Okay I have been shooting for quite some time using all wood arrows and Not noticing much of a improvement. I have spent the last six months really just working on form close range every night.
So I went out to the range And I brought several sets of wood Arrows all spinned for my bows and close in weight. I also brought a set of Carbon express 250's that came with my Black widow recurve.
The long and short was with the recurve and the long bow I was able to get a tight group in the dead center consistently about 3.5 inches max with the carbon arrows. Yet with the wood arrows I could not get anything consistent. At best a 12'' group.
I have been making shafts for ages and thought I might be making a fundamental error in it so I picked up a dozen completed arrows from three rivers, whispering winds, and from arrowwoods.com. With the same result.
The only thing I can think of is the Carbon has a larger spine range and I am just missing it with the wood? But I would think that would just move them left or right consistently.
Does anyone have a Idea what I might be doing to have such drastic difference between wood and Carbon shafts? Any help would be appreciated as i compete in group that we have to use wood shafts.
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Either you have bad wood shafts, incorrect spine, or you are doing something different with the wood. There is no plausable reason for a 12" group vs a 3.5 with the carbons. A nearly 9" difference is probably erratic arrow flight and bad spine.
If you spend the time to match the woodies and keep them straight you can stack them together, but carbon is going to be more consistent, shaft to shaft (or at least it's supposed to be :mad: )
The other factor to consider is that carbon arrows will recover from paradox quicker. The quicker an arrow recovers the less sensitive it will be to release/form/other shooter errors.
Me, I use hardwoods mostly. The last batch of carbons I bought didn't hold up worth a da** to stumping.
The mind is a powerfull tool.
If you think something works good, you will make it work good, even when you don't know it.
There is nothing wrong with wood!
You just need to do some bareshafting.
Jim
I agree with what Jim.
That is the odd thing is I started bare shaft tunning. I have three arrows of each dozen that are with out fletching. And I can get them grouping in the center at 5 yards along with the fleched.
I had not heard that the Carbon arrows recover faster from a poor release, That may be it. I was testing at 20 yards and did not try any farther because I figured if I was blowing it at 20 no reason to back up.
I have seen plenty of people using wood arrows and doing great with some I am sure either I am going back to a flaw in style with the Wood or The spine and straightness need to be checked. I hoping it is just my release. I use a split finger release with a glove maybe I am pinching the wood and not the carbon?
Eric, if your woodies bare shaft well, there's no reason for them to shoot worse than the carbons. When I have "bad" woods that I know are the right spine, it's usually a crooked nock. That will cause more problems with accuracy than anything else IMO.
You have to be sure that the woods all spine the same, within a few pounds, to get equal performance. If you don't have a spine tester, I recommend that you get one. Just because the supplier advertised matched shafts, that doesn't mean they actually are.
Another possibility is fletching clearance. If you know everything else is right, try turning the cock feather in. If it's a clearance problem, that should make a difference.
QuoteOriginally posted by Eric73:
That is the odd thing is I started bare shaft tunning. I have three arrows of each dozen that are with out fletching. And I can get them grouping in the center at 5 yards along with the fleched.
One suggestion: Bare shaft tuning at 5 yards is pretty much worthless. The shaft doesn't have enough time to start planing to get any meaningful results. I'd start at a minimum of 15 yards.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
QuoteOriginally posted by Eric73:
That is the odd thing is I started bare shaft tunning. I have three arrows of each dozen that are with out fletching. And I can get them grouping in the center at 5 yards along with the fleched.
One suggestion: Bare shaft tuning at 5 yards is pretty much worthless. The shaft doesn't have enough time to start planing to get any meaningful results. I'd start at a minimum of 15 yards. [/b]
YES
I would think if your getting good groups with the carbon and not the woodies..maybe your knocking point is to low for the woodies. A fatter wood arrow will have a slightly higher knocking point than a skinny carbon..just a thought.
On the bright side this gives you an idea how much better you can make your woodies!
Comparing the grouping and accuracy of good woodies to good carbons the difference is miniscule or less.
There are a couple of foundational items you need if you don't have them: Spine tester, woodchuck, grain scale, a proper fletching tool like a Bitzenberger, decent wood and the ability to finger straighten. And Presto!!
You have to be back 17-20 yards, you have to see what the arrow is doing, not how it sticks, or hits the target. Watch the flight of the arrow.
I've spined alot of shafts over the years, I can tell you that right now on average, you get a little better than 65% of whats marked on the box. The big suppliers don't have the time or inclination to spine your shafts. So that leaves you with 35% of your arrows that are not going to shoot.
Buy hand spined shafts, or get a spine tester. Spine is THE most important thing to getting good arrow flight. It's not FOC!
Jim
Exactly what Bjorn said!
Good tapers are very omportant.
When I got a spine tester it was a real eye-opener! Shafts that were supposed to be a #5 spread were close to #10, one set had a #12 spread.
