Ok with all the hubbub on skinny strings and increase in speed lately (I love my skinny strings by the way) I want to determine something.
I would guess that a 5 feet per second increase would be a big deal while shooting at a critter especially if it tried "Ducking the string". So I need someone way smarter than I to figure this one out. Just for reason of making it simpler lets say a bow was 5'/sec faster with a skinnier string installed. Lets say the bow was now shooting 200'/sec. How much would that calculate out to be on a 20 yard shot???
Unless your arrow is going about 1100fps you are at a disadvantage as far as deer jumping the string. If you get one to go that fast let me know. A quiter bow will serve you better. H
Not enough to combat string jumping.
I read some research on this about 20 years ago and it came to the conclusion that to consistantly beat an already alert Whitetail,you would need to be shooting somewhere in the area of 500fps.
To me and I guess a lot of others speed in a "huntingbow" is more just an interesting subject rather than a "big deal".
I can miss em" or hit em" just as good with either my fast or my slow bows.
Somebody will give you the exact spect's re speed over distance,,,but it ain't 'that" interesting to me;^)
Well Robert my thought is if a deer is trying to duck the string and the 5'/sec allows your arrow to get there that much faster it may be just enough difference in a recovery or a wounded animal. Lets say that speed increase would mean a 4" difference on the animal by the time the animal dropped out from under the slower arrow. That's where I'm going with this.
The difference in terms of 'duck avoidance' is miniscule like GH says, quiet is key for that. The 5 FPS increase is like shooting a bow that is 3# heavier approximately, or pulling an inch more and it is 'free'.
Does anyone have a medium bow, or is everything that is not fast, slow; and is everything that is not slow, fast? I have a medium bow...actually medium-plus. :confused:
My car is not ultra fast, but it is not slow. My wife is not fat, but she is not skinny.
I'm not a rocket scientist, but I'm not a moron.
:saywhat:
I like the fact that there are other grades of things. :thumbsup: :goldtooth:
I think he wanting trajectory.
I am positive that it won't help with deer ducking.they can duck 300 fps bows.
Deer and we,are supposed to react quicker to noise than visual cues so I think that quieting the bow can do a lot more for you than any little speed gain we can get from tweeking equipment.We can control the noise of the bow quite a bit.A skinny string may help a lot of bows,some in that regard.
I do like the way some bows respond to the FF strings-just the way they feel and the quietness of them.If they gain a few FPS,that can't be a bad thing though probably won't make a difference in the real world.Probably,preferable to losing FPS.
I think a very quiet bow and a completely relaxed deer are the best prevention.
Quite is what you want.Until the bow comes along that shoots faster than the speed of sound,jump'n the string can be and will be an issue. A quite bow is your friend!!!
5 fps is equivalent to short drawing between 1/2 - 1 inch. You will not notice any trajectory issues at normal hunting distances. One day I took out a mix of arrows ranging anywhere from 550 grains to over 600 grains so you are probably talking differences of up to 20 fps range. At 20 yrds, they were all grouping. I also have a longbow that shoots a 650 grain arrow around 170 fps and a recurve that shoots a 495 grain arrow 185 fps. I shoot 3 under. The point on distance for the longbow is 32 yrds. The point on distance for the recurve is 40 yrds. 15 fps difference equated to only 8 yrds difference in the point on distance. that being said the 650 grain arrows drops very quickly past 32 yrds.
5 fps faster will not make much of a difference with a critter jumping the string. Speed of sound at sea level is 1125 fps. The math is not in it for archery. Yes 5 fps will flatten trajectory but it's marginal. If you know your set-up, arrow trajectory is a mute point.
It's better to have a quite bow and make close shots.
I used to shoot PAA targets with a variety of limbs out of a variety of Bear metal handles with sights. At 20 yards, the standard indoor PAA distance, changing limbs from lighter to heavier had very little effect on the pin adjustment. With one change of 10 pounds, using the same arrows, I would move the pin to the bottom of the PAA center ring. that was at most an inch difference at twenty yards. To say that that speed change would get the jump on a jumpy deer is a variable that cannot be answered. I have found in my own hunting from the ground situations that a quicker smoother shot with a quieter bow can make more of a difference. Deer seem to have an individual patience level before they react. I lose more chances by being to deliberate and simply running out of time to get a shot off in the first place. That is why I went to straight gripped longbows and changed my shooting style from static target form to Hill form.
Adding 5 fps is adding more power to your set up.
I see no way that is not a good thing.
5fps isn't that big a deal.
BUT...
5fps from a more efficient string + 5 FPS from trimming silencers + 5 FPS from better tuning...
You get the point. There are lots of places ina bow and arrow setup to improve efficiency. Taken one by one they don't amount to much. Taken all together they are the difference between a bow you can pull on stand at 10 degrees and one you can't.
My ears tell me a fast bow is a loud bow upon arrow release. I like a slow and quiet bow.
Being able to shoot a heavey arrow at a faster speed increases your penitration! As a bonus for me when I head out in the plains a little flatter trajacory with my heavy arrows are great when I expect to be offered a little farther shots. If you can keep the bow quiet and allow me to shoot my heavier hunting arrows a little faster I'll take it
Tom,
On a calculator that I have used in the past it showed a 1" difference at 20 yards and a 2" difference at 30 yards...
This was a 4" feather... and 500 grain arrow... just wild numbers thrown out there... with arrow speed calculated at 195 and then 200 FPS...
Jonathan
The simple answer to the question he asked is that the arrow traveling at 200 fps over 60 ft will take .3 seconds to arrive, the arrow traveling 195 fps gets there in .30769 seconds.
So we're not talking a lot of time.
We went to thinner strings not for speed but because they were quiet.
Quiet is good!!
Mike
5 FPS a significant gain? Depends on the speed you started with. 10FPS? Now you're talking, if you can do it w/o a big increase in noise or decrease in shootability.
Will it matter as far as jumping the string? Not a chance.
Will it matter in regard to a flatter trajectory
resulting in a larger hit window? Absolutely.
On the subject of bow noise; IMO a deer can hear the most quiet bow owned by anyone here at 100 yards. What matters is if it is alert enough to pay attention & react to it...
QuoteOriginally posted by Night Wing:
My ears tell me a fast bow is a loud bow upon arrow release. I like a slow and quiet bow.
Fast has nothing to do with loud. Light arrows make loud bows. Slow has nothign to do with quiet. Heavy arrows make bows efficient, and therefore quiet.
200 FPS @ 500 grains = 44lbs KE
195 FPS @ 500 grains = 42lbs KE
SO you gain approximately 5% in performance. Would you turn down a 5% pay raise without having to do anything extra to get it?
Any gain in fps or quietness is a plus.
The reality is that as long as your bow has enough energy to make clean kills then speed is secondary to having a quiet bow. It's going to be this way until a bow shoots faster than the speed of sound. Whether your bow shoots 170 feet per second or 350 feet per second, it's all for nothing if it's as loud as a train wreck.
Thanks Johathon, Mike and David that's what I was looking for.
OK, here's the math. 20 yards equals 60 feet. An arrow traveling 200 feet per second (much faster than most traditional bows,by the way) will reach the target in exactly .3 seconds (60 divided by 200). If, on the other hand, the arrow is traveling a whopping 205 fps, the arrow will reach the target in .2926 seconds (60 divided by 205). That's a whopping difference of .0074 seconds. That's 74 one thousands of a second. If the deer jumps the string, you gain maybe one hair's thickness on the deer with the 5fps faster arrow. In short, it makes no noticeable difference. If deer can get out of the way of a wheelie shot arrow coming at them at 350fps or more, they're sure going to duck an arrow at 205 fps .Better to have a quiet bow, shoot at an unalarmed deer, etc. :readit:
QuoteWould you turn down a 5% pay raise without having to do anything extra to get it?
Not an accurate comparison. As I've said before, quoting my favorite bowyer, "everything is a trade-off". The question is, is the trade-off worth it to you? For some it is, for some it isn't. You can pick up a lot more by learning to use proper back tension which extends your draw length, shoot a couple more lbs of draw weight, and/or just shoot a faster bow. In the quest for optimum speed/performance, these will add up a whole lot quicker than a tiny string and trimming silencers a few grains. 'Course these have trade-offs too.
IMO, if you are using a weapon so marginal that 5-10 fps is the difference between a clean kill and a wound or miss, you might consider a different weapon. Fred Bear killed a bull elephant with one arrow pulling a 70-something lb bow. The string was dang near a clothsline, and the bow wasn't what we'd call "high performance" today. His broadheads were file-sharpened and double bevel, and didn't weigh 800 grains each.
My best friend's daughter killed a big whitetail doe (over 100#) with a quartering toward her shot (it was her first bow kill--she didn't know any better) pulling a little over 30# at maybe 25-26" with an arrow that weighed around 400 grains. Her broadhead wasn't even a single bevel. The deer went maybe 60 yds. before piling up. 10 or 12 strand Dynaflight '97 string. Recurve.
There ain't no magic set-up. There's no magic bow, no magic arrow, no magic broadhead, and no magic string. People have been killing animals all over the world with bent sticks, hardened wood/bone/stone for points, and rawhide, sinew, or plant fiber for strings since the beginning of time. Some still do.
Point being, it's fun to tinker and compare, but those who don't know any better that read these threads need to hear both sides of the story.
Should we be using the absolute best, most efficient weapons we can get our hands on? You might want to think about that one a bit before you answer.
The original question was covered just fine. 5fps doesn't mean much when it comes to killing, or even hitting a target. I'm fat and crippled and can easily cover 5 feet in a second.
Chad
Pulled this from the A&H website. Enjoy!
What does it mean when you hear that a bow is faster than another?
First of all, you must remember that measurements that are not acquired using precise and accurate procedures, equipment and testing techniques are suspect at best. However let's assume that you have two bows that have been properly tested and one has an AMO speed that's 5 fps faster than the other. Or maybe it's 10 or 15 fps faster than the other. Is that a big deal or not?
Think of it this way - if you test most any bow (precisely) with a 9 grains per pound arrow at 28" and then again (precisely) with a 9 grains per pound arrow at 29", it will be 4-5 fps faster. Remember why that is? It's because the stored energy for a 29" draw length is greater than for a 28" draw length, all other things being equal.
Have you ever wished your draw length was 1" longer? Have you ever short-drawn your bow by 1" and noticed the difference in arrow trajectory? An accurately-measured difference of 5 fps in AMO arrow speed between bows is HUGE. It is far from insignificant and anyone who says otherwise has never really thought it through.
Now, consider a 10 fps or a 15 fps (or even more) difference in AMO arrow speed. Want to add 2 or 3 more inches to your draw length? It's easy - just get a bow that performs well.
Remember - talk is cheap. Proof is absolute. Don't ever let anyone tell you that there is no difference between bows. And don't ever let anyone tell you that 5 or 10 (or even more) fps difference in AMO arrow speed is insignificant.
Thanks Orion. That really puts it into perspective.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
OK,because I have nothing better to do at the moment, here's the math. 20 yards equals 60 feet. An arrow traveling 200 feet per second (much faster than most traditional bows,by the way) will reach the target in exactly .3 seconds (60 divided by 200). If, on the other hand, the arrow is traveling a whopping 205 fps, the arrow will reach the target in .2926 seconds (60 divided by 205). That's a whopping difference of .0074 seconds. That's 74 one thousands of a second. If the deer jumps the string, you gain maybe one hair's thickness on the deer with the 5fps faster arrow. In short, it makes no noticeable difference. If deer can get out of the way of a wheelie shot arrow coming at them at 350fps or more, they're sure going to duck an arrow at 205 fps .Better to have a quiet bow, shoot at an unalarmed deer, etc. :readit:
When you think about it this way, I should slow my bow down some more and hope that the deer goes down and comes back up before the arrow gets there.
Honestly that almost happened once.
Deer drop under the arrow on compounds so your trad gear will not be close to the speed required for that. You do have a edge if the string makes your shot have less sound. Speed may help with your range but will not help with an alert deer.
Dave
"And don't ever let anyone tell you that 5 or 10 (or even more) fps difference in AMO arrow speed is insignificant."
Not to argue with Larry or John, but for most of us 5-10 fps is insignificant, especially hunting. It's only going to matter if you are right on the bare edge with your equipment....and I gave my opinion on that. 75 or so lbs will cleanly kill a bull elephant, even with a marginal set-up. 35# will kill a large whitetail, even with a marginal set-up.
On one of the other threads there's even a discussion about bow noise, and how much difference it really makes. The deer will hear the arrow, if not the bow. Spooky deer will react, period. Wonder if there's been any studies on that?
As far as "jumping the string", it would not make any difference.
As far as "flatter shooting", who cares at 20 yds?
As far as "better penetration", it just might, especially with a 750 grn. arrow.
like I said in another thread, you dont buy a truck and worry about MPG so you shouldnt worry about FPS with a trad bow :)
I never understand why so many are so against getting everything out of your equipment. If you gain quiet and speed/efficiency out of a thinner string, why be so against it? When you start adding up all the small parts you can do to improve your shooting it quickly adds up to a much greater whole. Clean release, getting a full draw(form, form, form!), properly tuned arrows, good FOC, and yes a properly tuned string. All parts of the equation that = accuracy/full freezer.
Totally agree Vermonster.
I'm not against it, I'm just trying to be fully objective. It's not "free" performance. You pay in durability, stretch/creep, and adjustability, and in some cases more. Some folks obviously feel it's a good trade-off, others don't. I feel like everyone should be informed about the pro's AND the cons.
Strings are my passion and my business. I do my best to stick with facts. I've been in this business for several years now, and plan to be in it for several more. It's only in my best interests to give the best and most accurate information I can.
Chad
Durability maybe but I always have a spare string in my pack. Stretch/creep my 8strand D-97 has stretched a whopping 3/16 on a 53# longbow it' been on the bow two months with out being unstrung, and been shot I don't know how many times. I seen only pros and no cons.
I seem to have a better release with the fatter strings. I tried the skinny string on one of my bows and it seemed to me like it bit into my American leathers glove more than the fast flight or the bonnyl string. When I shot heavy bows I never noticed this, but now I am down to the low fifties it shows up more. Even with the fast flight I have become pretty dependent on keeping powder on the glove.
I'm certainly not against more speed, and I do everything I can to get as much of it as I can out of my equipment. The question was, to paraphrase, will 5 fps make a difference if the deer jumps the string. The answer is NO!
QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Shelton:
like I said in another thread, you dont buy a truck and worry about MPG so you shouldnt worry about FPS with a trad bow :)
Uh, I worry about the performance of both my truck and my bow. Why should I pay more than I have to in order to get the job done?
Heres the way i look at it, if it matters.
Im sitting in my den, i decide to make a string for my widow. All i do is leave out 6 or maybe 4 strands. Low and behold doing that simple little thing i gain a little more speed and the main thing it makes my bow a lot quieter.
So i can either shoot the same arrow faster or a heavier arrow the same speed and the bow is quieter and all i did is save on string material.
I dont see a down side here.
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
Quote
IMO, if you are using a weapon so marginal that 5-10 fps is the difference between a clean kill and a wound or miss, you might consider a different weapon.
[/b]
I agree. Tinkering is fun, but sometimes we need to keep things in perspective...and realistic.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Shelton:
like I said in another thread, you dont buy a truck and worry about MPG so you shouldnt worry about FPS with a trad bow :)
Uh, I worry about the performance of both my truck and my bow. Why should I pay more than I have to in order to get the job done? [/b]
I am sorry that was frazed wrong, I should have said you dont buy a truck and compare it to a hybrids MPG, and I think when you try and push speed out of a trad bow you are sort of comparing it to its wheelie cousin!
To me---speed equals penetration....period.
Shooting a relatively low energy bow (50@27), I want to get every bit of penetration out of that I can. Yes my arrows are tuned perfectly, and I can pretty much hit what I aim at.
I'm sure there aren't too many of us who shoot a deer, then say "man I wish my arrow hadn't penetrated that far"!!
Plus, speed is cool :goldtooth:
QuoteTo me---speed equals penetration....period
Mass equals penetration.....momentum! Slow and heavy will out penetrate fast and light anyday. The key is to get the best of both worlds!
QuoteOriginally posted by MSwickard:
QuoteTo me---speed equals penetration....period
Mass equals penetration.....momentum! Slow and heavy will out penetrate fast and light anyday. The key is to get the best of both worlds! [/b]
Yes, I agree. But if I'm shooting the same arrow faster-I will have more momentum. That is my point. I'm in now way advocating shooting soda straws.
I just read through this thread, and I like alot of the responses.
Even when I shot wheels, I would take quiet over fast any day. No bow can shoot fast enough to beat a whitetail's reaction, IMO.
With that being said, there are countless other variables that should move the light in our heads from green to red, or vice versa, at the moment of truth. Body language, angle of shot, distance of shot, etc.
I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in general. It is about what works for you, what you are comfortable with and efficient with. If it is a skinny string, so be it. If it is a thick one, more power to ya. I guess Im trying to say I find it hard to believe 2# of KE or 5 fps are going to make or break a hunt. When you are shooting at an animal, know your equipment, it's limits, and your limitations with it.
Maybe Im too new to be worried about it... :campfire:
It's obvious that lot's of people have different opinions on the subject. I just wish that people would quit saying that they prefer quiet to fast, when the evidence suggests that you get both of these with skinny strings. I see an argument being made against the skinny strings regarding creep and durability. I think for certain types of material creep may be a factor, but with others the amount of creep is less than with standard strings. As far as durability goes, are we talking about the strings or the bows? Has there been any studies out there that have shown this to be fact?
Well I will take every 5fps I can get for nothing. :)
By itself it might not mean much but when I add up all the little things I can shoot lighter bows and not ever worry about penitration like many seem to.I don't feel like I am giving up anything in durability or anything else to get it either.
True enough, James. And it doesn't stop you from using back tension, having a clean release, etc..
QuoteYes, I agree. But if I'm shooting the same arrow faster-I will have more momentum. That is my point. I'm in now way advocating shooting soda straws.
In that case speed is good!!!!
A faster bow means I can shoot a heavier arrow. I like that.
It doesn't matter that much, to me.
To steal a phrase from someone else, posted recently......
I'm a 2-3/4" shell guy.
Ishi, you sum it up very nicely.
pdk, the string and it's common sense. A 1" rope is going to be stronger, more durable, less susceptable to cuts, and last longer (doing the same job) than a 1/2" rope.
You don't get something for nothing. You can be comfortable with the trade-offs or even ignore them, but they are there regardless.
How much extra arrow weight does 3-7 fps allow for?
The jury is out on noise, at least until some reliable testing is done with a decimeter or similar tool. Our ears don't hear a dog whistle, but that doesn't keep the dog from hearing it.
this question is pretty easy to figure out:
1.deer hear the sound way before the arrow gets close to them therefore they jump.
2.a fast bow will get your arrow there in time maybe,maybe not but your odds go up with a fast bow.
3.find a very fast bow thats quiet and you're in em.but they can still go matrix on ya and duck under your arrow.elk are pretty slow compared to a deer but i actually had a spike bull come in once while shooting a 280fps compound he was so wired up that when i shot at him he ducked my arrow clean as can be.i think a lot of it hinges on what emotional state the animal is in when you shoot at it....jmtc
LBR: To my ears, the skinny strings make a big difference, but I will grant you that it hasn't been tested adequately. Even if they are more quiet, it may not make a difference in virtually any hunting situation. I find it more comforting, one way or another. As far as a thicker rope being stronger and more durable, I will agree with that only if you are using the same material. Otherwise, it is far from common sense. You are right, you don't get something for nothing and we may not realize what lays ahead. I don't really care if anyone uses or doesn't use a skinny string. Maybe it will damage the bows down the road. Maybe instead of being able to shoot 10,000(arbitrarily chosen number) shots safely you will only be able to shoot 7000. I know that a skinny string not only improved the performance of one of my old recurves, but also made it more quiet to my ears. I'm gonna take the chance that this skinny string made out of a different material won't have too much of a bad effect on the bow. For someone to say that they know otherwise at this point is disingenuous.
i don't have any experience with skinny strings ... they are an anathema to my fingers which prefer a thicker string after some attempts years ago with ' skinny strings ' . i think this all equates to ' everything in moderation ... including moderation ' .
on my string follow longbows [ my main hunting bows ] shooting douglas fir i couldn't care less about extra speed as they shoot where i am looking very quietly and this is what i want in my hunting bows . but on my 'hotter ' ILF 'curve rigs where i often use sights I try and get as much speed as i can without turning the bow into a 52' Telecaster through a 10 watt overdriven amp ... will the deer still jump the string ? probably ... but the pig at 35 yards may not ...
tis fun finding out though ....
Ben
Back to TJ's original question...I think it's been answered - nope, your 5fps won't help on string-ducking deer.
The REAL answer to string ducking deer is to either become a better deer hunter or be more careful picking shots at them.
I think the idea of becoming a better overall woodsman/hunter often gets lost in trying to overcome equipment "shortcomings" - if you want to call them shortcomings - by tweaking setups. Maybe I'm just a stick in the mud, but I think it is WAY more fun spending more time in the woods becoming a better woodsman/hunter than it is to do math at home.
Just my 2 cents (or less) worth...
R
QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Shelton:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Shelton:
like I said in another thread, you dont buy a truck and worry about MPG so you shouldnt worry about FPS with a trad bow :)
Uh, I worry about the performance of both my truck and my bow. Why should I pay more than I have to in order to get the job done? [/b]
I am sorry that was frazed wrong, I should have said you dont buy a truck and compare it to a hybrids MPG, and I think when you try and push speed out of a trad bow you are sort of comparing it to its wheelie cousin! [/b]
Now there we agree.
Speed for the sake of speed isn't a good goal, IMHO. If you can get more work out of the same setup without a tradeoff, though, it's dumb to just leave penetration sitting on the table.
yup, alot of compound hunters like speed too much. And what good is a ultra light arrow that moves real fast if it doesnt do its job when it gets there? But I definatly dont see no harm in a good Fast flight or something similar that would give you a few more FPS
I don`t think anyone has had this answer. Its my way of shooting deer that squat. I once tried making my bows super quiet. did`nt work for me. In all the years I bowhunted And missed a lot of deer high I started shooting for the heart.Sounds crazy to some of you calm deer killers I know . deer around my house are on their toes. I made`m that way..lol.You either double lung the deer which is best or you heart shoot`m . I prefer the double lung cause they don`t go as far.
I have a good Friend that shot over a lot of deer before we met. I mean a lot. I told him if he shot for the heart for every deer he shoots under he`ll kill 15. I think he killed 9 in a row last year.
The super quiet bow don`t work for me I don`t want it LOUD but a little bit of noise is ok because I`m gonna shoot`m where they are gonna be instead of where they are at.Ask any Texas hunter where they aim on a deer.RC
I like your idea for aiming, RC. I made the mistake of aiming just under, rather than for the heart, on a calm buck this year. Arrow went right where I wanted it to.
The deer I hunt must be wired different around here. I shoot where I want to hit them. I haven't had a deer jump the string on me in over 20 years. Of course shooting a quiet longbow with 600 grn arrows helps.
I used to shoot a loud as heck compound at 297 ft/sec. Sounded like a muffled 22short going off. Never had one duck. All shot were under 25yds. A normal trad bow might have shot an arrow around half that speed or a little faster. I honestly think the ducking is luck of the draw when we're talking sound. Now if the deer sees the arrow or sees you release that's something different all together. That's my opinion anyway
I agree shoot low and your percentage for kills will improve!
Good question...ask this guy:
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001890
I never get caught up in the speed I lean more toward the heavier arrow, skinny string, quieter bow while still spitting them out there. Ed
RC that makes a lot of sense to me because this was my first year hunting trad and i shot over the first two i shot at.
The 3rd deer was a nice 8 and i aimed lower on that deer and killed my first trad animal.
Im going to stack those suckers up next year. :thumbsup: