Trad Gang

If you are going to be disappointed after seeing numbers, from a bow that shoots great and hits the target, you may want to get some therapy 8^)).

Last bow I chronographed was in 1980.  I know how bows shoot by shooting them.  I want them to be quiet, and dead in the hand.  I want them to fall within a point-on for target/arrow connection that suits my style and form...from 50 to 60 yards.   And that is with a hunting weight arrow of between 9 and 10 grains per pound.  My choice of weight range.

People get so enamored with numbers they will buy a bow that is porported to be fast but they can't shoot it worth a darn...amazing.  For my shooting style, and my arrows, I think somewhere between 170 fps and 180 fps fits the balance nicely.  Ultra fast bows are generally finicky too, especially on the bottom end of the grains per pound spectrum.     :saywhat:  

And if I ever do shoot through a chronograph, I will not need to have therapy, I will already have a good idea of what it will say.  Numbers don't impress this old curmudgeon....putting the arrows where they should go, does.   :thumbsup:

I love gaining knowledge & fiddling, so I chronograph my bows with various arrow types, weights, and spines.

What surprised me is unlike compounds, with recurves there is little difference between bows in performance given the same draw weight/length & arrow weight.  Even the high end/high performance recurves aren't jaw droppingly faster than the other stuff, all else being equal.

My bows, from lower cost imported production through semi-custom to full custom, which are 51#-54# at my 28.5" draw length with arrows of 500 or so grains, ALL shoot in the low-mid 180's.

So being, IMO feel & shootability are most important, followed by pride of ownership, and performance last when you buy a trad bow.

I had three of my bows shot through chronos for speed.  I hit the rim on the first one I had someone else shoot for me. I was surprised how fast two of them were and shocked how much slower my Bear takedown was in comparison.  So I put on a set of limbs I got from Bear that were newer and shorter and got 15 fps more. These bows are all old bows, but two of them got as much speed built into them as the bows of today. There were speed differences in the magnesium Bear takedown with different setups. I wish Bear still made all of that stuff, even if other bows are faster, they were still great bows.

pavan, the last bow I chronographed was Bear Takedown, 65# with a 1718 Graphlex arrow, shot 196fps average....that was a new bow in 1980...the Gainesville model.  That was at the Pa. Bowhunter Festival.  My buddy at the time had a 67 pound Jennings Arrowstar, and with his arrows he got 187fps average.  He sold it the next month and ordered a Bear Takedown.  His arrows were Easton 2117 aluminum and about twenty grains lighter than mine.   He still shoots traditional to this day.    

:thumbsup:

After getting one I don't believe some of the things I read

OK are you sitting down George?  If the bow shoots great and hits where you are looking than the numbers mean nothing....That's so True George.  What I like about a chrono is that, when a guy says his bow shoots 210fps, or he did this and got a extra 10fps. You can say "Let's See"  If it does great..  Most times he's way off.

It's a nice tuning tool, to find the sweet spot for brace height. (other than sound/feel)YMMV

I have a chrono, my son and I use it from time to time to check our set ups and most recently we used it to work on release. A very worthwhile item to have, or at least have access to.

QuoteOriginally posted by rraming:
After getting one I don't believe some of the things I read

:rolleyes:  me too.

George, I did not mean for a moment that speed was the most important thing about how well a bow and arrow combo works, but it is important.  If I have offended you, I am sorry.  Why I brought this topic up is that I have noticed that quite a few of trad gang members that list their bow weights and draw length are typically in the low to mid 50's.  With arrow weights in the 9-10gpp range of hunting weight arrows, I have chronographed very few that have made it to 180fps.  Most are in the mid 170's.  Longbows, even the hybrids seldom break into the 170's.  The only way I've ever gotten the longbows of that weight class into the upper 170's is with an extremely low brace height and bare{unsilenced} string.

I find it a valuable tool for working on bows and tuneing.I am never dissapointed in numbers because well..they are just numbers.  :biglaugh:  

Shooting through a crony on a regular basis is the best thing in the world for cleaning up your release.I disagree about the cat whiskers being the worst thing for robbing performce.A crappy release and a little creep intstead of useing back tension is the worst.  :D

I just put all my bows thru the chronograph this week . Shot a 413 grain Gold tip 35-55 arrow thru all . All shot 175 to 182 Feet per second . One Widow , 3 Hummingbirds and one Croe Creek . Found out bamaoo inside and outside of limbs shot like 4 pounds more draw weight .
Nothing scientific . Some had different silencers and draw weight svaried by 4 pounds . 49 pound Widow recurve shot same as 49# Hummingbird 3 piece longbow . That surprised me .
Read where a guy shot 202 FPS out of a bow like mine . Did the math , his arrow was 6.5 grains per pound . Scary . Roy

I got a chrono a while back, shot my recurve #55 thru it with 525 grain arrows, and then did the same with my 53# longbow, One went thru on the average 162 fps the longbow was 151 fps.

After reading all the fast posts here I thought I would be higher, but I havent killed it yet, and I even tested it with an AR 15 and it went 3041FPS. My bows still bring home the meat. Both pork and venison.

I agree with the clean release guys here.

Comparing bows in the same weight range and gpp means nothing unless you consider the strings, silencers and draw length.  IMHO, a chronograph is a nice tool that let's you quantitate how changes to your bow effect its performance.

No, don't feel the need, and wouldn't care about the results anyway.

Having a chrono for me has been a great learning tool. Being able to quantify what changes in my setup do to performance help me get a better idea of all the variables that come together for the shot. It is also a great tool to develop consistency in one's form. If you shoot the same fps for each shot, this is a good thing, and can only lead to better accuracy. That one bow may be faster than the other is not nearly as important. Dave

I know I cant wait to chrony my new ACS CX

Amen to George! I sold my Chrony a long time ago. What counts the most in a hunting situation is Shot Placement!!

I like a chrono as a training aide.  From time to time I need something to get me back on track.  When my shots are consistent [I strive for 5fps between shots] it means I have settled in.

MAP

Doc Pain....its' all good partner.  I have seen people agonizing over their buddies bow outshooting theirs; to the point of them selling their bow.  
As Tigger would say, "it's ridicurous!"    :bigsmyl:

My Chrony has one purpose, tweaking on the bows I build. If I can get free horsepower,I'm gonna take it.....  ;)

I'm with Mike Most on this one.  My 53# longbow shoots 9GPP arrows at a blistering 161, with my 27" draw.  10-11 gpp arrows go in the low 150's.  Speed can be a good thing, if coupled with accuracy.  I also watched some wheelie guys at the local shop shoot through different parts of the chrono and get 20-30 fps different results.  They only stopped when they finally got it to say 300.  Heck, I'd be tickled pink if any bow I shot was to hit 180.

You can fool a chrony sometimes too. I have a buddy shooting a BBO that can pluck his release a certain way and I have seen it register 320fps.
Several times I has seen him do it and get 240-250 out of it. When he shoots it right he is getting around 150-155 with cedar arrows.

I have shot many different bows thru the machine. I have tried them with different strings, different silencers, brace heights etc.
Yes, you can get a few extra feet per second by making a few changes. But, it results in very little difference in how they shoot (hitting the target).
If you have any shooting flaws,the faster bows are often harder to be more accurate with.
If you have very good form, great release, a faster bow may help. But if you are like most of us, with flaws, speed will not help.
One more point, in spite of what you may read or hear, most bows are slower than you would expect.

i found a chrono to be very handy when working up arrows for water buffulo. it's nice to know what arrow mass is yielding the most momentum.

I use one to try and give answers to those that ask about my recurves.Seems most people want to know.My personal set up is 52# @ 31" 64" Safari Elite.AD shaft 530grns. 178fps.

I use to perform complete measurements (draw curve, stored energy, kinetic energy and mechanical efficiency) of the bows that I can have in hand, I don't use a shooting machine ('cause I don't have one when I hunt !!)I'm quite regular on the draw length (2 or 3 fps difference in a serie of 5)

Here is the list of what I have in stock,I have to find a mean to share the excel files :
Blacktail
Recurve Elite Take Down 60" 63# à 28"
Recurve Elite Take Down 62" 54# à 28"
Recurve Elite 62" 60# à 28"

Black Widow
Recurve TFV 58" 63# à 27"

Border
Recurve Black Douglas Take Down XP30 60" 58# à 28"
Recurve Black Douglas Take Down HEX IV 62" 55# à 28"

Bob Lee
Recurve Hunter Elite 60" 55# à 28"

Canale
Recurve custom 56" 58# à 28"

Cascade
Recurve Golden Hawk Magnum Take Down 52" 58# à 28"

Checkmate
Recurve Raven 52" 60# à 28"

Fox
Recurve Maverick 58" 58# à 28"

Great Plain
Recurve Type B 60" 55# à 28"
Recurve Swift Take Down 60" 55# à 28"

Hunter's Niche (Predator)
Recurve custom classic Take Down 60" 58# à 28"

Phoebus
Longbow Blackfeet 64" 62# à 28"
Longbow Blackfeet 63" 59# à 31"
Recurve Lonewolf 63" 57# à 29"

Robertson
Recurve Peregrine Take Down (charnière) 60" 59# à 27"
Recurve Falcon Take Down 60" 62# à 28"
Recurve Tribal Styk 60" 54# à 28"

Samick
Recurve Big Horn Take Down 62" 50# à 28"

Sullivan
Recurve Stealth Take Down 60" 55# à 28"

Mike ballanger @ 7 Lakes --archery built me a short knight r/d longbow  58" @ 51# .I'm doing 182 fps.It doesn't sound like much until you notice that my draw is 26.5 and I am pulling 46 lbs!-Arrows are 2013 with 125 points cut to 27.25"--The chrono was dead on and checked against other known speeds.

i used to try several times with the chrono of a friend, but i'm sure the way i shoot with tne chrono is completly different with my hunting shooting when the target is alive ... so i just now put more weight in front !!!

The crony is great when you use it right.Using one expecting to get someone elses numbers on a certain bow is wrong.Too many can shoot the same bow and have a big difference in how fast the arrows are moveing.It is best used for getting YOUR numbers for the way YOU shoot.No disapointments that way and you can see what differences little changes make.

I can quote numbers from different bows all day but none should mean anything to the next person.Unless everything is shot with a machine or at least by the same person numbers mean little.I can tell you every bow I own will shoot over 200fps if I want it to and I only draw about 27" all stretched out.They all can be made to shoot slow as well.Those numbers mean nothing to anyone but myself and my own comparisons on bows I build or shoot.When someone shoots through a crony and expects to get 193fps from a BW just because someone else did in another thread or you read about it in a bow test somewhere you can expect to be disapointed because it seldom will happen.Cronys are great tools but should be used as such for your own comparisons or tuneing aids.Not to try and keep up with the next guy.  ;)   jmho

QuoteOriginally posted by George D. Stout:
pavan, the last bow I chronographed was Bear Takedown, 65# with a 1718 Graphlex arrow, shot 196fps average

Gawd, just reading the word "Graphlex" made me break out in a cold sweat.  I had one of them blow up on release from a compound in the early 80's.  When the arrow blew, so did the bow.  It was an interesting trip to the ER....  :eek:

I would love to chrono some of my hunting bows just for the heck of it.

Funny thing is that one of my favorite bows to shoot is by far the slowest i own.

Going back to George's first post, I'd like to talk about a couple of things.  First, I also owned a Jennings Arrow Star.  I also owned a T-Star hunter.  Both were good wheel bows.  Top of the line at that time.  The arrow star was so heavy that you needed a wheelbarrow to get it around in the woods. I found my chrono results to match your friends.  At that time, I shot a lot of bow leagues, both compound and traditional. I'm glad that you mentioned the Bear takedown.  This brings another good point about performance as far as speed goes.  Even with carbon and fast flight, we've changed very little in the performance of a traditional bow in the last 30 yearsas far as speed is concerned when we look at the arrow speed from your old bear takedown.  The reason that I bring this up is that in any archery write ups from the trad archery magazines on a manufacturers bow, they all include a graph page of the force draw curve and arrow speed which basically is all the same for each bow bow tested.  Now, my question is, do you think this is important or not and would it influence your purchase of a bow?

One nice thing about using a chrono, regardless of the numbers on the screen, it seeing how consistent you are. If you are seeing wide number swings you instantly know that your form/anchor point is off.

outdooru....you are exactly correct. The machine will show you how good your release is or is not.You can see a good release and a bad release and the shots may vary 8-10 feet per second.
As a former dealer, my experience saw that many peoples' purchase decisions are influenced by the "proclaimed" speed of the bow.
Many trad guys came over from the compound side where speed was king. The need for speed came with most of them.
When guys came into the shop with a new/used bow talking about how fast they were, we would shoot the machine. Nearly everyone shot slower than expected or claimed.
Nothing beats having the correct spine arrow and good shooting form.
I am not looking to start debate, but I will say that at 28" draw, 9 gr/lb, fingers release, most bows shoot about 175-185 or so. I have seen speeds of over 200 using light arrows, 6-7 gr/lb.

speed is important to me. Why would I shoot a 55 pound bow when I can tune a 50 pound setup to shoot as fast or faster than your 55 pound?  Nobody can honestly claim they can be more accurate with more draw weight.

Now archers, once we enter into the equation the weight of arrows and their speed then we get into the realm of kinetic energy.  Which by the way, our experts ideas are about as outdated as the body mass index is when refering to obesity.

My experience (admittedly limited) agrees with Cherokee Scout. I got a chronograph for Xmas and used it to test most of my bow with various arrow setups. with a 28# draw and about 9 gpp and finger release I saw speeds in the 170-185 fps range. My release, and my consistency in draw length made more impact than the specific bow. It was a fun learning experience, and increased my motivation to become very consistent with my draw and release.

James on laptop, I'm with you. I use the chrono to evaluate my equipment and setup to myself.  After all isn't that what truly matters.  Nothing pleases me more than seeing the dup on the screen fo my chrono as that means that I am consistant in what I am doing.  Still, I always get a chuckle when a friend comes over and starts talking about a bow from maker x or y and the speed of the bow and then watch their jaws drop when the numbers come up on the screen.

I have never shot a bow through a Chrono before I bought it.  IMHO it is much more valueable to get in front of a big target that you can't miss, close your eyes, and feel the bow you are shooting.  Shoot it several times, if you like what you feel, then step back to 20 yards and shoot it a while and see if it hits how you like.

There have been several bow that don't make it past the first draw. Eyes closed, draw, YUCK! back to the shelf to try another...

I like the information you can get from the chrono. on changes you make on equipment to see how it affects the bows performance, brush buttons, silencers, tip protectors, fletching size and shape etc. Also shows the changes in your form and release loads of information not just speed. I still shoot the bows I want to  reguardless of speed, I like the information you can get from it's use. It is just a tool. Hitting the target is primary, how fast you miss the target is of no importance. IMHO    :thumbsup:

I have used a chrono off and on for a number of years, and yes, when I first got it I was amazed at how slow my arrows were traveling.  I do agree with those who use it as a tool for checking set-ups, checking consistency of release, etc.  I long ago figured out that my 27" draw length and 12 gpp arrows were not about speed. One thing that I found to be a revelation back then, though, was that a lighter bow that allowed full draw was as fast or faster than one with 5 lbs more draw weight, even with the same weight arrow.  I found that I was much better off shooting a bow that I could comfortably get to full draw than one that I struggled with and short drew most of the time. Most of my bows (52-55 lb) shoot a 650 grain arrow around 150 fps. and that works for me - very stable and I'm used to the trajectory.

Question. How accurate is one chronograph to another? I have only had two experiences with them.  The one time, with someone else shooting my bow and my arrow, they scare me a bit since I hit one the first time I tried years ago it gave crazy high speeds,202, with my 42 lb. target BW, and more recently with my 64lb. @ 26" Schulz Legend bamboo fiberglass even higher numbers, not sure I believe the number, with a cedar arrow 27" bop with 5.5" feathers and 160 grain field tip.

The light conditions seem to effect how they read. I  am not sure of this but I have seen evidence that if you shoot lower in the "V" the speeds seem higher. If you shoot too low, you can hit and destroy the machine! I try to shoot in the middle of the "V" to be consistent and safe.
You do get a whacky reading from time to time. I have seen a chrono read 350 or so from a trad bow.It was obviously some type of error in reading.

They are closer than most peoples release. :)  

You have to have correct lighting for best results.If you shoot near the edges of the screens the numbers can be off.It is a simple matter to shoot the middle and throw out any numbers you know are way off base.Some feild points do not read well so blunts will give the most realiable results.If you get erratic numbers you know it is the lighting that is the cause so move the crony if outside or make sure of your overhead light if inside.They are pretty idiot proof if you just get the lights right. :)

I did a search to read what others have written about chronographs. I was thinking I might like to play with one.

I learned about 30 years ago, when I didn't have enough money to develop an alcohol problem, that I probably have a tendancy towards addicition, so I stopped all drinking way  back then. (2 beers and I had a buzz so you know I was a very undeveloped drinker!).  

Knowing that about myself I fear if I chronoed my most beloved bows and found out they were too slow (whatever that is) I might not like the bow anymore.  All my bows "feel" fast and they shoot good when I focus on follow-through. Guess I'll leave it at that.

I have chrono'd(I own one) my bow and I am pleased with it's results with the use of a heavy arrow and a short draw length. My results are in my signature below.    :)      :thumbsup:

I have used a chrono several times and was surprised both ways. I had one bow that was about 10 fps slower than I thought it was shooting. I have had others that were 5-10 fps faster than I thought the bow was shooting. I had a friend who was shooting with me one day. He said he ran his through the chrono before I got there. And it  was slower than I told him my bow was shooting. We have the same bow he ordered one after I let him shoot mine. I shot his bow and mine thru the chrono with my arrows and my bow was about 4 fps faster. But my bow is almost 3#'s heavier on the scale. Anyway chrono's don't always tell the story I shot his bow about 5-7 fps faster than he did. Not sure if his release was a little off or he was short drawing the bow. If it hits where you want it don't worry about it. The slow bow that I have is a great shooter and quiet.

I use my chrono as part of my form check. A chrono is a good tool to use if you want to know how consistent your release is....the more consistent your speed the more consistent your anchor and release.

I took my 3 recurves,and Big Jims Buffalo bow up to a busy modern archery shop one day to do a lil test and horified the herd of modern archers that were there .It was fun.I was surprized at how little difference in the speeds there were between a50#@28 ,a60#@28,and a65#@28 reurves with the same 600 grain arrow.Release was a factor ,but shot and shot and was consistant.I pull them all 29.25.Fun to play around with.I also use to shoot a league deal with some modern guy called"Technohunt",were you shoot animals on a screen.It was great fun and they let me, a trad guy in.The thing, after you shot would give you your arrow speed and score.Their speeds would be the same everytime and they would roar and watchers would too as mine would rally around all over the place.It was too funny.My 2 cents,Thanks.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bowwild:
I fear if I chronoed my most beloved bows and found out they were too slow (whatever that is) I might not like the bow anymore.  All my bows "feel" fast and they shoot good when I focus on follow-through. Guess I'll leave it at that.

Perfectly stated.

I would imagine that to a bowyer they are a very useful tool.

Chrono is a great tool for form, as Coaster said, and to optimize your own set up. If I can get better performance from the same bow and same arrow something is being accomplished-like a more dynamic release. Comparing your speed to someone else's speed is a  waste of time.  JMHO

Here is the deal on fast shooters. If you build them you use a chrono as you proto a design. You set up a simple shooting machine with a release. I test with 10 gpp. Make changes (one at atime and see the effects on speed-shootability-stability etc.You settle somewhere in the middle on a design that gives the best speed and the other characteristics for good behavior.
Granted speed aint but if you can get it a good behavior thats a plus.

I've always chrono checked my setups. Been doing this for 25 years or so. I find it interesting. I also think it is meaningless if you like your current setup but worry about slow arrow speed.

Any arrow over 120fps or so it fine for whitetail deer. That said, I would not own a bow that cannot reach at least 200fps with light carbon arrows. Luckily, they all do. Flat trajectory is intoxicating.

Jack

I own one...and I have used it for many things.

1. Comparing different bow designs
2. Comparing different arrow weights vs velocity
3. To work on form
4. To check variation in speed relative to brace height, and
4. To compare different string materials and strand count. I did a lot of testing with strings

I know there are several out there that claim they got an extra 5-10 fps by doing this or that...as as someone above mentioned, I like to pull out the chrono and say "I would like to see that." What happens next is they person usually says something like, "Well, I haven't actually chronographed it, but I can tell my arrow is faster and hits harder."

In my own testing dacron vs dynaflight, the dynaflight is 6-8 fps faster in most cases (some more or less, but not by much). And, my experience has also shown that going from a low stand count to "typical" strand size doesn't give anywhere near the change in speed many claim it to be despite it "hitting the target harder" as is often said. The chronograph takes the subjective non-sense out of claims for objective people that prefer to be more "scientific." KE and momentum both are both just physics...and both are directly dependent upon speed and mass.

That said, there is nothing wrong with speed IMO as long as the bow is still stable, durable, and quiet. That said, I certainly designed my bow to be as fast as I knew how to make it while also striving to maintain other highly desired characteristics. Speed is great, but it isn't the only thing that matters.

I'm with ya, Lee, I agree. Well said.

Why chrono one at all a fast trad bow is only 10 to 15 fps faster than a slow one. It could be hundreds of dollars more expensive though.

If you want speed get a compound. A slow hit is better than a fast miss anyday.LCH

LCH, just food for thought, but you know in some cases a slow bow can also be hundreds of dollar more expensive than a fast one. Design is what determines performance, not price.

I like being able to see what changes in set up mean to performance, for example a heavier arrow does  not seem to slow the set up down that much and a heavier bow doesn't add that much speed, good things to know, enjoy tinkering with things.

QuoteOriginally posted by LCH:
Why chrono one at all a fast trad bow is only 10 to 15 fps faster than a slow one. It could be hundreds of dollars more expensive though.

If you want speed get a compound. A slow hit is better than a fast miss anyday.LCH

:dunno:

Nothing wrong with a slow trad bow, but there's nothing wrong with a high performance one either.
  ;)

Doug, it seems you and I think alike (at least on this topic anyway).   :thumbsup:

Yes Lee, my thoughts as well.

BTW, you make a fine looking bow!