Making a good set of woodies will consume a little more of your time than carbon or alunimum.
Eric
A good part of the issue is I may have done all my bare shaft tuning just to close I will move out to 15 yards. SO the nock and maybe even the brace heights are all off for the wood but on for the carbon.
I do have a spine tester and a woodchuck taper tool and a Bitzenberger for the fletching. My grain scale is broken I will have toi get a new one. I always wonder if I am using the spine tester correctly? But when ever I order pre-made shafts they agree with the spine tester for what I ordered.
QuoteOriginally posted by George D. Stout:
Either you have bad wood shafts, incorrect spine, or you are doing something different with the wood. There is no plausable reason for a 12" group vs a 3.5 with the carbons. A nearly 9" difference is probably erratic arrow flight and bad spine.
George you have no idea how many of your posts I read, all of it good stuff. If only you sat at the lunch counter of my local lunch place.
I have had a couple sets of wood shafts that half of the batch simply would not fly right. Occasionally, I will get one or two that have a mind of their own, but if it is a whole set of arrows I would say something else is going on. When I had a shooting machine, I could tell very little difference between woods and anything else. Back then I used it to find differences in fiberglass shafts. I would not recommend building a good shooting machine. It is amazing how many arrows one can wreck when it is set up right.
I shot Woodies for more years than I can count and found that if the spine is correct for my Bows,and assuming that I had good quality shafts,I never had an issue with flight or accuracy unless I had a warped shaft.
But,I did try the carbon shfts last year and am sold the Carbon Express Heritage 90's & 150's for consistant weight and flight characteristics,as well as, being able to tune the arrow by weight etc.
I think you are really comparing a hummer to a station wagon. One is really strong and light, one is weaker and heavy. the only major difference between wood and carbon is that wood breaks easily and carbon does not
I have a picture that I can't post here because it involves a compound bow. It's a 20-yard regulation indoor target with 5 wood arrows in the 5 x-rings, no other holes. That's what good woods can do, if they're properly matched to the bow and each other, even a compound. Dan Quillian had one of his employees who was a serious compound competitor do this, to make a point.
Good woods are as good as anything, if you know what you're doing.
Some really good information here.
The only real difference I have noticed with wood vs. carbon is the woodies take longer to make and break easier. If anything, they tend to be more forgiving than carbons, for me at least. If you can shoot 3.5" groups with the carbons, properly spined wood arrows should be about the same, assuming your nock and brace height are correct.
I think the spine and the nock taper are the two biggest things to watch. I have not seen a lot of difference in how they fly when their physical weight is different. I can shoot ones that are off by 25 grains and not tell any difference at all. Of course your nock set and brace height must be right also. Gary
Carbon or aluminum are going to be better matched than all but the very best wood arrows.I agree however that much difference at 20 yards sounds like your wood arrows are not matched well to the bow.
Bareshafting is best done at longer ranges.If you are capable of shooting those groups there is no reason not to bareshaft at least from 20yds.More is even better.Up close is a waste of time and can give you false results on what you think is happening.jmho
Okay the issue was two fold as I found when I got to shoot this weekend. One the nock set was set for the carbon arrows and not the 11/32 wood shafts. The other was spine. I have a new Black Widow recurve and it is nice but the Manual states that would arrows are to week to shoot through there bows and you have to follow this equation to get the correct spine range. The equation shows you need to use only 80# to 85# out of a 55# re-curve at my draw length and I believed it and was shooting those. After the issues I had I brought dozens of my arrows for different bows and found the 60# to 65# shot great I was getting almost the same group as with the carbon. With a occasional odd ball but that may have been me as much as the Arrow. Thanks for all the help It really helped me narrow done the possibilities. I had originally thought it must have been just me doing something and i am glad to find out it was just paying more attention to what the manual said than what I was seeing.
Good for you Eric....it's all about getting out there and seeing what "works for you" bud.
Manuals and "calculators" are good starting points...but shooting/ testing yourself is the bottom line....
I love to shoot wood and have better with arrows I make than the ones I have ordered, but also get a lot better groups with carbon. I think one thing is they have a smaller diamiter making them more of a center shot
QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
Good for you Eric....it's all about getting out there and seeing what "works for you" bud.
Manuals and "calculators" are good starting points...but shooting/ testing yourself is the bottom line....
curt said it all. period.
i LOVE making and shooting wood arrows, but the plain truth is that they require good knowledge and care in building, and matching for flight afterwards. they shouldn't be used by newbies as they are inferior to synthetic shaft materials in terms of trueness consistency. they require constant attention during shooting.
but i'll never stop building, shooting and hunting with 'em. :thumbsup:
Hey Jim, I've got to stop shooting in the garage at twelve yards. These arrows are to expensive to be splitting them every couple of shots. :clapper: