping an animal.

You have to stay legal so follow your local laws,    and let everybody else do the same.
ChuckC  :campfire:

I don't have a problem with others baiting if it is legal to do it.  We haven't been able to bait water fowl and turkeys for as long as I can remember.  I think they would be easy targets over bait.  Recently there was a ban on baiting deer due to concerns about disease.

Baiting is putting something where it is not growing or falling naturally.  It is just that simple to me.  

I don't bait even when it is permitted and in the past that was only deer around here.  I have always found the smart deer, the ones I am after, only come in to bait at night.  There are too many other food sources where I hunt for a smart deer to feel compelled to visit a bait pile in the daylight.  Baiting just alerts them to the fact I am there.  I would rather get them where they don't expect me.  I hunt the same property as others, who bait, and I shoot way more deer than they do.  

I would bait a bear or a hog if I need to do that due to the hunting area.  I know some folks hunt deer in areas with few natural funnel areas or crops to stake out.  In those situations I understand why they bait, and I am sure it is more effective.  However, I have hunted those area and shot deer while my baiting hunting partners sat on a highly used bait pile and saw nothing days on end.

I can't disagree with anything Chuck posted. As a matter of fact, he saved me a bunch of typing.

When the deer come to the SOUND of a feeder - its baiting!  I don't even fish with bait.  But to each their own.  This is, to me, not an issue of justification, it is a personal choice.  I choose not too - I enjoy the HUNT as I define it!  If you like baiting, enjoy it if it is legal.  H

QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
I can't disagree with anything Chuck posted. As a matter of fact, he saved me a bunch of typing.

Yep, what Jason and Chuck said.   spreading apples or corn is no different than planting a food plot, hunting a crop field or orchard, or using scents and lures.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kenneth:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
I can't disagree with anything Chuck posted. As a matter of fact, he saved me a bunch of typing.

Yep, what Jason and Chuck said.   spreading apples or corn is no different than planting a food plot, hunting a crop field or orchard, or using scents and lures. [/b]

Ditto

Ohhh boy, Did someone pop the popcorn  :confused:

I am definatly not against it.  I consider baiting anything that draws a animal in that was not naturally there.  But if I had the choice between bait and no bait I wouldnt use bait, let me explain . . .

Well I am going to use a fishing example to prove my point.  I fish with a fly rod, one because I like doing things the old way, and two because I am actually more successful with it in most cases.  How is that possible?  Because alot of folks are using hooks and worms to catch there fish.  Or hooks and minnows or powerbait, etc.  So when they see something they have never seen before, I.e my homemade fly, they pounce.

Same thing seems to happened around here for hunting.  Everyone in my vacinity, around my house especially baits.  So there is so many different piles of corn everywhere, the deer have tons of food to choose from, it has gotten to the point where they are only coming to bait at night.  So my solution is to set up on funnels or heavy trails.  

When fishing it is the same fish, and I am hunting the same deer.  I just choose to hunt without it, because I think it works better for me.  Plus that and I am broke, cant afford bait, and about 85% of my hunting is on public land, and we cant use bait except for private.  But within the other 15% of my hunting, I just wouldnt choose bait.  For those of you that use it, and use it well.  Excellent.  We are hunters pursuiting our quarry, and we want meat.  Even the indians wouldnt say heck no I aint gonna bait because it is easier, they would bait, and they would have fuller bellies for it . . .

hahahahaha... i knew this would fuel the fire.... but honestly i just wanted to hear feedback..... and it is all good stuff.....

up here baiting for bears is legal in the spring,  some times we use fish.  fall it is not but if you go up a stream full of rotten fish what do you have.....bears.
baiting is also ilegal for brown bears period.  but if you kill a animal you can take a brown bear off of the gut pile.  
it is not considerd baiting if you hut a gut pile,  but it is if you move your guts to a strategic location.  its all a matter of what you want to call baiting, the states have deparments full of graduates for that so us hunters dont have to scrap with each other about it

...a halter top...

Add a discussion point.  Let's have some fun.

OK  if I fly a blue cloth or a shiny CD near my stand (I hear bears are attracted to "strange things"....) is that baiting ?

If I am fishing and using a real worm, it is called bait, but if I am using a fake worm it is a lure, not bait.  

Even if it looks the exact same ?  

Even if it has smelly stuff or is salt impregnated ?  

Even if I squirt it with fish attractant (or WD40) ?  

How bout if it is made by Berkley out of real fish or worm parts ?

How bout if I don't use bait, period, but I am using a spinner bait, balsa minnow, or buzz bait which, by the way is made to look like food getting away.  Is that   "baiting".

If not,  then  can I (I believe legally I can ) use fake corn on the cob, like they had once for goose hunting.  Looks real, who knows maybe even smells real, but it isn't real AND the deer can't eat it.  Is that baiting ?    If I have a pile of them 6ft tall is it baiting ?

Like a lot of things we do, there are rules made by a few people that have to cover ALL scenarios.  Someone has to draw the line, or say "no line is to be drawn".

What you yourself do is not the point here.  What is allowed, by law, is the point.  

Here then is where your particular morals, or more's or ethics or whatever they are called come into play.  You do it as you chose to.  I will do as I chose to.
ChuckC

legal is "by the law"
ethics is "by the soul"
these can be mutually inclusive of exclusive......

Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 10th edition -- Bait: (n) something used in luring, esp to a hook or trap. Hunt:(v)  to pursue for food or in sport,... to search out, seek, etc.

Hunting and baiting are two different activities.  I prefer to hunt.

Very well said again Chuck!  I've never hunted over apples or corn or salt that has been carried into the woods.  I have however hunted a lot of crop fields, orchards, and areas with heavy acorn mass and I use grunt calls and tarsal glands, and urine from other deer.  I'm no different than a guy that carried in 10lbs of corn or apples as long as the state says it's legal.

What folks call baiting ain't no guarantee.  I have had deer walk right bye the corn that was put out to feed on the acorns dropping.  I think there is no difference in planting a food plot and throwing out corn.  Follow the laws and follow your heart.  I go bye the rule that if I have to ask if it's right or wrong then I shouldn't do it. ymmv

There's a big difference between hunting and shooting.  

This "we're all out there together" big tent idea just doesn't carry water with me.  Given the chance, I would support outlawing baiting for deer and other ungulates.  Bear I would support just to keep the predators in control.

Just because it's not always successful doesn't make it hunting.

It's legal.  Hey, whorehouses used to be most places and they changed that.  Well, Nevada"""

Baiting = anything placed or growing that is not indigenous...and is utilized (for the hunter's purposes) to lure in an animal.

What Chuck and Jason said ! Plus it is the closest thing to Catch and Release in hunting !!!

I have to disagree with anyone who thinks hunting food areas is the same as hunting bait.  I am not saying bait is wrong, but bait attracts an animal to a very specific place.  A food source attracts animals to a general location.  There is a completely different way animals feed in these situations.  Bait concentrates them and at times that is not good for animal health.

I hunt food sources and see animals all the time.  It is still a lot of work and hit or miss as to figuring out where they will feed.  Really most times I hunt how they get there not the food.  You can't tell me a 100 acre corn field or woods full of oak trees is the same as a bait pile of apples out in the swamp.  It is not the same.

How about a half acre corn field.... or a SINGLE oak tree that is dropping a lot of acorns.  or a single apple tree growing where a homestead used to be.

How about, as in Texas where you sprinkle a very small amount of corn . . . along a half mile sendero ?  That sure isn't concentrating the feed.

Let's push it a bit.... how about you plow all the fields except one and the only way there (under cover) is the small ditch line that you left.  Any guesses which way the deer are gonna come ?

I guess there is a whole lot to this.
ChuckC

I used to be staunchly against baiting...That was pretty ignorant of me.

Believe it or not there is a time and a place for it. You just want to be careful that you don't end up "counting" on it instead of honing your hunting skills.

You're not gonna spot and stalk a bear in the thick pine forests of Canada and you won't ever see a hog in the palmetto swamps in south Florida unless you lure them out somehow.

Never say never until you've been everywhere and seen everything.

I have and do hunt regularly over bait. Reason being that I hunt in very populated areas (NJ)One of the many reasons we hunt is to control the population and for this reason I choose to bait cause in some areas it's the only way to get them out into the wooded areas. However I do also hunt larger areas without bait aswell, learning the deers habits and patterns on their home turf too. It is in my own opinion a necessity to bait in some of the areas I am asked to hunt.

"Baiting is putting something where it is not growing or falling naturally. It is just that simple to me."

Pretty much my definition as well. If legal, then I see no problem in it. If not, then it is "illegal" and should not be done.

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right anymore than illegal makes it wrong. Bating is not a "right vs. wrong" issue. It is not a moral or ethical issue. It is a legal issue and an issue of opinion.

To say that baiting is somehow "morally wrong" is the result of someone letting their opinion get in the way of their common sense. It is not morally wrong to kill an animal for food unless you purposely cause the animal to suffer in death. If it was, then every cattle, pig, and poultry farmer in the world would be morally reprehensible.

"I hunt food sources and see animals all the time. It is still a lot of work and hit or miss as to figuring out where they will feed. Really most times I hunt how they get there not the food. You can't tell me a 100 acre corn field or woods full of oak trees is the same as a bait pile of apples out in the swamp. It is not the same."

It is a smaller version of the same. Just like you don't know where or if the deer will visit the corn field, you also don't know when or if they will visit a bait pile. You may know where they will be, IF they visit while you are there, but both situations have unknowns. Both attract deer. What if you are hunting a lone oak tree, you then know where they will visit IF they visit.

Baiting is baiting regardless of size.

It is not legal where I hunt, but I would not put out bait if it was. Only because I feel that it make my hunt somewhat "artificial" and I prefer to hunt "natural" bait.

Mark

QuoteI have to disagree with anyone who thinks hunting food areas is the same as hunting bait. I am not saying bait is wrong, but bait attracts an animal to a very specific place.

So...you're hung up on the size of the "pile"?

If someone practicing supplemental feeding decides to broadcast his "bait" over an acre.....and you're hunting a 1 acre food plot.....what's the difference?

Why are you hunting the artificial food source?  Why is the person hunting the broadcasted "bait"?

I'm not trying to be confrontational.  The questions are pointed, admittedly.

I think the difference is that a food plot takes a lot of time, effort and preparation where pouring out a bag of corn does not. In that respect I do see a big difference. We spend alot of days and dollars planting the 9 acres we have and plant them twice a year for best value to the herd. It's kinda stinky to think that the neighbor is pouring out a few bags of corn and drawing the deer off of us.

As with anything....if you use the "fringe" of each practice to bolster your argument....you can make either look bad.

I guarantee you there's people putting out food in some places that food plots would pale in comaparison to (in terms of nutritional value).

I also know of several friends who have food plots that they can reach ANY part of with an arrow.

I look to "intent".

Show me a man who plants food plots/ag fields and DOESN'T hunt over them (or leading to them)...and I'll concede that man is planting "for the betterment of the herd".

QuoteOriginally posted by LKH:
Given the chance, I would support outlawing baiting for deer and other ungulates.  Bear I would support just to keep the predators in control.

Ouch... and the unhealthy overpopulation of deer in areas isn't needed to be reduced?

I go back to my original answer:

legal is "by the law"
ethics is "by the soul"
these can be mutually inclusive of exclusive......

one can be answered for you, one cannot....

I say - don't ask - don't tell.  H

Sorry Chuck But I have to completely disagree. Being from Wisc you know what baiting has done to hunting there. The deer no longer move like deer that have to forage for food .

There is A HUGE difference over hunting a trail to row crop field then to a pile of corn at specific longitute - latitude location. I do not want to argue but because we aren't supposed to do that here.

Calling with a grunt tube is not the same as baiting.

Hunting over a scrape is not the same as baiting!

Baiting is conditioning  an animal to come to a specific spot in the woods so you can kill it.

Thats not hunting ( in my opinion)
.

QuoteOriginally posted by GMMAT:
As with anything....if you use the "fringe" of each practice to bolster your argument....you can make either look bad.

I guarantee you there's people putting out food in some places that food plots would pale in comaparison to (in terms of nutritional value).

I also know of several friends who have food plots that they can reach ANY part of with an arrow.

I look to "intent".

Show me a man who plants food plots/ag fields and DOESN'T hunt over them (or leading to them)...and I'll concede that man is planting "for the betterment of the herd".

Matt That's silly. The deer use the foodplots 24/7 . Corn doesn't have much nutritional value at all but it's like candy to a deer. You're just picking, I know you see the difference.

Biggie...

I'm not kidding.  Like I said, you can use the "fringe" (bag of corn v. 9 acre food plot), and I'd agree with everything you said.

I gave you mitigating examples, though....that would have them being congruent (citing hunter's intent and the ability to take the animals from any point within the source).  And again....supplemental food is often times of WAY more value (nutritionally) than anything you could grow in a food plot.  

And....BOTH food sources can be made available to the herd 24/7.

The biggest factor in me forming my opinion on this subject is a quite simple one.  It's legal where I hunt (though I've never killed an animal over it).  I'll support ANY hunter's right to pursue game, as long as his methods are legal, and his manner of taking is ethical.

Baiting ?????? That is everything under the Sun.. from Scent to calls to food and even decoys It's all Bait. For Those that Think crop field hunting isn't baiting, Guess What... It is.. If You think Different, Your wrong....

I Feel if You do what ever You want to as long as it is legal in that State.. Have fun and Enjoy.. I won't judge You.

QuoteOriginally posted by LITTLEBIGMAN:


Calling with a grunt tube is not the same as baiting.

Hunting over a scrape is not the same as baiting!

Baiting is conditioning  an animal to come to a specific spot in the woods so you can kill it.

Thats not hunting ( in my opinion)
.

Baiting is conditioning  an animal to come to a specific spot in the woods so you can kill it. ????But it is... You use the grunt to bring them... You make a mock scrap or a real one Your bring the deer to a spot to kill them...

People who think baiting is a panacea have not tried it, IMO....at least not seriously. It is legal in NH but I have to tell you, if you mess up once they will be on to you in a hurry and hunting over bait then becomes more difficult than hunting natural food sources. NH does not have a dense deer herd so the numbers are not there to guarantee that some other unsuspecting animal will come by. In the rut the bucks will often approach a bait from downwind or blow right by it in their travels looking for does. If no does are at the bait they just keep on going and they are usually out of range or in an area you have not prepared shooting lanes in. If the buck do feed at the bait it will most often be before or after the rut and more commonly in the dark.

However, the question asked had to do with defining what baiting is. IMO it has to do with something a man or woman does to establish a preferred feeding area in order to hunt the intended animal. I planted apple trees on my property when we built our house just to lure deer in and to keep them around.  I plant clover and chicory in the field where the apples are for the same reason. On the property we bought so we could hunt on it we use corn or apples that we buy or collect.

Another question is...how close to the food supply do you set up? For example, in NH it is not legal to bait turkeys. We have a game feeder across our pond that attracts both turkey and deer. This Fall I set up a DB blind about 80 yards from the feeder and shot a turkey. The local Conservation Officer saw the set up and assured me that I was not hunting over the bait so I was legal. Another time I was hunting in upstate NY. On the property was a large 50 gallon drum set up to spread corn for the critters. Bears were coming in so the landowner told me that it was illegal to hunt the bears at the barrel and I needed to be at least 75 yards away from it to be able to legally shoot a bear. So, in the incident with the turkeys and the bears was I baiting? In my mind I knew the food was the reason the animals would be where I could shoot them because of the "bait"....but in each case the hunting was legal and not considered to be baiting by the Fish and Game dept.

"Baiting is conditioning an animal to come to a specific spot in the woods so you can kill it.  

Via a food plot?  This is really a matter of opinion not ethics.  I have never piled "bait" up in an area and hunted over it.  I have spinkled some out on a trail at a shooting lane.  I have cut an apple in half and rubbed it on my pants and shirt when hunting near a apple orchard.  I have put out scents and made mock scrapes.  I have let more deer walk than I have shot.  I do not know anyone who is more "ethical" than I am in any capacity.

Pretty simple to me.
Something that is placed to attract that does not normally or naturally occur there is baiting.
You wouldn't normally see a big pile of doughnuts in the woods,  thats baiting.  If there isn't an oak tree around,  there shouldn't be a big pile of acorns there -  if you dump a big pile then its baiting.  If there isn't normally a big steel drum with legs, and an electric motor that spins out corn at predesiginated times in the woods,  then its baiting.
I don't agree with the logic that hunting where naturally occurring oak trees drop there mast or where there are farm crops equates to baiting. Heck if you are against baiting and subscribe to the logic that farm crops are the same as bait you would never be able to hunt in my part of Illinois.  Corn and beans as far as the eye can see.

Hunting is nothing more than pitting ones wits against an animals instincts and senses while in their own home environment. Whether that is with a camera, a gun or a bow.

I don't have to tell anyone here how far that can get distorted. Baiting and lures are just a few of those distortions. Lets not forget about hunting in 100 acre fenced lots or planting fields to increase antler size just so they can be hunted, killed and bragged about the size of the rack on the buck they killed.

But the bottom line is this. Each one of us hunt for our own satisfaction, whatever that may be. The animals are here for our own consumption and how we choose to harvest them is an individual decision. As long as it's done in a legal manner

There is no moral issue here as far as baiting is concerned. And each person sets their level of difficulty were they feel will hold their interest.

I for one hunt for the shear joy of hunting and being in nature and I am not one to make it easy on myself. That's why I hunt with a long bow.

As long as the animal is taken legally, by humane means, and not wasted. I have no issues.

Burnsie . . .  and the deer are coming to feed on it.   Ha  Baiting !  Actually We are not saying it IS baiting,  but we are trying to say that the end result is no different.

I'm having fun here (sorry).  I guess my point of yacking so much is that  we often have pre-conceived ideas.  Baiting is. . .  this.  but sometimes there is a pretty weak line between that. .  and this.  Sometimes you can draw a perfectly legible line between the two, but again the results are the same.

I don't begrudge someone for baiting, although I will agree that in some areas it has screwed up deer activities.   Wisconsin has been bait free in the biggest part for numerous years, since CWD reared its ugly head (no, not in the north).  Certainly long enough for at least one or two generations of fawns to have grown up "bait free".  

In the UP Michigan,  oh my word, the trails don't follow ridges and swamps. .  they go from bait to bait.  Don't matter if you bait or not cause the deer are gonna follow the bait trails from one to another.  

I was in Texas several times chasing Javelina.  Where I was it is really difficult to see, then approach them lil guys if you don't seed the sendero to first draw them and second keep them there for a few minutes.

I would prefer to spot and stalk them, but really, you couldn't do that there.  Go there and see what I mean.
ChuckC

"You wouldn't normally see a big pile of doughnuts in the woods"

Burnsie - tell me more of these doughnuts - I'm a cop!  H

I think it is funny how people think you just wander out in the woods and throw out some doughnuts sit there a little while and shoot a bear.

I hunt bear by baiting but also spot and stalk. Baiting is a lot of work and you have to know your quarry just as well as you do when stalking.

As far as the people that say if it naturally occurs there. What about hunting over stalk ponds for antelope, bear, deer or elk in dry desert areas were they have to water? What about bear hunting in black berry patches that are not native but grow there on there own?

There are more variables than I care to type. I love to bait bear and it is "Hunting" to me.

I noticed this conversation usually is directed to deer baiting but I never hear those that oppose baiting deer object when it comes to baiting bears.  

Why are bears different to those that oppose baiting deer?

Biggie already said it best..."Never say never until you've been everywhere and seen everything."

I grew up hunting in Pennsylvania where it was and remains illegal to use bait. I was very closed minded on the subject and probably bashed a folk or two about it back then. However, I grew up, and the good Lord blessed me with some opportunities to hunt around North America. After seeing first hand what it takes to chase black bears in the tangles of Ontario and javelinas in the choking brush of south Texas, let's just say my mind is much more open.

Now, on the contrary, my uncle asked if I would chaperone a "hunt" with his 16 year old grandson which turned out to be on a high fence operation. I'm not talking a 1,000+ acres here either (and yes there is a difference). It didn't take long to walk from "boundary" to "boundary". The "wild" boars and other "free-ranging" animals in the "hunting" area had little fear of humans. And while I could have "hunted" on my uncle's dime, I decided to just chaperone because that just isn't for me.

CHEATING    :readit:

QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
I used to be staunchly against baiting...That was pretty ignorant of me.

Believe it or not there is a time and a place for it.

Never say never until you've been everywhere and seen everything.

Absolutely!


It's amazing how folks think things are so cut and dry...both for and against....

This is a great topic of discussion... I have often wondered why it is that I seem to inherently object to the idea of shooting deer over feeders or in planted plots, or bear over donunt barrels, but seem to have no problem with the idea of shooting pronghorns at water pools put out by outfitters.  With respect to deer, I think there truly are better ways to hunt them than bait... but in CT (where baiting is NOT legal) we seek out food and water sources to set up our stands.  I like to set up on deer trails leading to or from these sources or off bedding and staging areas... and I have had success in these places.  I think the difference here is that I FOUND them, not put anything there to attract them.

I also do not consider using auditory 'lures' as bait.  Bait is food put out, not urine or grunts or anything else... food.

Now all that said, I have been wanting to get into bear hunting and am now in the baiting camp as a ethical method to take a bear.  Baiting does feed the animals in an artificial way, but how is it different than CT bears eating at the dump?  That's a big-ol'-pile-a-bait they found on their own!!  Realistically, baiting provides a food source, but as Fred Eichler has commented, all the bears senses are still fully engaged as it approaches and feeds at the bait.  Baiting bear allows for examining the bear for age, sex, cubs, etc... where as stalk and spot could limit these things.  Now let me be clear, I have not yet hunted bears over bait, but I think I am OK with doing so in the future!

Sidebuster:

I am one that had the chance to legally hunt deer over bait; and when I tried it;  and the deer walked in; I got down out of the tree and walked off. I don't like baiting deer. To me it is like cheating.
But- where there are too many deer; and its an issue- well bait might be appropriate.
Hogs--well they are becoming a menace; and baiting them- its one way to 'get er done' in an efficient manner.

Now bears- well bears are a whole different story.
Bears commonly feed off one bait source. Its natural for them to establish a spot on a spawning stream and go there year after year to eat fish.
So- baiting them is not changing their pattern of existence.

With bears - the strongest survives. I read a Craighead study once that said if you kill a dominant boar - 40 bears can live where he did.

Boars will dominate a bait.

A few years I did a youth mentored hunt for a friends son. In order to mentor a hunt - you have to have a tag for the species hunted.
This meant that my months of baiting and setting up stands would not pay for me- until the kid I was mentoring got his bear.
There was a guy who hauled in a huge amount of bait near where I was baited; and a huge boar dominated that bait and mine.
I saw the boar; and a couple sows; but I could not shoot until the kid had finished hunting.
OK - so the kid shoots the P&Y boar that was coming in- and I skinned it; and it was spring; and there was 3 inches of fat on that bear; and fat all over its body.
Later-- I shot a sow ( long story) that had been coming into the same bait as the boar; and she had zero body fat.

Boars dominate food sources; and being able to use a bait - so that I can identify the bear I am shooting is critical. If you want a big bear you have to do that.

So - no I do not feel ok hunting over bait for deer; I might try to figure out food sources and find bedding areas associated with them and trails to and from and hunt those. Or spot and stalk.
By the way; where I live- spotting and stalking bears is going to give you a slight chance; and a slighter opportunity to choose what your shooting.

I did not get a bear last year; I had several people come and hunt off my bait; it was hard work; and its like a chess game hunting bears over bait here. Not easy at all.

elk and deer and moose over bait- well doesn't sound like what I am after.

The amount of property you can hunt; the population of the deer; the dynamics change from area to area. I am not dissing anyone for baiting deer. I just don't personally like the idea. Like Biggy implied though- I am not living where others are.

It is legal to bait deer and elk here in Washington.  While I have never done it intentionally by placing bait, I have definately hunted over bait.  Corn fields for ducks and geese, under apple trees for bears, deer, and elk.  If you hunt food sources you hunt over bait in my book.  I say if it is legal in your state and you want to do it, More power to you.  

I prefer to be moving when I hunt, I find it more challenging and more fun.  I dislike being stuck in one spot all day long waiting.

Personally, I struggle with this topic because I understand that, in certain situations, baiting is the most practical tool for managing game populations. I've spent the last ten years trying to spot and stalk black bears with my longbow in Montana and I've yet to get within range. I've killed whitetails spot and stalk but I cannot come close to a bear. If the MT FWP was relying on me to help manage the bear population (which they are) they'd be in big trouble. Using the same line of reasoning, I have come to have greater appreciation for baiting and would respect someone more for harvesting a bear over bait with a traditional bow than I would an individual using a rifle to dump one from 400 yards.

That being said, I saw a hunting program last week in which the "hunter" had to get out of his blind because the feeder he was sitting on didn't activate on time. He turned it on and hopped back in the blind before the deer came in. Maybe it's hypocritical, but I was saddened to think that many folks not only envision that as a "hunt", but pay a lot of money for that experience.  

Maybe I'm hypocritical and maybe I am wrong, but I view baiting as a valuable tool for managing game poopulations, but a tool that transfers the emphasis of the experience from "hunt" to "harvest". I think we all like to think that we do what we do for the experience and the bounty is icing on the cake. So why would we tarnish the experience by making it about the "harvest" rather than the "hunt"?

Like I said, I'm conflicted myself and certainly wouldn't pass up a chance to harvest a big boar coming into a Northern Alberta bait. I guess I would at least acknowledge, though, that it's a harvest and not a hunt.

U seen what Howard Hill used for bait???

QuoteOriginally posted by hunt it:
U seen what Howard Hill used for bait???

What????

human placed foods like bear baits and corn feeders in my opinion do change the animals habits, it makes them even more wary, they know its not natural and they in turn start playing the game with you, ive spent my share of time on bear baits, ive been sniffed and never saw the bear again, he just started coming in the middle of the day, never had a shot.  the next year i began using the bait as a sneak spot i would still hunt around it and had just as much action as sitting, i also used natural baits, fish heads for example,  
I also have done a couple weeks of hunting in texas for hogs and deer, and alot of it was over corn,  those critters arnt dumb they know what the corn is there for and most of the time they didnt show, i had more action hunting food plots and trails to the food plots.
i have no problem with baiting deer or bears, its up to me at the time how i want to hunt, i have killed bears with both spot and bait,
i belive that hunting over any food source that has not grown from the earth with out human aid is baiting, scents for deer and any other animal is baiting.  I also belive that hunting a section of oaks is the same as hunting over a natural kill for bears or wolfs,  it is up to the hunter to find the natural bait, this i belive to be the purest most efective method wich for bears requires lots of work and luck.

ive seen some of you call it cheating,  pretty srong words, In retrospect do you fish with a bare hook and just hope one will swim into it?
i supose using a vehicle to get to the area a animal is is also cheating, Optics-cheating- camo-cheating,   lets just say if i wanted to kill a bear here i had no vehicle no camo or optics just primitive sticks and clothes the first thing id do is go to a salmon stream pick out a bunch of fish make a pile then a brush blind and hope their is a bear in the area,  eventualy there will be and i might get to see it let alone shoot it, id keep it full of rotten fish as long as it takes or the fish run out,

sorry way to much.

keep the corn piles high,  and the hogs dumb down in tx ill be back

DEFINITION:  I tend to think that anything we do with food for the purpose to "draw" animals to a specific location for the purpose of hunting is "baiting." Like many things it has to do with intent.

What is the difference in spending money on a food plot or putting down some corn?  The intent and result is the same!  

I think hunting on natural food sources (including crops) is quite a bit different than the intent to draw deer to my stand site.

Is any of this wrong?  Probably not.  But when states decide to outlaw baiting, I sure hope they take into consideration all forms of it.

And I sure wonder how some celeb hunters would do if they could not hunt over bait.

All that being said- I am generally not against it.

Dan in KS

I abhor the double-standard (bear v. deer baiting).

Legal in Louisiana and I have in small amounts.I also think too much are making our deer even more nocturnal b/c a deer with a full stomach doesn't have to browse during the day as much.Kip

Howard Hill once while croc hunting used a native for bait! There is a picture in one of Howard's books of this poor native guy standing up to his waist in river with sticks stuck in cage like fashion around him. Howard is sitting on tree limb above. Folks would not take to kindly to that these days.

If there is corn in the field and corn in a pile not much difference. Hogs/bears in alot of country pretty hard to do without bait. In Ontario we can bait all but turkey and migratory birds. Currently there is a new law proposed to ban FEEDERS but not baiting.

Baiting is what it is.

When I hunt over falling acorns, I consider it baiting. I did not haul it in, but to me it is bait just the same. An alfalfa field, with beaten runways leading to it...a big, green baitpile. With a foot of snow, a cornfield, cut or standing, is most certainly a baitpile. How about a foodplot, cultivated using quads, and special equipment manufactured just for such things. IMHO...bait.

Hauling "bait" out is alot of work. It takes alot of time and it makes hunters look bad to the non-hunting public. (most non-hunters see "baiting" as unsportsmanlike)

I learned long ago, that hauling out foods like corn and sugar beets was, by far, NOT the most effective way to get deer in range of my arrows.

A couple of years ago, I got permission to hunt a big, cut cornfiled. Snow was early, and it was cold. Deer were coming from all around, and had beaten paths through the deep snow leading to it.
When I took my then thirteen yr old son there for the first time, he saw all of the deer sign and said, "this is one BIG baitpile". He was right. And best of all, I didn`t have to haul it.

My son killed his second deer with traditional equipment that evening, and it was through the use of "bait" IMHO, and it was awesome.  :campfire:

Bait usually refers to:

Bait (luring substance), bait as a luring substance

that says it all. unless you still hunt all the time you are likely using some form of baiting.

......Think I'll stay out of "THIS ONE" !!! Anyway ,,,  that big pot of (corn feed deer) stew I'm making is done...yummmmmm!!!

I personaly find hunting deer over a baitpile or feeder to be distatesful. It takes away from the satisfction I get from a day spent hunting.

Scratching my wife's back for a year till she fell asleep...

So that I could hunt Africa for 2 weeks...

Jury is still out on who was being baited!!!

I have a serious question to ask......

With as much controversy (both real and perceived) in the realm of hunting as we have, today.......Do we not have better/more productive things to do.....than to tear down another man's pursuits?

I have read all the posts, and it seems to me that a lot of you guys are having way too much fun baiting others with your words.  Baiting is really putting something out there to draw attention.
Just be legal and stand up for your rights to hunt as you see fit.

..I put apples out once and they were gone everyday. Found out it was a groundhog that was storing them in his hole. too many other things to do as I hunt than to put out feed. Theres plenty out there already....!!! I'm more interested in feeding ..."ME" !!!

QuoteOriginally posted by GMMAT:
 

QuoteI have to disagree with anyone who thinks hunting food areas is the same as hunting bait. I am not saying bait is wrong, but bait attracts an animal to a very specific place.

So...you're hung up on the size of the "pile"?

[/b]

Yes I am hung up on the size of the pile if you call a pile of bait a hunter drops on the ground and the 100 acre corn filed in my example both piles.  Your partial quote of what I said is a little out of contest don't you think?  I do believe there is a difference between using a concentrated attractant vs. hunting a large spread out food sources.  

My definition of baiting is the same and the US Fish and Wildlife Dep. and about every state in the country.  They don't have much of a problem defining what is and is not baiting.  That works just fine for me as an answer to the original question.

I hunt one farm with multiple apple orchards, pears, peaches, cherries, and corn mixed in between all the orchards.  It is surrounded by woods with acorns.  Baiting?  It is the hardest place I have ever hunted.  You have to be on the ball to figure out what they are eating and when.  It is easier to find a travel funnel than hunt the food.  It is a whole lot more like hunting the wild with many varying food sources spread out all over the place than it is hunting a bait pile.

As for the rest of this stuff, it is more personal definition than what is widely accepted by government agencies and most hunters.  You can go into all kinds of tangents and arguments if you really feel you need to defend baiting.  The way I see it baiting is legal or it is not.  If it is legal you don't need to defend it.  If it is not legal ............  

I hang out in doe areas in the rut.  I guess I am baiting the buck then by some peoples definition.  I guess the critters are baiting me with all that fun in the outdoors and tasty meat.  I am fairly certain my wife baited me.  I guess everything is baiting.

Baiting is generally allowed in places where that is about the only way you will have a chance to see the game. I once saw a film of Fred Bear saying that he was in favor of it, if that was the means that gave the hunter the best chance at a a successful hunting experience. (words to that effect)Just follow the regs in your area.

...I break up a fresh sassafras root and lay it in front of my stand. It seems to stop deer. What a great smell ....food for the nose. Is that baiting ...hmmmmm!

I harvested a whopping 2 deer since I been trade hunting and thats been without bait, had a few close calls also. It sure feel good to know that. I personally think baiting is a lazy or easier way to hunt just like using a crossbow or gun. It's just a personal choice. I have a buddy that shoots a crossbow, his reason, "I don't have the time to practice with a longbow or compound". That is a ethical reason that I respect. It's what a hunter sets his/her expectations, what you limit yourself with, how challenging you make it. Trad hunters are for sure a minority we stand out but some stand out more than others, where are you gonna set your standards.

I don't get involved with these type discussions usually.  Pointless.  

I killed the two biggest bucks I ever killed with a bow by hunting a wild pear tree and a persimmon tree.  Don't feel bad about it at all.

I am not for baiting but I get a chuckle out of people who think baiting is unfair, yet don't bat an eye using a rangefinder hyper cam compounds scent killing spray scent killing clothes synthetic deer scents electronic calls and shooting a deer 50 yards away that they "scouted" via digital trail camera that automatically emails the photos to you from a treestand set up by a guide on property they have never been on after driving to their stand in a 4 wheeler...  Again, Im not a fan of baiting but let's put it in perspective

I'm a bit disappointed that in this discussion, most folks seem to ascribe to the lowest standard for hunting behavior, i.e., if it's legal, then it's OK. A lot of stuff is legal, but not necessarily ethical. For example, in this state, it's legal to shoot a deer that has its antlers locked with another buck preventing its/their escape.  It's legal to shoot a deer if it's tangled in a fence and can't get away.  Would it be ethical to do so.  Not in my book. The ethical thing to do is to break them apart or cut away the wire.  Additionally, some regulations are ambivalent regarding what is legal. For example, in my state, it's legal to bait in half of it, illegal to bait in the other half. What?  Why?

I don't see the concept of fair chase raised in many of these discussions.  In a nutshell, the concept of fair chase has to do with not engaging in practices and behaviors that reduce or eliminate the possibility for the animal to escape.  The instances I just mentioned, for example, involve situations in which the animals cannot escape. (High fences accomplish the same thing.)  Is it legal to kill them?  It is in this state.  Is it fair chase to do so?  Nope.  One might even extend the concept of fair chase to giving the animal a fair break in the interaction between the hunter and the hunted.  After all, we do have most of the advantages and we're not talking subsistence here.

In 10-20 years, sometime in the future, we may reach consensus on the appropriateness of baiting. But individually, to develop our own ethics toward the animals we hunt, it might not be a bad idea to examine our attitudes and behaviors in light of the concept of fair chase.

QuoteI don't see the concept of fair chase raised in many of these discussions. In a nutshell, the concept of fair chase has to do with not engaging in practices and behaviors that reduce or eliminate the possibility for the animal to escape.  

From the P&Y website....

 

QuoteThe Rules of Fair Chase

The term "Fair Chase" shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:

*Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice.
*From any power vehicle or power boat.
*By "jacklighting" or shining at night.
*By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons.
*While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures.
*By the use of any power vehicle or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground.
*By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.
*Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable.

Okay I just read them all.  One thing that definatly needs to clear up is that a grunt tube is not bait!  There is a huge difference.  If you are fishing and you have jig with a hook and worm, the worm is the bait, the spinner above is not, that is a attractant.  Same goes with a grunt tube!  In trapping, when you set for bobcat in some states you can use feathers as a attractant, but the meat in the dirt hole is the bait.

 

QuoteOriginally posted by GMMAT:
Show me a man who plants food plots/ag fields and DOESN'T hunt over them (or leading to them)...and I'll concede that man is planting "for the betterment of the herd".

I know alot of guys that plant food plots but dont hunt over them.  But they are definatly the "horn porn" type, so although they are bettering the heard are they really any better than the fellow that hunts over the plot and kills some does for his freezer.  Not saying you are in the wrong or anything, that is the only statement you made that I didnt agree with.

With that said there is a huge difference between a pile of corn and a food plot as far as the animals well being.  Deer are browze feeders.  They go along and eat, and go along some more and eat.  When the come along to a corn pile they will sit there and eat.  Ignoring there browze instincts untill they are full or the corn is gone.  So you may think that your big massive corn pile is feeding the herd, but in reality you may only be feeding a couple of deer.  Not to mention, IMHO it would be a ton cheaper to plant a food plot, you spend a couple bucks for a bag of seed, plant it and it keeps growing, and so does your wallet, but with corn you wallet may be empty alot of the time, lol

Add to the fact that all the food plots I have seen are decent in size, with a corn pile you are putting that deer exactly where you want it to stand for you to shoot at.  Most food plots last almost the entire year, wear as a corn pile will probably not, hunters dont put out corn during the entire summer.  A food plot in my eyes is alot better for the deer.  I am not really against baiting, I am just trying to play the devils advocate  :wavey:

Ahhhh...such interesting interaction here amongst the "gang".........

Some "food for thought":

Why would we EVER put a stand(s) up on the edge of a foodplot or on any trail leading or from said foodplot?  Certainly not because we would expect the animal to actually be "attracted" to said foodplot!  We plant them for their nutritional needs.

All fun aside.....I'm also a fisherman........a flyfisherman and flytyer to be specific...for about as long as I can remember.  My Dad reminded me of one thing when I was very young.....the ONLY difference between me and the boy drowning the worm downstream was that we actually built the "bait".  I can remember the day he explained this to me.  Thanks Dad for doing all you could to keep me grounded and I miss you with every ounce of my soul.

Thanks for posting GMMAT.  I was paraphrasing.  That's quite a list of practices that "reduce or eliminate the possibiity of escape," or otherwise take advantage of the prey."

It's also devoid of the term "baiting".  That was my point.

Like I said....I abhor the double-standard (Bear v. Deer baiting).  That's my biggest pet peeve in these discussions.  Someone always feels the need to saddle the elevated equine.

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I don't have very much experience with it, but I have noticed that most people against it have never tried it.  I will say this...whether you are against it or not, it sure seems to be something the non-hunting public does not view with much favor.  You'll hear the old "sounds like shooting fish in a barrel" thing.  
  The first time I had experience with it was in Africa.  While there, you are primarily hunting over waterholes, but often the guides will put alfalfa or something next to the water hole.  Being nieve, I told my PH I really preferred to not use the bait.  He was quite offended by this and said "What the hell do you think that waterhole is?"  Point taken, and I learned two lessons.  One, is that as biggie mentioned, there may be a time and place for everything.  And two is that when you are hunting in a new area that you know little about, and animals you have never seen, it is best to not make any kind of statement to the locals that may cause them to think you are judging their ethical standards.  We both got over it and enjoyed a great hunt.

I live in a state (NY) where baiting is illegal. The local feed stores sell feeders and 100# bags of corn nonetheless. To me, baiting seems to be a way of PREDICTABLY bringing animals to a spot you have chosen, to feed. This takes away what is most interesting about hunting, which is figuring out where and when you're likely to intercept an animal. I have sat near cornfields, oak trees with nuts dropping, apple trees with falling fruit. Do the deer (or whatever) appear predictably at these prime locations? No. Put in your time and you will likely see game but it's on their terms. If it's legal where you hunt, and it works for you, fine. If it's illegal, I hope you get caught. But that's not predictable, either.

QuoteOriginally posted by jonsimoneau:
I will say this...whether you are against it or not, it sure seems to be something the non-hunting public does not view with much favor.  You'll hear the old "sounds like shooting fish in a barrel" thing.  
   

Isn't that largely a regional opinion? If I'm not mistaken, there was a ballot initiative in Michigan several years ago to abolish baiting. It was overwhelmingly shot down.

Jason, you are probably right about that.

Vermonster  

can you pass one of those over here.   They look good.
ChuckC

Vermonster - Chocolate chip or oatmeal ?

Why would an animal  "predictably" come to a bait pile but not "predictably" come to another food source when it is available ?

BTW  in all my talks,  I am not saying that a food plot (or any of the other examples given) is baiting.  But I am saying it serves the exact same purpose.  Put out the food,  animals MAY come and eat.  Plant the food plot,  fertilize the oak tree, yadda, yadda , animals May come and eat.  Whats the difference.


ChuckC

...read my signature...

OK this rule makes no sense to me:
*By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game,*

So no gps; no talking on this site; no using flashlights to get to your stand and back in the dark?

Just plain hard work,
and fun when the bears come in...lol

QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
You just want to be careful that you don't end up "counting" on it instead of honing your hunting skills.

I agree with everything you said here Biggie, specially the part I quoted you on. I've said this on other hunting forums- Get to know the animal your hunting. I for one use bait to hunt bear In Mn. I know for a fact I wouldn't be as successful at getting the bear I have If I just relied on "baiting" and not spending the time to learn them.

The North Dakota DNR has about the best take on it in the great video they produced.

It's worth a couple minutes of everyone's time to watch...

http://gf.nd.gov/multimedia/pubs/baiting-video.html

QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
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:coffee:

GMMAT:  The Pope and Young Club doesn't have exclusive rights on the definition of fair chase, nor is their definition all encompassing, but I laud them for their efforts to point out the most egregious violations of fair chase and trying to set an example of high ethical standards. A fella by the name of Aldo leopold (A Sand County Almanac) had a lot to say about the concept more than 50 years ago.  Though he didn't use the term, the concept is certainly part of his land ethic.  All I was trying to suggest is that in making the decision to bait or not, or to implement any other practice, technique or tool in hunting,  it might not be a bad idea to do so by considering and examining them in the spirit of fair chase.  In short, we have to decide for ourselves whether baiting (and everything else we do under the guise of hunting) is fair to the animal/fair chase or not.

Mojostick:  Thanks for the link to the North Dakota video.  Excellent discussion of the baiting issue.  Their definition of fair chase is the one I was trying to get at.

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QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
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Your killin me Dave!!  :biglaugh:    :biglaugh:

In light of all the research on baiting we have now, I think we'll find most in favor of the practice are hunting poor deer habitat, whether they realize it or not. Here in Michigan, especially northern Michigan, the common complaint is that many hunters can't see any deer without bait.

Many northern Michigan deer hunters are hunting  poor deer habitat and don't even realize it. They hunt wide open, mature woods where you can see 200 yards because every twig was eaten and few grow because there's no sunlight.

The reality is, without bait, the deer don't want to visit those said properties. And this is maybe 40-60% of northern Michigan.

So the debate strays, should hunters hunting poor deer habitat be entitled to draw deer away from the better deer habitat, only for the purposes of recreational hunting?

What further regeneration harm can be done to the already poor habitat those hunters are trying to lure deer to?

Again, I refer back to the ND video.

Where I've hunted Whitetail,just breaking a broadleaf branch off a tree an watching it for a few days,is kind of looked on as being a bit off by some folks.

Not by me though,they vist those trees everyday during their rounds,so I just take advantage of that by making one particular spot a bit more inviting.

I know 90% of the trees,shrubs an herbs my local deer feed off,and I take advantage of that as well.

I don't really consider it's baiting untill you bring something that isn't usualy available to them into an area.

Things like piles of corn,salt blocks,feeders ect,,,,an even then I don't have any real problem with others doing that.

As far as the law is concerned where I live,,you can do anything you like,,there are no rules.

All in all, a very good discussion.

[/qb][/QUOTE]Isn't that largely a regional opinion? If I'm not mistaken, there was a ballot initiative in Michigan several years ago to abolish baiting. It was overwhelmingly shot down. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I don't recall that, but baiting has been illegal in Michigan for two years due to concerns with the heath of the deer.  It seems that wild animals all eating off the same bait pile is a bad thing particularly when there is disease concern.  There are a lot of people not following that regulation.  Before that there were restrictions on quantities and how it was to be spread out.  There were a lot of people not following that either.

I think Dave19113 just baited all of you guys

QuoteOriginally posted by Mojostick:
Many northern Michigan deer hunters are hunting  poor deer habitat and don't even realize it. They hunt wide open, mature woods where you can see 200 yards because every twig was eaten and few grow because there's no sunlight.

The reality is, without bait, the deer don't want to visit those said properties. And this is maybe 40-60% of northern Michigan.

Less bait and more chain saws?  Less tree hugging and more tree cutting.

If there's no difference between flinging corn kernals from a feeder at timed intervals and hunting a natural food source or even a food plot, then there is no difference between hunting with a recurve, or a compound or a rifle for that matter. Baiting produces a conditions response in animals, where food plots and naturally available foods do not. Baiting forces animal behaviors to change, and natural and planted foods force hunters to understand animal behavior. The latter is a more pure activity in my book, regardless of legality. Sure, there are cases where baiting is the most effective way to get game in range, but call a spade a spade. It ain't hunting to me. Here in Maryland you can bait on private land but not on public land. So what's that mean? I hunt some private land surrounded by people that bait and the deer turn nocturnal and are nearly impossible to hunt. Baiting spawns an "if you can't beat em, join em" mentality and pretty soon everyone is baiting and you can't find a place to hunt deer that aren't impacted by it. Its like second hand smoke in my opinion. You may not like it, but its forced on you by those that do it. I think it should be illegal. Especially when you consider the disease transmission and ecological damages caused by concentrated deer.

QuoteOriginally posted by killinstuff:
I think Dave19113 just baited all of you guys

Naaaaaaa.... I just wanted to hear different opinions..... I didnt think I was gonna get this much feedback.. but I do like to read about it all....

All and all though, thats what is great about America and being an American.... freedom of choice and opinion...

remove baiting , treestands, and firearms and we'll all become better hunters.

Xtrema,

The chainsaw is not only the best tool for deer management in northern Michigan, it's the best tool for grouse management, rabbit management, woodcock management, bear management and turkey management too.

The sad fact is, many Michigan deer hunters actually decry clearcuts because they only see the short term. They send angry emails about how "their public ground" was "destroyed" by clearcuts. The truth is, clearcuts in northern Michigan are the best thing that could ever happen to that ground.

Red squirrels and owls love old growth forests. Deer, not so much.

It's always been my contention that the Sierra Club's law suit war against aspen cutting in Michigan had nothing to do with the actual cutting of aspen, but it was the ultimate anti-hunting tool.

Michigan has lost something like 30-40% of it's aspen forest over the last 40 years due to lack of proper timber management.

The less habitat you have for game animals, the less need for hunting as a mangement tool. And the less interest from the masses. So the anti's don't have to fight against "hunting" per se, but their better battle is to fight clear cuts and big timbering.

Their plan is to simply slowly eliminate the habitat that game animals live in. Notice the groups totally against proper timber management and who instead fight for old growth forests  which assures few game animals.

If you want to lower game animal numbers, then fight for old growth forests. This is the anti's new strategy, and frankly, it's an effective one, since many hunters themselves buy into it because they don't understand the need/benefit of clearcuts either.

Baiting isn't the answer, wholesale habitat improvement management matched with proper tag  regulations to keep herd numbers in check is. The problem is, the former takes little effort, the latter takes lots of effort.

I agree jacobsladder.  But "when in Rome..."

Here in AR it is legal to bait.  On our lease we bait, plant food plots, use mineral supplements, and experiment with other methods of attracting deer.  

Southern AR is heavily hunted and space is at a premium.  If you don't own land, you pretty much have to lease. Hunting is a tremendous expense without baiting.

During my 50 years the herd in AR has gone quite a bit.  We have gone from possibly being lucky enough to see 1 deer during a 1 week season to seeing 30 deer during a morning hunt while enjoying our much expanded season.  

I feel the morality of baiting is a personal choice. I bait but most of my hunting is not done over the bait.  I would much rather "hunt" an individual buck, decipher his patterns and anticipate his next move.  But conditions here make that difficult.  

My biggest limitation on hunting is time.  I can't take a vacation during the season.  My wife and I are limited to weekends and holidays.  By the second weekend of our season the deer have been over-exposed to hunting pressure by hunters fortunate enough to have time off from work.

Be your own judge.  I find that I am harder on myself than others may be.

I was actually thinking about posting this very question myself after reading an older post by someone who would not hunt over a water hole but would hunt the trail leading to it.  This raised a very similar question in my mind.  As we have seen in the last 8 pages, everyone has their own opinions, experiences, and personal limits.  Most importantly, I think as long as someone is hunting hard, proficient with their weapon of choice, taking ethical shots while abiding by the regulations in their area, who are we to judge.  Not everyone is driven by the same desire or needs, nor has the same time available or even skills as others so they do what they can.  We must keep our hunting heritage alive.  Staying true to your heart is important, but we must take care not condemn others as long as they are legally and ethically pursuing game. We cannot afford to become our own worst enemies and let our internal differences be perceived by the non hunters and anti hunters as a sign hunting is wrong because "even the hunters can't justify it" (or certain aspects of it).

Baiting to me is putting out a pile of corn and waitin for the deer to run to it like a dog bowl. That seems to be what people round these parts get caught doin.

Tell me please why you think coming to a pile of corn is a (unnatural) learned response but coming to a corn field is "natural".  Why is it that a deer running in to a pile of corn is like coming in to a dog bowl but that same deer coming into a planted alfalfa field, or brassica field or any other field is "natural".

Either way the animal is coming to eat.  It is doing something it MUST do.  

Whether it eats at the pile or in the field or under the oak tree is up to it alone.

So you are contending that by putting a pile of donuts in the woods all the bear are magically going to be attracted well beyond their ability to resist ?  That it is not unlike a high fence, giving them no option at all ?

Give me a break.

I don't bait for deer, its not my style, but I also don't think it is substantively "different" or less worthy than sitting on the edge of a planted field, or a tended oak tree or even sitting off a trail that leads to those areas.

In all of those cases you are using the animal's needs and habits in order to get close for a shot opportunity. Something predators have done since they were smart enough to recognize that it makes for a full stomach.

Why one is "bad" and the others are "natural" is a mystery to me.  
ChuckC

Chuck...say you buy a real nice 100 acre piece of property in northern michigan..... big woods... no farmland within a couple hundred miles..... you do not bait...

but a 1/2 mile away the neighboring camp is bringing in truck loads of sugar beets , carrots, corn etc...

Within a few days your deer sightings suddenly disappear... you hunt the same trails , keep the wind in your face , look for available food source and do everything you can to fill your tag.

While the neighbors are having a hay day on their 40 acres of open pines with truck loads of bait in the middle... the does and fawns are all filling their bellies and the bucks are close to the does ....

All these deer have to eat, but there is nothing natural about a beat down deer path running to the middle of that patch of pines...and that path wouldnt exist if there wasn't a pile of bait (foodplot)... the deer would all be on your 100 acres of prime land laying down in the swamp and browsing their way in to your hardwoods.

To each their own , but hunting a "pile" is much different than hunting a farm field or a ridge of oaks.

jacobsladder,

Just for the sake of discussion, I've seen that same situation play out in IL and WI (non-baiting areas) due to food plots.

Jason,

absolutley! same here in michigan.

Bird hunting can offer some analogy's for shooting deer "leading to" natural foods vs "over" intentionally dumped bait.

In duck hunting, it's deemed ethical by most to shoot ducks leading to or from the water. It's fine to shoot them while landing or taking off, but not sitting on the water.

In turkey hunting, it's deemed ethical by most to shoot them right after they've flown down from the roost, but not on roost.

Upon reflection, I think the ethical arguement against bait, without even bringing in the bigger biological and social problems caused, is that baited deer are more akin to shooting ducks on the water or turkeys on the roost.

In my area, baiting by the truckload was popular up until a few years ago. It caused bait wars between neighbors. One owner would bring in a pickup load to get the upper hand, the next would bring in a truck and trailer, the next a dumptruck and the wealthy club owners brought it in by the semi.

Since the bait ban, my bowhunting hasn't been better. With all the neighbors baiting, deer go nocturnal or come out at last light. Now with the ban, deer are up and around looking for food 2 hours before dark and you can actually hunt them.

First off, this is a great topic.

Myself, I hunt black bears in the spring over bait & don't have a problem with it.
When deer hunting I don't use food as bait (to much work haha)  but I do use doe urine.

At the end of the day, if it is legal & the game plentyful, I am ok with it, even if I personally wouldn't do it myself.
Us hunters face enough people & groups against us & our passion, so for me, as a hunter I will never voice my opinion "against" a legal form of hunting.

But that's just my opinion & nothing more.

QuoteOriginally posted by Mojostick:
In duck hunting, it's deemed ethical by most to shoot ducks leading to or from the water. It's fine to shoot them while landing or taking off, but not sitting on the water.

I have also noticed that these "rules" are different for a guy with a bow???  I dont get that, the same guy that shoots a goose on the water is the same guy that wont do it with a gun?  What is the difference.  That and I looked, nowhere in the National Game and Fish laws does it say you cant shoot waterfowl on the water???

If it is legal do it, when it was legal to hunt bear in the spring in Ont.Canada it was the only way to hunt bear, it gave a person a chance to size up the bear, or if you had a sow coming around with cubs, as far as baiting deer in I owa it is illegal, and thats my opinion!

I agree with Mojostick.  Why don't we just blast turkeys out of the tree or shoot the ducks off the water.  Well,  because in most areas it is illegal.  If it were suddenly made legal, would you then all of a sudden regard it as a legitimate practice.  I have a feeling most here would still view it in a negative light and not choose it as a way to take ducks and turkey. And then there would be the other crowd that would come up with all kinds of absurd analogies trying to explain why it is a perfectly fine way to take game- "hey it's legal",  "how is shooting a duck sitting still on the water any different from  shooting a deer standing still, isn't the idea to make a clean humane kill"  etc...etc.

"We don't have to blast them out of the tree or off the water", but honestly, if you shoot them dead in your preferred method they are still dead. Does it really matter exactly where they are standing if you still put your self in the right place and time and fooled their senses.  Heck, its probably harder in some cases to approach them in these "static" locations where they have a chance to see/hear you coming vs. flying clueless into a kill zone...Be careful calling things absurd analogies because you don't like the truth.  the truth is we decide to kill an animal that in most cases, none of us absolutely have to kill to survive--so yes the idea is to make a clean kill. We live in a democracy (maybe for a few more years) and still have a say in what is and is not legal in our home states.  Which means other people completely ignorant in the biological needs for hunting for herd health, and our own personal needs to hunt to fill our  personal needs, can vote to take away our ability to hunt. If you don't like something that is "legal" don't do it.  If you are that against it, work through the system to try to change it, but be careful about causing the majority (non/anti hunters) to see us fighting publicly and give more cause for them to try to limit our passionate pursuits afield.  Do I shoot off the roost and water?  No, but once again, where it is legal...We can argue forever, the bottom line is have fun hunting and don't do anything that goes against your own personal values.  Hunt safe y'all.

I'm really reading two repetitive themes:

1.  If it's legal, it's ok.
2.  Baiting is ok when hunting is hard.

I'm not judging and have already admitted in my previous post that I'd harvest a bear over bait if given the opportunity. My concern is that the two themes dominating the discussion negatively affect the ethics of what we all hold in such high regard.

A bank CEO gets a $50 million bonus after running his company so poorly that he needs $35 billion in Federal aid (our money!). It's legal, but it raises my blood pressure to unsafe levels. The legality argument, I feel, is deferring the ethical choice to a game management agency rather than accepting responsibility for our own actions as hunters. Does "They told me it was OK" feed your soul in the same way as "I finally did it!" ?

We choose traditional tackle because it's hard and we find enjoyment in the challenge! So why are we compromising that challenge when the "hunting" is less than ideal? I live in an area where, if I could stick a feeder in my yard, I could kill a P&Y whitetail every year! But that's missing the whole point of the Pope and Young Club. If I'm not mistaken, the Club was founded in part to record bow harvests as a means of proving to the community at large that bowhunting was indeed an ethical an efficient means of harvesting animals. I guess my point is that "legality" and "difficulty" shouldn't be justification for our hunting ethic and that mentality may lower our collective group to what the non-hunting public perceives as the lowest common denominator.

My point. .  what I am trying to say . . is that there is not a very large line between "baiting" and some other forms of the way we chose to hunt.

I am questioning why "baiting" is held to be such a low down dispicable thing, but hunting over a food plot or any of the other options we discussed is perfectly fine.

Get this.   Although I have hunted bear and pigs / javelina over bait,  I do not hunt deer over bait.  I was brought up to believe that it is not done. .  that you don't need to do that.

Is that why I believe it ?  Is that the only reason ?  Because that is the way I was brought up, trained, what I heard as I was growing up ?

Sitting here, coffee in hand and using my brain to just think about things, I really wonder.

Jacob. .  take your analogy.  The north woods.  ACtually, I have a tiny piece of property up in the UP so it is reality at its finest.  So, my neighbor baits (actually, they all do up there).  That is bad.  Changes the deer habits.

If my neighbor clearcut his land, opened it up to new growth, new possibilities.. would that NOT change the deer habits ?  

If my neighbor cut trees, created openings, planted some food sources (exactly what I am laboring to do for the past several years)  would that not change the deer habits ?   Would "all the deer" now come to my lil place ?

If I were blessed with the only ridge in 5 miles with a handful of oak trees, the rest being typical UP pine and mixed forest, come acorn time, would the deer change their habits and come running to my ridge ?  I actually have a honey hole exactly like this in N WI.  

Am I a bad person for sitting on one of those few trees ?  One of the ones actually dropping acorns ?   How about if I am dropping pebbles from my stand to make it sound like acorns are dropping (dinner bell) ?

Is anything REALLY different ?  The deer are coming to feed, to rest, to drink, whatever and we as predators are noting that and taking advantage of that.

We as humans can actually take it one step further and  . .  not just NOTICE it and react, but we can make changes and CAUSE IT  and react.
Good for us.  That is part of having opposable thumbs and a large brain.  Remember, we don't have noses that can smell a deer trail, or long legs to be able to chase them down etc.

I am not saying pouring a pile of corn is not baiting.  It is.. we have all decided what "baiting" means.  It is probably in the dictionary and it is most certainly in all of the DNR regulations.    

I am asking. . .  what REALLY is the difference.
Maybe adding on another question..  why is it that we as humans get so worked up and excited over things that are different to us ?
ChuckC

Chuck...i agree with you that we shouldnt get so worked up over things that are different to us... but habitat improvement (cutting down trees to provide browse and under growth..planting trees etc..ways of improving the habitat to hold deer and other game is outstanding) and is surely different than dumping bait for deer for a month long period...at least the animals get the benefit from the improved habitat for the rest of the year. Yes any habitat change will change deer habits.....you would benefit from your neighbors clear cut...but you wouldnt from his mound of bait.

I personally am totally for the bait ban... and i'm also for hard work an effort to improve wild life habitat to hold game on ones property.....

There is no federal of state law in MI against shooting water fowl on the water.  It is funny how some people will sky bust a bird way out of range risking a cripple, but poo poo someone calling and decoying a bird right into the spread on the water and shooting it.  But I will leave that one to the other forum I hang out on.

Turkeys on the roost are easy targets.  There is a very good reason most states don't allow shooting them in trees.

QuoteOriginally posted by jacobsladder:
Chuck...i agree with you that we shouldnt get so worked up over things that are different to us... but habitat improvement (cutting down trees to provide browse and under growth..planting trees etc..ways of improving the habitat to hold deer and other game is outstanding) and is surely diffent than dumping bait for deer for a month long period...at least the animals get the benefit from the improved habitat for the rest of the year. Yes any habitat change will change deer habits.....you would benefit from your neighbors clear cut...but you wouldnt from his mound of bait.

I personally am totally for the bait ban... and i'm also for hard work an effort to improve wild life habitat to hold game on ones property.....

:thumbsup:

ChuckC
I hunted in Michigan for nearly 20 years before the use of bait in Michigan became legal.

I hated what it did to deer; and deer hunting.

I saw patterns in the travel of deer from one place to another; and I got deer - before corn ( maybe we should call that B.C. ?)   Then it was a madhouse of roadside stands with piles of beets; and corn; and carrots.
Deer hunting became deer waiting.
People didn't talk about moon phase and rut; they talked about which was better- corn or beets or carrots.

There became an ugly impact from doing it. Really- it is ugly.

To me its another example of doing something to get a deer; that you do not have to do; and that changes the woods- and I think that is offensive in itself.
Oh yeah; when farmer john changed from raising one crop to another- it brought change; and clear cutting caused change too.
But in an odd way these were things that were beyond my control; like the weather- and I had to live with the results; work around them.
Everyone mentions oaks- well I remember finding a bounty of acorns one year and deer frequenting it; and then the next year- well I found out the difference between red and white oaks.

That is the thing; that my learning was important; my interpretation of the land; the plants there; the wind; the changing situations.

Compare that with sitting over a feeder.

But on the other hand- I do fearlessly fight efforts to stop baiting for bears. While deer evolve around finding food sources; the bear- his whole being is figuring out food sources. The social structure is who dominates the food .. and fighting for the rights to them. Its a complex thing- and yes in an area that has not been baited - big bears can be 'had' this way- but in the average bear baiting situation; your hunting bears that have full knowledge of the dangers of bait; and it is just as hard to get an old bear off a bait as getting a big buck.
Baiting deer and baiting bears are really two totally different subjects.

For instance 'bear baiting' in part of the world; is capturing a wild bear; chaining it down; and then beating; stabbing- and torturing it. Its a fun thing where you appease the fears in you by torturing the thing you fear.

Maybe though the ugly part of deer baiting is just the same- you appease the fear of not getting a deer by making it easy.

I do not in any way judge a hunting action by whether or not its legal. I do not appreciate the 'if its legal - then its OK' thinking.

That makes what we do now- right or wrong - based on the vote of people: that have no idea of what is right or wrong .... (take the mountain lion situation in California).

If baiting for deer is ethical -- then why are we arguing for or against it? We don't do that when it comes to the subject of bowhunting- do we?

How would I benefit from my neighbors changes and not from him feeding the deer ? BTW they  feed all year long up there.   and why does my benefiting from the change  matter.  He is still attracting the deer, using food.

If I work hard and bait, is it better than if I don't work hard, and bait ?

What if I am elderly or an invalid and I can't work as hard as I used to, and I bait ?  

What if I am wealthy and hire a crew to make and tend food plots for me ?  

What if I hire a guide to make food plots, tend them, grow and attract the deer, then drive me out to the blind on the edge of the food plot, right near the major trail that the  deer have formed to get to the food plot ?

Hmmm  I didn't think about those options before.  I need another cup of coffee.  Vermonster,  any cookies left ?
ChuckC

It is cabin fever time and time for talking and ,  OK maybe deep discussions.  This topic deals with baiting, but the general gist is .. difference.. difference in tolerance, difference in what I see and do as normal.. from what you may see and do as normal.

This discussion is not gonna solve anything, not likely gonna change anything, but maybe it is a good topic for just sitting back and thinking and talking to each other.

The same general discussion can be had for most anything we do..   Camo / no camo;  scent eliminators / no scent eliminators;  shoot / no shoot  yadda yadda.

Talking and expressing what we are thinking is a good thing.  It certainly gives me a bit more experience from sharing your experiences in addition to my own limited experience.

In the end, if we talk and keep in mind that it is not a fight and just a really deep discussion, we all are better for it.

OK  I have my fresh coffee
ChuckC

I still say that an alfalfa field is bait, as is a corn field or any other agricultural product.
The deer live in the surrounding cover and travel to and from. I have seen trails that were well worn to the point of forming a depression in the ground. A group of White Oaks producing a heavy crop of acorns can be a magnificent deer magnet. An apple orchard. A secluded food plot.

When I hunt such a location, I fully realize that I am taking advantage of "bait". I cannot look at it any other way.

I WILL admit, that it is much less UGLY than the other methods, such as corn piles, and huge piles of sugar beets for sale, being loaded by the TON and hauled to the woods for "hunting".
Bags of carrots rotting, and turning to liquid between gas pumps at every station around. Add the blatant disregard for the recent law banning bait in southern Michigan, and it becomes even more ugly. Disgusting in fact.

I fully support the bait ban in the lower penninsula. I should say I support what it was SUPPOSED to do.

This has been an interesting thread.  A person can quickly see that different regions and hunting cultures have different opinions on this.  I don't know why we lump the baiting of diffent animals all into one issue.  I come from Wisconsin and any hunter from there can tell you first hand this is one of the hottest topics especially when it comes to baiting whitetails. It sets up competition between public land users and private land owners.  It often leads to hostility on public land between hunters.  Others claim it helps spread disease and causes deer to be more nocturnal.  Wisconsin has a two gallon limit on the amount of bait but that is often overlooked and baiting violations are  the most frequent.  A lot of guys say they would not bait but feel they have  to because their neighbor does.  I guess it is kind of like smoking because baiting does effect other hunters even if they don't bait.  Sure there is a lot of positive things about baiting you can say too.  It does bring deer to the pile and gives a hunter the chance to choose their target and wait for the most ethical shot.  If nothing else it gives the hunter plenty of deer to observe and their behavior too.  It also provides a good source of income to the people who grow the bait.  Apple growers where I live now have a source for their grounders. (They can't sell apples that fall on the ground for human comsumption.
In conclusion for those of you that would like to see baiting legal in your state or region be careful what you wish for.

Bonebuster...I understand your point..and ive hunted over a bait pile a few times in big woods.. and ive hunted crop fields many times... the crop field is already there and will most likely be there next year.... the deer will use it for food, cover if corn, and a staging area..It has become part of their habitat. And is the reason why the farm lands are loaded with deer.

so any hunter would look for the obvious sign.... trails leading from cover to the crop field...or even hunt the edge of the crop field...i tend to like to set up closer to bedding areas in the thicker areas and hunt from the ground..

I don't think of it as baiting at all...it has become a natural part of their habitat.....same as a oak grove, apple orchard, or winter wheat field.

You dont have to carry it in with you....fortunately it's already there.....


     :thumbsup:            :thumbsup:            :thumbsup:            :thumbsup:

Others have already expressed it, and probably much more eloquently than I will ever be able to, but I guess for me it comes down to what degree of baiting I'm willing to tolerate, and what I think is too much.  If someone wants to argue that when I go out hunting on land surrounded by hundreds if not thousands of acres of Illinois corn and beans,  it is no different than dumping a pile of corn to attract deer to a concentrated area, I can live with that - I guess I'm baiting then.  I know its not the same regardless of how many ways someone wants to spin it.  Deer can and do come to the fields in a million different locations.  Sure, I will increase my odds with some diligent scounting looking for the most used travel corridors, finding rub and scrape signs...etc.   Out on that ocean of corn/beans there will obviously be some locations that are a lot more promising than others and a smart hunter will focus on those. The fact that the deer can show up in a multitude of different locations is a big difference for me. I've played the game many times, trying to out think the deer. Looking at the wind/weather, knowing what they did last time and then setting up in the location I think is the best option, only to have them show up 400 yds away at the other end of the ocean.   Then move and have it happen in reverse.  Sometimes you choose right and everything comes together.  I don't know about others, but that seems a whole lot different than sitting in a location where you know exactly where the deer will be. I'm sure baited deer do become very spooky and they don't always show up predictably, they go nocturnal...etc...etc, and that can add a lot of challenge to the hunt.   But it sure takes a lot of the guess work out of where you are going to sit that evening.

My family came from the UP of MI.  They moved to the SLP a generation before me.  When I was a small boy I remember them heading off to deer camp in the UP with friends and family back in the old stopping ground where the roads were named after the family tree.  They would bringing back nice bucks with extreme regularity along with strings of grouse and woodcock.  I have albums full of deer and bear on the pole.  No farms, no bait piles.  Just good hunters hunting great habitat.   They are all gone now.  I am sure they would be sad to see it now and to see what "hunting" the UP as become in many places.

A few more points on Wisconsin for clarification.  Baiting is not allowed in all hunting units.  Where CWD is proven to exist baiting is not allowed and in the surrounding areas as well.  Baiting currently mostly takes place in the northern half of the state.  The DNR once had an emergency year ban on baiting statewide because of CWD but had to bring it back because of popular support. Wisconsin's state legislature passed a law limiting baiting for deer to two gallons in units where legal .  Also you can also only put so much bait on private land.  In otherwords you cannot have multiple  two gallon piles.
One more point.  The WTA (Wisconsin Traditional Archers) went on record several years ago voting unanismly to oppose the use of bait for deer hunting at their annual meeting. The WBH Wiconsin bowhunters voted on the issue and it almost split the organization.  They now take a neutral stance on the issue.  The WBH is made up of mostly compound shooters but does have traditional archers as well.  The Wisconsin DNR is also opposed to the use of bait but because of the current legislation cannot do much about it.  All this is food for thought guys.  A lot of my fellow members of the WTA bait for bear and see no contradiction when it comes to deer. I can tell you this for sure, I would not wish this to take place in your state or province. It has been ugly.

OK Guys  Gmatt says we shouldn't be wasting time with this discussion so I guess we'd better stop.......

I'd say that this matter is very simple.

Is the meat you bring home, absolutely necessary for your family to survive, and make a living? If so, you are - in my opinion - allowed to do whatever it takes to get meat on the table.

If you hunt for thrills and excitement, and because you love it, why defeat that exact purpose? A good hunt does not rely on the trophy alone, so there should be no good reason to eliminate the challenge by putting up bait. In hunting, you don't have to win, to have a great experience.

That's my take on this whole thing anyway.

I don't know why you want to drag my name back into this, mr. hoffman.

This is what I said.....FIVE PAGES ago (which was my last entry).

And, I still feel this way.  If you have issues with what I posted.....address the message, and not the messenger.

   

QuoteWith as much controversy (both real and perceived) in the realm of hunting as we have, today.......Do we not have better/more productive things to do.....than to tear down another man's pursuits?

HahAHa  just wanted to make sure you were still reading this one...

:biglaugh: